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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums[Snowden]...Showed Hong Kong Newspaper Documents Revealing US Hacking Attacks On China (updated 2x)
Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 05:51 PM - Edit history (2)
NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden has told a Hong Kong newspaper that the U.S. government has been hacking Hong Kong and Chinese networks for at least four years.
The comments were made as part of the South China Morning Post's exclusive interview with Snowden — his first since revealing himself on Sunday.
Snowden reportedly showed reporter Lana Lam documents that showed the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. He estimated there were hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and mainland China, including the Chinese University of Hong Kong. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, Snowden said.
“We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” Snowden told Lam.
- more -
http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-us-has-been-hacking-china-2013-6
Updated to add:
By KEITH BRADSHER
<...>
He also said that the United States’ surveillance program had gained access to hundreds of computers in Hong Kong and China since 2009. “We hack network backbones – like huge Internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” the newspaper quoted him as saying.
Mr. Snowden’s decision to stay in Hong Kong came as a person with knowledge of the Hong Kong government’s work on the case said local government lawyers, working with United States government lawyers, had identified 36 offenses with which Mr. Snowden could be charged under both Hong Kong and American laws.
The United States and Hong Kong operate under a 1996 bilateral extradition agreement, and any attempt by the United States to extradite Mr. Snowden would have to cite offenses that violate the laws in both countries, are punishable by jail terms of a year or more and meet the terms of that agreement. One of the 36 offenses involves the release of official secrets, which is illegal in Hong Kong and the United States, said the person familiar with Hong Kong government efforts, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the delicate legal and diplomatic aspects of the case.
<...>
Mr. Snowden is almost certainly under surveillance by the Hong Kong authorities, said Steve Vickers, who oversaw police criminal intelligence here before Britain returned Hong Kong to China in 1997. He now runs his own risk consulting firm.
- more -
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/13/world/asia/nsa-leaker-says-he-will-stay-in-hong-kong-and-fight-extradition.html
Update 2:
By Jethro Mullen. Chelsea J. Carter and Michael Pearson, CNN
<...>
Among some 61,000 reported targets of the National Security Agency, Snowden said, are thousands of computers in China -- which U.S. officials have increasingly criticized as the source of thousands of attacks on U.S. military and commercial networks. China has denied such attacks.
The Morning Post said it had seen documents provided by Snowden but was unable to verify their authenticity. The English-language news agency, which operates in Hong Kong, also said it was unable to independently verify allegations of U.S. hacking of networks in Hong Kong and mainland China since 2009.
Snowden told the paper that some of the targets included the Chinese University of Hong Kong, public officials and students. The documents also "point to hacking activity by the NSA against mainland targets," the newspaper reported.
The claims came just days after U.S. President Barack Obama pressed Chinese President Xi Jinping to address cyberattacks emanating from China that Obama described as "direct theft of United States property."
- more -
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak/
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Gotta earn that asylum by currying favor with the regime in Beijing.
What he released re: NSA records on Americans etc was whistleblowing.
Turning Chinese agent makes him a damn traitor.
randome
(34,845 posts)Shit. That means John Boehner was right.
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He was a hero when he said shit 2 days ago, now he's a traitor because he says something yesterday? The NSA "spying", monitoring, whatever was legal and this guy is a traitor from day one, and I agree a little with Rep King.... some aspect of the press has to be held accountable.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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Cha
(297,727 posts)life. 
randome
(34,845 posts)
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Whisp
(24,096 posts)I hear a big Orchestra in this and all the parts are playing according to the music sheet.
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)Wonder what country is next....Russia is my guess. Probably why the yanked about asylum for him.
JackN415
(924 posts)citizen soon.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)They probably hack into our systems all the time and have for quite some time.
You can't "betray" secrets to people who already know them.
The Chinese help make our computers. I remember reading some time ago about fears among some that the Chinese might be building routes in some of our most important computers that permit them to spy on us.
The businesses that gave our technology to countries in the Far East including India and China are to blame for the real leaks. Snowden is just kind of a straw man although he may very well have given this information to the Chinese. I doubt that they hadn't already figured this out. This is the way information systems work. They link together. I'm not on Facebook for that reason. I would love to be able to share with my family, but I just don't think it is appropriate to put family matters that are important and need to be private out there like that.
Who knows who is watching? Who knows who reads my posts here? I'm old and retired. That's why I write freely here. Do you think I would have expressed myself so freely if I were still applying for jobs?
Our system is very repressive. And the Chinese are even more repressive than we are. Repressive systems are created by controlling people. Of course, they spy on everything because that is how they can control it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)they would probably feed us false or limited information.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
pnwmom
(108,996 posts)showed the locations of fiber-optic cables in the oceans.
That could be useful for any terrorist operation or any unfriendly government.
randome
(34,845 posts)Since he now has taken over for the Supreme Court to decide what is constitutional for us, it's only fair that he do what he can to reduce the unemployment rate.
Those cables weren't going to get moved without his heroism.
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pnwmom
(108,996 posts)LOL
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)And they don't know everything. Maybe our spying is better than theirs. Doubling down on defense of Eddie once this came out - there are no words.
MADem
(135,425 posts)at Sunnyland, where Obama spoke strongly to the Chinese about hacking and theft of intellectual property, was a fine coincidence, wouldn't you say?
That certainly had the result of "flipping the script" to the benefit of the Chinese.
And of course the Chinese delegation REFUSED the quarters offered by POTUS because "they thought they might be bugged." Were they tipped off...or were they following an already-prepared script?
There's plenty to wonder about with this story.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)and related programs, a whistleblower (former NSA staff) said that the terrorists have known since the late '90s that their electronic communications were most likely under surveillance. If that is true, then surely China, that industrial behemoth that produces a lot of the computers you and I are typing on right now, would have known. I doubt that Snowden was telling them anything new. I'm not sure that Europeans fully appreciated the extent of the surveillance. I suspect that they would have expected Americans to have a little more integrity than to snoop to the extent that we have.
This degree of surveillance is an absolute nightmare in the making. Worst thing yet. It is like a malignant cancer on our nation's ideals and the aspirations of future generations.
Windy
(5,944 posts)NOT a whistleblower. The problem is the patriot act. It needs to be re-examined.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)to include stuff that's legal but not known
Windy
(5,944 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)my understanding to that of a statute.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)You're giving him a guilty til proven innocent on that, aren't ya?
I'd have to see his emails and phone logs to be convinced.
---------
He "reportedly showed reporter Lana Lam documents" ....
