news, we'll probably hear more about this. In fact, we may hear nothing else for a couple of days.

I was under the impression that the only things revealed so far are those things published in the Guardian and the WaPo. In neither of those articles did I read anything specific to China. That is not to say that there are documents in Snowden's possession that deal directly with China, but I have yet to see it.

Those that are attacking Snowden about revealing info about US spying in China should offer some evidence that is what he has done. I have not seen it yet.

Cheers!

I just heard the 2PM CBS radio news story. They're on it. This will be the lead story on tonight's evening news broadcasts, I'm sure. The pundits will have a field day.

Lately he is the only one I can stand. I didn't like him at first but I was very wrong, he is serious about his work and doesn't seem to follow the leader rw talking point of the day like his idiot colleagues do.

inflated talking points and hyperbolic shite.

See Chris Hayes for slurping out Snowden is like MLK.

Letter from a Hong Kong hotel suite

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/12/letter-from-a-hong-kong-hotel-suite/

I was not aware of this!

and I want to say here thanks so much for being a good friend here and in the BOG.

Lots of good people there and I am very proud to be among you.

that means a whole lot. 'Cause I feel the same about you.

he was on as a guest with Alex on O'Donnell's show.

I had no idea of what transpired earlier in the evening at MSNBC because I don't watch it much anymore.

But, now that you have filled me in on the events, I did notice that Chris and Alex looked, uncomfortable, or embarrassed, or something. They were out of their regular character they usually have in body language. This must have been after the fall out from Hayes Stupidity and they were still adjusting to the shock of being challenged like that.

ah ha.

"It’s much easier to opine from Rio, Skype from Hong Kong, or host an 8 pm chat show. But we won’t let them appropriate history for their own ends. Let them justify their own heroes; ours are already taken."

give the reasons why they need to "get their own heros".

Compare him to Bradley Manning why doncha, Hayes?"

Dr. King lived with the threat of death every day of his public ministry. The fact that he finally was assassinated is merely proof of that. But he faced that life with courage, with magnanimity, with forcefulness. He didn’t write his letter in exile from Havana; he wrote it right there in a Birmingham jail, one of many times he was in jail for acts of conscience. He didn’t abandon the people and country he purported to care about; he lived their lives, shared their fears and hopes, tried to bring justice to a country which had lacked it for so long.

Mrs. Parks didn’t hightail it to Rio to rail against how evil the US government was. After her act on the bus, she accepted the mantle of civil rights symbol, which came with its own dangers. Her home was here, her people were here, and she faced any dangers with the same bravery and grace that Dr. King did.

Liberal Librarian tells them to get their own heroes and exactly why!

Libertarians is so concerned about their rights but not anyone else's.

I can't stand to look at GG. Perhaps, with this new information, I'll give LO another chance to see if he addresses this. Thanks to whomever for the headsup.

He was being pretty professional about it all. You might be able to find a vid of it.

And for the last couple nights he signs off with he does not feel threatened in any way with this NSA stuff lately.

was just googling for o'donnel and greenwald and found it. First time viewing for me too.

and the vid appears here.

So glad to hear someone who identifies as a socialist still recognize the FACTS under which we all live, which is that conservatives outnumber liberals 2 to 1. And the purists screaming at the moderates does FUCK ALL to bring a liberal utopia to this country.

but yeh, what you said.

O'Donnell is something else. He knows who he is but he also knows the world he lives in and doesn't cry like a damn baby about it.

Lots of work to do and I am very grateful there are O'Donnell's in this world. I regret having dissed him in the past, obviously I didn't know who he really is.

Lawrence offerred no follow up question. Seemed to take Greenwald at his word.

Glenn Greenwald seems uncharacteristically quiet today. Perhaps he's waiting for a clue on how he should proceed. It's an uncomfortable position he's in this afternoon.

Maybe the best thing would be for him to have a nice drink at some oceanfront bar and hold up a moistened finger to see which way the wind is blowing. That's what I'd do if I were him.

On the other hand, he may be sitting somewhere and answering pointed questions today.

the old Chinese saying goes. I hope he's buckled up.

The Chinese would love to have the Main Core list I have no doubt.

