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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:10 AM Jul 2013

More on Venezuela's offer (Is everyone sure this isn't rhetoric?)

Snowden Is Offered Asylum by Venezuela

Maduro Says Country Would Provide 'Humanitarian Asylum' to NSA Leaker

By KEJAL VYASin Caracas and JOSÉ DE CÓRDOBAin Mexico City

<...>

It wasn't clear how Mr. Snowden could make it to either country, however. There are no direct commercial flights from Moscow to Caracas. And a recent analysis of his possible routes to Ecuador, a country that last week extended an asylum offer to him providing he could get to Ecuadorean territory, showed that all of his connecting flight routes to that country ran through countries that have extradition treaties with the U.S. Nonetheless, Mr. Snowden could board a plane from Moscow to Havana, and then go on to Caracas. Although Cuba has an extradition treaty with the U.S., it has largely been a dead letter.

<...>

A senior U.S. official said Mr. Maduro's invitation appeared at this point to be symbolic, because Mr. Snowden's fate, he said, still largely depends on the Russian government and whether Russia would be willing to transport him to Venezuela. "It's not clear as a practical matter that will have any effect, because Snowden would still have to get to Venezuelan territory," he said.

A White House official declined to comment, other than to say: "You'd have to ask the Venezuelans what it means, as it is their offer." U.S. officials have for weeks been appealing to counterparts around the world not to offer a place for Mr. Snowden to relocate and to return him to the U.S.

Mr. Maduro's offer of asylum was probably a reaction to events earlier this week when four European countries closed their airspace to the presidential jet of Bolivia's President Evo Morales because they suspected Mr. Snowden was a passenger on the jet. Mr. Morales was forced to stop in Vienna before finally being able to clear a route back home hours later. The incident infuriated many Latin American leaders.

- more -

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323899704578588351612234478.html

Taking rhetoric in a speech as a practical offer seems a stretch.

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
More on Venezuela's offer (Is everyone sure this isn't rhetoric?) (Original Post) ProSense Jul 2013 OP
Kick! n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #1
it sounds like what many others have already said JI7 Jul 2013 #2
Yup, he ProSense Jul 2013 #4
when he packs for russia SwampG8r Jul 2013 #3
No. Rhetoric is promising the most transparant administration, ever! HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #5
Actually, ProSense Jul 2013 #8
But he does not seem to have an issue with it. He defends it as well as... Logical Jul 2013 #9
President Obama ProSense Jul 2013 #10
Has he scaled back any of the paranoia surrounding the patriot act? Or... Logical Jul 2013 #12
Yes, ProSense Jul 2013 #13
Do we know for sure that Snowden wasn't on Morales' plane? ucrdem Jul 2013 #6
Whichever country steps up is taking on a financial burden flamingdem Jul 2013 #7
Well, ProSense Jul 2013 #11

JI7

(89,262 posts)
2. it sounds like what many others have already said
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:28 AM
Jul 2013

by saying they would consider it once he is there.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
4. Yup, he
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:34 AM
Jul 2013

"it sounds like what many others have already said by saying they would consider it once he is there. "

...basically repeated his postion. The following was last updated Thursday.

Venezuela

Possible. On a visit to Moscow, the president, Nicolás Maduro, said he would consider an asylum request and said the whistleblower "deserves the world's protection". But he later told reporters that his country has not received an application for asylum from Snowden and dodged the question of whether he would take Snowden with him when he left.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/02/edward-snowden-nsa-asylum-application-list-countries

Obviously, he didn't take Snowden with him, but he's being more clear that he would do offer asylum versus consider it.

The dynamics of the situation hasn't changes.



SwampG8r

(10,287 posts)
3. when he packs for russia
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:34 AM
Jul 2013

I will believe it
underestimate the......im not sure what it is anger or resolve or spite ....of the man at our own peril

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
5. No. Rhetoric is promising the most transparant administration, ever!
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 03:56 AM
Jul 2013

And then establishing a secret surveillence state.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
8. Actually,
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:17 AM
Jul 2013

"No. Rhetoric is promising the most transparant administration, ever! And then establishing a secret surveillence state."

