It gained over 28,000 signatures in the last 12 minutes and is up to 678,156 signatures now.

I figure the least we can do, even if we think petitions are cheezy, is to sign https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_prism_global/?fp

One thing I like about their petitions is that after you sign, your online handle and a flag icon of your country immediately appear, quickly followed by the same for subsequent signers. Scrolling on this petition was moving pretty fast--not a lot of North or South American nite owls like me, but it was the middle of the day in Europe when I signed.

Just in the minute before I signed, signatures pouring in from:
Austria, Poland, France, Belgium, UK, Portugal, Germany, Netherlands, Greece, Spain, Sweden, Italy Switzerland, Antigua, Brazil, South Africa, Canada, Australia, American Samoa.

I thought once W was out of office, I wouldn't feel called upon to apologize to people in the other countries to which I traveled. AND I CERTAINLY THOUGHT THAT WHEN WE ELECTED A MAN WHO WAS A CONSTITUTIONAL LAW SCHOLAR/PROFESSOR, OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS WOULD BE WELL PROTECTED. That's what makes Obama and his administration's actions in this matter even more humiliating, painful and embarrassing to we REAL liberals than Bush ever was.

A lot of DUers are too young to have followed Watergate as it was happening and being reported in the news. This affair and the administration's writhing, hostile response is so deja vu of Nixon, Haldeman, Mitchell, and crew.

And to have posters on DU pandering, however inanely and weakly, to the administration on this matter is really vile.

to take away ALL political labels and just look at what is going on. Political labels bring too much baggage. And I am not Obama bashing or anything else, just saying often one has to look beyond the political labels ... and that is not easy, I know, I find it very difficult to do.

I took your cue, cheezy or not. It was the least I could do., too

It will be at a million in no time

That is what really bothers the psychopathic rich. They can't control someone with morals and principals.

deluding yourself if you don't think Snowden has not been bought and paid for. I will walk back my words if it does not come out he is being paid to do this. You mark this or whatever it takes.

Don't get me wrong, our constitutional rights are going down the tubes. Citizens United. The s(lower case s)upreme Court of the USA taking our voting rights away and electing Bush 5-4. And I could go on. I am in agreement with all this. Snowden smells like a dead fish on the beach, unless he picked up the smell form Greenwald.

Never thought about the goat thing. That conjures all kind of things. So thanks for the post a few days ago.

who seems to have basically manufactured a crisis.

This is not a party issue. This has to do with the privacy rights ALL Americans enjoy, regardless of their political views.

as Banghazi, the IRS thing and the AP thing. Period. Arnold Snowden has no more moral compass now than he did when he went to work for the mercenary spy agency he did. Mercenary, read scum. Unpatriotic, paid by the highest bidder scum. Now Glenn Greenwald is just about the same class. He enticed this unprincipled young man to betray the company he worked for so he could sell a book. To put either of these in the same sentence with Julian Assnge and Bradley Manning is a huge disservice to the later.

Now, if you want to talk about the erosion of out Constitutional rights, lets start. Lets start with the fact that our government has hired mercenary scum to do surveillance. Scum who sell to the highest bidder. Lets start with the body of men and women who are elected to watch over our rights. The congress. Mostly cowards who are also bought and paid for. Lets talk about a Supreme Court that took our voting rights away from us and made corporations citizens (and by the way, have you seen any of "those citizens" in jail). Lets talk about the knee jerk reactions that have got us to this point. Its OK to do this "stuff" when a tragedy happens, especially on our soil, and we wonder where the hell were our "spy" agencies, lets get more spies and give them more money and power.

Now go sign you petition, and I might too, but don't think that scum Andrew Snowden is a hero. And don't think that scum Glenn Greenwald a great writer and investigator. And ask yourself about the timing of this, as there have others who have come forward.

Are rights are being eroded. We should fight. Fight for the right reason.

The Drs Paul, Glenn Beckk & Ed Snowden should not be the people they rally around.

Snowden & Beck got this in the public eye.

But it's interesting you don't make the same type of allowances for the President.

Obama came into office with this program in place & up and running. It follows the law, it's been upheld be the courts, and it has supposedly been producing valuable leads against potential terrorists. The fact that they couldn't get Snowden - in spite of the fact that he's been talking to a correspondent for a foreign newspaper for almost 6 months, and his coworkers knew about his disillusionment he felt about his job - is proof enough that the NSA IS NOT listening in to everyone all the time everywhere.