"reportedly showed a reporter" -- 
yoiks
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"We spy on the Chinese" is ALL he has said. (Duh)
The real story is that the US government is treating its own citizens like they treat the Chinese.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)with information that they can use against the US.
And if anyone thinks the Chinese government isn't having this guy followed and bugged . . .
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)that they can use against us. Zero. Nada. If you can find any real evidence, I'm interested in seeing it.
A report from some reporter speaking "reportedly" is just not evidence. And anyway all it says is that he confirms that we troll & sniff Chinese networks. News to nobody and as somebody else said here, an insult to the intelligence of the Chinese to think they are now informed of that fact.
You should be more worried about being "followed and bugged" yourself. The FISA court is NO protection for American citizens in this. None.
---------------
And as for his seeking protection in China, not a good bet--the OP's NYT article above says:
“He doesn’t stand a good chance of avoiding extradition,” said Nicholas Bequelin, a Human Rights Watch researcher here. “When all is said and done, the Hong Kong government does cooperate with the United States on these cases. The only thing that could stop it is for China to step in.” Legal and diplomatic experts said it was highly unlikely that China, which has no formal extradition apparatus with the United States, would intervene.
Former judges and prosecutors tend to agree that the court system here has almost always granted extradition requests from the United States.
These litigators note that extradition cases are heard in Hong Kong by judges — not juries, whose members might be more easily swayed by Mr. Snowden’s appeals to public opinion.
“If Uncle Sam wants you, Uncle Sam will get you,” said Kevin Egan, a former prosecutor who has since worked as a defense lawyer on extradition cases.
While Mr. Snowden could say that he was the subject of political persecution in the United States, “the judiciary here is notoriously unsympathetic” to such claims, Mr. Egan added."
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IMO all this "Chinese agent" stuff is kind of old school. The electronic tethers that touch us all are global in scope. The tentacles are everywhere. I don't think he can escape. What he has revealed to the naive & trusting American people is what is important. We need to worry about our own hides.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I don't see folks here exercising a whole lot of restraint in believing what he has released/stated via Greenwald and the WaPo.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--a Pulitzer prize winning investigative journalist-- over "Lana Lam" in Hong Kong who received something "reportedly"...
Here's what I found on Lana--she seems to be Chinese-Australian:
http://hk.linkedin.com/pub/lana-lam/28/571/468
--------------
Rachel had Gellman on the other night--he's very credible. Maybe it's still on Maddow Blog. Chek it out. As for Greenwald, I see no reason to tar and feather him either.
Other sources find Snowden credible in what he has said also. It wouldn't be this big a story otherwise.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)People choose whom they want to believe. Just because Ms. Lam is "Chinese-Australian" is not reason to doubt what she's saying.
Moreover, if her story was incorrect, I'm certain Mr. Snowden could have gotten word out to clarify matters.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)I wrote that she is Chinese Australian by way of INFO. That she is not native Chinese, she is Australian. YOU inferred that I meant it as a reason to doubt her. I don't doubt her words, but she is not nearly as involved in this as Barton Gellman and Greenwald and judging by her picture, she's a youngun just doing her reportedly reporting. Sorry, not as much cred in the field of Journalism (maybe someday if she works hard, I'm not putting her down). Think objectively here. The article does not provide any evidence that Snowden gave important secrets to the Chinese.
I would presume the documents he showed them are authentic, to get any kind of cred with the paper and give the interview. That was his goal. He has already DONE what he set out to do. But people can't see that. They want to make him a defector to China or something worse than what they think he already is. This is not the way you would go about being a friend to China. I think he'll be extradited pretty easily. Unless somebody there will help him as a whistle blower. The Chinese govt doesn't really want him, most likely.
What I'm saying is, this reporter's report is valid but there is no evidence in the article of any top secret level info being delivered to China. And yet gullible people here are convinced of it.
David__77
(23,520 posts)"Agent" means that he acted under direction of China. I find this unlikely. More likely, he had a personal political agenda and defected to the Chinese to give information. There isn't a difference as regards his legal status, but there is as regards China. Of course they'll take a wrapped gift delivered into their laps.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I'm sure they're scouring his communications and movements to see if he had any contact with China over the past few years.
David__77
(23,520 posts)They're not too big on accepting "ideological" recruits. If he had sent information, they would have taken it. But they wouldn't have ordered him what to do or what to report on. And they certainly wouldn't have approved or directed him to flee in the over-the-top manner he did - and to their country, no less.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)nt
Cha
(297,727 posts)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Floyd_Gondolli
(1,277 posts)Some wackadoo actually called him a "titan" in another thread today which is of course sounds completely fucking ludicrous -- unless you're out of your mind.
Number23
(24,544 posts)if someone even so much as smiles in the president's direction.
Threads where people have actually said they don't care about his motives for releasing this information, none of which is new, except of course to the Chinese.
DCKit
(18,541 posts)They've hacked the Pentagram and half our corporations. It's what governments do.
That they're horrified by this is laughable.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Everyone acts like we are so superior to the Chinese in this high tech stuff and they "didn't know." That is laughable.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I did not say or even infer that the Chinese were "horrified" by this. I said that the information they've received re: the specific details of how they've been spied on would be news to them.
People may know they're being spied on but the specifics of the way in which they're being spied on could be news. If they've only hacked "half" the corporations in America and a few divisions in the Pentagon here and there, a few military installations here and there, they may not have a complete picture. Snowden may have filled in some of the blanks for all that we know.
OregonBlue
(7,754 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This makes him an agent of the Chinese government.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Snowden is completely innocent until proven guilty.
One NOT very well sourced article in Business Insider doesn't sway anything for me, and it shouldn't for anyone.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Innocent until proven guilty is a formality, since he will never stand trial, as the Chinese are unlikely to extradite one of their own agents.
David__77
(23,520 posts)It publishes all sorts of things that the Chinese government would prefer that it not.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)he didn't reveal anything to us....he revealed stuff to China....
Never WAS a whistleblower!
eissa
(4,238 posts)I've been saying that from the start, damn it! A whistleblower reveals illegal activities, corruption, and/or abuse. Ellsberg, Karen Silkwood, Deep Throat, are famously and accurately described as whistleblowers. "Revealing" legal (however unpopular) activity, running off to CHINA with classified info, does NOT make one a whistleblower. It makes him an ass.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)East Coast Pirate
(775 posts)They hack us, we hack them.
