to prostitution. The average age that people start being prostitutes is way under the legal age of consent. Some are brought into prostitution at age 13 and even younger, and forced to engage in sex with men. Prostitution may be OK for adult women who choose to become prostitutes. I don't know. I don't use prostitutes. But, prostitution as it actually is in the cities of our country, where young girls are forced into it, sucks. It sucks big time.

I won't condone it in any way, due to that demonstrable fact.

There are adult prostitutes who are free to do as they will. It's my guess that they are in the minority.
Children need protection from being raped because that is exactly what it is.

in every large city. It's because men will pay to have sex with these children. That is a shame on this country. A real shame.

The pimps also need to be charged with contributing to the rape of a minor.

A child cannot consent ... underage prostitution is rape.

When caught, there is punishment. But...prostitution is basically left alone in most cities, unless it's blatantly visible. Even when underaged children are the prostitutes. That's how it is in most cities.

the crimes you are discussing here are not prostitution

You apparently did not read my post. I never said any such thing. You know who should go to jail? The pimp that beat her up. He's going to go to jail. I'd add any men who paid to have sex with her or anyone like her. They should go to jail for raping a child.

The girl? She should go to a loving foster family who have an understanding of the shit she's been through. That should be paid for with my tax dollars. I live in St. Paul. She should be cared for, helped in any way possible, and helped to have a normal life.

You appear not to even understand what I'm talking about, so I won't engage with you further in this thread.

but the crimes in your thread have nothing to do with that

Prostitution could still be legal and everything in this story would still be a crime

legalizing prostitution would not change that

the crimes being described are the direct result of prostituting this girl. She is a minor. She cannot legally give consent. Therefore, she is a victim. Why would ask if she should go to jail?

One should expect nothing less. If you're not rich your only value is as cheap labor or profit for the legal system.

Texas isn't the only place that's done it.

I've lived there. I know wherefore I speak. How many other places that you know of has this happened?

http://gawker.com/texas-says-its-ok-to-shoot-an-escort-if-she-wont-have-511636423

as it mentions further into the article. That's why I recommended that you read the article.

I don't comment on articles I haven't read.

the article also talked about New York and Georgia, so why did you focus only on Texas?

Your comment:

I know how easy it is to go to jail there, even to be executed there. That's why.

Agreed, Texas law is a mess.

For example, prostitution is de-facto legal in the UK.

Anti-prostitution forces spent years agitating against that, claiming there were tons of underage prostitutes, and tons of women being forced into prostitution. Their claims kept escalating over the years - the numbers of such women kept going up each time the claim was made.

So the UK authorities decided to do something about it. They interviewed thousands and thousands and thousands of prostitutes. They offered UK women protection from abusers, and foreign prostitutes were offered a free flight home.

2 foreign women took them up on the deal. 0 UK women did. A small handful of underage prostitutes were found (somewhere around 5, IIRC).

While I think very few women would grow up dreaming of being a prostitute, legal prostitution doesn't seem to cause the problems you fear.

an adult who decides to do this on their own is of a course a completely different thing. Saying that because this child was forced into it that no one should be able to do it legally is ridiculous.

I'm pointing out to people who think that prostitution, in general, is OK. Since stories like that of this 15-year-old are common as dirt, I'm afraid that I don't think that prostitution, in general, is OK at all.

Your opinion might differ from mine. That's your thing, not mine.

"profession" as minors or as a source of income for drug habits or because they had little education or marketable skills beyond sex and no support system to assist them in making other choices? Prostitution remains for me an exploitive and destructive force in society.

turning tricks because it's a nice way to make a living are just completely and transparently kidding themselves. I keep thinking they can't be serious but it seems they are.

We're not talking about people deciding between corporate lawyer, doctor, or prostitute. We're talking about people deciding between part-time at Wal-Mart and prostitute.

Some people will decide it's better than the crappy alternatives.

It's a deadly, violent life that uses you up and spits you out. The vast majority of those girls are not in it because they'd rather not work at WalMart.