Listening to everyone all of the time is NOT the same as RECORDING EVERYONE ALL THE TIME! The latter is what will make us ALL subject to abuse, even if it isn't used on us in real time and go after us when we're saying things. I would argue that is what is being hidden, and that this is more about having power over people to make them do what you want to do rather than stopping terrorism (which is the excuse that too many SAPS swallow when their president is in the White House -- Many Rethugs under Bush, and some but TOO MANY Dems under Obama).

If it was so efficient in catching terrorism before it happened, why didn't it stop the Boston bombing, or all of these shooting rampages we've been seeing lately?

Just because it follows some CORRUPT LAW THAT IGNORES THE CONSTITUTION (like the Patriot Act), and upheld by corrupt courts (who here wants to say that the Supreme Court follows the constitution after Citizen's United decision?), and someone spoonfeeds you that it has helped produced valuable leads doesn't mean it's true. These are the same people that were telling Senator Wyden in his act of perjury then that NO data was being taken on all Americans when testifying before Congress.

A lot of what is in place would have been ILLEGAL many years back before the Patriot Act, and a different set of judges would have been saying what was being done wasn't constitution or following FISA court guidelines (that was revised to the point of being useless after the Patriot Act and other subsequent legislation).

The bottom line is that we need to "refresh" the 4th amendment so that it can be made more explicitly to apply to today's environment and not allow for and weasel wiggle room that is being used too much to try and work around it today, much like corporate personhood jerks weaseled around the more generic "persons" term of the 14th amendment to justify their judicial activism that could have been avoided if that one phrase in the 14th amendment was written as "natural persons" instead.

I know a lot of what is in place is not of Obama's doing. But instead of working with the principles of what we thought we'd elected him to use in his governance, he's taking the power that was given to him and amplifying it in arguably unconstitutional ways instead of fixing this problem. The last thing we need to do is "bless" him doing this because he's one of our party and not a Republican. And many opportunist right wingers are using this against him, and he has only himself to blame for that!

That's not to say that we party members don't go after the other ludicrous crap that the partisan Republicans are going after him with (Benghazi, birtherism, and IRS "scandals&quot . But in situations like this, Obama needs to own up to his MISTAKES in making these problems worse instead of fixing them. The clock is ticking. We don't want to work against him, but if he continues being defensive, he's going to give many of us that believe in the constitution and the principles of civil liberties and being an American over "party" much choice.

Director of Intelligence, incredibly, Clapper among other despicable Republicans. All of course hate whistle blowers as they have a lot to hide. But it's amazing to see them embraced by the 'liberals' who once despised them while attacking good Democrats like Alan Grayson. If they want to defend our civil liberties, Ari is hardly the man to look to, or King or Clapper. I put my faith in Democrats, like Ron Wyden and Alan Grayson, Uda, Conyers among others.

Most would have hated COINTELPRO who use the same kind of tactics as the right wing does to discredit the left wing.

Most liberals were doing or should have been doing the things that the COINTELPRO people were investigating. Protesting segregation. Protesting the VietNam war. Supporting Martin Luther King to the max. But most liberals back in those days wanted COINTELPRO to do what they did. Everyone, or most, wanted the red menace out. Go McCarthy. People hated the long haired dirty hippies who knew all the four letter words except soap. Who wanted the SDS? Who supported the Southern Christian Leadership Council? Or Stokely Carmichael? Who wanted all these groups? So COINTELPRO was brought in.

So even 50 years and more ago, we were asking for our rights to be taken away.

talking points.

I would think a cursory search about COINTELPRO would show I know what I am talking about. They have been around since the FBI was formed.

Talk to me about the nuances. Please.

COINTELPRO was an FBI intelligence program to copy the face of letters and packages without a warrant. A warrant was only required for the contents. What they kept secret from the post office is that they were opening hundreds of thousands of pieces of mail and copying them. I remember the hearings.

If you fast forward to PRISM, it is COINTELPRO on steroids. And unlike the FBI program, the data is being collected by private corporation to be shared through Fusion Centers with big business and foreign nations. Congress will have zero oversight on the private corporations.

"But what is particularly significant about the media campaign is the explicitly anti-democratic and authoritarian arguments that are being advanced to condemn him."

First you and your ilk claim this this is all old news (without denying it); then you attempt to dismiss it as "manufactured", as in made up. Can't have it both ways. And if his revelations were old news, the US govt. evidently "forgot" to share it with European governments:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/snowden-im-not-hiding-from-justice-234000.html

Meanwhile, the EU has warned President Barack Obama’s administration of “grave adverse consequences” to the rights of European citizens from the huge US Internet surveillance programme, officials said.