It's at around 3:20 in the video that's in the following thread's OP: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022994710

Don't see why the Chinese would buy it if it's about to become public knowledge.



-Laelth

one he's not very good at, because the players involved have yet to play their hand. If he thinks he has befriended China by revealing US documents, then he is not only very confused, but incredibly naive.

There is something seriously amok with this guy.

And he's being used to promote others' goals. I won't mention any names, of course. There's no need. Anyhow, I think he's a pawn in a game with multiple players. The dice are being rolled, even now.

I doubt he will find his way out.

Frankly, I'm no longer interested in Edward Snowden. I'm more interested in the people who have been around him. They're interesting, I think, to a lot of people just now.

about Snowden revealing to the Chinese that the US has been spying on them. Clapper and a host of other officials have repeatedly stated over the last few days AS A DISHONEST DEFENSE of their domestic spying activities that the US is only vacuuming up foreign communications. In addition to Richard Clarke's book where he offers that the US is spying on other countries by hacking their networks, you have DOZENS of US officials and elected officials saying the exact same thing. No rational person on Earth could be surprised by this alleged revelation.

Even more to the point, Snowden's revelation of the legal document that exposes the massive NSA domestic spying program does not lose any relevance or importance regardless of what he does from here on out.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with that information, though.

This is a multifaceted story. I'm interested in all facets of it.

losing their minds", speaks only to your urgent need to defend him.

I don't think you're "losing your mind".. you just have a different opinion.

Snowden's revelation of the legal documents that authorize our government to capture and store all domestic electronic communication is still as relevant as it was yesterday. In some respect, one could offer that Snowden is no longer an important part of this story. In short, the original story and Snowden have diverged at this point.

As for the "losing minds" part of my earlier post, that was more of comment on the vitriol and amusing shreiks of "treason" and "traitor" on this and other threads.

The "hero" does something that threatens the PTB's powers and they always start leaking all kinds of nasty stuff about him as they try to run him to ground.

Next I expect that the "pole dancer" will drop from sight and turn up dead in a seedy Hong Kong hotel room with a 9mm hole in her forehead (or two if it's a standard double-tap) and a warning pinned to her body.

Follow the action as Snowdon travels the world on his multiple identities with help from the one true friend he has in a high place and attempts to clear his name and disarm the plot against America.

The closing scene will be our intrepid man of courage receiving the personal thanks and gratitude from the President of the United States for saving the country and possibly the entire world in a secret meeting in the basement of the White House

After which he'll be run down and squashed like a bug by a mysterious fast moving big black SUV on the streets of DC. (I don't care for sequels)

I've read this book before.

spy novels, I'm afraid. Once someone has revealed all he or she has to reveal, that person ceases to be interesting. I think interest in Snowden is fading already, and will move on to other characters now.

Once he has delivered what he is capable of delivering, he's done. He's now permanently out of the loop, and will have nothing more to offer. He's done as a useful tool. Used up intelligence assets aren't that interesting to anyone, really.

“He doesn’t stand a good chance of avoiding extradition,” said Nicholas Bequelin, a Human Rights Watch researcher here. “When all is said and done, the Hong Kong government does cooperate with the United States on these cases. The only thing that could stop it is for China to step in.” Legal and diplomatic experts said it was highly unlikely that China, which has no formal extradition apparatus with the United States, would intervene.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/13/world/asia/nsa-leaker-says-he-will-stay-in-hong-kong-and-fight-extradition.html

My guess is --like the NY Times reports, “If Uncle Sam wants you, Uncle Sam will get you,” said Kevin Egan, a former prosecutor who has since worked as a defense lawyer on extradition cases."

This is just a gut feeling, based on nothing concrete. But IMO the country of Gitmo & drones likely has a cell getting fixed up just for him as we speak. I don't think China wants him. Just a hunch, I may be wrong. And that's OK. All spec right now.

I haven't read any shit about the "pole dancer" but, I hear she is alive and well in Hawai'i telling all about her story.

about it.

...the pole was bugged? Oh, the stories it could tell...

