I've assumed that USG had this capability, and used it on occasion, for eons. Certainly since Nahn Wun Wun (no matter how much they suggest it all came down later).

That's why Old Ari was saying "Watch what you say, watch what you do!"

Which he could do, instantly. He can just command the NSA to stop gathering the data.

Of course, this is, perhaps, evidence that I am not Presidential material, but that doesn't bother me too much. I wouldn't want the job.

-Laelth

I think it's possible that he would find himself defending the executive order in a Senate presided over by Chief Justice Roberts.

I am not a lawyer, or a Constitutional expert, but President Obama is both. I suspect he might be in a sticky place here.

He may not have the power you suggest. I don't know myself. I may be wrong, but it certainly something that should be considered.

Just a friendly counter argument.

But I don't think it's because he lacks the Constitutional power to do so. More likely, he's merely thinking like the politician he is.

Democratic politicians are very concerned about what people will say about them or what the electorate will do to them. They're thinking, "Well, what if there's another massive terrorist attack, and it is shown that the attack could have been prevented if we had done X, Y, and Z (all of which are legally authorized by the Patriot Act and other recent laws)? What then? We'll be crucified in the media! Republicans will say bad things about us! We will lose elections! Therefore, we must do X, Y, and Z, so that we don't get blamed for not preventing a terrorist attack."

That's the mindset that those of us who value our civil liberties are up against. I have no solution, but I fully understand why the same, authoritarian, police-state policies are pursued by both parties. This, I think, best explains Obama's dilemma.

-Laelth

then I don't know what to tell you

I just don't care--not much, anyway. Obama's not running for re-election. He has an opportunity to do the right thing, and I think he is wasting that opportunity. I do not think he would do great damage to the Democratic Party if he up and ordered the NSA to just stop collecting all this "metadata." He and his handlers are, most likely, very afraid of doing anything that might subject the President to accusations of being "soft" on terror. I think standing up for the Constitution is, quite simply, more important that worrying about how Obama is going to be portrayed in the media.

-Laelth

Which I see is to find something they can impeach him for so as to, in their warped minds, think that it would ensure another person other than an old white male ascends to the white house, then again I don't know what to say. These guys have been looking for something with some traction since day one. Its not right that a duly elected President be treated this way. I know there is things that I don't agree with that O has done but nothing that rises to the level of impeachment as the pukes would have us think. I don't think there is many who could stand up to the scrutiny that this man has been subject to and still be standing. In the fact that he is tells me he is one hell of a good person.
IMHO
Hell they not only have been looking for something they've been making shit up as the last outrages has shown to be.
Oh BTW, I'm an old white male.

Their party is dying, and they know it. In addition, I don't think it's healthy to try to understand how Republicans think--it might rub off on you.

Of course the Republicans want to impeach Obama. Nothing new there. But why should we care? They can scream bloody murder all they want, but until they get 60 votes in the Senate, they can't do squat, and they know it.

I just don't give a rip about the President's poll numbers, and that's the only thing that's at stake here--besides the 4th Amendment. Personally, I think the 4th Amendment is more important. One might argue that our "national security" is at issue, but I'd need to see some hard proof that this database was very effective in thwarting terrorist attacks before I would even begin to weigh its value against that of the 4th Amendment. To date, no such evidence has been presented.

Thanks for the reply.

-Laelth

and it will be Obama's fault according to ReTHUGs and their hacks

I've been out in the pool most of the day and it seems I've missed something. Earlier today it was all piss and vinegar around here now its all quiet, postings about other than obama is a bad bad boy. I always miss the good stuff. durn it anyway

Our neighbors invited us for lunch - delicious home cooked Indian food.
I missed the breaking news.

yep...
I re-read 1984 recently and it scared the fuck out of me that so much has come true. And I don't think it matters if it is a Democrat or Rethug in office, they ALL do it. (rethugs are just more obvious, i guess)

They have chosen sides, and they have not chosen ours. The people are now being treated as the enemy and the threat.

They're reading them anyway.

Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2013, 07:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe if we vastly increase and keep up the level of scrutiny, we can stop the next Iraq War?

Wouldn't that be great? Think of how many innocent lives were destroyed by that one evil conspiracy. Hundreds of thousands of people died horrible and unnecessary deaths and an entire country -if not more than one- has been thrown into desperate, ongoing chaos because a handful of evil men were allowed to plot mass murder in secret. It was easily the worst terrorist attack of its time, by orders of magnitude, and it isn't done killing yet. What if we can stop the next one by enforcing transparency on our leaders? That one accomplishment would go a long way to redeeming the Democratic Party in my eyes.

Those are my thoughts about government surveillance.