But we're talking about making prostitution legal. So we should be looking at the careers of prostitutes where it is legal.

And in countries where prostitution is legal, it's not the hellhole you describe. Oh sure, anti-prostitution people keep claiming it is, but programs that offer to help women leave the profession don't have a lot of takers in countries where prostitution is legal.

Cause it's prostitution.

You're kidding yourself.

Shouldn't we trust their opinions on the subject?

Women who willingly turn to prostitution where it's legal pretty much universally describe it as "better than their alternatives". Which is far from a ringing endorsement, but also far from "hellhole".

But that would require something more than just your opinion on the subject.

data on the subject of legal prostitution. It's not a monolithic system. Different countries have very different ways of handling legalized hooking. So, I don't think you should make sweeping generalizations about it. Prostitution is legal in Nevada and Mexico. That's close to home. Why not go give it a twirl and let us know what you think.

living in poverty would willingly partake.

legalize it, regulate it, tax it. Brothels in Nevada are heavily regulated and taxed and the girls who work in the profession have to have medical checkups once a month to check for STD's.
Only 2 counties outlaw Brothels, Clark County and Washoe County.

I remember a few years back, Sen. Reid suggested that NV. needed to ban legalized prostitution, set off quite a firestorm here.

If you think there aren't underaged prostitutes in Las Vegas, you probably think you can win at the slot machines in that city. Sorry, but making prostitution legal will not stop the demand for underaged girls as prostitutes.

but it might help alleviate some of the problem, even if it's just a little bit.

get some traffic, but nothing like the illegal prostitution in the city. Make a call to one of the numbers on the flyers handed out by people everywhere on the strip in Las Vegas and a prostitute will come to your hotel room very quickly. Be sure to say no when they ask if you are a law enforcement officer, though, or you won't get a prostitute.

Want a young one? Just ask. Don't ask the age. Just ask for a young one. They'll be happy to oblige.

Because they're regulated. You have to be licensed to work legally. You're making a very good argument for legalization.

Mayor Goodman proposed legalization in Clark County a few years back, which would have done much the same thing inside the city instead of putting it an hour's drive away, a dangerous idea when you're serving free alcohol. It went over like a lead balloon. Legalization drives the price up, and I suspect a lot of people prefer to run the usual risks rather than have the price rise 100%+ to what the brothels charge.

I keep hearing that legalizing it will make the "dark side" of prostitution go away... the drugs, the addictions, the child prostitution and porn, the sex slavery, trafficking... poof! Gone! As soon as prostitution is legalized the other shit disappears.

So I ask you, how would legalizing it have stopped the sex slavery and child prostitution of the 15 year old in the OP?

underaged girls for sex. Lots of men. It's what they do.

... and make them easier to catch. Those who don't want underage women in today's environment where it is all illegal often times might not even know when they have an underage prostitute they are soliciting. That kind of arrangement would stop if prostitution were legalized and regulated.

I think the vast majority of men wouldn't want this kind of situation even if they wanted a prostitute, and would be empowered to avoid them... Perhaps some of them might even help police find criminals like this if they witness it from a distance.

That doesn't make sense to me. How would it isolate them?

As far as "regulating" prostitutes, what do you mean by that? Do you think prostitutes should be registered somewhere in a public database?

who are involved with underage prostitution, rather than spending their time busting prostitutes (and their customers) who are consenting adults.

Licensing and/or registration is required before one may legally work in many, many trades and professions. Perhaps that is the kind of "regulation" the poster is talking about.

Law enforcement currently has to deal with prostitutes of all stripes. It's very difficult for them to determine who are there willingly and not, so they're all arrested with zero prioritizing. If prostitution were legal, many prostitutes would have legal avenues for making money, police wouldn't need to worry about them at all. They could instead put all their time and resources toward protecting those who are not in the business willingly.

Blatant streetwalking is about the only prostitution that is bothered with by police. The stuff that goes on via phone calls to "outcall" services doesn't even get investigated in most cases.

