they are racist.

You should edit your remarks. 'They' as in the op, can not fairly be labeled as racist any more than I can label you as some odious person.

Jurors note. "Odious prejudice to say that" is not a personal attack, it is an opinion about the message.

... in the context of another thread which speculates that racism may motivate some liberal discontent with the NSA programs.

Because we have learned from the talking point of the day this is the answer...almost like 24 is the answer

Then Congress should be pushed to either repeal the Patriot Act and the FISA provisions or start exercising oversight properly. Congress slammed this stuff together after 9/11, handed it to the executive, and tried to wash its hands of any responsibility. At some point, they need to do their jobs.

These guys who make a career of representing the people, when they have little concept of what the little people go through, have already proven worthless. The most we'll get out of them is a little theater.

I think what we really need is direct democracy. If these bums want to play the game that our founding fathers couldn't have foreseen the internet when they wrote about the 4th Amendment, maybe we should turn the tables on them because, with the internet, we don't need them to represent us. We can represent ourselves.

But you're right, at some point, they need to do their jobs and if they won't, or they can't, they need to go.

it can NEVER be made secure and their is no way for any citizen to oversee the count

i think hand counted votes would give us different reps in some cases

visit blackboxvoting or bradblog to read on that

When it comes to voting, I believe in the old paper ballots, counted in front of everyone afterwards like they do in many countries. Hand counted votes, like you said lol.

but if i font my idea and you font ur idea and a million others do the same someone or something will have to count how many peops are behind same idea right?

want the nsa to have that power?

internet is great for exchange of info and ideas(or at least it would be without the current violations of the 4th) but be careful about suggesting changes to the law of the land from representative to direct because in real life there is no way to physically do it w/o net and we know there are programs where one person can pretend to be 500 different personas

just saying,questioneverything

to beat on the President like some do here. I don't agree with everything he does and I support him on other things. In reality, he has accomplished a Sisyphean task given the Congress he has tried to work with. Part of Congress are calcified careerist and the rest are insane and rabid zealots who are hellbent on poisoning the waters. They need to do their jobs. They are part of a system in which the presidency is only one part. There is a tendency for people to want to use the President as a lightning rod for all of their frustrations on both sides of the political spectrum. Congress has managed to make itself fade from the political scene and become background. They are dismissed when it comes to pointing out their role with the "Oh, him..." kind of reference you give to the dotty uncle at family reunions.

We are remiss if we do not start focusing on this next election. We cannot afford to have more Teabaggers and more years of the same old same old.

but I'm not inclined to beat him over the head with this because it's a systemic problem. I hold him responsible for expanding things and legalized things that never should have because he's the guy with "the buck stops here" on his desk (except that it doesn't really stop there). And Congress has pretty much been cut out of the loop from above which only slightly excuses their pathetic performance because it was their job to demand to represent us. Instead they just threw their hands up and went back to dialing for dollars.

I blame the problem higher than the Presidency. Anyone in the Oval Office is the President of the huge US of A corporation working on strategic and operational plans that were signed off on before he became President. I want to know who's sitting on the board of directors keeping track of the progress on those plans. The people with multibillion fortunes in this country, the 1%, aren't going to leave their money to the whim of the results of our elections every 4 years. They have long-term strategic and operational plans and I believe that's where we need to look.

Look how unwilling Obama seems to be about any involvement in Syria. I don't think he wants to at all. But he dragged his feet on it so they brought Clinton out to call him a wuss if he didn't. I found that scandalous. Over 15 years ago, they wrote the plans to knock down 7 countries in 5 years to get their hands on all that oil. Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran.

They didn’t pull off their ambitious "7 countries in 5 years" plan but the plan is still moving along, despite Obama's reticence on Libya and now on Syria. Both of those countries are on his watch. Who's pulling the strings here? My answer is Dick Cheney's shadow government run by the Military Industrial Complex. And no President can stop them until we clean house of all this corruption starting with all the Intelligence Chiefs and the House and Senate Intelligence Committee who've been acting as a shield and dictating things to the rest of the Congress that started fading out of the picture under Reagan. Most of President Obama's appointments to critical positions have been awful. There are too many Bush people in his administration and too much reliance on neoconservative advice. He didn't campaign like that so how is this happening? I don't think those are the people he wanted or needs on his team but the buck stops somewhere.