EC
(12,287 posts)our relations with many countries are going to implode.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)But when you come at it from a cult-of-personality perspective I see how that would elude you.
still_one
(92,422 posts)but he didn't, and thus he is the story now
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Is Thomas Drake the story too?
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)he wasn't anonymous, since the government can find out who you are.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)So that's why he ran to China.
pnwmom
(108,996 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Stall extradition. 
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He'll be blabbing everything he knows to help them hack our systems, etc.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I wonder if he has been working for them for awhile, or he got an offer he couldn't refuse....
I heard this morning that Russia dropped him like a hot potato.
Why the hell did this asshat have this much clearance to begin with?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He's a narcissist, so he's probably doing this on his own accord.
But, now he belongs to upholders of freedom in Beijing.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)fabulous freedom in China. Fucking traitor.
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)He'll be disappointed. American Chinese food is way better than Chinese Chinese food.
I'm sure they'll be feeding him well, though, until they're done with him.
That's true. Years ago I celebrated Chinese New Year at a friend's house. Some of the food was good. I couldn't tell what some of the stuff was though, it was chewy.
I wonder if this should call into question the "documents" here.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)
BeyondGeography
(39,383 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He's one of theirs now.
BeyondGeography
(39,383 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,383 posts)Might work better if he were 79 instead of 29, but when every conversation about US/Chinese relations begins with a complaint about Snowden, they'll tire of it soon enough. Anyway, unless the story has changed, they're already not so thrilled to have him:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5htK1g2H06SrYR2Rz8mGHviDQxMVg?docId=CNG.49be94b4db55eb7c0d790f5087159945.41
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)he starts offering up information to help them.
They own his ass now.
randome
(34,845 posts)Do we even have proof that he's IN Hong Kong? We know someone booked a flight and someone checked in and checked out of a hotel.
And now the BusinessInsider article. But do we truly know where he is?
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BeyondGeography
(39,383 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Or did he phone it in?
With all the crap he's spewing, I was just wondering if he and Greenwald aren't trying to pull the wool over all our eyes.
Probably not, just an idle thought.
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)But his latest stint was with Booz Allen. But yeah, he and Greenwald had clearly been planning this for a while.
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Hey Greenwald...THIS is what happens when you lie down with dogs!
Wake up with fleas!
Greenwald a flea bitten co-conspirator to treason!
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)If this guy talked to Greenwald in January as he claims...then goes to work for Booz Allen Hamilton and then commits treason and runs and hides behind the skirts of China. Then yeah...Greenwald is an accomplice to that isn't he and then suddenly Greenwald is telling us that this guy is some kind of hero for revealing state secrets in a scheme he helped cook up...I'd say he deserves investigating at the very least!
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Why are you in such a hurry to have a journalist prosecuted?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)hiding behind and passing data to the Chinese demands questions be asked of them both...
Or do you not care about the rule of law?
Bravery would be declaring what he knew in a public forum and then accepting the consequences...that is not what happened.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)I'm also concerned with due process, presumption of guilt, laws that shouldn't be laws, unconstitutionality and unfair application of law. There's a long, long tradition of using charges of treason to protect the powerful and hide information.
The Guardian is not a public forum?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)But you keep defending the guy that sold documents of spying to the Chinese...
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)But actually I've mostly been defending against presumptions, fallacies, inaccuracies, demonizing tactics, lack of substantiation, propagandizing, and blurring of concepts.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)this guy SAID himself that he showed documents to the Chinese regarding spying on them....by the oath he swore to obtain Top Secret Security he signed...He broke the law.
Unless of course you are really not interested in rule of law..
still_one
(92,422 posts)a propaganda tool for the Chinese to justifying them hacking us
I can hardly wait until they reportedly say we have been violating their copyrights
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)One of the targets in the SAR, according to Snowden, was Chinese University and public officials, businesses and students in the city. The documents also point to hacking activity by the NSA against mainland targets.
Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.
“We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” he said.
“Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.”
Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.
Traitor.
warrior1
(12,325 posts)
I
ananda
(28,877 posts)Geez, what's with this guy? Does he have a death wish?
MADem
(135,425 posts)
liberal N proud
(60,346 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)One problem though. The word "reportedly". Snowden reportedly showed reporter Lana Lam documents Either he did or he didn't. I'd give any Democrat the same defense.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post...
A video everyone would love to see.
randome
(34,845 posts)“My only comment is that I am glad there are governments that refuse to be intimidated by great power”.
This is in reference to Russia. Presumably he thinks the same of China.
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timdog44
(1,388 posts)at the same time he was undercover in Switzerland. He is blabbing his pie hole about everything he is delusional to think he did. He is going to be disappeared. No one can trust him. Hope he takes his friend Glenn Greenwald with him on vacation.
randome
(34,845 posts)We knew the NSA was storing phone metadata. We knew they monitored the Internet. And we've always known that we spy on the Chinese as well as every other country on the planet.
So I don't think any of this rises to the 'disappeared' option. Snowden has a much greater opinion of himself than anyone else, I think.
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timdog44
(1,388 posts)of him being disappeared by the Chinese.
Over here he is just a piss ant unworthy of notice.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
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randome
(34,845 posts)'Reportedly' Snowden could spy on anyone in the world at any time.
We have no evidence of...anything, really.
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Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Yet he still could be a lying traitor and a criminal, but far from a hero.
still_one
(92,422 posts)
flamingdem
(39,330 posts)... no surprise there
still_one
(92,422 posts)scenes
flamingdem
(39,330 posts).. oh to be a fly on the wall. Wonder if Greenwald is "talking" with the Chinese too
still_one
(92,422 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)'These people were collaborators, informants. They deserve to die.'
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Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)involved in electronic warfare against China, Russia, and the EU? As they are with us?
This could prove the one positive thing to come out of this whole affair.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Next up: military and covert even if he lies about it.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Fighting for civil liberties and jumping into the hands of and supporting the Chinese? http://www.opednews.com/articles/I-too-am-a-Grass-Mud-Horse-by-Steven-Leser-090313-539.html
Whisp
(24,096 posts)jumbo shrimp and military intelligence can now retire.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)for biggest oxymoron ever.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)that is not a wow directed at snowden but a preemptive one for the many who will come along and defend even this.
msongs
(67,453 posts)
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)However concrete evidence of it is rarely disseminated. If that is truly the case here, it is a security breach that goes far beyond mere whistle-blowing. Yes, everyone spies on everyone else, but information on how and where is not known. If it becomes known, the picture changes, and not for the better.
This is something not to be celebrated. Truly.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)And published a well-regarding book entitled Cyber War. Clarke says the US government hacks into other governments too.