Viviane Reding, the EU’s justice commissioner, wrote a letter to US attorney general Eric Holder demanding “swift and concrete” answers about the spy scheme when they meet in Dublin tomorrow. She set out seven detailed questions about the Prism spy programme, which were leaked by Snowden and revealed by The Guardian and Washington Post newspapers last week.

“Programmes such as Prism and the laws on the basis of which such programmes are authorised could have grave adverse consequences for the fundamental rights of EU citizens,” she wrote.

Reding said that “given the gravity of the situation” she expected “swift and concrete answers to these questions” at her meeting with Holder. The EU official also warned that the European Parliament “is likely to assess the overall transatlantic relationship also in the light of your responses”.

for the "Ron Paul...Ron Paul" bogeyman. It's a talking point used over and over again (along with "Naderite...Naderite&quot as if you think running around with "Hair on Fire" repeating that is going to force people here to stop voicing their opinions for fear of getting tarred with the "Paul/Nader Scarlet Letter" on their chests?

Republicans Obama has placed in positions of power AFTER we threw them out. Is there some reason why those 'liberals' not only appear to have no problem with THOSE Republicans, but are actually DEFENDING them, Clapper eg, a real Bush man, unlike Paul.

There is some real hypocrisy going on here. Why would they hate ONE Republican but not all the others Obama has appointed to his cabinet? Can anyone explain that to me? The disconnect is stunning.

those republicans are speshul.

gone terribly wrong.

If Obama= A Democrat and Republicans are his friends, then those Republicans=Democrats.

Just like if an 80's Republican conservative registers as a Democrat, and Democrats are said to be progressive, then an 80's conservative neo-liberal president=a progressive - simple really.

When he started talking about private contractors and the inability of Congress to provide oversight, I really began to get angry. This is COINTELPRO privatized and on steroids.

These are neoliberals. Which are closer to being neoconservatives than they are to actual liberals and progressives.

and they despise being called out at that.

They're authoritarians.

...if he provided evidence. Not even proof, just evidence.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

One of the "Top Secret" slides of the Prism surveillance program? A program that the NSA acknowledges exists?

These companies deal with millions of customers daily. They probably receive, let's say a handful of warrants on a daily basis.

Now they could get the information, put it on a CD-Rom drive (really, who uses those any more?) or they could set up a secure server for the NSA to get the data.

Which way sounds more efficient and less time consuming?

'Collection directly from the servers' is not the same thing as saying that the NSA is snooping on the world's Internet traffic.

If Snowden were to offer even the slightest bit of evidence, we would all be on board with him. Say, a personal email from Obama. It's not like Snowden is shy about breaking laws, right?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

The idea that it's okay to be less diligent with the data belonging to non-citizens is certainly something to be discussed. I can imagine some countries in the EU are not happy to learn of this.

On the other hand, there are countries in the EU who are doing the same. So, like I said, let them work it out among themselves.

But in this country, the NSA does not appear to be doing anything on the order of 'spying' that Snowden and Greenwald claimed.

If they are, let's see some evidence and go where it leads us.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

No one ever claimed the NSA or any other spy agency is perfect or does not over-reach. When they do over-reach, slap them down for it. No problems here.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

that's a problem. (2 problems actually)

I know they review and approve the NSA's procedures but do they know the details of this ruling, too?

It may not be enough to satisfy some but if they do, then all three branches of government are hashing this out so that's some measure of confidence in the system.

Maybe not enough, I can see that.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

Top-secret Prism program claims direct access to servers of firms including Google, Apple and Facebook

Is not the same as "'direct access' to internet traffic.

First bullet point:
Top-secret Prism program claims direct access to servers of firms including Google, Apple and Facebook

You say:
There is, however, 'direct access' to specific servers

Show me where the article says that the NSA is spying on the entire internet. That others may have jumped to that conclusion is not the fault of Greenwald or the Guardian.

Let's take a look at it:

Snowden claims the NSA can see your thoughts as they form. That is not even in the same universe as downloading material from a secure server.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

You were asked which sentence of the article reveals misinterpretation, you named one, I proved you wrong, and you changed the subject. I don't think you have even read the article that the Guardian published. You just keep bringing up something Snowden said in an interview knowing that the documents printed so far by the Guardian are only a few of the thousands they were given. You have no argument and can only change the subject. Pathetic.

if a warrant says, you can spy on everyone all the time, you only need one...

