General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsStand Your Ground Laws
Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2013, 03:03 AM - Edit history (1)
"Stand your ground" laws are a class of changes to the traditional theory of self defense.
You are pretty much always allowed to protect your life. You have always been able to use deadly force if doing so was necessary to protect your life.
Sometimes a person in public might be attacked or threatened in a circumstance where he could shoot the other guy OR retreat from the other guy.
If you could protect your life either way, then shooting the guy would not be necessary.
If you retreated into your home then your obligation to retreat ended. If he came in the front door you were not obliged to run down to your basement. You could employ deadly force in your home.
SYG laws remove the obligation to retreat. They empower a person attacked or threatened (for real, not just in his mind) to "meet force with force."
Essentially saying, what always applied to your home now applies everywhere.
This is a very controversial sort of law since it expands the class of justifiable homicides to include a theoretical set of unnecessary killings. (I am against SYG laws.)
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Self defense is nothing new in law. A lot of conventional self-defense law has been conflated with SYG in discussion of the Zimmerman trial, but SYG refers only to a change in the legal definition of one's obligations when facing deadly force or imminent threat of such. (Again, for real.) The SYG movement is a very tea-baggy thing... essentially, "Why should I have to run into my house like a girl? I should be able to have a shoot-out on the sidewalk."
By the ground being stood is still being stood against force. You have to be attacked or seriously threatened (for real) for it to come into play, legally.
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In the Zimmerman case, SYG doctrine does not really come into play. Neither side, defense or prosecution, ever argued a theory or set of facts that would invoke it. (It was included in jury instructions because SYG doctrine is written into the law governing self-defense in Florida, but is law to cover a certain circumstance that the Zimmerman case did not feature.)
SYG would only come into play if Zimmerman was attacked/mortally-imperiled by Trayvon Martin (force) and Zimmerman had a clear avenue of retreat.
If Trayvon did not attack GZ there is no force to be met with force. In the prosecution's view, Zimmerman never faced sufficient force to justify using lethal force against TM, so there was no such force to retreat from.
From the defense's side, if Trayvon attacked GZ and was on top of him when the shot was fired, then GZ had no reasonable avenue of retreat.
So whichever scenario one takes, there is no SYG involved.
(One could probably speculate to think up a SYG scenario in the Zimmerman case, but it wouldn't be easy because TM was not armed and thus he had no ability to threaten death or serious injury at a distance.)
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)a lucid and accurate explanation of self-defense and SYG. Perhaps some of it will penetrate...
swayne
(383 posts)to be one that goes AGAINST the black person, be they the plaintiff or defendant. In too many cases, SYG is being used as a way to abuse people of color.
This is why they are so upset. Black people don't usually get positive outcomes in SYG or self defense court situations.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts),,,an occurrence a gun fight is. Add that to the fact more than half the gun owners aren't great shots. I'm thinking SYG equals a lot more people shot by stray rounds.
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)Average number of shots fired in a personal defense scenario involving a gun hovers from zero to two, with two being the outlier. Just read that recently, though I'd let you know.
petronius
(26,606 posts)fired has relevance to magazine-capacity discussions as well; it would be very interesting to see an analysis...
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)Mag limit was almost a non-issue; I think the total rounds expended was in the realm of 5 shots? But I'll see if I can find the study again.
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)...empty the mag.
Personally, I prefer aiming. That's wrong, personally, I prefer avoidance. Then detente (Visual display and repeated loud warnings). Then a warning shot into a backstop. Aiming is, at best, my fourth choice.
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)Most of my firearms are bolt-action, and they're all non-pistols. Outside of three instances where I genuinely did have to protect my life (thankfully never shot), you'll likely never see me with a gun, unless I'm at or going to a tournament. :0
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Chemotherapy is expensive. Now a days, house breaker will be facing a Katana.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)...It is a terrible choice between break the law in the safest way available or separate a soul and body. I have stated my preference.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)that firing that warning shot is generally considered evidence that deadly force was not warranted and makes it highly probable that it will be YOU doing jail time.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)..in a no-escape situation.
If I still had a gun.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)ALEC is the Worst...but NRA is involved.
We need to stop this SHIT from happening...but, realize ...you are never gonna take away Guns from the Southern Half of the USA....Unless you convince them about how ALEC has MANIPULATED THEM!
There needs to be a strategy.. I don't know what that strategy will be..but, I believe that SMART FOLKS will FIND A WAY to get BOTH SIDES together for some Common Cause..that maybe we don't see right now...BUT...it will come.
We gotta (as Dems) keep on WORKING/TRUCKING...whatever it TAKES!
cheyanne
(733 posts)prosecution must prove its scenario beyond a reasonable doubt.
Does that mean that a juror may believe the defendant is guilty, but must acquit if the state doesn't prove their case?
People are saying that the jurors "believed" the defense's case, but might not the juror not "believe" the defense's case and still vote for acquittal?
thanks for any help you can give.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)That is *approaching* certainty, rather than certainty because we cannot be certain 100% of much of anything.
A reasonable doubt is any doubt based on reason. You can think of a way the person is innocent that fits the evidence and that doesn't require flights of fancy.
Say the only evidence is an eyewitness who picked a robber out of a line-up. Is it unreasonable that someone could be mistaken in that identification?
On the other hand, if the evidence is a fingerprint, we can reasonably say that no two fingerprints are alike... even though we have never checked everyone.
Beyond a reasonable doubt does mean beyond any doubt, but if there is a plausible interpretation of the evidence where the defendant is not guilty and a plausible interpretation where he is guilty then he must be found not guilty even if the guilty scenario/interpretation is likelier.
The standard of confidence of guilt in a criminal trial is way more than likely to be guilty or probably guilty.
A way I like to think of it is "would you stake someone else's life on your certainty" because that is really what a convicting juror is doing. Not staking his own life, but staking all or a big part of someone else's life.
dkf
(37,305 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Maybe it shouldn't have come in to play, but the fact that at least one juror has said that SYG was part of the rationale for her decision means that, unless she was lying, it most certainly did come into play.
You might argue that this particular juror was an idiot, and didn't understand the law, but idiot jurors are part of the system.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)And in the sense of an overall cowboy mentality in the state it came into play indirectly.
It is part of a "shoot everybody, ask questions later" mentality that probably was involved in some way.
roamer65
(36,747 posts)...is in your place of residence (aka at home). All other places you need to retreat if it will end the confrontation.
Most of these SYG laws need to be changed or repealed.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)The prosecution utterly failed to suggest a narrative that did not involve Z shooting from a pinned position. Once you have that, in order to convict Z, you either have to not believe a reasonable person felt they were in mortal danger, or follow some culpable negligence route through manslaughter.
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