...that's neither rhetoric or accurate. The Obama administration isn't responsible for "establishing a secret surveillence state."

That was done decades ago.

Transparency, Declassification, and the Obama Presidency

By Lee White

<...>

Steven Aftergood (Director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists and the publisher of the blog Secrecy News)

In retrospect, the Administration erred in making its early public statements promising unprecedented transparency. The President raised expectations so high that the ensuing disappointment was inevitable. The smarter move would have been to demonstrate openness in actions, not in words, and to exceed public expectations.

<...>

Thomas Blanton (Director of the National Security Archive at George Washington University in Washington, D.C.)

There are obviously some differences of opinion on this subject. My own is that too often we conflate "the Obama administration" with actions of specific agencies or specific bureaucrats, when in fact the policy decision at the top has been pretty good, just stymied by ongoing bureaucratic obfuscation in the middle and the bottom. Or even worse, continuity by federal career employees of Bush policies that the White House has not succeeded in changing.

<...>

Anne Weismann (Chief Counsel for Citizen's for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington-CREW)

In my assessment, the administration's record on transparency is mixed. Without question, President Obama put strong, pro-transparency policies in place that really set the benchmark for a more open government. The problem has been in implementing those policies at the agency level. Agencies have been encouraged to make proactive disclosures, but they have shown little regard for the quality of and public interest in the information they are posting. And the administration has not provided them much guidance on this front.

<...>

Patrice McDermott (Executive Director of OpenTheGovernment.Org)

I think it is a very mixed bag. There are strong indications that the initiatives and efforts of the Obama Administration have begun to institutionalize changes in the attitudes of components of the Executive Branch, mostly in the area of domestic right-to-know. While the effectiveness of FOIA as a disclosure and accountability tool for the public continues to lag behind the promises the President and the Attorney General made, much more attention is being directed by agencies to improving the process, and agencies are putting more information out proactively (without requiring or waiting for a FOIA request)—and not just the usual stuff they want you to know. The greatest frustration on the domestic policy front has been the ongoing changes in policy personnel in the White House, creating problems of follow-through and consistency.

<...>

- more -

http://www.historians.org/Perspectives/issues/2012/1209/Transparency-Declassification-and-Obama-Presidency.cfm



 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
9. But he does not seem to have an issue with it. He defends it as well as...
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:23 AM
Jul 2013

Bush/cheaney did. That is my issue.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
10. President Obama
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:28 AM
Jul 2013

"But he does not seem to have an issue with it. He defends it as well as...Bush/cheaney did. That is my issue."

...is not Bush or Cheney

Bush and Cheney were liars, and there is an effort to create the impression Obama is no different
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023043154

Remember whistleblower Thomas Tamm?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023032225

 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
12. Has he scaled back any of the paranoia surrounding the patriot act? Or...
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:06 AM
Jul 2013

Asked congress to scale it back?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
13. Yes,
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:26 PM
Jul 2013

"Has he scaled back any of the paranoia surrounding the patriot act? Or...Asked congress to scale it back?"

...there were safeguards put in place.

DOJ To Implement Provisions Of Leahy-Authored Patriot Act Reauthorization Proposal (2010)
http://www.leahy.senate.gov/press/doj-to-implement-provisions-of-leahy-authored-patriot-act-reauthorization-proposal

Documents Detail N.S.A. Surveillance Rules

By SCOTT SHANE

<...>

On Thursday, in the latest release of documents supplied by Edward J. Snowden, the former N.S.A. contractor now believed to be hiding in Hong Kong, The Guardian published two documents setting out the detailed rules governing the agency’s intercepts...They show, for example, that N.S.A. officers who intercept an American online or on the phone — say, while monitoring the phone or e-mail of a foreign diplomat or a suspected terrorist — can preserve the recording or transcript if they believe the contents include “foreign intelligence information” or evidence of a possible crime. They can likewise preserve the intercept if it contains information on a “threat of serious harm to life or property” or sheds light on technical issues like encryption or vulnerability to cyberattacks.