The metadata is encrypted and includes no names or other identifying information. It consists of numbers and timestamps.

It cannot be viewed except with a legal warrant that specified the numbers wanting to be viewed.

I don't see that as 'spying'. 'Spying' to me means looking at stuff. They are not allowed to do that except with a legal warrant.

The initial warrant is only for the telecom companies to furnish the metadata, which they keep on their own servers.

A corporation doesn't even need a warrant to go snooping on your personal activities. The NSA does.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

because that is how i read it.

thanks to these leaks some programs have been exposed.
we have proof clapper lied.
we have proof mueller said one thing in public that directly contradicts what he said in private to lawmakers.

my reading of this, how the government is playing semantic games to tell the truth while lying is this.

everything is stored permanently, no warrant or probable cause is needed to store everything about everyone,
and then when they do have a suspicion, their probable cause, they get the warrant and rewind your life.
now you might be happy that your president has this power, but what if it was nixon, or bush.

the history i have read is the reason i am deeply suspicious of any government wishing to have the kind of powers states like the US are claiming for themselves, if the US can do it, so can any tyrant anywhere, if the laws mean nothing, international law means nothing.
if people do not understand how dangerous this is, and how the policies of the US feed a swamp of discontent around the world, then the US is doomed, and i fear a doomed US will destroy the whole planet out of spite and fear and loathing.

I'm fine with the safeguards put into place which, incidentally, were enhanced from Bush's original desire to wiretap anyone at will.

And I'm fine with even more safeguards being added.

As for Clapper, he was in a difficult position. He is required to keep certain things secret but then fumbled when asked about it in public.

I don't recall what Mueller said but I would bet it's the same type of Catch-22 position.

I'm still awaiting the 'doom' that has been prophesied but I'm not watching the skies for it.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

What we learned in there," Sanchez said, "is significantly more than what is out in the media today."
...
"I can't speak to what we learned in there, and I don't know if there are other leaks, if there's more information somewhere, if somebody else is going to step up, but I will tell you that I believe it's the tip of the iceberg," she said.

He appears to be tasked with or solely focused on the semantics angle at this particular point in time. He is simply running the same modus operandi as the NSA and others in regard to the language being used.

Cheers!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

You would not support him, because he has produced evidence and you are struggling hard to try to dismiss it. The president has acknowledged that what he exposed were 'leaks'. If your claims that what he released is 'old news' then take it up with the President. He disagrees with you.

You still don't publish classified information and you still don't give classified documents to the Chinese government.

Face it, Snowden has been full of shit from the start. His resume is bogus and his claims are bogus.

Something is wrong in the head with this guy. You can believe in him all you want, it seems like the rest of the media world is ready to move on to something real.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

original interpretation of that slide.

as Prism. None, nada, zip. We simply don't know because it's top secret. You and your source are speculating.

Today, Greenwald writes:

In Greenwald's defense, even he admits it.

the possibility of direct access (meager at best) with Obama's plan to eliminate privacy as we know it. Does it?

First you and your ilk try to dismiss this as old news - "everybody knew it years ago"; now here you are demanding evidence.

Encrypted numbers, no names and can only be accessed with a legal warrant for specific information.

The 'direct access' claim is ludicrous.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

but don't call me a shitbag. The the shitbag is Snowden. A mercenary scum who went to work for and outsourced spy agency who does not have a patriotic line in their company directives. Snowden is the shitbag. Watch out that some that shit does not hit you in the face. Think about what you are saying. Our rights are being eroded and you are making a hero of a shitbag piece of scum.

that. BE one.

To attack someone savagely is to "attack ferociously and maul".

The faux liberal/administration apologists here on DU are not what I'd characterize as ferocious attack dogs, based on the content of their posts. They are more akin to some mindless pup chasing its tail in a circle - attacking the messenger on nonsensical grounds (he wasn't friendly with some neighbors!) and ignoring the content.

I agree with your point and imagery. I don't even read their drivel because it's a total waste of time. My ignore button has been getting alot of exercise lately

-Laelth

haven't seen much of wsws since Hannah Bell got a new name.



Sid

cannot be liberal.

Many are even right wing but of the statist orientation rather than anti-government persuasion and have found little purchase in the TeaPubliKlan party that moved to hardcore promotion of anti-government prime directive so they have hopped the fence or at this point, grown up on this side of the fence and attempt to weave their bullshit into our fabric since we believe in government as a necessary tool to order a society.

