Last edited Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:17 AM - Edit history (1)

making it easier for government to spy. (Patriot Act, FISA Amendment Act of 2008 (telecom immunity included), and the Protect America Act of 2007, while it did sunset, PRISM was born at this time - shortly after the PAA was enacted - and the FAA of 2008 continued many of the provisions/expansions of the PAA.)

All acts made into law by Congress. The people we are supposed to trust.

and then there's the SCOTUS with Scalia, Roberts, Alito, and Thomas.

... in some minds, all of those Acts added together (Patriot, FISA, Protect America from whenever, et.al)

equals

The Constitution

signed by a President, from powers granted by the Constitution.

That said - bad laws do get passed by Congress/governments and laws do get passed that cause harm.

Jim Crow was legal & MLK noted in his "Letter From Birmingham Jail" that everything Hitler did was legal. Meaning that just because something is made legal doesn't mean it serves the interest of democracy or equality or justice or liberty. That horrible deeds can be committed through what is made legal. That rights can be eroded or denied through what is made legal.

A tyrant can claim his actions are legal and by his words they are legal - doesn't make him any less a tyrant or his actions any less odious.

Even in a representative democracy, bad people can be elected to office and create bad law. It's legal - but that doesn't make it any less bad law or any less destructive.

After September 11, 2001, people with a less than democratic nature pushed for all kinds of reforms and laws that expanded the powers of the presidency and government in general - and we're living the result of those changes, from the social to the economic.

If anyone can call that good or OK because much of it was made legal then they've chosen a path I can't follow.

Our country has been sold down the effing river. The wool has been pulled over our eyes. All because we were sold a bill of goods that was a pack of lies. Like a magic trick. A very swift shell game. Hypnotized with fear, fear, fear. The illegal was made legal and Viola'! A coup was perpetrated. So much more was perpetrated during GWB's years in office than we are able to comprehend. We still haven't come to terms with what happened during those years. I do think we, as a people, were led right over the edge into Fascism. If anyone thinks I'm out of my mind for saying that... then go listen to Amy Goodman today. Listen to the first guest she interviews after the initial news section. http://www.DemocracyNow.org

We're all a Corporation now.

Not I.

Rec now, Rec often.

You mean like 2008?

will not give up their government gravy train without a fight.

We have millions of immigrants and visitors living here from parts of the world that the US is hated. We have no way of knowing who they are or what they are up to. Maybe Obama is scared shitless by what info he now has access to, which he didnt before he became president.
So maybe we are putting the horse before the cart. I've always claimed that if we truly wanted to end the "war on terror" we will have to stop importing oil from those regions which we must protect with our military presence and occupation which is the root cause of their hatred.

and we're on to something.

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Obama has basically said "let's get rid of the AUMF" - he supported the changes to the PATRIOT Act. He has constantly called for "National Discussions". As Jon Stewart said to him in an interview (and of course i am paraphrasing), "you basically seem to be saying 'take these powers away from me!'" So I don't think Obama will have a "sad" if we have a serious discussion on his watch - I think he would be DELIGHTED!

Notice the caveat - "serious" discussion. Remember, this is the age where we are constantly bombarded with "Terms of Service" online that no one ever reads, but just scroll to the bottom and click "I Agree". We are constantly reminded that "emails are never deleted - they always exist on some server somewhere" and yet we still send emails. I saw a "failbook" post today where a "redacted" user threatened whoever gave out his phone number, and then one of the replies pointed out that it was posted on his public profile.

And this was posted on another public website! That's how I saw it!

You also left out something very important in your post - it was also required to have an independent court - the FISA court - to approve it. That is the major difference between the current policy and Bush's policies - Bush wanted no oversight - the current policy requires both Congressional and independent Court approval. I was alarmed to find out that the FISA court has never denied an order. That means one of two things:

Either every request that has been made of the FISA courts was undeniable, or
The FISA Courts are a "rubber stamp" joke.

I somehow doubt the former, unless there is some kind of internal program prior to making FISA warrant requests easy. The Court Order that was requested would fall under this category. But it's difficult for me to believe that would be true for all requests. But I could be wrong.

Congressional oversight would help guard against the latter - as long as the Congressional members charged with such oversight are paying attention.

But, bottom line, is this level of surveillance necessary?

There is a thin line between security and privacy that we must decide where it must be drawn. Should we give up all pretense of privacy for security? Should we give up all security for complete privacy? Different people will argue different positions - for instance, someone living in a fortified camp growing illegal plants would argue for the latter. A paranoid exhibitionist living in an urban setting who is afraid of everyone might argue for the former.

I think most of us want something in between.

Repealing the AUMF and the PATRIOT Act 2 are the first steps. But we will need new "peace-time" legislation to replace them.

But we will need to stop all the knee-jerk reactions to do something meaningful.