This is the same message that Edward Snowden has stated.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and offer them classified documents showing how our intelligence efforts are carried out.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)submitting to their authority.
And, do you really think the reporter lied?
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Nor do I think this one is.
Snowden went to Hong Kong because it retains a separate legal system and tradition of free speech. Beijing normally does not become involved in surrender hearings.
SunSeeker
(51,726 posts)Ironic that Snowden sought refuge in Hong Kong to complain about surveillance. Hong Kong has some of the most expansive civilian surveillance laws in the world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/world/asia/06cnd-hong.html?_r=1&
So much for Snowden's stupid praise of Hong Kong's "strong tradition of free speech." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-basic-liberties_n_3414824.html
Things are not looking better for him. The only country that appears to be entertaining the idea of giving him asylum is Russia, where you can't fart without Putin knowing about it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/edward-snowden-russia-asylum_n_3420576.html
And got a link about your claim that Beijing normally does not become involved in surrender hearings? The Chinese government has indicated they would extradite him.
“He won’t find Hong Kong a safe harbor,” Ms. Ip said. “Those agreements have been enforced for more than 10 years. If the U.S. submits a request, we would act in accordance with the law.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/world/asia/edward-snowden-hong-kong-extradition.html?_r=0
Of course, if he offers up U.S. secrets to China, as it appears he is doing, I imagine they will let him stay for a while. But if he does that, he is toast. He will be treated like the traitor he is by the U.S., and China won't have a whole lot of use for him once they are done with him.
MADem
(135,425 posts)FROM Beijing, in essence.
However, that "Chinese" newspaper that he gave an interview to?
It is owned by a pro-Beijing Malay businessman, and Rupert Murdoch--who used to be the full owner--still has a minority position at the paper.
Yes, THAT Rupert Murdoch.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)you know china, one of your largest trading partners, where your corporations get their cheap labour.
the US and china are a bit co-dependant when it comes down to it.
nobody has actually died or anything, no agents exposed, if there had been we would of heard of that by now because the government would be baying it from the rooftops.
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)offered the Chinese government classified documents. ZERO. He reportedly showed the journalist documentation of the claims he was making about the US hacking non-military related infrastructure. He did not give her a copy according to the article. He did not make an offer to give them to the Chinese government according to the article. You're just pulling that claim out of your ass.
randome
(34,845 posts)Everything about Snowden is 'reportedly'. We have no evidence of any of his claims.
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Whisp
(24,096 posts)Because he sure as hell does in some way.
I'm beginning to think this kid has been used by Glen and others. It's horribly sad.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)up with the freedom loving government in Beijing.
He could have gone to Ecuador. Or Venezuela. Or Bolivia. Or any number of anti-imperialist countries with democratic institutions in place.
Instead, he went to a country that would be able to use his knowledge against the US, making him more valuable to them.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)there have been some discrepancies as to when Glen and Snowden first met and some dates of the events are in question.
Anyway, I wonder if Greenwald will be making the tours of the media now and try to continue with his story.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He had the documents, but chose not to publish them.
Greenwald is obnoxious often, but he's not going to offer himself as a servant of the Chinese government.
randome
(34,845 posts)I have the impression that Greenwald would have no compunction about publishing anything.
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)includes them not telling him what he can and can't publish.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)I haven't been looking. He may be enduring some questioning today. He may have made a serious mistake in this case.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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MineralMan
(146,333 posts)He may be laying low, or answering questions from embassy folks in suits. I'd guess the second, but I don't know where he is, anyhow. If he's smart, he'll STFU for now, at least publicly.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Took me about 60 seconds to find it. He's been "laying low" on an airliner.
Update, 2:34 p.m. Eastern: Greenwald, touching down, writes in an email to The Atlantic Wire:
Snowden was clear from the start that he didn't want indiscriminate document dumping, but only disclosures that passed a careful and judicious journalistic test weighing public interest versus harm. I have no idea if he has a contingency plan to protect himself — he might — but everything I've heard from him has been opposed to gratuitous disclosures.
As for the Guardian, I've been flying the last 24 hours so am not updated on what they may have done in that regard.
MADem
(135,425 posts)That will pay his bills for a year or two. Again.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 14, 2013, 03:14 AM - Edit history (1)
He wrote on decriminalizing drugs. The horror!
"In seven-plus years of political writing, I have written a grand total of twice for Cato: the first was a 2009 report on the success of drug decriminalization in Portugal, and the second was a 2010 online debate in which I argued against former Bush officials about the evils of the surveillance state."
"In 2008, I spoke at a Cato event on the radicalism and destructiveness of Bush/Cheney executive power theories."
"The fees for those two papers and that one speech were my standard writing and speaking fees. Those payments are a miniscule, microscopic fraction of my writing and speaking income over the last 7 years. I have done no paying work of any kind with them since that online surveillance debate in 2010 (I spoke three times at Cato for free: once to debate the theme of my 2007 book on the failure of the Bush administration, and twice when I presented my paper advocating drug decriminalization)."
The truth of the matter is that if Greenwald had not broken this story, someone else aThe Guardian or somewhere else would have.
MADem
(135,425 posts)He appeared at the CATO member's shindig and he wasn't presenting any papers. He wasn't "speaking for free"--he was on the payroll.
http://exiledonline.com/glenn-greenwald-of-the-libertarian-cato-institute-posts-his-defense-of-joshua-foust-the-exiled-responds-to-greenwald/
Glenn Greenwald claiming he only wrote “2 freelance articles” for the Cato Institute is offensive it’s so utterly absurd. We know it. Glenn knows it. For one thing, one of those “free-lance articles” was nothing resembling a “freelance article”—it was a major policy whitepaper, a one-year massive report that included numerous speaking engagements on behalf of the Koch-founded Cato Institute. And let’s not forget, the Cato Institute was originally founded as The Charles Koch Foundation of Wichita. We merely copied the phrase “Glenn Greenwald of the libertarian Cato Institute” from the description used by numerous mainstream media outlets across the country over the past few years. For example:
Here: http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/will-republicans-take-lessons-from-british-conservatives-1.169415
“Glenn Greenwald of the libertarian Cato Institute, endorsing the California measure, notes that…”
Or here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8207584/Politicians-should-say-what-they-really-think-about-drugs.html
“Judged by virtually every available metric,” says Glenn Greenwald of the Cato Institute, a libertarian US think tank, “the Portuguese decriminalisation framework has been a resounding success.”
