has got sfa to do with the US doing that to Europe citizens.

of the US doing it universally to the world. There are issues which are controllable in the EU using our data protection acts with regard to which you have no equivalent.

doing more.

All of them do the same shit we're doing. Everyone that has an intelligence network of any kind does or at least tries to.

False outrage.

All of the worlds' Democracies' intelligence networks do pretty much the same stuff

..aka "the Schäfer Report"

before that. It's habitual for them as it is for all spying agencies.

For that matter, how habitual are scathing congressional reports when regarding NSA.

I'm just pointing out differences where the OP claims commonalities.

BND doesnt seem to be able to stop doing it.

The House and the Senate have frequent complaints regarding the CIA and NSA. The agencies and various intelligence groups have to submit to regular hearings by members of House and Senate Committees. If the House and Senate object enough, they can impeach the President over their conduct.

breaking.

Clearly the german parliament is more critical of and doles out more severe sanctions to the BND than congress does to the NSA. No where have I disputed that either institutionally lacks oversight.

You attribute this difference to the supposed fact that the BND does illegal stuff while the NSA does not while I suggested that it has other reasons. I have yet to see congress forcing the NSA to apologize as the german parliament forced the BND. It is neither romantic nor naive to suggest that different political cultures differ in their general attitude toward intelligence services, and Germany is certainly one of the more critical. The fact that blatant overreaches by these services occur even there might be suggestive of inherent problems with secret police services rather than of universal approval of such.

There's no way such spying would bring back bad memories of the old days.

It's a truism that there are many Good Germans in Germany.

people protest (WAY more visible/loudly than in the USA), Govt officlals write laws to curtail spying> news item about some local or national body spying somehow> people protest> etc

The main difference in Germany is that people protest way more than here and those protests are much more forceful. And politicians don't ignore them.

But inevitably, some other incident occurs some time later.

following that pattern.

thanks for your OP, steven

Is telling of the mindset of today's totalitarians, a lack of awareness of recent history, and alarming, to say the least.

Merkel's and others very muted response to the revelations.

I've offered more than interpretations of silence.

point.

Well, technically it may be - but congress surely never went to those levels of criticism and oversight.

they can be summoned at any time.

I said the oversight is more thorough and critical.

the oversight over there does no good since BND keeps doing it.

And the German people are very concerned about these creepy and scary revelations.

concern them.

You sure that's the argument you want to make?

of changing governments than we. It's a Parliament. There could be a no-confidence vote, right? A vote of no confidence could be held, elections would be called for, the Greens and whatever other further left groups could be voted in if the people sufficiently object, right?

When my elected representatives do or say anything, publicly or privately,, to further the cause of NSA spying, they are most emphatically not representing me.

But if that wasn't your intent, then perhaps you should update your OP since that is how it comes off as, that the responses to your OP show.

And I 'omitted' the German citizens because #1 - I havent seen any polling that purports to show the overall belief of German citizens on the subject and #2 - The original conversation was related to the "international shitstorm" which I interpreted to be diplomatic.

That Germany, which refers to the whole country, not just their elite, isn't represent in your OP, and therefore misleading.

Now maybe your intentions were not that, but again, that's how it comes of when you only take into account what establishment think, which from what I've been reading does t seem accurate either.

because that's one of many that belong on the Daily Paul.

you know, the one you were telling me about earlier? hmmmnnn?

their own spies and their own foreign policy.

hokay then.

the world is now mad at Obama and he is tumbling from grace.

Not that it will stop the belief in such.

It's a complex, messy world outside the bubble!

Must we think so and participate as well? Saudi Arabia chops the hands off thieves. Should we adopt that too? Many nations allow smoking in restaurants, especially Asian nations. Why do we ban it again? If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?

Because everybody else does it is the weakest of all excuses. It is one our parents rightly mocked with disdain dripping from every word. We have a simple choice, do the right thing, or try and justify doing the wrong thing. Phony claims of scores of intercepted terrorist attacks didn't work. Have we gotten so low in the pursuit of an excuse we are really unleashing the excuse every 12 year old child learns is useless?

I would catagorize this effort as pathetic, but that would be giving it too much credit.

...our own perfidy by pointing fingers at some other guy. The ''everybody does it'' defense is total BULLSHIT. Okay?

- This is the shit right-wingers do.

Look up PLA Unit 61398 .... if you really want to see the game played a professional level.

Compared to those guys, we're pikers.

(Reuters) - President Barack Obama sought to allay concerns from German Chancellor Angela Merkel about reported U.S. spying on European allies on Wednesday, and they agreed to hold a high-level meeting on the subject in coming days.

The European Union has demanded the United States explain a report in a German magazine that Washington was spying on its European allies, calling such surveillance shocking if true.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-obama-merkel-idUSBRE9621GP20130703

Your OP is embarrassing in so many ways.

"... even though we both know that all countries spy like this. So I am going to be able to report that I am concerned, and then we forget the whole thing."

The funny thing is, you actually think this supports your point of view, don't you?

The US is spending *thousands* of times that amount on the Internet portion of Obama's "Spy on Everyone" program.

$26 million a year buys a few dozen people and equipment. 60 people tops. Can we seriously compare that to the massive, massive "Spy on Everyone"?

It's like comparing overdue library books to burning down the library. They both involve depriving us of books, but...

How does the OP claim equal gusto and give us 136 million over five years as proof?

That is fucking shilltastic nonsense there.

We 'bad', them 'good'.

With all the trade going on right now, Snowden put us a severe disadvantage. Apparently, the privacy of our online porn activity
outweighs national commerce. Who really cares if our economy is over 70% consumer driven?