And while N.S.A. analysts usually have to delete Americans’ names from the reports they write, there are numerous exceptions, including cases where there is evidence that the American in the intercept is working for a terrorist group, foreign country or foreign corporation.

The documents, classified “Secret,” describe the procedures for eavesdropping under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act, including an N.S.A. program called Prism that mines Internet communications using services including Gmail and Facebook. They are likely to add fuel for both sides of the debate over the proper limits of the government’s surveillance programs.

They offer a glimpse of a rule-bound intelligence bureaucracy that is highly sensitive to the distinction between foreigners and “U.S. persons,” which technically include not only American citizens and legal residents but American companies and nonprofit organizations as well. The two sets of rules, each nine pages long, belie the image of a rogue intelligence agency recklessly violating Americans’ privacy.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/21/us/politics/documents-detail-nsa-surveillance-rules.html

<...>

Today, in the latest release of classified NSA documents from Glenn Greenwald, we finally got a look at these minimization procedures. Here's the nickel summary:

The top secret documents published today detail the circumstances in which data collected on US persons under the foreign intelligence authority must be destroyed, extensive steps analysts must take to try to check targets are outside the US, and reveals how US call records are used to help remove US citizens and residents from data collection.

I have a feeling it must have killed Glenn to write that paragraph. But on paper, anyway, the minimization procedures really are pretty strict. If NSA discovers that it's mistakenly collected domestic content, it's required to cease the surveillance immediately and destroy the information it's already collected. However, there are exceptions. They can:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023060180

WaPo: New documents reveal parameters of NSA’s secret surveillance programs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023058091




ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
6. Do we know for sure that Snowden wasn't on Morales' plane?
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:45 AM
Jul 2013

My understanding is that the plane wasn't searched, and in the unlikely event that Snowden was, in fact, on board, that would solve the transportation problem.

p.s. and no one would be the wiser until the Russians announce that Snowden has left the building to parts unknown -- an announcement they may just decide not to make, ever. In which case it might be possible that Snowden will simply disappear from the news until being spotted by some sharp-eyed tourist or intel asset in Caracas.

flamingdem

(39,319 posts)
7. Whichever country steps up is taking on a financial burden
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:03 AM
Jul 2013

This is what they'll have to consider when the clouds of poutrage float away

All these leaders have contenders from the right who'll use Snowden to win the next round

Maduro will be hounded by Capriles, and ironically it will be clear that Snowden is more of a right wing libertarian neo-con (thinking of his dads pick of a lawyer in the US, described as such) than a socialist, so he'll fit in more with Capriles.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
11. Well,
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:02 AM
Jul 2013

ignoring the reality of each situation (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023163029) doesn't change it.

<...>

The offers from Venezuela and Nicaragua appeared to be linked to outrage in Latin America over the treatment last week of President Evo Morales of Bolivia, whose plane was denied permission to fly over several European countries because of what Bolivian officials said were unfounded suspicions that Mr. Snowden was aboard. Mr. Morales was on his way home from a meeting in Moscow.

Mr. Maduro had previously voiced sympathy for Mr. Snowden. He frequently bashes the United States, depicting it as an imperialist bully in Latin America. But at the same time he has shown a desire to improve relations with the United States, directing his foreign minister to start talks with Washington aimed at smoothing the rocky relationship with the top buyer of his country’s all-important oil exports.

<...>

Russia was apparently among the original countries to which Mr. Snowden submitted an asylum request, but a spokesman for President Vladimir V. Putin, Dmitri S. Peskov, has said since that the request was withdrawn.

On Thursday, Mr. Putin sent a telegram to President Obama noting the Fourth of July holiday and restating his commitment to holding a summit meeting in Moscow in September, ahead of the G20 conference, which will be in St. Petersburg. American officials have signaled that Mr. Obama is unlikely to visit Moscow if Mr. Snowden is still holed up at Sheremetyevo airport.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/06/world/snowden.html


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