Moreover, as Greenwald himself knows better than anyone, his ties to the Cato Institute and the Koch-funded libertarian nomenklatura go deeper than this. For example, Glenn Greenwald was one of the keynote speakers at an elite “Cato Benefit Sponsors” event, featuring Glenn and Cato fellow P.J. O’Rourke and winger Michael Barone. Who among progressives is invited as a top entertainer for the elite Cato Institute Benefit Sponsors event? Glenn Greenwald, that’s who.
Perhaps someone else at the Guardian SHOULD have broken the story. Between Greenwald of the Koch paycheck breaking the story, and Snowden giving an interview to a Hong Kong newspaper in which Rupert Murdoch still holds minority shares (he used to own the thing outright), well...it could be entirely innocent coincidence, but it looks bad.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)I've seen The Exiled stuff before. No credibility.
MADem
(135,425 posts)benefactors' party.
The Exiled folks have absolute credibility regarding this story. They have chapter and verse. There is more, all over the net, too. GG shouldn't tell falsehoods in the digital age.
Here's CATO praising GG and touting some of their past history together--they even threw a "book event" for him (way back in 2007) ...hardly a casual relationship:
http://www.cato.org/blog/hat-tip-glenn-greenwald
I'm not the only one who is noticing that something is amiss:
http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/greenwald-sticks-with-his-story-in-spite-of-growing-questions/
...1. Why hasn’t Greenwald clarified his “direct access to servers” language from last week’s PRISM report?
Multiple other news outlets have provided information debunking the notion that the NSA had unfettered back door access to servers belonging to the various tech giants named in the PRISM slides. The New York Times described a process whereby the various tech companies, after receiving a FISA court approved request from the NSA and vetting it through their legal departments, gather the information and post it in a virtual “mailbox” for the NSA to retrieve: “It is not sent automatically or in bulk, and the government does not have full access to company servers. Instead, they said, it is a more secure and efficient way to hand over the data.”
You know what this is? It sounds like an FTP server to me, not unlike Dropbox. This is how many of us transfer digital files that are too large for email. The NSA apparently doesn’t enjoy a free pass to directly grab up server data at will — instead, it merely downloads it from an FTP server (or similar) after it’s been placed there by the tech company that set it up for them. Again, this undercuts one of the most outrage-inducing aspects of Greenwald’s story, not to mention the initial Washington Post reporting as well. The NSA doesn’t have “direct access” to anything other than an innocuous file transfer “mailbox.” But “direct access” sounds sexier and therefore feeds the outrage agenda.
2. Why hasn’t Greenwald posted more technical details?
This is perhaps one of the most frequently discussed head-scratchers circulating around these stories. Greenwald has been communicating with an ostensibly tech savvy source who could easily summarize some of the above details about mailboxes and data transfers. Maybe not all of the incomprehensible computer jargon, but at least an overview of the IT side of the process. It seems to me that a story this dependent upon complex technology would include a sidebar with more specifics about the operation’s functionality, enabling IT experts to vet Snowden’s claims, further legitimizing his role and status. Technical vetting might also answer other questions: Could Snowden wiretap anyone including the president? Could Snowden really access any CIA station (only slightly less far-fetched-sounding than saying he’s bionic, too)? This disclosure of key technical specifications never happened. In fact, Greenwald hasn’t said whether Snowden’s information was subjected to any technical vetting at all, independent or otherwise.
Additionally, Snowden chose to speak with two separate news outlets. So why didn’t he also contact one of the many tech news sites like BoingBoing, Slashdot or Wired? Why did he choose someone, Greenwald, who’s admitted to being an IT neophyte? If a whistleblower from Big Pharma came to me with information about a drug that was chemically castrating people, I would take the whistleblower’s information to an expert for at least cursory technical vetting to make sure the source wasn’t a crank. Journalism 101. But it didn’t happen here. Why?
3. Why did Greenwald exaggerate the scope of his Verizon story?
Yesterday on Twitter, Greenwald wrote that nobody thought the USA PATRIOT Act enabled “bulk collection of all Americans’ records.” Another Twitter user replied, “You mean “some of” not “all”. Unless you have something else to share?” Greenwald’s response? “The program we exposed is the collection of all American’s phone records.” Unless I missed a revelation in Greenwald’s reporting, and I don’t think I have, this is an untrue statement. The program he described last week, prior to his PRISM reporting, had to do with the NSA’s collection of Verizon phone records for a span of three months. Unless “all Americans” take Verizon as their phone provivder, Greenwald was wrong. But this is how his agenda seeps into his reporting. It begins with Verizon customers then morphs into everyone, and outrage ensues with hyperbole growing rapidly into groupthink reality. Yes, other reports indicate that the NSA likely collected mobile data from other carriers, but again, this is hardly indicates “all Americans.”
More questions....
His reporting is poor, his bias is evident, and his associations are suspect. He's hit a trifecta with me, and he's in the "Heckuvajob" club, AFAIAC. He's not an honest broker.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)@ggreenwald: I'm a secret right-wing CATO libertarian (http://t.co/0s16qBPnVs ) & a radical-leftist Marxist-Leninist (http://t.co/3aKz5Eizg9 )
MADem
(135,425 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)You could try looking.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/06/ed-snowden-new-nsa-leaks/66162
Update, 2:34 p.m. Eastern: Greenwald, touching down, writes in an email to The Atlantic Wire:
Snowden was clear from the start that he didn't want indiscriminate document dumping, but only disclosures that passed a careful and judicious journalistic test weighing public interest versus harm. I have no idea if he has a contingency plan to protect himself — he might — but everything I've heard from him has been opposed to gratuitous disclosures.
As for the Guardian, I've been flying the last 24 hours so am not updated on what they may have done in that regard.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)Out of touch, I guess. Not anymore, I suppose. Good. He'll write something shortly. He can't help himself. I'll watch for it.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)With his character flaws he would be such an easy goat to set up.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)I have a feeling he was going to slaughter some kitties but leave the puppies untouched because he likes dogs, but his editor talked him out of it and the kitties were saved!
randome
(34,845 posts)It's a fact.
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MineralMan
(146,333 posts)by some very serious people. Indeed, that may already be going on. Have we heard from him today?
He may well have stepped in it this time, and this shit doesn't just scrape off one's shoe easily. The smell is horrendous, and nobody want's someone around with a stinky shoe, tracking crap all over the place.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)MineralMan
(146,333 posts)whether he still has classified documents in his possession. If documents containing concrete evidence of US intelligence operations in other countries are in Greenwald's possession, it will be treated extremely seriously. There will be concern that they not be released any further.