There aren't a lot of resources expended on prostitution in most cities. They bust a few street prostitutes and call that good.

non-consensual kind. Consenting adults get more freedom, more resources toward fighting the actual bad portion of prostitution. Seems like a win-win to me.

for things not related to prostitution at all. I don't believe those resources would be diverted to underaged prostitution at all. There's no money in that. Just give some more tickets to speeders. That makes money. Prostitution is a no-win proposition for law enforcement. It costs a lot and doesn't produce anything. Society doesn't care about those underaged prostitutes anyhow, you see.

I don't. Regardless, if there's no benefit to keeping prostitution illegal and it takes away freedom from consenting adults, then it's a net harm to society. I'd think that the first step in harm reduction would be to legalize prostitution so a more clear line could be drawn between the acceptable and unacceptable kinds. I'd think that if prostitution were legal, more "Johns" would choose legal prostitution rather than an underage child simply because there's so much less risk involved with the legal kind. When it's illegal, they're less likely to care as they'd be breaking the law either way.

It's not my thing. In fact, if I knew that someone was a regular user of prostitutes, that would be the end of my dealings with that person. I don't know anyone like that, though.

Your dislike of "Johns" really has no bearing on the conversation. One thing that's pretty much universal behavior is that people generally don't want to break the law if they don't have to. So if we're speaking of harm reduction, it's pretty clear that legalization is the way to achieve that.

it still doesn't explain why resources should continue to be expended for adult consensual activities. That approach has literaly been tried for hundreds, if not thousands of years with predictable results.

The idea that resources freed would be automatically applied to other activities is not true at all. At all levels of government, money can and is earmarked for specific purposes which can and is tied to results. The assumption that this can't happen is certainly not in line with progressive ideology.

That's a tiny number and doesn't seem to substantiate your claim that it would free up "quite a bit of resources".

That number includes New York City (I just googled for NY's crime stats).

http://prostitution.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000120

Do you have a source that indicates that if the police DIDN'T go after prostitutes that money would be directed towards sex slavery, trafficking and child prostitution prosecutions?

Because in my experience, that cash will be sucked into other areas instead of being directed into what YOU may think it should go towards.

Do you have a source that indicates that if the police DIDN'T go after legal prostitutes that less money would be directed toward the illegal kind? No? Then it sure as hell makes ZERO sense to go after those who are actually consenting. Because PDs wasting less money is never a bad thing. It is utter idiocy to spend money on consensual acts when there is so much going on that's not consensual out there. If prostitution is legalized, the ones who are forced into it actually have some recourse, rather than being too terrified to contact authorities for fear of being arrested. Prohibition in this case is totally harmful to society.

and furthermore, stipulated that it would be used to go after trafficking, sex slavery and child prostitution.

You don't appear to have any backup for that claim.

My point was that 783 arrests out of something close to 8.5 million people in NY indicates that the PD isn't making a big deal out of prostitution already. I'm quite sure there are more than 783 prostitutes in NY City alone.

I'd be happy to listen to any substantiation you have for your point.

I will say for the record however that I don't believe prostitutes should be arrested or prosecuted but I don't have rose colored glasses on believing that if that tiny percentage of people are suddenly NOT arrested that the resources will then be directed towards HELPING victims elsewhere.

They rarely do anything about the men without whom the profession wouldn't even exist. Their patronage is the only reason that keeps it going. There wouldn't be a supply if there weren't a demand. But, the women, and sometimes men, that make up the profession, always get society's censure. John Q. shakes his dick off and goes back home to wifey, no prob. I was activated for training at Ft. Sam back in the 90s and like many bases, it had a red light district. This one stretched along Grayson and Broadway close to Brackenridge Park. I was rooming close by with another single mom from my unit and we'd see cops harassing the girls all the time. Hell, when we'd be in the launder mat and would walk to the convenience store, they'd harass us. But, they'd watch guys driving back and forth, stopping to talk to girls on the sidewalk and in parking lots and not do a thing.

I didn't really think it through. As long as there is a market for underage prostitutes, there will always be someone to provide the children, as despicable as it is.

