General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsZIMMERMAN TRIAL - MORNING, Day 12, Wednesday, July 10, 2013
Let's combine all the Z rial comments into one huge thread instead of bunches of thread in GD
I am not sure if the link that I have been posting is still good. Here it is: http://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/live-zimmerman-trial-jury-selection-day-6/ This site seems to be down. Use another link.
If someone else has a better one, please post it.
I have stuff I have to do today so another DUer will post the afternoon thread.
I expect today to be nasty. At last night's trial session they were talking about the stuff on TM's phone and how late the defense got it. It sounds like they plan to bring TM's character into this today. Not surprising.
The defense has said they plan to wrap it up today.
Here is another link: http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/watch-george-zimmerman-trial-live
Judge still has to rule on several items of admissablity.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)in February. The defense was whining that the data wasn't sorted and identified for them by the State so they didn't find it until later during an earlier hearing on this where the defense wanted sanctions against the State for a discovery violation.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)turned the information over to the defense in the BIN file. It is NOT the state's job to do the defense's job. The defense is crazy if they think that can cite the state for a discovery violation.
Talk about a couple of whinny crybabies.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Not that it really matters, but I was wondering if they were referring to something like a plastic container or if BIN was an acronym for something or what.
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)(had to piggy back on your post to get it visible. )
avebury
(10,952 posts)copied what they found on the phone and gave it to the defense. Both sides would have had had to have their experts crack any type of password necessary to actually tell what was on the phone.
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)what the prosecution had to do....convert it.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Oh dear, I thought they were talking about a bin like a plastic container with a bunch of papers in it or something.
Ok, now I get it.
Jim__
(14,083 posts)If you open a binary file, it won't appear as text, images, etc - you have to use a program to read/translate it into text, images, etc.
Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)They accuse the state of violations, when they indeed had the information.
They don't show up for depositions and then argue that the court will deny the civil rights of Zimmerman because he did not have the opportunity to cross the witness.
They are told to be prepared for a hearing in the morning and they come to court unprepared complaining that the trial is too long, they did not have time to prepare.
And then, last night they complained that court was starting too early.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)conferences and media appearances yet whine they don't have enough time to get their work done. It is pathetic.
Lisa D
(1,532 posts)They're hoping that the longer the jury is sequestered, the more chance that they'll immediately acquit because they're just tired of it all.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)I worked for non-profits and one of the first things I learned was never say you can't do something. You find a way and you do it because it's your job to do so. The fact that they were complaining about the long hours and not having time for preparation just struck me as really unprofessional. They chose this profession and this case, if they can't handle the long hours and the work that goes into it, that's their problem, not the court or the State's.
Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)I have never heard of an attorney complaining about the work load to the court. Shameful.
And, of course can you imagine what they are getting paid for their long hours!?
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)was the same one who had time to take a photo of himself eating vanilla ice cream cones in a limo with his adult daughters in celebration of supposedly besting in court Rachel Jeantel, who they implied was stupid.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Myrina
(12,296 posts)The Prosecutor's office seems like it's trying its level best to lose, and the Defense seems like it just wants to GTF out of there.
Not at all sure how that stuff works but it sure looks like they're trying to punt on this entire spectacle.
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)say that is Martin's voice on the tape?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)trial. All they can do WRT to the testimony of the defense witnesses is impeach that testimony or attack the credibility of the witness.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)at that time they can call witnesses to rebut testimony put forward by the defense.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Spazito
(50,453 posts)email and photos evidence. The defense has been given the right to use the animation in their closing arguments if they choose but it is not an exhibit the jury will have during deliberations. Kudos to the Judge.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)because the posecution can't question the animators who made it or anything about where the info came from for the positioning of the cartoon Zimmerman and Trayvon figures.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)so I take that to mean they can't use the entire thing, just parts of it that match verbal testimony and evidence.
where Zimmerman told the police "X" they can show "X."
What bothers me is that means they can use animation of Martin punching Zimmerman, just because Zimmerman claimed it.
It won't be given to the jury to review after the Defenses summary, either. But they will get that one view of it.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)gives their closing argument, will address this I have no doubt. During the hearing on the admissibility of the animation as an exhibit, the State said they would not argue against the defense using it in their closing argument which tells me they will be prepared to rebut it.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The cartoon can be used as a demonstation but not as evidence.
warrior1
(12,325 posts)YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)From what I've been reading, Florida case law supports electronic messages being used as evidence.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)The judge in the hearing read out the law about authentication, and they can't be admitted if they aren't. Defense whined that they didn't have the time to authenticate them though they've had them since February.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Listing credentials.
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)someone who was trained (Root) with someone who wasn't (Zimmerman)
He also noted that "communication and deescalation" was key proponent of defense.
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)when officers are told not to pursue when told to hold back.
Response to chelsea0011 (Reply #28)
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Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)I would like to see that question.
Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #29)
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avebury
(10,952 posts)gets into should a non-LEO be tracking and confronting an unknown person in the dark. The PA has a lot of ways to go after this testimony.
Punkingal
(9,522 posts)I hope PA asks if Z shouldn't have just stayed in his truck. And if police officers have to be trained and retrained on this stuff......what about someone like Z walking around with a firearm. Gives me chills.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)Root is an expert on everything.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Ninga
(8,277 posts)why are they wasting my time......