Journalistic privilege goes only so far with the folks who are concerned about this.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)MineralMan
(146,333 posts)If so, it has people who can talk to Greenwald if that's what is wanted.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)MineralMan
(146,333 posts) arely staircase
(12,482 posts)but this has got to be embarrasing, but he may be incapable of embarrassment
Recursion
(56,582 posts)This will be an interesting 48 hours or so.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
okaawhatever
(9,462 posts)will be releasing it over the next few months. That made me want to gag anyway because if any of this is truly harmful, why wait to disclose it?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
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treestar
(82,383 posts)He claims to have stuff but is using it for his own benefit, showing he never did care about anything else.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)investigation in the rocket docket of Northern VA. He sure as shit isn't going to be in America anytime soon. I would file a civil suit against him if I were BAH.
eissa
(4,238 posts)Trying desperately to be the next Woodward or Bernstein, and failing miserably.
mimi85
(1,805 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Just because they go after him doesn't mean he failed at anything.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)That lying hack?
MADem
(135,425 posts)'editorial oversight' from an editor who demanded double-sourcing and didn't allow the employees to decide what went in the paper.
Such a quaint notion, that....the whole "double-checking" and "verifying the facts" thing. It's just so ... old school, apparently, these days. Nowadays, it's FIRST!!!!! that is important--not being correct.
randome
(34,845 posts)
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reusrename
(1,716 posts)Recall Scotty's claim that he had asked Scooter and KKKarl about the leak and they denied anything to do with it?
Woodward had personally talked with one or both of them (I cannot recall which) about Plame being Wilson's wife before Novak's column was published. He actually bragged about it when Tim Russert testified. What a useless lying piece o' ...
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)"Inside the NSA’s Ultra-Secret China Hacking Group"
Among the series of stories published in The Guardian last week based on files leaked by former CIA and NSA contractor Edward Snowden, one report highlighted a secret directive to identify potential foreign targets for U.S. cyberattacks. In it, authors Glenn Greenwald and Ewen MacAskill quoted Snowden:
An intelligence source with extensive knowledge of the National Security Agency’s systems told the Guardian the US complaints again China were hypocritical, because America had participated in offensive cyber operations and widespread hacking – breaking into foreign computer systems to mine information.
Provided anonymity to speak critically about classified practices, the source said: “We hack everyone everywhere. We like to make a distinction between us and the others. But we are in almost every country in the world.”
The US likes to haul China before the international court of public opinion for “doing what we do every day”, the source added. [Source]
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)this, it takes it to another level. While all governments assume they are being spied on by other governments, concrete information regarding that is classified at the very highest possible levels. I don't know what Snowden may have in evidence of this, but if he has actual classified documents to this effect, he's stepped beyond mere whistle-blowing.
These reports are alarming, and will be even more alarming to the agencies involved. Nothing is more compartmented than information about actual operations in other countries.
We shall see how this develops, but if true, it could create a serious international uproar.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)straight into treason.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and I'm not happy knowing our government spies on us, but confirmation of activities against a foreign government definitely makes Snowden's actions treason.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)It's a very serious breach of security, though. No question about that. That's assuming, of course, that Snowden actually had documents that revealed things the Chinese didn't already know. That's not certain at all. It could just be a general briefing document, like the others Snowden has revealed through Glenn Greenwald. If so, it will be short on details and long on generalities.
I have no idea what he has.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
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MineralMan
(146,333 posts)If it's just briefing documents, any outrage will be primarily for show.
randome
(34,845 posts)...perhaps we can talk some more about that Taiwan matter."
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MineralMan
(146,333 posts)Either that, or perhaps glasses will be raised and a toast made to an effective distraction from other things. Hard to say.
In public, though, there will be mutual chest beating and noisemaking. That's for sure.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I'm getting a little old for hero worship anyhow. I do, however, deeply appreciate him unveiling our continued slide toward a paranoid spy regime state. He really did provide an invaluable service to the public, both in the US and around the world. The rest of his life will likely be miserable, but he knew that when he let us know what the NSA was doing to us. And I do have an appreciation for that, yes.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of the Chinese government?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)But the US has some long arms. I don't expect him to live a happy life. I might be wrong.
BenzoDia
(1,010 posts)
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)
TREASON!
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)and Counter-terrorism for the United States is guilty of treason too.
Clarke’s flag-raising book — Cyber War — is designed to make us worried that the United States is desperately vulnerable to state- and industry-sponsored cyber intrusions designed to steal information, create damage, and prepare for a wider conflict. At a few moments, however, Clarke admits the United States is no innocent, offering rare frank insights into ongoing U.S. cyber offensives.
Read more: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/in-the-global-cyberwar-china-is-a-dragon-america-is-a-nuclear-stealth-bomber#ixzz2W1o7g69j
Follow us: @motherboard on Twitter | motherboardtv on Facebook
And Richard Clarke is making a profit from selling is book.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)while spoon-feeding them documents detailing our intelligence-gathering efforts?
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Right now all of this is a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)only question is whether the reporter is lying or not.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)In other words, he'd like his new home to be China, so that he can live under the laws of the Chinese government.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Hong Kong retains a separate legal system from China and tradition of free speech.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Hong Kong. And factually I believe he is correct that they have a separate legal system.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)Monkie
(1,301 posts)not sure i want to analyse that to closely to be honest *wink*
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)Snowden handed over classified documents to the Chinese government.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)showed her, the reporter for the South China Morning Post, the documents that corroborated his claim that the US had targeting Hong Kong and mainland civilian infrastructure via hacking. Nowhere are there details revealed about the logistics or nature of the hacking. Nowhere in that article -- or any other article or interview with Snowden -- is there an allegation that he had shared those documents with the Chinese government.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Rupert Murdoch--who still owns a piece of the South China Morning Post pie. Beijing loves him because he knows what side his bread is buttered on.
You know Rupert? Chinese wife? Owns Fox News, the WSJ, a shit load of other papers?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)that Snowden handed over classified documents to the Chinese government, or that he was making such an offer.
randome
(34,845 posts)...information to them. If true, that's just as traitorous as handing over documents.
We don't know if it's true, yet. We also don't know if anything Snowden says is true since he has given us no evidence to support his allegations.
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Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)"Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said."
According to the article the sole person who saw his documentation was SCMP journalist Lana Lam. Ms. Lam is not the Chinese government.
randome
(34,845 posts)So it's close enough, IMO.
