I have a healty skepticism of anything the govt. says, especially concerning our intelligence agencies.
Sorry, I just don't believe what the NSA or the Admin. is saying about this phone records data collection.

It clearly outlines what can be gathered (originating and terminating numbers, duration, calling card # and some other ID numbers that I'm not sure what they are because I do not work for a telecom) and what CANNOT be gathered (name, address and financial info of the people). It even cites the relevant law that prevents this from being done.
So if they aren't following the law and are actually wiretapping citizens with no probable cause, why would all these safeguards saying they weren't doing that be documented in a classified warrant? If they're just trying to fool you by saying that they aren't collecting personal information and eavesdropping on your calls, why keep the warrant a secret? Did they just leak it to Greenwald to provide cover for their more clandestine activities?

how do we know that they didn't leak this to Greenwald to cover for more clandestine, maybe illegal, maybe not, activities?
After the numerous revelations of the illegal activities of our intelligence services since the Church hearings in the 70's, I don't believe a word coming out any intelligence service.
And we're supposed to take the word of the Congress, whose approval rating is at a whopping 6%, who the majority of them are nothing more than bought and paid for stooges for the corps., that everything is hunky dory in NSA land?

Somehow, I don't think so.

Because if you really believe he is doing good that conflicts with him just being a government patsy.

Like I said, I wouldn't put it past the NSA or any other agency to do something like this.
This shit can drive one to drink, speaking of which..........

the cases from going to the normal court by using the "state secrets" privilege.

Moreover there are accusations FISA is using an unauthorized interpretation of the expanded FISA law, but again it can't be reviewed because the Admin is trying to keep this all in the FISA court which is an inescapable loop.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/7/4406800/editorial-nsa-surveillance-is-obamas-transparency-problem

Hell, you won't even know there's been a warrant issued because it's "secret". Disgusting.

This is not the America I grew up in.

thanks for pointing that out. Everything's all good now.

They have plenty of domestic terrorism and abuse though.

Admittedly, there is no illegal wiretapping. There may not be any wiretapping at all, but the public does not know that. There is no illegal domestic spying going on. That's because it's (presumably) legal now.

But ...

There definitely is a domestic spying program that is operating in the United States. Nothing you can say will change this fact. This quote from Maedhros makes clear why most of us feel that collecting all this data is, in fact, spying:

Sort of like being followed around by an agent and watched with binoculars all day. No personal information is accessed! No conversations were overheard! They just took note of where you went and to whom you talked.

They weren't spying on you!

The fact that he could sign an EO prohibiting the NSA from collecting phone record data?
He could you know, so, why doesn't he do this and make this whole controversy go away?

... that is an egregious case of the pot calling the kettle black.



-Laelth

"Admittedly, there is no illegal wiretapping. There may not be any wiretapping at all, but the public does not know that. "

There is no wiretapping, period. To then make the second point about public knowledge is to admit that people who claim that there is really have no basis for it. They're just making stuff up.

When people are this naive. Did Obama send you a personal email telling you so???

Good gravey...

Seems like no matter what the facts may say, there are a lot of people here that just can't get it through their heads they are not being wiretapped, the government really isn't watching every move they make, and all the BS that is being spewed about how "everyone" is being watched is simply more right wing BS being put out to try and divide the left, and sadly it seems to be working, at least on DU!

I appreciate your posts, and all the others who have been trying to get the "facts" out to people. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink! Seems like you can show some people the facts, but you can't make them stop believing the worst about things, or from buying into the right wing spin!

Obama owns this mess.

-Laelth

placed at his feet.... Bernie Sanders smartly points out that we can have safety and privacy with FISA Court warrants...

President Obama could change all of this with the stroke of a pen. As President, he controls the executive branch. He could order the NSA to stop collecting all this data on American citizens. All he would have to do is sign the order.

Why he has not done so is the question.

-Laelth

Oops ...

From 12:00 on he discusses electronic surveillance:

It's spying, and those defending it are representing the worst in acquiescence and soulless political calculations. You hit bedrock for anyone who tries to adhere to a moral code, and you haven't yet understood that there's no leeway for bullshit redefinitions when our founding principles are at stake.

With James Coburn.
I won't give away any plot secrets, but it is a great movie.

There was no illegal wiretapping? There were no illegal internments of Japanese Americans, either.

The outrage is not that they are doing anything illegal, it's that they have made the complete erosion of our freedoms perfectly legal. And we are perfectly comfortable in our surrender.

And yes, I am paranoid. In this environment it just makes good sense.

They only acknowledge these things after they get caught. And even then we get disinformation.

If you want universal gun registration what's the matter with collecting information on possible overseas terrorist connections?

We might have something to discuss at that point.

I say "provisionally" just as ProSense might agree with that.

I also stand with the people here who are very concerned about these revelations, although if they claim that they are in any way new, I must disagree. We've known about this stuff for years as has been discussed right here on DU, for years.

But I refuse to jump the shark on this topic, which many here seem to want to do.

No!! I do not support it. Nor do I think ProSense does.

ProSense is merely pointing out what we know -- and I hope, calling for a calm, rational discussion about this highly charged subject.

