Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:29 PM Jul 2013

Stand Your Ground Laws

Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2013, 03:03 AM - Edit history (1)

"Stand your ground" laws are a class of changes to the traditional theory of self defense.

You are pretty much always allowed to protect your life. You have always been able to use deadly force if doing so was necessary to protect your life.

Sometimes a person in public might be attacked or threatened in a circumstance where he could shoot the other guy OR retreat from the other guy.

If you could protect your life either way, then shooting the guy would not be necessary.

If you retreated into your home then your obligation to retreat ended. If he came in the front door you were not obliged to run down to your basement. You could employ deadly force in your home.

SYG laws remove the obligation to retreat. They empower a person attacked or threatened (for real, not just in his mind) to "meet force with force."

Essentially saying, what always applied to your home now applies everywhere.

This is a very controversial sort of law since it expands the class of justifiable homicides to include a theoretical set of unnecessary killings. (I am against SYG laws.)

_____________

Self defense is nothing new in law. A lot of conventional self-defense law has been conflated with SYG in discussion of the Zimmerman trial, but SYG refers only to a change in the legal definition of one's obligations when facing deadly force or imminent threat of such. (Again, for real.) The SYG movement is a very tea-baggy thing... essentially, "Why should I have to run into my house like a girl? I should be able to have a shoot-out on the sidewalk."

By the ground being stood is still being stood against force. You have to be attacked or seriously threatened (for real) for it to come into play, legally.

_____________


In the Zimmerman case, SYG doctrine does not really come into play. Neither side, defense or prosecution, ever argued a theory or set of facts that would invoke it. (It was included in jury instructions because SYG doctrine is written into the law governing self-defense in Florida, but is law to cover a certain circumstance that the Zimmerman case did not feature.)

SYG would only come into play if Zimmerman was attacked/mortally-imperiled by Trayvon Martin (force) and Zimmerman had a clear avenue of retreat.

If Trayvon did not attack GZ there is no force to be met with force. In the prosecution's view, Zimmerman never faced sufficient force to justify using lethal force against TM, so there was no such force to retreat from.

From the defense's side, if Trayvon attacked GZ and was on top of him when the shot was fired, then GZ had no reasonable avenue of retreat.

So whichever scenario one takes, there is no SYG involved.

(One could probably speculate to think up a SYG scenario in the Zimmerman case, but it wouldn't be easy because TM was not armed and thus he had no ability to threaten death or serious injury at a distance.)

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Stand Your Ground Laws (Original Post) cthulu2016 Jul 2013 OP
Thank you for (once again) giving COLGATE4 Jul 2013 #1
If a black person is involved in a STAND YOUR GROUND case, the decision always seems swayne Jul 2013 #2
Considering how scary-exciting-time warping-attention demanding-priority shifting... Half-Century Man Jul 2013 #3
Quick tidbit of info on that: Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #6
Do you remember where you read that? The distribution of number of shots petronius Jul 2013 #8
I wish this came up forty five minutes ago. Let me try to find it again. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #9
Sorry, brother. Not seeing it. I'll check again tomorrow. Passing out. n/t Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #14
More than once I've heard the advice.. Half-Century Man Jul 2013 #13
I can't say I've ever considered it; no truly functioning pistols. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2013 #15
Sold the Firearms I had when I got sick 12 years ago Half-Century Man Jul 2013 #22
It is shoot until they are no longer a threat and warning shots are illegal in most states n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #16
Maybe so... Half-Century Man Jul 2013 #17
In the end it is your choice, just understand Lurks Often Jul 2013 #18
The only way I would be aiming a gun at someone now is... Half-Century Man Jul 2013 #20
I hope I NEVER have to shoot another person n/t Lurks Often Jul 2013 #23
ALEC and the NRA are RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS...Let's GO AFTER THEM! KoKo Jul 2013 #4
Thanks for the explanation, perhaps you could explain what it means when the law says that the cheyanne Jul 2013 #5
A juror must have something approaching certainty that someone is guilty. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #11
In SYG is there such a thing as excessive force? dkf Jul 2013 #7
Actually, SYG did come in to play in the Zimmerman case. DanTex Jul 2013 #10
I agree with you. In that sense it did come into play. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #12
The only place I can remotely see SYG applicable... roamer65 Jul 2013 #19
Very nicely done. DirkGently Jul 2013 #21

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
1. Thank you for (once again) giving
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:34 PM
Jul 2013

a lucid and accurate explanation of self-defense and SYG. Perhaps some of it will penetrate...

 

swayne

(383 posts)
2. If a black person is involved in a STAND YOUR GROUND case, the decision always seems
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:38 PM
Jul 2013

to be one that goes AGAINST the black person, be they the plaintiff or defendant. In too many cases, SYG is being used as a way to abuse people of color.

This is why they are so upset. Black people don't usually get positive outcomes in SYG or self defense court situations.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
3. Considering how scary-exciting-time warping-attention demanding-priority shifting...
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:41 PM
Jul 2013

,,,an occurrence a gun fight is. Add that to the fact more than half the gun owners aren't great shots. I'm thinking SYG equals a lot more people shot by stray rounds.