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MADem
(135,425 posts)His ownership of the SCMP has the blessing of the Chinese government.
Ms. Lam may not work directly for the Chinese government, but she's wired into the process.
And from whom did Mister Kuok (the Malay rich man) purchase sufficient shares to own a majority of that paper?
None other than Rupert Murdoch--who still has his fingers in the SCMP pie.
Make of that what you will.
FSogol
(45,529 posts)Wonder what the GOP has lined up next? Acorn or back to Benghazi?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
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FSogol
(45,529 posts)
mfcorey1
(11,001 posts)flamingdem
(39,330 posts)that I would not agree with - then this.
He hates big government so he doesn't care if he works for the Chinese.
It's all the same to him.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)
flamingdem
(39,330 posts)was a nasty surprise for them.
Between the repukes and Paulites we have a major insurrection going on.
Neither group seems to care much about their country.
Maybe they'd prefer China!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)-Did Snowden really want to "start a debate"? Perhaps.
-Did Snowden have proper & legal avenues to raise his concerns? Definitely.
-Did Snowden have some other motives in dumping & fleeing? It's looking increasingly like he may have.
-Did Snowden have to flee to Hong Kong of all places? That is the most troubling aspect of this for a lot of us.
This is the image that's starting to emerge, and I don't think Americans will like this anymore than they do NSA snooping.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Please provide a link.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If they're lying, I'm sure he'll let Greenwald know.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)China grevious hacking in the US who would eevn be surprised. Certainly not the Chinese.But at this time I have no reason tho believe the CHinese.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Way to up the game, traitor. Unfuckinreal.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)are still claiming him now
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)I expect to see more.
warrior1
(12,325 posts)also, can they defend him now.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Where are all the people who called Snowden a hero before as well?
How do you like him now?
HipChick
(25,485 posts)
For some reason (snark), I've been humming that song for several days now.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)
JackN415
(924 posts)reorg
(3,317 posts)when "the U.S. government has been HACKING Hong Kong and Chinese networks for years". Hm.
"The international community cannot afford to tolerate such activity from any country," he said.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/12/world/la-fg-worldwide-threats-20130313
Aerows
(39,961 posts)just fine, exactly why? Are we all riding the two wrongs make a right train, or is the Constitution just a piece of paper?
randome
(34,845 posts)That is a much different process than followed by China.
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BenzoDia
(1,010 posts)You, my friend, took the bait.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Snowden committed treason. It doesn't make the spying activities of our own government legal, and never will. They will no doubt be answering for it, regardless. We need to defund the NSA if a two bit spy wannabe like Snowden can get ahold of classified intel, since they obviously can't be trusted with it. Two many hands in the pot.
JackN415
(924 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)you mean Snowden may not be the one who acquired these documents at all? That China did and he took credit for it? Is that what you mean?
Couse that makes a lot more sense than his story to date. he sounds like a doofus, not a double knot spy guy.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)The government better fix this shit, or this shit will be the norm from private contractors who want to be paid to keep their mouths shut.
"Want to play a game?"
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Itchinjim
(3,085 posts)Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)"Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate 'the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries'.
'Not only does it do so, but it is so afraid of this being known that it is willing to use any means, such as diplomatic intimidation, to prevent this information from becoming public.' "
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-snowden-us-government-has-been-hacking-hong-kong-and-china
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)Like Bush & Co never did a thing. He wants to tear down Obama. He doesn't give a shit about transparency.
( credit to poster okaawhatever who gave me this thought in another thread)
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I think it's time to reimpanel the House Unamerican Affairs Committee. Where's Joe McCarthy when you need him?
Cha
(297,727 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)government is merely free speech.
Lemme guess--you thought Alger Hiss got a raw deal?
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)This is clear cut put-it-in-a-dictionary-next-to-the-word TREASON. There is no arguing that point. At all. That you are STILL trying to dance around and act like it's the people going after Snowden who have the problem is stunning.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)we attack routers geebus what a revelation, I'd never have guessed 
thucythucy
(8,087 posts)and how specific they are, and where they eventually end up.
It sounds as though he's providing a list of specific targets (such as the University of Hong Kong). If there are dates attached to that (and even if not) it gives the Chinese valuable intel. on which targets we consider most vulnerable and most valuable. Furthermore, it enables them to go back to re-examine those particular security systems in an attempt to figure out HOW they were hacked. They might not even have been aware that those targets were hacked at all, in which case now they know, and they can work backwards from there.
This story keeps developing, new revelations every day.
Cha
(297,727 posts)leaker.
thanks ProSense
Enrique
(27,461 posts)and the U.S. will lose its worldwide reputation for staying out of other countries' business.
mimi85
(1,805 posts)you're being sarcastic?
Enrique
(27,461 posts)but I figured that "reputation for staying out of other countries' business" was preposterous enough that I could skip it...
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
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Dash87
(3,220 posts)
MFM008
(19,820 posts)what ever you think about the NSA stuff spilling your guts to the Chinese makes you a spy/traitor/double agent, whatever. Now it makes me wonder what else he has SHARED. He said in that interview he could give someone the identity of every agent world wide....Well EDDDD?
PragmaticLiberal
(904 posts)I must have missed that tidbit.
So this guy runs off to China having (allegedly) that kind of knowledge..and then proceeds to broadcast it.....
If I didn't know better I'd say he was just offering his services to the highest bidder
Blue_Roses
(12,894 posts)a game he's not very good at, because the players involved have yet to play their hand. He is incredibly naive if he thinks he has made a friend by revealing US documents to the fucking Chinese! What a goober!
Something is seriously amok with this guy.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Before, the focus was more on the NSA and its programs. Now, the focus will be overwhelmingly on whether he's a traitor. This news makes me sad.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)And on "whether" he's a traitor? That's like saying the focus will be on whether water is wet. This is the absolute textbook definition of treason.
MynameisBlarney
(2,979 posts)Now he's a traitor.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)Did he get laid over in Hong Kong on his way to someplace else, or was this really his destination? I admit to being thoroughly confused by his choice of Hong Kong.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)just sayin....
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)However, the fact that he disclosed information regarding U.S. cyber espionage against China does nothing to legitimize the domestic spying by the NSA.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"However, the fact that he disclosed information regarding U.S. cyber espionage against China does nothing to legitimize the domestic spying by the NSA."
...like to comment on the points made here:
"With today's lawsuit, the ACLU is now attacking Section 215 on three legal fronts"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022997462
That thread is sinking like a stone.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The problem so far is that the constitutionality of the new FISA statutes has not been tested - the courts continue to deny plaintiffs standing because they can't prove harm, because the program is secret. Catch-22.