The name calling and strident invectives on DU on this topic disgust me. It makes DU suck. I have avoided jumping into the fray for that reason.

Be reasonable DUers. If you disagree, do so politely, with respect using reason, not wild accusations and hyperbole. I think ProSense, and many others here would echo these sentiments.

Thanks for your time.

On my hard drive I have a Keith Olbermann "Special Comment" from the Bush era about connecting the Internet to the government (NSA?). Within that comment he references Mark Klein, the AT&T guy who connected their backbone to room 641A for purposes of government surveillance.

So, yes, we really have known about this for years. It didn't have a name, but it was known well enough to those of us who were paying attention.

Here it is:

Wish him luck.

He'll be covering the post season. And he's just the guy to do it.

took some anger management classes after Current and before TBS.

truly

Just a comment about the recent petulance here on DU.

I don't believe I have expressed any opinion on this spying matter other than I despise it.

But I will stand up for any DUer who wishes to bring up a rational point about what has happened without name calling, without hyperbole, without... well... jumping the shark.

We've known about all of this stuff for years. Yet some people here at DU seem to think it's all new.

Well, it is demonstrably untrue that this is new.

But saying so does not mean that I don't hate that it's still going on. Or that I don't hate that President Obama seemingly embraces it.

On the latter, I don't think he's lying when he says they're not spying on Americans. I think he believes that. What ProSense is saying is that is what the information we have states, also. I agree with ProSense that this is what we are told.

I have no knowledge on whether that is a fact because I have not seen anything other than opinion to decide the matter. Opinion just doesn't sway me much, I suppose.

In summation, do I like that the goverent is doing this?

No! It's too much like security theater and likely is against the Fourth Amendment.

Do I like that President Obama has continued the policy?

No! But I don't know that he believes anything other than what he has told us, either. I can disagree with him without thinking that he's a liar, or even that he's equivocating.

I wish we had a progressive liberal in the White House with the same in Congress. But we don't. Let's work with what we have. If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

Please keep the discussion polite and reasonable. Thanks.

I don't think I was that naive when I was a child.

I don't presume I know what's going on inside the man's brain, unlike some people here. And, let me add that I have read mutually contradicting opinions about that here, too. Opinions and presumptions are all too cheap here. I generally ignore them and stick to facts.

You presume to know what's inside my brain, too, apparently. Maybe you think I support this policy. Well, I do not.

But I have listened to both what the President has said, and what the National Security Advisor has written and I cannot not tell if they are lying or not. I presume from your response that you think you can. Well, that's your opinion. I have no problem with you holding that opinion to the extent to which you allow me to hold mine.

Again, I do not support these policies nor the administration's positions. But that doesn't mean I should be so presumptuous to say that I know anything about what's going on in Obama's brain on this.

I'll leave it there. Thank you for the response.

it would sure make things seem so much less depressing

Don't read the original post, write three scathing sentences, then pretend to be a righteous activist.

Thank you for your support. I was just trying to get some reason into the thread.

I ALWAYS read - I am simply FED UP with DUers with their heads WILLFULLY in the sand - SICK OF THEM

ProSense's posts are always well resourced, no matter the point of view. I like the style because that sort of thing takes effort.

I have no opinion on ProSense's opinion other than the posts are well done and provide multiple links to related Web content, both for and against particular positions.

That's good for a person like me with bandwidth limitations.

Everybody on DU thinks that their opinion is golden. I try not to do that, because then you stop reading people who you interpret as outside your opinion. They are wrong! And must be discarded.

Well, that's not a very productive way to build a community as large as DU. If we did that here, we'd be just like the Free Republic and we'd all agree with Skinner. We'd also be a lot smaller than DU.

Which would you choose?

I choose the diversity with respectful and polite disagreement. Not the chair throwing and name calling of this past week. That makes DU suck, badly.

And I have nobody on ignore because I value other people's opinions even when they disagree with me.

You may disagree with me. Do what you want.

That is unless they have data to back it up. I do not listen to mere opinion. I listen to fact and data, which always speak much louder than opinion.

I don't care about your opinion either. It doesn't bother me at all if you disagree with me. It may be an opportunity for me to learn something if you bring facts to bear. Maybe that's the difference between us.

I don't come to DU regularly to have my opinions validated. I come to DU to have my opinions challenged. If you want the former, there are sites which can do that. (However, most of them tend to be right wing sites.)

I come here to learn more. I don't have to agree with everybody to be able to learn from them.

ProSense is a good source because the posts are well constructed and multiply sourced. What more can one want? Unless, of course, one only comes here solely for personal validation.

That isn't me.

Sorry, my friend. I just can't go where you're attempting to take this.

is the presence or lack of lots of blue links

Maybe you've never read a scientific paper. But one provides sources, or amplification.

What you call blue links means somebody's taken the trouble. I don't have bandwidth to do so on an iPhone. I am thankful the some here do it. It really fleshes out a post.

If you don't see the advantage, I don't know what else to say to you.

It's late. I am done with this thread. Thank you for your responses.

Cheers!