 

Decoy of Fenris

(1,954 posts)
6. Quick tidbit of info on that:
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:45 PM
Jul 2013

Average number of shots fired in a personal defense scenario involving a gun hovers from zero to two, with two being the outlier. Just read that recently, though I'd let you know.

petronius

(26,606 posts)
8. Do you remember where you read that? The distribution of number of shots
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:52 PM
Jul 2013

fired has relevance to magazine-capacity discussions as well; it would be very interesting to see an analysis...

 

Decoy of Fenris

(1,954 posts)
9. I wish this came up forty five minutes ago. Let me try to find it again.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:55 PM
Jul 2013

Mag limit was almost a non-issue; I think the total rounds expended was in the realm of 5 shots? But I'll see if I can find the study again.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
13. More than once I've heard the advice..
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:09 PM
Jul 2013

...empty the mag.
Personally, I prefer aiming. That's wrong, personally, I prefer avoidance. Then detente (Visual display and repeated loud warnings). Then a warning shot into a backstop. Aiming is, at best, my fourth choice.

 

Decoy of Fenris

(1,954 posts)
15. I can't say I've ever considered it; no truly functioning pistols.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:13 PM
Jul 2013

Most of my firearms are bolt-action, and they're all non-pistols. Outside of three instances where I genuinely did have to protect my life (thankfully never shot), you'll likely never see me with a gun, unless I'm at or going to a tournament. :0

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
22. Sold the Firearms I had when I got sick 12 years ago
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:36 PM
Jul 2013

Chemotherapy is expensive. Now a days, house breaker will be facing a Katana.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
17. Maybe so...
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:23 PM
Jul 2013

...It is a terrible choice between break the law in the safest way available or separate a soul and body. I have stated my preference.

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
18. In the end it is your choice, just understand
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:27 PM
Jul 2013

that firing that warning shot is generally considered evidence that deadly force was not warranted and makes it highly probable that it will be YOU doing jail time.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
20. The only way I would be aiming a gun at someone now is...
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:33 PM
Jul 2013

..in a no-escape situation.
If I still had a gun.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
4. ALEC and the NRA are RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS...Let's GO AFTER THEM!
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:42 PM
Jul 2013

ALEC is the Worst...but NRA is involved.

We need to stop this SHIT from happening...but, realize ...you are never gonna take away Guns from the Southern Half of the USA....Unless you convince them about how ALEC has MANIPULATED THEM!

There needs to be a strategy.. I don't know what that strategy will be..but, I believe that SMART FOLKS will FIND A WAY to get BOTH SIDES together for some Common Cause..that maybe we don't see right now...BUT...it will come.

We gotta (as Dems) keep on WORKING/TRUCKING...whatever it TAKES!

cheyanne

(733 posts)
5. Thanks for the explanation, perhaps you could explain what it means when the law says that the
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:43 PM
Jul 2013

prosecution must prove its scenario beyond a reasonable doubt.

Does that mean that a juror may believe the defendant is guilty, but must acquit if the state doesn't prove their case?

People are saying that the jurors "believed" the defense's case, but might not the juror not "believe" the defense's case and still vote for acquittal?

thanks for any help you can give.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
11. A juror must have something approaching certainty that someone is guilty.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:58 PM
Jul 2013

That is *approaching* certainty, rather than certainty because we cannot be certain 100% of much of anything.

A reasonable doubt is any doubt based on reason. You can think of a way the person is innocent that fits the evidence and that doesn't require flights of fancy.

Say the only evidence is an eyewitness who picked a robber out of a line-up. Is it unreasonable that someone could be mistaken in that identification?

On the other hand, if the evidence is a fingerprint, we can reasonably say that no two fingerprints are alike... even though we have never checked everyone.

Beyond a reasonable doubt does mean beyond any doubt, but if there is a plausible interpretation of the evidence where the defendant is not guilty and a plausible interpretation where he is guilty then he must be found not guilty even if the guilty scenario/interpretation is likelier.

The standard of confidence of guilt in a criminal trial is way more than likely to be guilty or probably guilty.

A way I like to think of it is "would you stake someone else's life on your certainty" because that is really what a convicting juror is doing. Not staking his own life, but staking all or a big part of someone else's life.



DanTex

(20,709 posts)
10. Actually, SYG did come in to play in the Zimmerman case.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 07:58 PM
Jul 2013

Maybe it shouldn't have come in to play, but the fact that at least one juror has said that SYG was part of the rationale for her decision means that, unless she was lying, it most certainly did come into play.

You might argue that this particular juror was an idiot, and didn't understand the law, but idiot jurors are part of the system.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
12. I agree with you. In that sense it did come into play.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:00 PM
Jul 2013

And in the sense of an overall cowboy mentality in the state it came into play indirectly.

It is part of a "shoot everybody, ask questions later" mentality that probably was involved in some way.

roamer65

(36,747 posts)
19. The only place I can remotely see SYG applicable...
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:29 PM
Jul 2013

...is in your place of residence (aka at home). All other places you need to retreat if it will end the confrontation.

Most of these SYG laws need to be changed or repealed.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
21. Very nicely done.
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 08:34 PM
Jul 2013

The prosecution utterly failed to suggest a narrative that did not involve Z shooting from a pinned position. Once you have that, in order to convict Z, you either have to not believe a reasonable person felt they were in mortal danger, or follow some culpable negligence route through manslaughter.
.
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Stand Your Ground Laws