Hopefully that will change. If the courts say it's constitutional, I will still disagree (as I do with the Citizen's United decision).
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)That is deliberate, intentional treason. It goes slightly beyond "mistake".
Politicub
(12,165 posts)Anyone who defends these latest actions by Snowden isn't worth listening to.
It's one thing if you are a whistleblower, but something entirely different if you trade in confidential information.
There's a reason why he ran like a coward to Hong Kong. I'm sure the Chinese will give him quarter since he is bound and determined to fuck his country over.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)GoCubsGo
(32,095 posts)...they have been hacking ours for decades.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The fact that the NSA program exists is what concerns me.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts)American law". Again, why did this dude flee to Hong Kong?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)
AnnieK401
(541 posts)I am totally shocked, no doubt they are also.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)civilian installations abroad I am interested to see what proof he has(not that I would be surprised because every damn country does that).
As to his actual status of whistleblower it will depend on why he is releasing the information.
If he revealed that info because he believes what his government is doing is wrong, than he is a whistleblower regardless what anyone else thinks. He doesn't even have to be right. All that matters is his state of mind when he decided to reveal the info.
Regardless, its hardly relevant to the actual issue of US government being involved in mega surveillance and collection of data on foreign and domestic targets without cause.
"If he revealed that info because he believes what his government is doing is wrong, than he is a whistleblower regardless what anyone else thinks. He doesn't even have to be right. All that matters is his state of mind when he decided to reveal the info. "
...he'll be a legend in his own mind.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)proof of mass surveillance by a state, legend to someone else, traitor to lots of Americans, etc, etc, etc.
If he revealed this info because he believes that what US government does is wrong than he is a whistleblower to me. YMMV.
I still don't understand why it matters really. It doesn't affect the validity of the information he released one way or another.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Hardly. He might be a hero to Chinese, whistleblower to those who only care that he provided the proof of mass surveillance by a state, legend to someone else, traitor to lots of Americans, etc, etc, etc."
....we shall see. From the OP:
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Your government (and mine) is spying on its own and foreign subjects without any justifiable reason, IMNSHO. I believe that is highly immoral, illegal and has potential for abuse as long as it remains in place and is highly classified.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Why does it matter? Is the info he revealed true? I believe so. Everything else is irrelevant."
He leaked classified information and is now providing it to a foreign entity. You may think this is "irrelevant," but it is a crime, and it may well be treasonous.
"Your government (and mine) is spying on its own and foreign subjects without any justifiable reason, IMNSHO. I believe that is highly immoral, illegal and has potential for abuse as long as it remains in place and is highly classified."
There is no evidence of "spying."
"Illegal"? Is that what you consider "true"?
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)reason.
I believe what he said is true. I also believe it is immoral, illegal and is open for abuse. YMMV.
I believe that 'mega surveillance' is spying. Again, YMMV.
PS. Who he revealed the information to is irrelevant. It's also irrelevant if his action is legal or not.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Snowden alleged that US government is spying on its own and foreign citizens without a justifiable
reason.
I believe what he said is true. I also believe it is immoral, illegal and is open for abuse. YMMV.
I believe that 'mega surveillance' is spying. Again, YMMV. "
...believing Snowden doesn't make the program illegal.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Snowden is hardly the only source, though he is the latest.
The collection of that kind of data in EU is illegal if US obtained information on EU citizens from the servers based in EU.
The legality of the program is questionable even in US itself. As far as I am aware it was never tested in court simply because of the high secrecy of the program. Lets see what is going to happen now.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)idwiyo
(5,113 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)idwiyo
(5,113 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)I declare today to be Fluffy Bunny Slippers Day!
That is not my opinion--that is FACT. Never mind that you won't see it listed on your calendar, or see a Google doodle celebrating the day, or that no one has ever heard of this special and important holiday--it exists, it is a fact, because I say so!
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 14, 2013, 10:46 AM - Edit history (1)
what is and isn't legal. As far as I am aware neither program was tested in court. About the only assurance I have that both of them are legal comes from the people who have the most insentive to lie about it. Sorry, their word alone is not enough for me, though YMMV.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)"Is that all you got?"
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)and specifically how it was done.
Cha
(297,727 posts)ProSense.
Dr Fate
(32,189 posts)I mean, at least he is being even Steven about all this.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Talk about eye being on the wrong ball.
Who gives a flying fuck?
...the OP upset you?
"Talk about eye being on the wrong ball."
Tell me, what is the right "ball"?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The right ball is NOT focusing on one dude.
It is focusing on the issue of the government's relationship to the private lives of its citizens and non-citizens.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"The right ball is NOT focusing on one dude. "
...and you appear upset that people are focusing on this "dude."
...and you appear upset that people are focusing on this "dude."
So you are capable of writing an entire sentence without a link!
"So you are capable of writing an entire sentence without a link!"
...appear to be upset by that too. I mean, is life that empty?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)This happens every time.
There is a news story that looks bad for President and they go wild. THIS IS IT!!!
If you start to dig into the details, they scream FOUL!!! SYCOPHANT!!!!
Then, some piece of information comes out that breaks the narrative, and some of the details become important.
Now, the details about how this doesn't hurt Snowden's credibility start to matter.
And so the hair-on-fire folks want everyone to calm down about this new piece of information.
Snowden goes from "Hero" to "irrelevant" in a matter of hours.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)"Hey look, we hired a private company with a chinese spy as their IT guy to spy on people and now the spy has ratted us out and run to china".. "oh and, you should be really pissed at him".
Oh yeah, looking real good here..
randome
(34,845 posts)The facts appear to be that Snowden and Greenwald's outrageous claims lack credibility. You can start a thread on some other aspect of this but as this is about S&G's incredible claims, it looks like the rest of the world is starting to leave them behind.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Excerpt:
"While not on the roster for Wednesday's hearing, another administration official in the spotlight is Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, whom Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden has singled out for how he answered questions about the telephone surveillance program in March.
In March, Wyden asked Clapper whether the NSA collects "any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?"
"No sir," Clapper said.
On Saturday, Clapper told NBC News that he answered in the "most truthful or least most untruthful manner" possible.
Clapper told NBC that he had interpreted "collection" to mean actually examining the materials gathered by the NSA.
He previously told the National Journal he had meant that "the NSA does not voyeuristically pore through U.S. citizens' e-mails," but he did not mention e-mails at the hearing."
-------------------
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts) 