These people when they find themselves in high office operate in concert with the Bush Big Government regressives to the point that they are one and the same in many critical matters and we see the same wicked motherfuckers (not ideologically similar but literally the same bastards) in top positions, particularly in law enforcement, clandestine operations, and anything doing with security and "intelligence". Ideologically similar but different faces are reserved for those with juice in economic matters.

and thank you for that song! I never heard it before and love it.

my dear Zorra

We're going to get to that mountaintop together.

So glad you like the song.

I continue to call Mr. Snowden a hero. Ideally it shouldn't have had to come to this but I think that Snowden correctly assumed that the only way to get these government spying programs out in the light of day was to take this step. Going through normal channels wouldn't have worked. Yes we had certain information that this government spying was happening but few realized it's extent and I think that even members of Congress were surprised.

Was what Snowden did illegal? Well it might be but if so I would put it in the category of civil disobedience. There have been times in our history where civil disobedience was necessary to right a wrong and this case is one of them.

You know, I used to buy the propaganda that this is a free country, but no more. Edward's brave act has really opened my eyes. This may continue to be the home of the brave, I'll give you that but it certainly is no longer the land of the free. I had never thought that we would get to the point where I am sitting here at my computer wondering if it's safe for me to type something or if the government will go after me for it. We may as well kiss the First Amendment goodbye. And thank you Edward Snowden for helping to open my eyes.

This is not meant as a rant against Barack Obama. After all the Republicans started us down this road and I have no doubt that if McCain or Romney were in the White House things would be worse. I voted for Barack Obama twice and would do it again. But something needs to be done about the surveillance state.

No one's perfect. I don't care if he leaves the cap off his toothpaste in the morning or anything about his personal life. It took immense courage to do what he did. He, of all people, knows exactly what he's up against and how easily they'll track him down but he followed his conscience and bravely stood up against the most massive machine in this world.

Can you imagine being Edward Snowden? Can you imagine being in his shoes?.... Against the most powerful entity on the planet?

But probably I would have chickened out. I don't know. He gave up a good paying job in Hawaii and he knows now that he will probably never be back unless it's in handcuffs. But I do think that he will have a good place in history now and millions of people around the world do admire him.

He's going to be one of the most hunted man on the planet for many years now, never daring to reveal his whereabouts as if he were a criminal while mass murderers like Kissinger and Rumsfeld roam free.

K&R

Folks would gather round the gallows and yell "Kill! Kill! Kill!" to the person about to lose his life by hanging. And yes, right here in this country.

Red smears, throwing around the word traitor, saying he'll get what he deserves. But yet it's "old news" and nothing to see here. So disgusting. Their circular logic has given me two headaches today. But perhaps this will be the end of the neocon bullshit around here. They just suck the life out of every thread.

I'm glad the world disagrees.

It's weird to see that retorts to my posts came from ignored people, but they'd have been headache-inducing. The good news is that there are a great many eloquent and insightful people posting in threads, and the recs show an overwhelming majority for the non-propagandized. When you can read them without having to read the propagandists the effect is uplifting.

And yes, some of the writing has been great and the responses as well. I thought about putting those people on ignore but then realized I would miss all the nefarious talking points. I'm glad people are standing up to their insanity. It's been a long time coming. When you're willing to throw everything including health care, tax breaks for the wealthy, the rule of law, Social Security and now the Constitution and the Founding Fathers under the bus all for undying love for one man, there is a big old problem. I thought they were just authoritarians, but now I see it is more akin to monarchists. Protection of the king above all else.

people from around the world are signing it ..the stated goal is to have 1 million people sign in 48 hrs..853k so far.. the broad range of citizens around the world is amazing...the world is talking about this right now and we needed to have this conversation no matter what our msm tells us ..no matter what the naysayers say. It feels like the citizens of the world are coming to our assistance. that's what it feels like to me anyway

Most of us cut across the spectrum sometimes. I'm so radical in some areas I can't even discuss it because I suspect our friends at DU may take offense. I go to anti war demonstrations and I find Ron Paul admirers, and the same applies to civil rights. Some "liberals" are so monochromatic they complain if I play Kim Yong Style, and others defend Josef Stalin, the same way rightwingers sing praises to Donald Rumsfeld and Otto Reich. I think some individuals are just scared and want daddy to protect them and they will allow the safety first motto to turn them into slaves. And some just loooove to look the other way. It's so easy.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

Later they are saying don't shoot the messenger. But they were the first to bring up his character.

I'm amazed at the vitriol of his supporters, really. This is the 10th thread complaining that he's being vetted. Yet how many threads on the first or second day went on about his heroism?