That's how I see it.

reply title To which I might add that Congress does still have the power of the purse also and can use its budget and appropriations processes to end components which it determines no longer serve the public interest.

My compliments on incisively cutting to the heart of the matter with a scalpel-like intensity.

...then Congress should just refuse axny funding of the NSA until the Obama Administration comes clean.

this is just a fake scandal of 10 year old information

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of the NSA apologists. Another is: "we can't put the genie back in the bottle", and more nonsense such as, "no use fighting it" from the "Reality Based Community" on DU.

LOL....yea, they're a joke. The good little germans wouldn't recognize reality even if it bites them in the ass.

repeated so often. They need some new talking points. Looks like they are trying a new one today, but it seems about as effective as all the others they've tried.

The reason none of their talking are working is because they are attempting to defend the indefensible. That is a terrible position to be in, so you have to have some sympathy for them I suppose.

But they sure are busy and I'm sure they won't quit because there is so much more we don't yet know that they desperately need to hide. It won't work. Sooner or later it will all come out. And history will not be kind to anyone who participated in or tried to defend these egregious violations of the Constitution.

Through all this kerfuffle, you have proven to be interested in protecting my rights. I hereby thank you and wish you all the best.

I have a feeling we will win this battle and see some restoration of our rights. It won't be easy, but freedom never is. But with you on our side, it will be easier than if you were opposed.

and all the other people here who understand what's at stake and want their children to grow up in a decent world. Together we'll get there. I know we will. Thank you my friend


That which we do not resist we will be forced to accept.

...they can investigate themselves as to why they can't perform their oversight responsibilities.

Do I have that right?

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But some people in Congress ARE trying to buck the system, and support/protest in large and strong numbers allows people like Udall and Wyden to widen the discussion, hold hearings, and do things like requestioning Clapper about his ridiculous lie to them.

Consider this as trying to work within the system, which is what a lot of people both supportive and not supportive of the spying would like to try first before moving to more extreme measures. I personally think this is too far out of bounds and the forces at work too big to be reined in, but we try this now before we try something like a new constitutional convention.

However, up to now they have been gagged and as Nadler and Wyden, Scott and others have said, because they can not publicly explain to the people what their serious concerns are, those, like Cheney eg, who support spying on the people, have the gall to say that 'Congress oversees this'. Those Progressive Dems, who I trust a whole lot more than Republicans like Cheney and Fleischer, say that is pure BS, but until they are free to speak out, this lie will continue to be told.

First thing they have asked for is that they be released from the gag they are under. First there should be hearings covering that and then we will get to see who supports Cheney/Bush/King/Fleischer and who supports the US Constitution. Then the people will have a chance to weigh in and use their power to force their Reps to support some transparency and release all of the them from the silence that has been imposed.

The very fact that Congress is not allowed to speak publicly about policies that affect all of us, demonstrates how scared they are of the people knowing what they are up to.

Imo, it's all about money for the Multi-Billion-Dollar Corps who would go out of business if they weren't kept busy collecting phone numbers. And that is probably what they are trying to hide. Because they sure have failed miserably so far to explain wtf collecting phone numbers, easily available in the phone book has to do with protecting the American people.

How come they didn't have the phone number of the Boston Bomber among all those millions of phone numbers of innocent people, unlike him who was on their radar?

I am glad to see so many people demanding that Congress do their jobs.

Americans for Limited Government and FreedomWorks become "civil liberties" organizations?

Freedom is a bipartisan issue. Unfortunately, the same appears to be the case for totalitarianism.

Thank you for the list.

the tide is turning

'Cuz it ain't going away no matter how much they try to rationalize it.

are under public pressure. This is encouraging.

Thank you Catherina.

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commendation.

Call this hate this days...nothing to see here, really.

Librarians have felt the pressure of surveillance since 9/11; I'm sure my colleagues voted overwhelmingly for Obama both times but principles trump personalities.

Thanks for the thread, Catherina.