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

"Snowden reportedly showed reporter Lana Lam documents that showed the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. He estimated there were hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and mainland China, including the Chinese University of Hong Kong. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, Snowden said. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3001669

If someone hacked the system of the University where I work (or just about any major University/College with research grants), they’d get a lot of military/tech information. Why do you think the U of HK is any different

That doesn't make sense to me.

contrary to Hong Kong is under the control of China and they do have relations.

But that said, did you not read the "... and mainland China" part?

Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.

Whoa Nellie.

The New York Times has said only this:

"He (Snowden) also said that the United States’ surveillance program had gained access to hundreds of computers in Hong Kong and China since 2009. “We hack network backbones — like huge Internet routers, basically — that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” the newspaper quoted him as saying."

There is no mention in the article that he has passed on specifics. I'm sure that nobody around here is surprised that the US hacks China, and they us, when stated in general terms? China may bluster but surely they KNOW. If we get more that is concrete on this, all right. But haven't seen anything.

------------------------

As for his chances of finding asylum in China, the same NYT article says this:

“He doesn’t stand a good chance of avoiding extradition,” said Nicholas Bequelin, a Human Rights Watch researcher here. “When all is said and done, the Hong Kong government does cooperate with the United States on these cases. The only thing that could stop it is for China to step in.” Legal and diplomatic experts said it was highly unlikely that China, which has no formal extradition apparatus with the United States, would intervene.

Former judges and prosecutors tend to agree that the court system here has almost always granted extradition requests from the United States.

These litigators note that extradition cases are heard in Hong Kong by judges, not juries, whose members might be more easily swayed by Mr. Snowden’s appeals to public opinion.

“If Uncle Sam wants you, Uncle Sam will get you,” said Kevin Egan, a former prosecutor who has since worked as a defense lawyer on extradition cases.

While Mr. Snowden could say that he was the subject of political persecution in the United States, “the judiciary here (China) is notoriously unsympathetic” to such claims, Mr. Egan added.

------------------------

So I think it's a little too soon to see the guy as a Chinese stooge or defector of some kind. But wouldn't that make a great way to deflect from the revelations about domestic spying? That is still the most damaging thing he has done to the US government to this point in time. His comments in Hong Kong included.

Do you really think the abuses we now know are true about US domestic surveillance would have been known other than through a whistleblower?

But I see a lot of people have the long knives out.....

I do not know, which is why I used that word.

...go back to your knife sharpening.

See ya on the next installment of whatever we will officially be fed.

Right now the jury is out.

...but you have to allow for some honest critique of the Prez. On a message board it's so hard to sort out who's real on that and who's a disruptor. So try not to take it so personally--that's how they divide us--playing on emotions and alliances. Stay cool. It's our job to keep the administration and the congress's feet to the fire. We can't do that if we can't honestly criticize the government's policies and actions.

seething hyperbolic hate.

I see discouragement and depression--and fear that we won't get the changes we know this country desperately needs--which is directed just as much at Congress as it is to Obama. OK of course there are some extreme detractors, but that's always the way it is. The majority here are honestly frustrated with the whole situation IMO and need to air legitimate grievances. We are in new territory (historically speaking) with a congress that obstructs the president at every turn. It is unprecedented. And then he compromises with them at times when we wish he wouldn't. There is a whole lot of tension and frustration in America in general now. A lot of desperation. It's reflected here.

Just my view. Hope it helps.

I'd like to see the Guardian use critical thinking skills regarding their relationship with him

Private contractors are interested in profit.

He stood to make far more money continuing at his job. Now? Not so much.

President Obama. Much tastier than staying at a job that he got for 3 months after he had already contacted Greenwald and Laura Poitras

under which Europeans could sue in US courts for violation of their privacy and US corporations in Europe would have to comply with European law on privacy. So far, they haven't had any success.

That was in and of itself a pretty sure indication that the US was rampantly violating the privacy rights of foreign nationals. So why should anyone be surprised if the US is doing it in China.

As I said previously, the people in the intelligence services of various countries probably already know much more about this program than we ever will.

As with so many of these news stories, we are probably the last to know. Snowden is telling us something that shocks us and surprises us. But it probably doesn't shock or surprise governments around the world.

If we are willing to drone people in other countries and invade other countries that haven't invaded us, wouldn't it follow that we would collect phone records and maybe even wiretap in other countries?