Spazito
(50,453 posts)I wonder if she will given she has been charged with perjury in relation to this case. She was listed on the defense's witness list and was deposed by the State against the protestations by the defense. If she doesn't testify, will it be a glaring question in the juror's minds as to why she didn't testify in support of her husband?
Ninga
(8,277 posts)Spazito
(50,453 posts)the jurors are all women, most of whom are married I believe so the absence of her testimony will be noticed by them, leaving a question mark as to why in their minds.
Maybe the defense is planning to have her testify as their last witness, I guess we will see soon enough.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)why they didn't call his wife to authenticate his voice. I found that really odd. Since they didn't put her up on the stand for that I'm guessing they don't want her anywhere near the stand for anything because of the perjury.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)I know they wanted the Judge to prohibit the State from deposing her and said, at that time, they weren't necessarily going to call her which caught my attention. They lost that whine and Shellie Zimmerman was deposed. If they rest without calling her, I can't see that absence not leaving a glaring question in the minds of the jurors as to why she didn't support her husband.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)the jury will hear testimony in favor of Zimmerman
from a woman who has no problem lying under oath?
Spazito
(50,453 posts)his wife, they know there is a real risk in calling upon her to testify but they also know full well a jury is likely to wonder why she didn't take the stand in support of her husband. Given the jurors will see her testimony as biased and one of self-interest, I think they may have calculated the lesser risk is to not have her testify but the defense hasn't rested yet so it could still happen.
Response to Spazito (Reply #35)
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Ninga
(8,277 posts)from her?
Did she deal with it yet?
Spazito
(50,453 posts)from what Judge Nelson said last night. She also said they would deal with it at 8:00 am but later changed the time for the start of court to 9:00 and only gave her rulings on the admissibility of the animation and the texts/photos on Trayvon's phone, nothing yet on the sequestration violations. Maybe this afternoon?
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)I missed the whole morning and am trying to
catch up. I know the judge denied the phone
and the video but hadn't heard about these
witnesses.. ?
Ninga
(8,277 posts)as he just stated that he reached out to the defense, not the defense seeking him out.....
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Zimmerman wasn't trained as a cop, he isn't a cop and neither was Martin. What on earth is he there for?
tom_kelly
(962 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)He sounds like he's doing an infomercial or a interview for a job.
I just can't figure out what on earth he has to do with this case.
Oh, now I get it. He's trying to explain away Zimmerman's multiple stories. Good grief.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Wouldn't that indicate that he's biased towards Z's side of the story to begin with?
Ninga
(8,277 posts)made it very clear, and sounded rather proud..it would definitely make me sit up and think he was biased.....wonder if he is getting paid as a "volunteer" witness?
avebury
(10,952 posts)his private business. Maybe he is trying to develop a reputation as a defense witness. Free work today might result in a lot of paid work down the road. That is what I would be thinking. He is not doing this out of the goodness of his heart but out of self interest.
Ninga
(8,277 posts)MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)I'm sure that any other person who may by charged in committing another Z. like shoot of another black kid would probably seek this ex-cop out as well.
avebury
(10,952 posts)who is not an LEO, does not have LEO training and who is totally incapable of defending himself physically is acting without prudence when he tracked and confronted an unknown person, in the dark, in the rain. How could Root imagine that this situation would turn out good? Is this witness supporting vigilante activity?
Ninga
(8,277 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)That doesn't square with all the threads and posts saying that Zimmy is a MMA expert, that he trained 3 times a week and is some sort of Brazilian jiu-jitsu master that outweighed Trayvon by 50 to 100 lbs.
Which is it?
Total wimp or Chuck Norris?
avebury
(10,952 posts)trainer -------- who had to appear in court the next day on an assault charge.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)Apparently numerous hours in the gym may have helped him to lose weight but that was all he accomplished. He wasn't even allowed into the ring to box an opponent.
Edit to add - The trainer was clear in saying that Zimmerman was a very nice guy and he tried but he didn't succeed far in ability.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Ninga
(8,277 posts)witness, cry-baby Donnelly, violated the sequester by sitting in the court room before he took the stand....
Spazito
(50,453 posts)while he was still under the sequestration order. The violation came to light yesterday during the hearing due to a question from the Judge to Schumaker. What was also made clear is that O'Mara was aware it had happened because he tried to argue with the Judge as to why it happened. Not a smart move on his part, imo.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Spazito
(50,453 posts)and there will be penalties of some sort, exactly what I don't know. The State may request a remedy for the situation, they would have the right. If the defense lawyers were involved, in any way, in these violations this could bring them before the bar.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)(I hadn't read far enough down in the thread)
Spazito
(50,453 posts)and it will be held in public, if so it should be very interesting on how it is resolved.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)and can act as a LEO would which, I suspect, most LEOs would vehemently disagree with. This testimony puzzles me as it calls attention to the point that Zimmerman was a zealous cop wannabe which, one would think, is NOT a point the defense wants emphasized.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)I think you believe Z is a zealous cop wannabe.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)I've read your previous posts. It is interesting, most LEOs I know detest cop wannabes because they make the job of LEOs harder when it comes to the public perception of what LEOs are like but, I guess, there are exceptions to the norm.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)their own. So when cops are trustworthy and follow the law, then I will care whether they hate cop wannabes.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)poor attempt at a red herring. To refresh your memory, it was your post citing what LEOs thought, now you disparage LEOs, interesting.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)I meant that Z was defending him self, like LEO's would defend themselves.
do LEO's not have the right to defend themselves?
