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Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 03:42 PM Jul 2013

"A jury has spoken."

I have pretty much stayed out of the Trayvon Martin discussions, especially as pertains to Zimmerman's culpability or lack thereof. This is mostly because I didn't have all the information at my disposal.

Juries sometimes do the wrong thing--sometimes by convicting on the basis of inadequate evidence, inadequate comprehension of the evidence, or simple prejudice, and sometimes by a finding of Not Guilty, also on the basis of inadequate evidence, inadequate comprehension of the evidence, or simple prejudice.

I have had a role in a lot of proceedings that gave me a depth of insight, and have often seen juries deliver verdicts I believed, based on my particular expertise, to be wrong. Sometimes people whom I consider obviously guilty go free, and other times, IMO, the innocent are wrongfully convicted.

On other occasions, I have seen juries collectively exercise great wisdom.

(OK, before proceeding, I admit it--"Good jury" = "agrees with me"; "bad jury" = "dsiagrees with me.&quot

You never know what a jury is going to do. Any trial is a crapshoot.

Juries and jury trials are a seriously flawed social social institution.

But I know of nothing better.

I have testified before various judges (some of them now on a State Supreme Court whose members amuse themselves by physically throttling each other) whom I would never trust to give fair consideration of the evidence, particularly if the defendant was an indigent Somali or, on the other hand, a well-heeled corporation. In those circumstances, if my interest were in fairness of outcome, I would much rather throw my lot with a jury trial. Sometimes a crap shoot is better than an assuredly corrupt decision.

So, back to Zimmerman. The verdict is in. There is unlikely to be an appeal. Maybe the decision was corrupted by racism, or maybe it was bungled by a lousy prosecution. Or maybe it was even the right decision. I don't know, and I lack the knowledge to be second-guessing, particularly in the context of some rather crazy Florida law.

All I know is that our system is very imperfect, but then so is every attainable alternative. It is, to borrow a thought from Winston Churchill, the worst system in existence--except for all the others.

It is time to move on. It is time to channel our outrage, or sorrow, or whatever emotions are clouding our world right now, into productive effort.

Killing the jury system is not the answer.

Working to transform ourselves into a society where black kids can get home safely with their hoodies and their Skittles is a lot more useful outlet for what we are feeling.

On this one, I stand with Obama. "A jury has spoken."

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
3. I recced your OP just because of...
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 03:45 PM
Jul 2013

"State Supreme Court whose members amuse themselves by physically throttling each other." Good stuff there - any details you can share?

BTW, I also agree with the rest of the OP.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
5. Try this--
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 03:48 PM
Jul 2013
http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/steven_elbow/justice-ann-walsh-bradley-unloads-on-david-prosser/article_08cd5a34-7619-11e2-a3cc-0019bb2963f4.html

Partisan and personal differences within the Wisconsin Supreme Court again flared Wednesday when Justice Ann Walsh Bradley issued a letter saying security measures were in place to guard against abusive and threatening behavior by fellow Justice David Prosser well before the infamous incident during which Prosser put his hands around her neck.

"Although this plan was in effect two months before Justice Prosser and the other justices came to my office on the evening of July 13, 2011, it did not prevent him from becoming agitated and grabbing my neck, wrapping them in a full circle around my neck," she writes.

Bradley’s statements come less than a week before the three-way primary in which Justice Patience Roggensack is seeking re-election to another 10-year term.

In a sharply worded letter to attorneys connected to the case and the Judicial Commission, Bradley singles out recent statements from Roggensack contending that talk of dysfunction and incivility on the court is “just a bunch of gossip at its worst.”

“It strains credulity that a justice on our court would be perpetuating the myth that our issues of workplace safety and work environment have somehow healed themselves,” Bradley writes.


Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/steven_elbow/justice-ann-walsh-bradley-unloads-on-david-prosser/article_08cd5a34-7619-11e2-a3cc-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz2Z3Enz8xx

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,732 posts)
8. I agree. A jury trial is absolutely a crapshoot.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 04:07 PM
Jul 2013

Speaking from experience - my former career, until I just couldn't stand it any longer, was as a trial lawyer - I soon realized that even under the best-controlled circumstances you are rolling the dice. There are extensive methods and procedures for selecting a jury but you never really know what's in someone's head when you question them on voir dire. You don't know whether they are telling the truth or just saying something they think you want to hear (either to get off the jury or stay on it, or maybe just to look like a decent, fair person). You can eliminate jurors for cause, and each side gets a certain number of peremptory challenges, so you can at least hope to get rid of jurors you think might be prejudiced against your client - but you just don't know. There are procedures for getting a different judge if you don't think you can get a fair hearing from the one who was assigned the case, but the new judge might be just as bad, or worse.