Let's say you happen to decide to visit a house of ill repute. As you are leaving, you find out they have a 15-year-old working there.

If prostitution is legal, there's little impediment to you reporting the underage prostitute to the police.
If prostitution is illegal, you have to decide to risk your own arrest in order to report the underage prostitute.

So while no one can guarantee it would stop a situation like the OP, it would make it easier for authorities to find that situation.

You can report 24/7 and never risk being arrested.

From national agencies like WeTip and Crimestoppers to your local PD's own hotlines - there are many avenues to report child prostitution.

In comparison, countries that have legal prostitution have found a very low rate of underage prostitution.

Obviously, there's enough evil in the world that you'll never get to zero. But as an example, the UK's sweep in 2002(?) found 5 underage prostitutes out of many thousands.

I will quibble with a couple things: sex slavery isn't just for minors. Child prostitution CAN overlap with sex slavery but its a different problem. Trafficking is a whole other set of problems as well. You seem to conflate all of those in your final paragraph.

I don't think making it legal will make one whit of difference in reporting or not. Prostitutes usually have a lot of problems like addictions and psychological issues compounding their situation. FWIW, I support legalization but for different reasons than you but I don't think it helps to issue blanket statements like trafficking, sex slavery and child prostitution will go away just because prostitution is legal. I just think prostitutes need help and prison is not the place for that help. Furthermore I think our for-profit prison system would drool to get its hands on more non-violent offenders like prostitutes to fill their beds.

Slavery is about control and power, and isn't about money at all in my experience.

Child prostitution is about people who get off on fucking children. Legalizing prostitution isn't going to stop predators from craving that shit at any price. Its going on underground regardless. If an adult prostitute isn't willing to rat out someone whose pimping out a child now, even via an anonymous tipline, I just don't buy that a legal status will suddenly make them willing to get involved.

There are few reliable statistics on prostitution of minors. What scientifically credible statistics there are contradict all widely-held beliefs about it.

(Disclosure: the publisher of that article is the same company that then owned backpage.com. At the same time, they didn't fund the study, the government did, they didn't misrepresent it.)

And here's a current news story that supports what that article says, a case of a minor getting herself into prostitution "for extra money." Unfortunately, they're throwing the book at her, and at least as far as the trafficking charge, it's bullshit.

(Also notice in that story, a guy who made an appointment declined to have sex with them. It may be because he saw they were underage. So much for stereotypes of prostitutes clients.)

I didn't conflate child prostitution, slavery and trafficking. The original story was a case included all three so I continued in that vein.

"Prostitutes usually have a lot of problems like addictions and psychological issues compounding their situation."

Stereotyping a bit? It's actually more like the other way around; addicts have a lot of problems with prostitution. The majority of the people who shouldn't be in the sex industry go into it because of addiction. They're addicts first, who are too crippled to work a 9 to 5, and who can't afford their illness any other way.

For others, the main psychological issue they have is nothing else they're qualified for pays nearly as well. Most aren't there because they're damaged. Most are there because casual sex doesn't bother them, morally or otherwise. If you have no objection to casual sex, if can even get some pleasure from it, and if the pay is good, why wouldn't you have sex for money? Usually, it's that simple.

"Slavery is about control and power, and isn't about money at all in my experience."

It seems to me the Confederacy went through a lot of trouble for what your saying is essentially a fetish, then. How does your theory work with non-sexual slavery?

Another question is, if sex slavers pimp prostitutes for entertainment, what do they do to put food on the table? Maybe what you see is a manifestation of power (I don't know what you cite as "experience&quot , but the displays of power would dissolve if the economic motivation weren't there. The money is not merely a side-effect to the show of power. The show of power is necessary for the money.

"Child prostitution is about people who get off on fucking children. Legalizing prostitution isn't going to stop predators from craving that shit at any price. Its going on underground regardless."

Fortunately, there are not many pedophiles, and not many people whose sexuality even bends in that direction. The way you stop it is to find and stop the minority who may desire underage prostitutes.

However, even then, you will have cases of it. Simply because the people entering or being forced into it don't know how poor the market is.