Spazito
(50,453 posts)they also have commensurate responsibilities as to how they defend themselves. Zimmerman is not a LEO, just a cop wannabe, he doesn't have the same authority as a LEO in any way, shape or form.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Spazito
(50,453 posts)along with that right comes the responsibility to show lethal force was used as a last resort. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying Zimmerman is no different than a LEO in any way, has the same legal authority to act as a LEO even though he is not one?
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)CitizenLeft
(2,791 posts)Just askin'.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)displacedtexan
(15,696 posts)Every TV procedural demonstrates this, and I've been observing LEOs to see if it's true. It appears to be so, except when they're driving down highways. At least, that's my observation. If you know the exact LEO rule regarding seat belt use, I'd love to learn it.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)who drink and drive get off?
avebury
(10,952 posts)exactly what has been pointed out in this trial. The application to be a cop, wanting to do ride-alongs, wanting to get into shape and clear up his credit, taking all those criminal justice classes, etc. He also headed up the Neighborhood Watch in a small development where he did not know the names of the streets and most of the home owners did not eve know who he was.
Anybody that is totally inept and incapbable of physically defending himself is dumber then a sack of rocks to follow any person in the dark in the rain as it will not turn out well. The only way Zimmerman would prevail in an altercation is with a gun. If you have not gone through LEO training, can't even throw a decent punch you have no business do what Zimmerman did that night. I totally believe that he already had the gun out when he approaced Martin and Martin was force to try to fight for his life. If Zimmerman broke his nose it could have been the result of Martin elbowing him in an effort to get away from him.
Remeber, Martin never did anything that night to warrant being followed and confonted. Zimmerman was the aggressor from the start. I would really like to know who he called right after the incident. It is known that he made a call and cell phone records would reveal that information. It leads you to believe that Zimmerman might have called either one of his ex LEO buddies or his Dad and make you wonder if they helped him to concoct a story to try to claim self defense. Zimmerman's story is so unbelievable.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)a time gap?). It has never been release publicly who that call was made to. When you look at this guy's cadre of "friends" it does become believable that they would come to his aide and try to protect him. A cover up is not out of the realm of believability.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)if its so important, why has it not been brought up?
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)That would, of course, include Martin's right to protect himself against an armed pursuer.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)According to two witnesses, there was a chase sequence. Jeanter heard the chase on the phone, which is corroborated by a neighbor who heard and/or saw a chase.
They could have rolled around, wrestling on the grass, which would explain why some neighbor's saw one on top and some saw the other on top.
Zimmerman could have slipped on the grass, fallen over backwards and banged his head against the sidewalk without any help from Martin.
He could have run into a wall in the dark and broken his own nose. Kickback from his gun held in an awkward position could have broken his nose -- this would explain the punctures on his nose, as well as his blood on his gun.
Or perhaps after Zimmerman pulled out his gun, Martin grabbed Zimmerman's hands and was wrestling with him, trying to point the gun away from himself. In such a wrestling match, the gun could have punched Zimmerman in the nose. That would explain the "downward motions" of Martin's hands as he desperately tried to keep from being shot. That would explain why Martin's dna was not found on the gun -- his hands would be on Zimmerman's hands or wrists or forearms, not the gun itself. That would also explain how Zimmerman thought his shot "went wide." And it certainly is what I would do in desperation, were somebody to pull out a gun at point blank range and aim it at me.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Z did not fire his gun right in front of his face. give me a break.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)as I wrote above, if Z pulled his gun and aimed it right at Martin, Martin's last chance at life may well have been to try to get the gun aimed in a different direction by grabbing Zimmerman's hands or wrists or forearms. In such a scenario, with Z trying to aim the gun in one direction, and the Martin trying to wrestle that gun in some other direction, it could well have ended up right in front of Zimmerman's face when he fired it.
Give yourself a break. I don't owe you one and have no intention of giving any unearned breaks.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)front of your nose and fire it? you would not have the best grip of the gun at that point. but maybe Z did because he was an MMA trainer.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)you for it?
I'm willing to bet no. Otherwise you wouldn't be here defending Zimmerman.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)2. no I have not, but I know damn well you wouldn't have the gun in front of your nose when you fire it.
How exactly would Z have fired the gun in front of his nose to get the wounds with TM's hands on his? You just said that that might have happened, did you not?
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)themselves these days right and left. People aim guns right into their own faces and shoot themselves all the time; my understanding is you put it in your mouth and aim upward toward the soft palate. If a toddler can point a gun at his or her own head and pull the trigger, then I expect Zimmerman can hold a gun in front of his face pointing away from himself and pull the trigger.
As to how I feel about self-defense with a gun, I expect a gun to be a last resort, and as last resort, I mean you don't go chasing after somebody walking down the street that you decide looks "suspicious" because you're tired of those "fucking goons" always getting away, get into a confrontation and when you find yourself on the losing end of things, pull out your gun and shoot them.
Zimmerman deliberately put himself into situation. He forced Martin into a fight for his life. He ignored his instructions as a neighborhood watch. He ignored the suggestion of the 911 operator. He ignored two opportunities to identify himself to Martin. He precipitated the confrontation. Zimmerman was looking for trouble; Martin was looking to get home and finish watching the game with his little brother. Imho, Zimmerman doesn't now get to claim self defense.