There are all kinds of procedures for the discovery of evidence and for deposing, interviewing, examining and cross-examining witnesses, but sometimes a witness will jump the rails and do or say something completely out of left field. And your case goes swirling down the toilet.

Sometimes your case just sucks on the facts, or maybe your client or main witness is an unlikeable douche. But you might win anyhow because - who knows? Or you might have a great case with a likeable client and solid evidence and you lose anyhow. Maybe some juror got a bug up his butt about something you never thought of and persuaded the rest of them to decide on the basis of something incredibly minor or stupid or irrelevant. Sometimes you just don't know. Maybe you fucked it up. Maybe the judge hated you, or your client. Maybe there was a full moon.

And we don't know why the jury in the Zimmerman case decided the way they did. Maybe eventually one of the jurors will speak up and we'll find out. For now we can only speculate - maybe they were racist; or maybe they thought the prosecution didn't prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Or maybe something else. I don't agree with the verdict but I wasn't there.

There will be no appeal in this case; the state can't appeal from an acquittal. So it's done, at least this aspect of it. The system is, indeed, imperfect. Sometimes it seems downright random, which I found extremely frustrating. But it is what it is, and it does no good to accuse this jury of racism or stupidity or any other malfeasance. What the OP said is what needs to be done: "Working to transform ourselves into a society where black kids can get home safely with their hoodies and their Skittles is a lot more useful outlet for what we are feeling."

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
9. I agree. The system is far from perfect but it's the best we have and better than most I've heard of
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 04:35 PM
Jul 2013

in other parts of the world. The jury had to agree beyond a reasonable doubt and that's no easy task as those that have served on juries know.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
11. I just recognize that justice can be very hard to attain.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 04:57 PM
Jul 2013

And I would think very hard about replacing the very flawed system we have, because what we get could be infinitely worse.

LeftInTX

(25,369 posts)
12. I didn't follow this case in-depth because I was afraid something like this would happen
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 05:38 PM
Jul 2013

Still the verdict is heartbreaking

When the police didn't want to arrest him and when pics of Zimmerman's bloody nose/scalp emerged it was kinda like "the fix was in".

Something wasn't quite right with that police dept.
Unfortunately, the case boiled down to Zimmerman's word against Trayvon's.

I guess the jury just thought it was self-defense because Zimmerman said it was self-defense and had a bloody nose.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
13. I'm extremely angry over the verdict but the Prosecution didn't make its case
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 05:59 PM
Jul 2013

I don't want to concentrated on that unjust verdict or even on Trayvon because he's not the first and most certainly won't be the last young Black male to lose his life so unjustly.

The question isn't 'how did the jury system fail Trayvon?" It's 'Why does the party with the best for-profit lawyers almost always win?' I'm not mad at the jury, I'm mad at the system.

If Trayvon had been some poor white girl from the trailer parks, I doubt the outcome would have been any different.

Trayvon didn't win because our system isn't set up to protect people like him.



 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
15. What did you make of the line that immediately preceded that, i.e., "We
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 06:10 PM
Jul 2013

are a nation of laws." Funny how that line didn't come up when President Obama was deciding whether Bush, Cheney and the Junta would face criminal investigations for torture. Then there was no mention of "nation of laws." Instead, it was "We need to look forward, not backward" (a line guaranteed to insult anyone with more than two active brain cells).

As to the jury system, it is a man-made institution and can be changed by the same society that practices it. Just as lawyers and judges have to go to school to practice, I think maybe jurors should now be required to attend and pass a course, thereby creating a class of 'professional jurors'. I offer this suggestion very, very tentatively, aware that it may rub some people the wrong way. But how well did the vaunted jury system work when George Zimmerman walks free but Trayvon Martin walks no more?

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
16. As I indicated, I stand with Obama
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 08:00 PM
Jul 2013
in this instance.

And my point about the jury system is that you're better off with a relatively random selection than with what would probably result from any selection procedure. In fact, I think some of the traditional elements of voir dire should be modified. It probably makes no sense in a high-profile case to try to find jurors who have had no exposure to the story. This intrudes a selection of its own--you tend to get low-information, not-very-bright people. The same thing results from exclusion of professionals with specialized knowledge related to the case. And we're far too free at letting people give excuses to avoid duty. Maybe we need laws that require employers to give time off with pay to jurors, for example.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
18. Thanks fore the link. Cali & I are on exactly the same page here.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 12:23 PM
Jul 2013

I also posted something on that thread.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»"A jury has spoken."