-Laelth

has been absolutely, hysterically, funny to watch. Journalists outing CIA operatives inside AQ then pretending they didn't know they'd be investigated. Journalists pretending they didn't know about these programs when the law was expanded and then extended just this past December.

And supposed Democrats who claim to be politically astute pretending they've never heard of such a thing before. Then Glenn Greenwald, the Bush asskisser head Iraq War cheerleader, the guy who trusted W with all national security decisions is the guy who leaks classified documents and people act like he's fucking God or something? Excuse me, he's as bad as Judith Miller, another Iraq War cheerleader, Bush stenographer and asskisser, who just so happened to out a CIA operative.

Funny, but the pattern jumps right out and grabs you by the hair and people close their eyes. I wonder why that is.

for a society that put everything out on the internet including pictures, sex tapes, texts, tweets, youtubes, messages of hate, love, health problems, reviews of everything from movies to marijuana strains, opinions, health tips and our political views, we are shocked when we find out someone might be reading it.

I've found out what people I used to know were up to thanks to the www - a guy I was crazy about is now a fricking teabagger. My god I could have married this douche back in the 80's. I shutter .... I've found my estranged nephew and I'm glad to know he's okay. I also found out about my sister being a cat hoarder before she died, she is forever on an internet database for animal cruelty. A newspaper story about me is forever on the net, along with an unflattering picture IMO. Then there's Ancestry.com - I found info about my grandparents - and cried when I was able to see their grave sites. I think because of Ancestry.com I am more American Indian than previously thought. Think about it, say you're engaged and someone isn't happy about it....regular people can do more damage than the govt.

If I were still working, I would be very careful - not because of the government, but because of my employer and future employers. They can ruin your life because you posted about a previous employer that was negative or a whole host of various things.

I would hope President Obama is telling us the truth - they are looking for the bad people, the real live folks who wish us harm. My life is boring and nearing it's end.

My hair is not on fire over this now. If Ted Cruz becomes president, I would probably pull the plug on my FB page and would advise others to do the same. I do not trust GOP - they let 911 happen after all.

I did pull the plug on my Google acct. I don't like how it's tied to everything Google ie YouTube etc.

"...(we)put EVERYTHING out on the internet... (and then)we are shocked when we find out (the gov't) might be reading it..."

we have collectively lost our minds!!

everybody who has a computer can read what we post.

Free-for-all......

I am more concerned about hackers, corporations and disgruntled old boyfriends accessing my information than the NSA. Do I approve of it? No, but there's not a damn thing I can do about it any more than I can do anything about corporate data mining.

I just found out that an old email account that I never used was hacked and some kind of spam was sent to all the people in that address book. That was annoying. Hopefully it happens to enough people that getting a random email with no message other than a link would merit an instant delete. Nothing is private anymore and it hasn't been for a very long time.

I could move to some unpopulated place and live off the grid. That would really be about the only way to remain anonymous. Bored, isolated, but anonymous. I'll take my chances with the NSA.

Maybe I'm just used to it now. Not like I can do much about it. I still oppose it, for the record.

I think that would be helpful.

You know that's published annually, right?

who are not doing anything wrong have nothing to fear

But I could be wrong

Those who are now criticising the President concerning these surveillance programs would most likely have done the same thing if they were sitting in the Oval Office. There are completely legitimate reasons for collecting this data. When presented with all the facts and evidence and issues and concerns.. the most wise and prudent thing to do is to use surveillance.. in a legal manner.

(is there any place we can speak privately?)

Hell, grocery stores are tracking our every purchase if we use a card or their rewards program. Practically every Internet site uses cookies to track our activity. Social networking sites are notorious for this too.

I do not like it one bit, but it is out there. If we disallow the government to collect and compile data, then we should extend that to private entities.

I would prefer to see the surveillance outrage and discussion have a broader ethical and legal scope instead of being used to exclusively bash and blame one man.

You are comparing a piss-ant to a dinosaur. And stop being so quick to toss my rights into the trash just because you don't give good god dam about your own.

Quite a leap there.

NOT showing them how.

That said, since tracking my routing info is theoretically possible, as a cryptographer I've always assumed it's going on anyways.

If it's inadmissible as evidence and illegal to disclose then it's probably OK. Not thrilled by it but don't know how it could be reasonably avoided. However it is one thing to tip off the Intelligence services and quite another to see the evidence being used in prosecutions. For these reasons I think it being Illegal while understanding that Gov't is doing it anyway is best. IMO.

And I'm not really sure about you, either.

It can't possibly be a coincidence that this is breaking at the same time as these UFO threads started to show up. Something much deeper must be happening!

Sure, everyone up and down the ladder could be lying to us but absent evidence to the contrary, why would anyone leap to that conclusion?

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