As it happens, my plan is when I sell my current home, I will get training and a gun because I live in a very rural area and plan to be even more rural. It takes a good 30 minutes for our part-time police to show up and last year a neighbor held a would-be burglar caught trying to climb in a window at gunpoint for that 30 minutes. I have had enough scary incidents in the past here to know I will be on my own and considered an easy target. But I don't expect to go hunting any "fucking goons" now or ever.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)but it would be stupid to do so, and not very likely with TM's hands around.
Gun is the last resort. when someone is on top of you hitting you, if you feel this is last resort then you use it. And YOU cant determine if that person felt it was last resort or not.
TM was looking to get home but decided to beat up Z for following him, which made Z use self-defense.
well good for you.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)at any moment in time. And Z could have pulled the trigger by reflexive action. But I think you already know that.
Have you ever been followed by a stranger in a car? Because I have, and I can tell you when it became clear he was following me, I made a point of *not* leading him to my home. In fact, when I was no longer able to elude him, I made a point of confronting him.
My situation ended differently only because it turned out the idiot who scared me half to death thought I was somebody else, and when I confronted him, he gunned out of there so fast he probably left half his tires behind.
Zimmerman chased Martin to ground and when he caught up with him, Martin was forced to fight for his life. Martin had a right to self-defense. Zimmerman provoked the entire situation. Zimmerman had multiple opportunities to de-escalate the situation that he initiated, and he instead chose to escalate the situation.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)defense required to justify killing.
and I must go walk my dogs before they melt down.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)who are you to tell someone if they feel threatened or not?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)shouldn't?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)And besides, legal eagle, it's not whether bigot boy was afraid, it's a "reasonable person." Bigot boy and his gun, weren't reasonably afraid.
Duckwraps
(206 posts)Spazito
(50,453 posts)those are commensurate with their responsibilities as well. Using the word "rights" was a poor choice on my part I readily admit, I should have used 'legal authority' instead.
Duckwraps
(206 posts)Spazito
(50,453 posts)if you read further down you will see I corrected my reference from "rights" to 'legal authority.
premium
(3,731 posts)we have procedures, rules and regulations, codes of conduct, which are not rights.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)as stated in my post to another poster, my choice of "rights" was poor, I should have used 'legal authority'.
premium
(3,731 posts)thank you.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts).... and powers. That is sad on what is supposed to be a political discussion board.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)...including Z's different accounts and create an accurate composite picture of what happened and how Z was perceiving events.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Pretty much called him the Michelin man there.
Lisa D
(1,532 posts)So he can divine the operation of Zimmerman's mind just by listening to all the different stories and deciding which one works best for the defense case
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)This guy wasn't there and has no idea how the altercation happened.
Next...
premium
(3,731 posts)yet, plenty of people here seem to think they know exactly what happened that night, how is that any different from this witness?
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)His theory is just as valid as anyone else's, and, as you said, he wasn't there that night, and neither was anyone here there that night, so all the scenario's put forth here are bullshit also.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)I think you're being intentionally thick in your zeal to defend Zimmerman.
People on a message board discussing a case is vastly different than an expert witness testifying in court.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)like they know any better? But oh my, they disagree with the expert so he must be wrong. those are comments I have read.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Besides its the type of questions he's being asked like someone else's mindset when they fire a gun. How can anyone answer that? The line of questioning is crap which is why the judge blocked so much before they even started with this witness.
If you don't like people discussing the trial, questioning the validity of questions and the like then you're in the wrong place.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)prosecution and defense.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)including certain aspects of this case, what I don't agree on is your accusation that I'm a Zimmerman defender.
premium
(3,731 posts)Show me one post where I defended Zimmerman's actions.
And, as I said, if you call his theory b.s. because he wasn't there that night, then it stands to reason that everyone here who thinks that they know exactly what happened that night, even though they weren't there, is b.s. also right?
Leave out the fact that we're not testifying.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Not touting ourselves as experts or testifying under oath. No, none of us knows exactly what happened and neither do you. Aren't you former LEO? Let's not pretend you don't understand the difference.
Why is it so important to you to put down everyone who discusses this case and believes Zimmerman is guilty? If you're not defending Z why are most if not all your posts promoting the defense's case? If someone is impartial logic tells us that at some point their posts would fall on the prosecution's side.
I don't understand why you hang out on these threads if all us "amateurs" bother you so much.
premium
(3,731 posts)and I'm not putting anyone down, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of many here who think that they know exactly what went on that night, even though none of us were there, and yet, when a witness puts forth a theory, they say it's b.s., how is that any different from those here?
If you think I'm putting people down, well, that's your perception.
In no way have I ever promoted the defense's case, as someone who's testified in numerous criminal trials, for the state and defense, I point out where the state's case is weak as hell, that is not promoting the defense case.
I'll hang out and continue correcting people here when they are wrong on the law, if you don't like it, don't read it.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)I don't mean that in a snarky way. You're correcting people on the law and I suppose that's fine but you insinuate that nobody else's opinion on what happened is valid. Jurors aren't LEO, they're people just like the rest of us civilians so I think perhaps our perspectives are closer to what the jury will feel than yours. Valid?
Of course it gets more complicated when you get into what the jury is allowed to know vs. what the public knows etc.
I don't know what went on that night but I don't believe what Zimmerman said so where does that leave me? I can only speculate and since I think Z is lying, it causes me to speculate that Zimmerman lied because he did something wrong.
