General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm beginning to think the NSA, CIA, et. al. are bad ideas. Talk me down.
I've been wondering, what if Intelligence were to be crowd sourced instead of opaque?
It seems to me the problem with these agencies is that whomever has the reins of these organizations has tremendous effective power to shape the world as they see fit. The authoritarian's wet dream.
The way classified material is organized yields an organizational structure that can be visualized as a man of war jellyfish. The tentacles each with their own targets and purpose, but unlike the jellyfish these tentacles are steerable from on high.
The situation we have now is very troubling to me. My suspicion is that the NSA is operating a "Slurp-N-Burp" (tm) where communications are slurped up and stored, and then once a target is identified the entire stream of their past communications is available in its full glory. We have confirmation that this is done for a segment of the US population. We don't have it fully divulged as far as I know.
That even this small (relatively, it's still quite impressive, I'm sure) corpus exists in secret, anyone smart enough to gain access to it has to realize the potential of the system. The information is there for any company's executive who deals overseas. Congressional Staffers? Most likely. Journalists? You betcha, complete with that infamous airhead wink. All of that and most likely more ready to be tapped in service to shape the world.
From behind a veil. It seems every time a Toto comes along, they are smacked hard. Journalists dieing, whistle blowers jailed and politicians mysteriously change positions or fail to ask the crucial follow up in hearings. Is that what is actually happening? Fuck if I know, but God Damn it smells to high heaven.
So now, I'm pondering the notion that we need to burn the curtain this time. I have several problems with that notion because the world is truly a dangerous place. I will concede the idea that these opaque agencies had made it more so. Yet, still it remains that we do need intelligence.
That brings me to the subject, which is the question: Could we satisfy the intelligence needs of a free society with croud sourcing?
What else might work?
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)Long ago, before we began to grow our own food, we were connected, and dependent upon each other.
We must go from being competitive, to cooperative.
There are other solutions, but I've determined over the years that we're not ready to change them.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Humans were connected through the commons, which should connect us still today. That's part of Occupy's message.
cali
(114,904 posts)No talking you down from me. They're horrible ideas and even worse actualities.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)would have loved to have been there to share some apple pie and conversation.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)We don't need these Trillion Dollar monsters. Imagine where our country would be if even one year's worth of their budget went towards social programs for the people.
Imagine the multi trillions that disappeared down their dark hole over the years because some bogeyman might come hide under your bed.
Imagine all the enemies we wouldn't have if we were taking care of our own people instead of meddling in everyone else's business and trying to destabilize other countries.
Imagine, just imagine where we'd be.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Who will protect Wall Street?
Catherina
(35,568 posts)May I suggest factory work in one of those Maquiladoras they love so much?
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Being paid piece work rates for popping a rivet into a hole for 16 hours a day.
Thanks for the laugh!
Monkie
(1,301 posts)love that comment, so many people could benefit from a "piece work rates for popping rivets" re-education program
Incitatus
(5,317 posts)If people who tried to expose them were murdered, how would you even go about stopping them?
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)But I'm betting if we try someone will figure out a way. The thing is I guess that we need our own intelligence to be able to do it.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)have you actually watched what happens when real people, normal people head for the street.
the army and police, they have families too, they are citizens too.
there are 10-20-50-100-1000 of you for every one of "them".
are egyptians braver people than the americans?
randome
(34,845 posts)It's certainly a worthwhile discussion to have regarding agencies that were designed to deal with 'Cold War' mentalities.
No one is going to 'invade' America so the most we need to protect ourselves from is hacking.
However, these agencies also perform other tasks.
Rooting out human slavery rings. Dealing with international pedophilia. Stopping real terrorist activities.
Scaling them back is probably for the best so they can concentrate only on those kind of tasks.
But we should not act in a knee-jerk manner and do this because of what Snowden says. He has made some pretty outrageous claims without evidence to back them up.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Rooting out human trafficking? International Pedophilia? When was the last time that happened? When was that rooted out? I think I missed those bits. My suspicion is that if those activities were uncovered they were sat on as 'leverage.'
I totally agree about the knee jerk part.
randome
(34,845 posts)You may not trust them but I can't find other statistics and I'm donating platelets now.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And ask yourself if this is the basis you want our national intel program run on.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic there.
If we as a nation are not doing anything wrong, what do we have to fear? I should have the same access to that information as the gubmint does. We pay for the collection of this data, why don't we have access to it?
If we have access to actual real information and fact about our programs, then the woo will fail on its own. The vast majority of woo is rooted in secrets.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I want to stress that: if you pick an average American, he or she is more likely to reject the theory of evolution than to accept it. The Internet is helping them spread their bullshit.
If we have access to actual real information and fact about our programs, then the woo will fail on its own.
The Internet is a great platform for spreading truth and an even greater platform for spreading falsehoods.
I should have the same access to that information as the gubmint does.
But we don't want the meth lab or pedophile ring to have the same access to the information that the government does.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)By law the microscope is not to be used on US citizens. If everyone had the information on who the Meth labs and Pedophiles were, wouldn't there be some backlash towards them?
I don't mean to advocate vigilantism, but I don't think the world will be over-run by pedophiles more so than it is now.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Which would include those situations.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...Democracy is dead.
Sorry, Hoot. That's the reality.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)When you pry it from my cold dead fingers.
I say spy back.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Why else would we bother to post on DU all these years?
The biggest battleground in the world is for the space between the ears.
Everybody's.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)would greatly reduce the need, but foreign intelligence is part of the necessary evil. The words protectionism and isolationism, like liberalism, have become 'bad words' to the sheeple, but due to our being one of only a handful of nations that are truly self-sufficient, are great advantages. This advantage has been coopted and exploited by the parasite class so that the little people reap little or no benefit from it.
If we are to avoid the historically inevitable consequences of Empire, we must deconstruct the empire. Our government's primary job is to protect its citizens. That includes protecting them in all forms, not just militarily.
The purpose of our government was laid out very clearly in the executive summary: Establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.
Five things, five jobs in order to secure our consent. By my count, our government has utterly failed in three of them, and of the remaining two, only one is accomplished and that has led to the Empire that precludes the others.
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)How do you really think that would end us up?
jwirr
(39,215 posts)offshoot. They worship, the rich, the corporations and the MIC and anything outside that is of no importance in any of our policies. They remind me of the Koch brothers.
Turbineguy
(37,365 posts)The NSA and the CIA are a teensy bit better than Hitler, Stalin, Hezbollah and others of that ilk.