I peg the swooners as the alerters, not the pros

not up to your usual standards

sayith our bonevelent Big Brother

eom

Throughout the novel Squealer is highly skilled at making speeches to the animals. He is also one of the leaders of the farm. Under the rule of Napoleon, Squealer does things to manipulate the animals.

Squealer's arguments [edit]Squealer takes the central role in making announcements to the animals, as Napoleon appears less and less often as the book progresses. Near the start of the book, it is said that he was very convincing and could turn "black into white". This is foreshadowing several euphemisms he uses to maintain the control of the barn through difficult times. He is Napoleon's key to propaganda for the farm






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squealer_(Animal_Farm)

on ANYBODY. Not sure which Bush appointee or clone of a Bush appointee at NSA or Hom Sec or FBI or CIA is, but I know it's not Obama.

did presidential candidate Obama go. Was he swapped out with a pod person?

to harm.

I don't believe this is the case, but if it is, he should have resigned if he wasn't ready to face the threat to the Constitution he swore to uphold. Your scenario is very unlikely, but if it happened to be true, then you just outlined a scenario where Obama gave in to a secret police state in order to protect his family. I'm livid with Obama for spying on the American public, but I think I must still hold him in higher regard than you do.

I don't think it's cowardly per se (unlike you). I do think he's no fool.

Funny that some people didn't notice.

"I think it's important to recognize that you can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience. We're going to have to make some choices as a society."

Which one do we want as a society because he is right u cannot have 100% of both.

...expect many in the future.

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the government generates every year there is NOT ONE THING that says US citizens are being spied on. I'm sure you are privy to ALL THOSE SECRETS so I guess I should just trust you. Of course were the government recording every phone call every text and every e-mail sent and received in the US I'm positive they would send you some blue links so you could show everyone the truth.

Let me ask a simple question.. if the government isn't spying on us(and in spite of your astounding claims that they are not, they have been since the 80's) then just what the hell is this for?:


I could tell you what it's for... but it's CLASSIFIED!

Seems like facts don't matter and selfishness does. I have been reading some "liberal" comments and as long as they have their privacy and since there is little chance of terrorist bombings than that percentage of it might happening is no concern to them because they want their privacy and damn if you are blown up because at least I have my privacy.

Personally I care about the whole country and alas, like it or not, we are in the 21th century and darn it electronics are everywhere, but at least they have their privacy.

So again thank for caring about me and my family and friends.

It's been going on since the '60s. Remember Cointelpro?

And it's gotten more invasive by the year.

Instead of parroting official propaganda, you should spend some time reading some of James Bamford's books on the NSA, first published in the '80s.

You have to be blind to believe the crap that you believe.

One thing is clear, you work really hard at it.


You may convince yourself, but those of us with eyes and functioning brain cells? Er, no fucking way.

did you see this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022954375

Obama is going to loose!!!!

Directly targets Americans only. Regardless of the lies out of DC.

They've lied before. Don't trust a liar.

what is currently being admitted, you'll move the line back and say *that's* no big deal.

I've seen this progression about fifty times now.

angry mob.

But, thanks for getting them out there, anyway, ProSense.

got to get to the hanging!

It's Monty Python humor.

Is it any wonder we don't have the Top 10 anymore?

Uh, don't ask

The Reality is that the internet, cell phones and other electronic media are extremely useful tools for all kinds of villians who seek to kill, maime and destroy. Our most vicious enemies are both home and foreign grown fanatics. To NOT monitor these electronic media for potential threats would be a GROSS DERILECTION OF DUTY. Anybody who doesn't realize that is in la-la land. Get used to it -- if you use a cell phone or email, then your communications ARE going to be monitored, and that's just the way it has to be. If you don't like it, then write a letter and send it snail mail, or talk person-to-person. When Obama starts opening our letters and hanging outside my house to listen to my private at-home conversations, then I'll worry.

On another note, my brother is a certified genius working on top secret network analyzing tools used by the CIA and NSA, and others. He obviously can't tell me much about what he does, but I do know that the hardware he helps create has been in use for a long, long time, and is designed to "sniff out" patterns in communications -- words like "kill Americans", "blow something up", etc... will definitely cause your communication to be more throroughly scrutinized. Anything else, it just gets bypassed as no-flags-raised.

There is nothing new with this "Obama snooping on your communications" issue except (I believe) the right-wing lie and scandal machine is pumping new rage and energy into it in order to 1) Create yet another scandal for Obama and 2) demoralize Obama supporters. If you let THIS prevent you from voting progressive in the next election, then the right-wing wins and we all lose.

my private at-home conversations, then I'll worry."

No you won't. You'll shift positions and decide that that's OK, too.

focal recording device.

It's bad if Bush does it, but it's hunky-dory if Obama does it. Knowledge has been bestowed.

Its not easy to take all the incoming hits, but you do it out of pure loyalty I suppose?

DUers go batshit crazy on all kinds of issues these days.
Half of them don't even give a crap about privacy, they just like the discord.

Self-explanatory.

here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973455

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"And the chocolate ration has been increased.
And we have always been at war with Eastasia."

...new material. Still, the lameness is hilarious.

color me stunned that ProSense stands behind Obama on this one.

EITHER WAY!

[font size=18]EITHER WAY![/font size]