Sorry I keep asking about LEO but I get Z defenders confused. Just kidding! If you say you're not I'll have to go on your word. Maybe you can "correct" some of Z's supporters because they are clearly not legal experts either.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)but I doubt if anybody really believes they really
know. As other posters have said, we are speculating,
and in many ways we are the jury, but we get
no legal vote.
I have thoroughly digested as much of Zimmerman's
story as has been presented in court and to the
public, I think -- at least his version(s) of that night.
The more I have learned, the less it makes sense,
the less he seems trustworthy, the more Trayvon
Martin comes out as a truly innocent kid who was
fighting for his life. The case as laid out by the
prosecution is quite simple and it is solid, my
non-expert opinion.
It is frustrating when defense witnesses and defense
attorneys obfuscate the facts and raise questions
re the innocence of Trayvon. I know it's their job,
but don't have to like them on that account, or
their tactics. I find both of them unpleasant to
watch and listen to.
You can keep posting your point of view, and I personally
think it's valuable, but you can do it without disparaging
the enthusiasm and perspectives of other posters.
That part adds nothing to the discussion except
misunderstanding and bad feeling. It doesn't make
anyone more humble.
katmondoo
(6,457 posts)plus being biased
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)WCLinolVir
(951 posts)Talk about pedantic.Having the last word is not lost on you. Even if it's dry as toast and just as unpalatable.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)anywhere from 6 months to a year of training.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)use any assumption that I would have more skills than someone who has never stepped into a ring?
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)You are assuming a lot.
I have never stepped in the ring but have wrestled with my friends before, just because you haven't had MMA classes doesn't mean you cant take someone down.
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)with training might at the very least be more able at fighting. That is all it's about. It is not as you suggest that something is possible. Anything is possible.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...the person who has NOT had ANY BOXING TRAINING AT ALL
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)and No I wont agree with your statement. I truly don't believe it.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...had more training in MMA than TM
PERIOD end of story
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)a year of MMA(boxing)?
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...the person who didn't
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)all of which give him a distinct advantage over an untrained youth armed with skittles.
Zimmerman also had lived in the area for 3 years, whereas the Martin was visiting, so Zimmerman had an advantage in knowing the area, notwithstanding his inability to remember the names of the 3 streets he patrolled, or thinking he could find the names and numbers at the back of the houses instead of the front.
Perhaps a simple IQ test should be part of licensing to carry concealed.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)and 40lbs bigger means more out of shape.
TM could have ran circles around Z, and what seems to have a longer arm reach.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)training 3x/week for nearly a year will give you more muscle mass, not more fat. Video from that day shows Zimmerman looking quite fit, especially considering that video adds about 15 pounds to appearance.
Martin's combined height and weight make him more of a bean pole than muscle bound. There is nothing in his history suggesting he was a jock, that I am aware of.
So glad to hear age doesn't matter, except yes it does. Your body grows first in height and breadth. It adds muscle mass later. So age gives more muscle mass, along with more life experience. You learn dirty tricks as you go.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)assault on a cop, in that he was arrested.
He also "won" the sexual molestation of a minor due to family intervention.
Quite a history. Zimmerman carries some ugly baggage that shows an ugly character.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)I'm sure you could find bad things about anyone to make them look evil.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)means no text on the body. So your "n/t" in the topic line is misleading.
Having been sexually molested and physically abused as a child, and stalked on multiple occasions as an adult, I do consider physical abuse, molestation and stalking to be "evil" behavior.
We're not talking about a single incident here. We're looking at a pattern of behavior. I'll wager I can find many, many people who have never physically abused or molested anybody in their lifetime, never mind multiple incidents within 28 years of their life, not to mention hunting down and shooting a stranger to death at point blank range.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Finnmccool
(74 posts)It's a combo of many forms of fighting.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Finnmccool
(74 posts)kick boxing and Brazilian Jujitsu.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)You could never have a conclusion.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)....training has LESS of an advantage than the person with no
ALL THINGS EQUAL
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)are you trying to say that TM wasn't able to defend himself without MMA training?
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)I said I imagine, because I have seen hundreds of kids wrestling.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...because the black guy is the better athelete vs boxer
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)and who is this boxer??
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...for almost a year would have the advantage in a fight over the person with NONE at all.
A 200lb grown man with almost a years worth of MMA training and a gun gets beat up by a 150-ish lb 10th grader....
OK...
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)someone who hasn't had any.
If TM knew a simple leg lock, according to the trainer, TM would know more about the move than Z would.
Nine
(1,741 posts)And it certainly isn't a milder form of fighting than boxing if that's what you're trying to imply with your nitpicking. An MMA fighter generally has the advantage over a mere boxer.
In the early 1990s, practitioners of grappling based styles such as Brazilian jiu-jitsu dominated competition in the United States. Practitioners of striking based arts such as boxing, kickboxing, and karate who were unfamiliar with submission grappling proved to be unprepared to deal with its submission techniques.
By the defense's own admission, Zimmerman, the former bouncer, had hundreds of hours of MMA training. But in a fight with a skinny, unarmed teenager he was in fear for his life?
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)One thing I find interesting is they keep trying to play down the size difference. Zimmerman had 40 lbs on Trayvon. Yes, Trayvon was taller but boxing has weight classes not height classes. Zimmerman would be a heavyweight I think at the time of the shooting and what would Trayvon have been? Welterweight? Maybe Middleweight?
