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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSnowden says that the "U.S. government" has already found him guilty of "treason."
However, the laws against treason clearly don't apply to his case and neither the Courts nor the Obama administration have said they do.
And neither the Courts nor the Obama administration have made any pronouncements of his guilt.
So what does this tell us about Snowden's willingness to exaggerate and/or lie to make a point?
Whisp
(24,096 posts)what a putz.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)make him a hero not a putz.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Real Traitors .. help me here
Whisp
(24,096 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)We would see his minders in the background in sunglasses
Cha
(297,274 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Anthony Bourdain gets competition. However, it will only be Chinese food for the next 50 years of the show.
polly7
(20,582 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)and charged with stealing classified documents. (Not the crime of treason.) And he would be presumed innocent, although his own statements while he has been in Hong Kong could be used against him.
hlthe2b
(102,283 posts)11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)the press, he provided top secret documents to the Soviets.
hlthe2b
(102,283 posts)And it has been claimed that this young man has or plans to hand materials to the Chinese...
You do realize that Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanson were far more recent convictions of espionage, do YOU NOT? Robert Hanson's conviction was in 2002!
Exaggeration goes two ways and while I can appreciate your POV with respect to Snowden, having not fully formed my own opinion as yet, to downplay the seriousness of what may face him as a means to discredit says far more about those doing than anything about the veracity or motivation of this young man.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)he simply isn't taking the chance.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)have accused him of treason -- nor will they. He hasn't committed treason.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)the word traitor and treason is being thrown around a lot from the DC beltway.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)And the law against treason clearly doesn't apply in his case.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and the United States government can make the case since he is on foreign soil now.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)And he won't, because the law clearly doesn't apply.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)so that is why Snowden isn't taking the chance. I wouldn't trust Holder with my life because apparently going after marijuana dispensaries is vital to domestic security than the banksters that crashed our economy.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Whatever Snowden thinks about Holder, he is making a false claim about the US government already having declared him guilty.
Cha
(297,274 posts)to have a penchant for exaggerating(not sure why that isn't lying?).
Keep digging Snowden.. you're such a martyr.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts).
An act of treason. Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.)
.
Hes a traitor. House Speaker John Boehner (R-Oh.).
Asked whether he agreed with Nelsons description of Snowdens leak as an act of treason, [Georgia Republican Sen. Saxby] Chambliss replied: If its not, its pretty damn close.
This guy thinks he has a higher morality, that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason. former U.N. ambassador John Bolton.
There are others. It seems we have finally achieved bi-partisanship however over all of this, so that's something I suppose.
treestar
(82,383 posts)There are no cases pending no matter how much hot air comes out of Congress - they don't have the power to start a prosecution.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)Hey, I got a bridge to sell ya out in Brooklyn!
hlthe2b
(102,283 posts)That said, espionage can likewise carry a death penalty. So those who downplay the potential for our judicial system to deal with him and deal with him harshly (regardless of how you come down on Snowden and his "deeds" are likewise misinformed.
Treason is very specific in its legal definition and requirements. But espionage is not.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)and said the U.S. government had already found him guilty of it. Which is false.
I think if he had remained anonymous -- and it was the US government outing him now -- he could have made the argument that the US government had acted to prevent him from having a fair trial. Instead, he -- by his own actions -- has made it difficult for any defense team to argue that he didn't steal and release classified documents.
hlthe2b
(102,283 posts)I am right in the middle in terms of my viewpoints on this entire issue, but using that to suggest anything except that he is scared (as he very well SHOULD be) of what future prosecution he may face and not trained in the law is to push a bias that is not remotely reasonable. It is true that the word "treason" has been used by Senators and other Congress creatures who damned well should know better (or know enough to be careful with their words).
Regardless of how one feels about Snowden, to downplay what this country CAN do to prosecute him is likewise ignorant. As I mentioned upstream, few here realize that the Rosenbergs (and nearly every other major similar prosecution to date, including Aldrich) were charged with espionage, not treason.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I dont look at this as being a whistleblower. I think its an act of treason. Senate Intelligence Committee chair Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.)
.
An act of treason. Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.).
Hes a traitor. House Speaker John Boehner (R-Oh.).
Boehner is Speaker of the House. If I were accused of treason by the Speaker of the House, I would take that as a sign, since members of both parties appear to agree with him, that my chances of being charged with treason were higher than usual.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)They are not "the government."
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)So who does? If Congress has no power, and the President has no power, who does?
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)John Boehner doesn't have any legal power to charge someone with treason, as you know.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Th1onein
(8,514 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)and who the fuck cares? gad, the pettiness is pathetic.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)it puts into question all his claims.
cali
(114,904 posts)your misleading posts.
hlthe2b
(102,283 posts)can likewise carry a death penalty.... You doubt that? Ask the descendents of the late Ethel and Julius Rosenberg.
Or the linked page from this well respected legal text below:
http://books.google.com/books?id=75m64KF4l_4C&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=treason+espionage+Aldrich+Rosenbergs&source=bl&ots=c0p3TeEIS_&sig=YcK66qymIkHWEleM8qh5BfSuQn8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_EO_Ua-0MaKUywGGo4HQDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=treason%20espionage%20Aldrich%20Rosenbergs&f=false
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)irrelevant. What matter are the documents that which are released and what they show regarding the actions of the Government.
Also of importance regarding the credibility of his claims, are those who have backed him up, other Whistle Blowers like Drake, Ellsberg, Binney among others.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)His interpretation of the documents is that the government has "direct access" to the main servers -- but that is not what the documents say. The documents refer to "servers" that could simply be the "lockboxes" for specific information that others have described.
So his credibility, or lack thereof, is key.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the data of Americans. The defense offered is that the NSA obtained a warrant using the FISA Court. That is impossible since the FISA Court has no jurisdiction over Domestic Intelligence.
The technicalities of the other issues, internet data gathering, can only be determined in hearings where experts in the field can clarify the questions being asked.
And whether he is technically correct (and so far the defense of hiring someone with barely any formal education has been that he was 'brilliant' in this area) regarding 'servers' or 'lockboxes', the question still remains, what business does the government have collecting and storing any data without probable cause?
All any Whistle Blower does when they release documents is to begin a conversation and hopefully all the answers will be made available to the public.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)'collecting and storing' data on Americans. They have defended it as 'legal' claiming they got a Fisa Warrant. That isn't legal.
Defenders are the ones emphasizing the legality of the collection of this domestic data by insisting they got a warrant using the FISA Bill. Now maybe they didn't know that the FISA Bill is for Foreign Intelligence, but this has been the defense.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)but in their effort to do so with such vigor only exposes how silly their arguments come off to a rational observer.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)that Snowden worked with in the NSA would be calling it treason. And of course prominent Rethuglicons are doing it publicly. The "treason" rhetoric is everywhere. But that's what it is--rhetoric. They don't care whether it really applies in a legal sense. It's all about how it resonates in the court of public opinion.
It's not a wrong assumption to say that he could be tried for treason, even if he were found innocent of it. All his statement tells me is that he has a lot of perfectly legitimate fear.
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)On the first day of the G8 too, now there's a coincidence.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Lint Head
(15,064 posts)Dick "Go Fuck Yourself" Cheney.
treestar
(82,383 posts)MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)But it does look as if he is vying for victim instead, though.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Tragic what they do to child stars.