"If an adult prostitute isn't willing to rat out someone whose pimping out a child now, even via an anonymous tipline, I just don't buy that a legal status will suddenly make them willing to get involved."

Actually, I know of a prostitute who turned in her client for having child porn on his computer. She initiated the contact with police, so it's not like she ratted on him to save herself. So, I know you are completely, absolutely wrong about this.

However, the way stats are kept on trafficking and child prostitution, it's going to be impossible to tell if legalization helps. If there is any of it, that will be cited as evidence that it didn't help.

You shift the profit motive by creating legitimate businesses. If people can make money legally and out in the open, then they won't go near the ugly stuff. See legal brothels in NV.

I haven't made any statements about how many child prostitutes there are in NV.

Do you have stats that child prostitution has been reduced in NV where prostitution is legal? is it suddenly eradicated there? No sex slaves in NV or trafficking?

in a very, very long time. And the brothels are routinely inspected by the authorities, so hiding an underage prostitute is not a simple undertaking. Nor have women come forth claiming they were forced into prostitution.

I don't have stats handy for areas of NV where prostitution is illegal. But that's not really all that relevant.

There are a LOT of links to child prostitution arrests, and that's just one country!

http://www.newser.com/story/10232/voodoo-child-smugglers-busted-in-netherlands.html

This is a link to just the first one that came up in the search - even more horrific as its child sex trafficking too.

I included NV because it seems inconceivable that that state has not had any child prostitution arrests...

So your rebuttal is demonstrably false, since you suddenly changed to the Netherlands when your google turned up nothing in legal brothels in Nevada.

That wasn't limited to NV. I didn't even do a specific search for NV.

YOU appear to be stipulating that there's no child prostitution in NV (or the Netherlands or anywhere else adult prostitution is legal) because now that adult prostitution is legal there's no demand.

I disagreed with you. I cited a source (one of many that you can google yourself) and made my case.

Now you can show me I'm wrong. You made the statement. I don't buy it.

People who are into child porn/prostitution are usually not persuaded if/when adult porn/prostitution is legal. They have a specific fetish.

If you have stats to prove that child porn/prostitution is reduced by the legalization of adult porn/prostitution I'm all ears. Or sex slavery. Or trafficking etc.

Anywhere.

Globally.

All porn companies are required to get documented proof of age, and those records are kept on file. That's the benefit of making porn legal. You can make a legitimate profit.

because porn is legal.



Its the same faulty argument as jeff who wants to state that child prostitution is now reduced in places where adult prostitution is legal.

There's no basis in fact for those statements and in the case of child prostitution they are demonstrably false.

Wishing it were so doesn't make it so unless you can provide some hard stats to back up your position imo. I simply don't believe it. People who crave child porn or child prostitutes aren't going to suddenly stop wanting that shit because adult prostitution/porn is now suddenly legal. It doesn't work that way.

The state law that legalizes it only makes it legal if the county population is below a particular threshold.

The counties that contain Nevada's large cities have a large enough population to make prostitution illegal.

This is why you are generally pustules of evil only slightly less toxic than pimps.

pay for sex. They're completely wrong about that. The vast majority of men have never paid for sex with a prostitute. People who think otherwise hang around with the wrong men, I think. Most men don't pay for sex. Those who do often seek out the youngest of prostitutes. They are the most popular version of prostitutes. That drives this shameful trade.

transaction where the woman has the power to say no, etc.

experience of meeting, getting to know, and being the kind of guy a woman wants to have sex with. They want to pay their money, have sex with someone, and go away. There's not a lot of compassion in such a transaction. They just want sex, and they want it the way they want it, when they want it, and with no strings attached.

In far too many cases, they also want to have sex with very young women...girls even. It's their thing, and the market supplies their needs. It's shameful that this is allowed to go on.

the one whose only friends are johns?

I've seen many posts over the years from people who've said they have paid for sex with prostitutes. I've also seen people who advocate for legalization of prostitution. I'm talking to them all. This 15 year old girl was not a rare case. Underaged prostitution is big business, it seems.

and were lying if they did.

nt

Do they enjoy picking vegetables?

so I don't get it.

but I honestly stopped buying produce except from a local organic coop a while back.