Also, I'm not sure what difference claims Z couldn't fight make since he was armed nd we have no idea about Trayvon's ability. Besides not being able to fight isn't cause to use deadly force.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Did he call Zimmerman an inept unmanly clumsy nerd? And that is the guy who is voluntarily protecting the neighborhood. Wow. Pee Wee Herman. I never made that association before. Thanks defense team.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)by comparing Zimmerman's prowess at MMA to Pee Wee's ability to do martial arts.
Personally, I wish PeeWee had been the block watch guy. He and Trayvon would have shared Skittles and the poor kid would still be alive.
JustAnotherGen
(31,881 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Sustained.
Duh! Zimmerman isn't Leo.
And then wanted witness to testified whether Z had ill-will firing his weapon. Um, seriously?? Apparently this guy is a psychic friend or something. Besides, you're not going to convince me shooting a man in the chest is anything but ill-will.
This testimony is a joke.
Oh and whether Z could fight or not may be subjective, but I personally think someone with 40 lbs on me and a gun is way more of a threat to me than I am to them.
avebury
(10,952 posts)bob kealing ?@bobkealing 4m Root: re gun fired in close range one time: does not suggest ill will spite or hatred. Again elements of second degree murder.
I don't know about you but I regard anybody who shot and killed me to have felt ill will towards me.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)as an accidental shooting. I consider them to be intentional or negligence.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)neglience on the part of the gun owner.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)about any shooter having ill will.
I take "any" to mean "any." Silly me.
avebury
(10,952 posts)careless enough to leave a loaded gun where anyone (child, stranger, whatever) could get ahold of it and and shoot harldy holds the life of others in good will. In the case of a child accessing a loaded gun, the child becomes the instrument of the gun owner's ill will toward the life of others.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)so it was intentional, and not friendly.
(but maybe you are challenging a generalization about
ALL shootings, I'm not sure.)
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)I think he wants us all to carry fully loaded ("and ARMED" guns, and preferably with hollow-point bullets!
THIS MAN IS A GUN-NUT.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)If you are carrying a gun, it would be stupid to carry it while not loaded.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)He was saying that IF you are going to carry a gun, it is STUPID to not have it leaded. Not that everyone should have a loaded gun.
Saturday
(3,744 posts)Root beats him by a mile. Aren't we glad this expert on all things contacted the defense so he could show us all his wide range of expertise?
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Just reinforces my belief that there was no way Trayvon saw the gun. He also testified how very dark it was. Not sure this is helping the defense.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)He's doing it for marketing for his consulting business.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Some expert!
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)after asking Root did he hear Zimmerman say to the dispatcher that he thought Martin might have something in his hand.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)they guys are just bought and paid for! they are doing nothing but lying! how dare they!
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...evidence they DID look at was from the defense...
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)pokerfan
(27,677 posts)They said it was for language, For anyone watching on-line, what exactly was the objectionable language?
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)The consultant shockingly doesn't think those infer malice or hate.
pokerfan
(27,677 posts)It was a good opportunity to remind the jury of Zimmerman's own words describing Martin: a fucking punk and a God damned asshole.
avebury
(10,952 posts)a lazy witness. For someone to claim to be such an expert, his work appears incomplete at best.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Ninga
(8,277 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)I cannot believe that the Defense thought that he would be a good witness.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)bob kealing ?@bobkealing 9m Yep, think so@AlisiaEsq: @bobkealing no backfire yet, but I think female jurors are enjoying Guy's performance with the mannequin
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Cause he sure is helping them.
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)Spazito
(50,453 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)And he's not going to get any clients this day! I see the prosecution is not happy with him.
chelsea0011
(10,115 posts)the change of season. What an expert.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Exactly what a lot of people have been saying. I love that the prosecutor acted it out. From the look of that, if it's accurate, not only could Trayvon not see the gun, but Zimmerman couldn't possibly have gotten to it.
And let's not forget, all of the actual altercation happened in about one minute.
And a minute ago the witness admitted "I didn't spend a lot of time asking him (Zimmerman) a lot of things."
Spazito
(50,453 posts)very well done!
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)TM was going for his gun. That would make Z fear for his life.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)The prosecutor acted out how Zimmerman said the altercation happened with a dummy and showed Trayvon would have been sitting over and above where Z claimed the gun was. If accurate, there's no way Z could reach the gun.
This guy also testifies how well this holster hides the gun and like several others how very dark it was out there.
So to believe Zimmerman we have to believe he saw a gun, in a black holster concealed in Zimmerman's pants that was under Zimmerman, in the dark and behind where he was supposedly sitting on Z.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)I can claim I can fly but it doesn't make it so.
He hasn't said HOW Zimmerman got his hands free and reached under and around Trayvon to get his gun out of the holster down in his pants in the back.
It's not just illogical but looks physically impossible.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)JimDandy
(7,318 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)did not advise the non-emergency operator that he was carrying. Heck if the timing had been different, he might have been shot by a police officer.
FarPoint
(12,437 posts)I raised such a question here at DU a few days ago.
avebury
(10,952 posts)police officers who shoot first and ask questions later on.
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)Why isn't the lawyer asking this 'force escalation expert' whether TM de-escalated when he ran? Shouldn't he try to get the expert to say that the one known de-ecsalation the entire night came from the victim. Why isn't he demonstrating how unlikely a 90 degree angle would be if we are to take GZs account?
The big point is who started the confrontation. The only testimony as to the start comes from the defendant, the shooter. His credibility is paramount.
My big issue is on GZs non-911 call. Roughly 8 seconds go by from his closing the car door to his being told, "We don't need you to do that." Another 1:40 go by on that call. GZ is going anywhere but back to his truck. If he is at the T as he claims, why ask the dispatcher to be called instead of meet at his truck.
GZ has soft-pedaled his initial statements time and again, and exaggerated his injuries.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)He says his head was 'smashed' into concrete 20-30 times, to the point where his head was going to explode. He had two scrapes on the back of his head with no bruising, and no fractures. He said he received 25-30 blows to the face and head. A beating so brutal he refused medical treatment. Take a good look at the cleaned up George 24-36 hours later. No swelling, nor black eyes.
Serino and Singleton catch him seft-pedaling his complicity. When asked on the non-911 tape "are you following?" he replies "Yes." He has tried to walk that back every time since. Serino: Are you following? GZ: No, I just went in the direction he did. Serino: That's following. His claims have varied from 'I was trying to spot him from afar for the cops', to 'I was on my way back to the truck,' to ''I was trying to get an address.' His story is he was doing anything but actually looking for him, because that would be bad legally. A minute forty on the phone, and more time afterward. His claim doesn't fit.
He claimed he didn't know if he even hit him with the bullet, yet holstered his gun, walked away, took out his cell phone, and spoke to his neighbor. He says he didn't know he killed him until hours later while with the police, but every other 911 call has poeple saying/crying within 10-20 seconds of the shooting that someone is dead.
That's off the top of my head.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)How could he not think he'd hit him? Of course he knew he did, that's why he didn't think of him as a threat, hence the holstering of the gun. The statement that he didn't even know was GZ trying to play down the severity of his actions.
I guess we concur on the other lies?
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)What an ass.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)The only version of the story we have is Zimmerman's so if its a lie so is his self-defense claim.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)what are you an expert in?
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...like it helped the PA more than defense.
Saying it doesn't matter how GZ got his gun when it was covered by TM's leg no matter what the angle GZ was in is an illogical statement at best
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)I would say Root isn't helping any side.
he certainly isn't helping the prosecution prove anything.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...regards
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Ill take the experts word over yours.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...of the story instead of looking like a stone cold idiot and not taking all material info into account.
Because root is a hack and he doesnt' want to further look like an idiot for believing only the defense of course he would say it doesn't matter how GZ got a gun, that be all logical accounts, was not accessible to him or TM
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Zimmerman is claiming self-defense. If the gun was already in his hand when the altercation started it shows that it was Trayvon who was defending himself from a creepy guy who had pulled a gun on him.
When Zimmerman pulled his gun is very important to the jury!
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)You saw the reenactment based on Zummerman's account. How did he get to the gun?
If you don't think when the gun was pulled is significant then you don't understand Zimmerman's defense.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)So if you see he has lied, your opinion might change.
The only proof we have that Trayvon hit Z is again Z's story.
So how did he get to the gun with Trayvon sitting on his hands and chest? How did Trayvon see the gun in Z's pants, in the dark, in a black holster?
And Zimmerman couldn't just shoot Trayvon because he was being hit, he had to fear for his life and his injuries really don't show how any reasonable person could have.
My problem with it is that there are huge holes in Z's story so I don't believe him. Everything else goes back to that.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)if someone is on my chest and my arms are at my side I would be able to reach my gun on my side.
Possible the handle of the gun was slightly above the belt line after being roughed up on the ground.
If Z thought his life was in danger after having his head hit against cement then he would be able to shoot TM.
If you are getting hit in the head, you don't know if the injuries are bad enough to kill you or not, you just FEAR that you could die. am I wrong?
frylock
(34,825 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)the holster was in his waistband on his back. have you been following this at all?
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)no proof of that, am I correct?
frylock
(34,825 posts)but you just made a statement that would infer that the gun was holstered on GZ's side, when we know that is factually incorrect, correct?
frylock
(34,825 posts)what gives?
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)who solicited the defense team for his services, who was ill prepared, and was also ANNIHILATED by the prosecution. feel free to hang your hat on this bozo if you like!
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uppityperson
(115,679 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)or should I say, jedi mind tricks, working they are not.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)Response to frylock (Reply #365)
Post removed
frylock
(34,825 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Hide.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Ninja turtle wants his pizza.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
I was either juror # 1, 5, or 6. IMO, no explanation was required.
frylock
(34,825 posts)i'm guessing the leave it vote was from one of my many fans here.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Thanks to all who are weighing through all of this.
Question to all who have followed it in detail:
How do you think it is going.
Thanks in advance.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)I think the defense has a strong case for 2nd.
It's unknown whether the jury will agree.
Judge seems frequently annoyed by the defense.
Defense has presented a parade of witnesses
none of whom seemed credible to me.
Defense is supposed to close today and there
are legal issues they have to deal with in
the court and then I guess the Prosecution
presents its rebuttal.
I realize this probably doesn't tell you much..
actually it's been a bit of a nailbiter.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)manslaughter using a gun of a child = serious crime,
penalties almost comparable to 2nd degree w/gun.
There are some funny laws in FL "10-20-LIFE"
related to the use of a gun in the commission
of any crime. I'm not clear if it ups the sentence,
or it imposes an additional concurrent mandatory
sentence.
I would be SHOCKED if the jury acquitted.