Some people think posting petulant irrelevancies masquerading as a point is clever. Nonetheless, there are people who are beaten by the irrelevant and enslaved by petulance.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other... and both full of idiocies. Yet I imagine one will be rationalized. Good luck!

in Minneapolis the cops kind of backed off busting sauna's and massage parlors after on such bust netted along with the women a bunch of wait for it.......6th precinct police officers who were there ah 'undercover'

type of person who contributes to the base exploitation of another human being, and who are staunchly defending the idea that lots of prostitutes are in it for the opportunity, and prostitute's lives would be fine if we only would legalize prostitution:

That prostitute didn't have sex with you because she wanted to. She's not in that job because she wants to be. You have contributed to the base exploitation of another human being.

persons, among the highest in the US, according to James Stewart, Professor Emeritus at Macalester runs a group called Historians against Slavery. I found that pretty shocking when I learned it. Maps of modern day slavery vary a great deal though because of its clandestine nature.

People should be aware that there are more slaves now than at any point in human history, including at the height of Atlantic slavery.
http://salisbury-nc.aauw.net/2012/02/19/human-trafficking-modern-day-slavery/

It had that whole "Bowery Boys" kinda sound to it.

First of all there is a difference between what consenting adults do and what a child is compelled to do. Of course, NO ONE condones forcing anyone to engage in sexual activity whether it be an child or an adult. The laws are clear on that. But I have yet to hear any rational reason why anyone can't do with their body or property whatever they wish to do so long as it does not harm the property or other people. So long as all parties involved are able to consent and do, what concern is it of yours or the state for that matter what they engage in?
If you believe that exchanging sex for money or any other consideration is morally wrong, I suggest that YOU not do it. But if someone else does not share that belief, then YOU should mind your own business. I find it ironic that people who argue stridently for the decriminalization of marijuana, become indignant when it's suggested that prostitution should be decriminalized or legalized. ( I'm for the former over the latter) These laws serve only as easy "hush money" from the unfortunate "johns" and female providers who get caught in police sting operations. Rather than to fight these charges, they find it easier to take a plea and pay a fine, despite the fact that the charge is a misdemeanor in the first place. All this amounts to is law enforcement acting as the arm of the church; a clear violation of the separation of church and state. These laws and their enforcement is not only antithetical to freedom they're also counterproductive.

are familiar, I worked in Frogtown. I remember being completely horrified, when a ten year old girl was arrested for solicitation. This is a child I saw numerous times walking up and down University avenue. There is no way those who purchased ten minutes of horrific human slavery did not know her age.

I did my part in collecting the license plate numbers of Johns who picked up the hookers in the area. I had a great spot to watch Johns pick up 'friends' on their lunch hour. Ultimately, the area was cleaned up and I'm proud to have been a small part of that.

On a more related note - why in the F is it legal to advertise what amounts to child slavery on backpage.com?

I don't know why it is allowed to list ads when the age of the person is suspicious.

and City Pages. I know that they moved their sex trade ads out of the paper and onto backpage.com in 2006. The parent company, Village Voice owned backpage.com. I don't know if the ownership is still the same.

I stopped reading City Pages because of it.

I seem to recall hearing that previously. I will join you in protest and ban City Pages from my reading list, also. Perhaps that would be a good avenue for continued activism? Hmmmm.

Keep it illegal, and it remains underground. Where you get shit like sex-slavery, child prostitution, all the horrible stuff.

Legalize and regulate, and you can implement harm reduction. License the brothels, and they can be inspected, and rules can be enforced, such as minimum ages, required testing and protection, minimum wages & other worker protections, systems for reporting and cracking down on abuse, etc. etc. etc.

Nobody's saying prostitution a happy fun place. Just that it can be made to suck less.

will, perforce, remain underground. There is demand, and there will be supply. Legalizing adult prostitution will not change a thing.