There's no way his claim of self-defense has
proved believable (my opinion).
justanaverageguy
(186 posts)is it that after the defense presents a prima facie (which I think they have) case for self defense that it is up to the prosecution to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt??
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)for self defense, unless the jury is not too bright
or has a pre-held bias.
I'm not a legal expert so I can't give you
a legal opinion or explanation, just my own
point of view.
justanaverageguy
(186 posts)but I do believe they presented a prima facie case, which is to say that if you take them for their word and view the facts (as stated by them) in their favor they did present a prima facie case for self defense. I think then once that is done it's up to the prosecution to prove that the self defense claim is bogus.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)Yes the rebuttal after the defense rests will
be interesting.
Gawd.. West is objecting to the judge
Link to afternoon Thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023216577#post20
grantcart
(53,061 posts)He will not be able to argue any grounds of 'ineffective counsel'.
I was also shocked when I watched the investigative cop on a recorded interview where it seemed that from the outset he was coaching Zimmerman with leading questions "so you were afraid for your life, right?"
I don't know why this particular case has affected me so deeply but it has. I cannot bear to watch it.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)and frankly I think it is a hugely important case.
Plus it is heartrending.
I haven't watched Arrested Development but
my daughter was telling me there's a character
named Bob Loblaw. And he has a law blog.
I am still laughing, trying to say "Bob Loblaw's Law Blog."
Now when I listen to the defense I keep
thinking bobloblaw...
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)croakerqueen123 puts up the whole trial at the end of every day's testimony...
http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123/videos
If you want, you can watch as much as you like there, skip over sidebars, breaks, any boring bits, and do so when you feel like it and have the time. I've watched the whole trial this way since I can't watch live. It goes a heck of a lot faster this way too since sooo much is sidebars, breaks and boring bits.
Spazito
(50,453 posts)this witness has hurt, not helped, the defense and O'Mara is pissed, imo.
avebury
(10,952 posts)if someone is bleeding out in less then 3 minutes, does Root think that there would be blood in Martin's body to show the results of any attack from Zimmerman?
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...is possible that Serino and GZ are KKK Grand Dragons and don't like people of color and that's why they drug tested the dead black kid and not the live shooter.
ANYTHING is possible....
I don't find it PROBABLE that a relatively fit, 200lb, MMA trained GZ got beat up by a 150lb 10th grade high school kid....
That doesn't even sound right.....I know a lot of 10th grade kids.... they aint beaten up nAthin...
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)looks like we know different 10th graders.
Its probable that you don't care about a trial and just want to see Z locked up.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)....that shows me he didn't touch GZ
I'm not taking GZ's word for it, he's a damn liar
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)I'm guessing you believe Z hit himself after he shot TM and gave himself his own injuries, right?
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...Z bleed NONE?!
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)GZ did in fact inflict his own injuries to help bolster his self defense claim. About as possible as the notion he was a helpless, defenseless wimp who had to shoot an unarmed 158 lb kid in order to save his own life.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)can that be proven in court?
libodem
(19,288 posts)Shaving that bald dome. And I figure after he shot Martin he knew he was so stupid,
he meant to do a head slap and broke his own nose. Makes as much sense as his lies.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)libodem
(19,288 posts)But seriously don't you think that if Z nose were broken and there was blood under his nose and in his mouth, and it was choking him flowing down the back of his throat he would have been gargling when he claimed it was himself screaming. And that Travon would have had blood on his hands from alledgedly suffocating him. Travon, should have had his hands smeared with DNA. They were clean.
polly7
(20,582 posts)It doesn't show any such thing. It shows that the lying, stalking Zimmerman somehow managed to obtain a couple of little boo-boos once he'd cornered his prey. And yes, I do want to see 'Z'/liar/stalker locked up.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)....but that's mostly on Z's shoulders for not changing his mind to the realities of his surroundings....
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...was REALLY REALLY frustrated at the amount of theft and his apartment had been broken into recently IIRC.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)mzmolly
(51,004 posts)cases?
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)mzmolly
(51,004 posts)do you know, who rough up teenagers?
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)Z is not a trained MMA fighter...
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...contender because he was a young man
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)I would say that being badly trained doesn't make you anything except not knowledgeable in what you were trained in.
If Z was trained at all he should be able to enter the ring and the trainer has said he wouldn't let him do that.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)mzmolly
(51,004 posts)against a cop and a former fiance? Oh wait......
mzmolly
(51,004 posts)hands? .... After being trained for a year to fight?
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)mzmolly
(51,004 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)mzmolly
(51,004 posts)such a jester.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)mzmolly
(51,004 posts)Eom
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)you must be crazy if you do.
mzmolly
(51,004 posts)something other than pulling a weapon.
HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)trainer though.
mzmolly
(51,004 posts)or toss a woman across a room?
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)HeroInAHalfShell
(330 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)Kali
(55,019 posts)judge spanking defense atts
Finnmccool
(74 posts)unless you are a infant or on your death bed. We learn at a very young age that having our thumb bent back hurts. We also learn biting hurts. GZ said TM covered his mouth with one hand with the fingers on one side and the thumb on the other. He couldn't grab the thumb and bend it? He couldn't bite the hand?
avebury
(10,952 posts)the brightest bulb in the room.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)Root looks like a deer in the headlights. You can see the fear in his eyes.
The Jolly Green Giant?
tom_kelly
(962 posts)Lisa D
(1,532 posts)Zimmerman will not testify.