She seems... sensitive.

Of the women she mentioned, Kate Upton is definitely top of the heap. Who gives a crap about high fashion? That girl is amazing....

Kate Upton is amazing, but there are still people out there who will snipe at her.

You won't please the whole world with one standard? Is that a revelation or even a point?

As others have said in this thread... It's conversations like this that make men uncomfortable to be pleasant or polite to women. A simple "You look lovely today" has professional doom written all over it to some and in virtually any setting it gives pause before it is said.

your opinion simply doesn't matter, if it makes you stop and notice it might not be appropriate for you to offer your opinion, then these discussions are working.

I ALWAYS need to consider whether a compliment I give a man will be misconstrued, and I ALWAYS need to be careful when I give compliments to men.

Welcome to the world.

... that look for the deepest of hidden innuendo in any comment.

You say tomato, I say tomato, pal.

... haven pleasant interactions with each other without desperately trying to find out how the other person slighted them.

What a miserable existence it must be for those who insist on imagining nefarious intentions behind even the most benign social interactions. I would almost feel sorry for them if it weren't for their vehement compulsion to try to mold all of society to conform to their particular psychpathologies.

Is this an example of you interacting pleasantly?

about his approval. must be rough, LOL.

Try calling her hysterical next. Sheesh.
Women get reduced to their looks far too often. It affects their pay, the respect they get in professional environments ... everything.
This silly "tell a girl she's beautiful" thing would only reinforce for young girls the idea that their appearance is their most important trait.

It's the main compliment and treated like it's the only thing that matters.

...but usually what comes to mind is what a generous, compassionate, loving, and amazing person she is.

I care to hear am beautiful and that is my husband of 35 yrs and even then I don't have to hear it everyday of the week. Beauty inside is extremely important to me and its nice to be pretty on the outside but I bet if a woman is beautiful outside but ugly inside you'd have a tendency to think she is ugly even though she is pretty outside. I have a sister-in-law who is like that. Beautiful red headed, thin but is very ugly on the inside.

on trying to make women look younger, beautiful, etc., and spend it on productive programs such as education, job training, child care and any number of other SERIOUS women's issues this world would be a completely different place.

I have trouble knowing what I can and can't say sometimes. I understand the OP's points, but it's a bit of a minefield these days.

Yesterday I was about to pay a compliment to a woman I know because she looked pretty, and then I thought "Nah, why bother - I'll probably just get yelled at somehow".

My gf appreciates a well placed compliment now and then.

a bit of a creep, and move away down the bench.

-Laelth

Are different situations.

compliment is welcome!

Men, if you don't know the woman and are out in a public place, just be aware that compliments are, 99% of the time, attempts to hit on women and are generally not welcome because they are insincere and self-serving, a way to force a conversation. It's pretty easy to see that, no?

As a female, I never compliment strange men in passing. It is none of my business what they look like, how they dress, etc., and I respect the autonomy of other people and don't invade their space unless necessary. However, at work for example, if a fellow I know is wearing an especially nice shirt or tie, I feel free to compliment him on his appearance that day. I also compliment women in the same manner.

I have encountered a couple of men who actually knew how to compliment strangers -- they made the compliment and KEPT ON WALKING, which let the woman know that it wasn't an attempt to hit on her. Few women mind those kinds of compliments either.

I would only add that the compliments to a strange women in a public place that we pretty much know are attempts to hit on us? They're interruptions. They're assumptions that we should stop what we're doing to either attend to you or let you down easy. We don't owe you that kind of time and effort.

to compliment a stranger. .

great explanation.

I never have that problem. It's simply a matter of treating everyone with equal respect, rather than maintaining a 'separate but equal' respect in which we feel compelled to identify a female by attractiveness, but not males... unless of course, you have a habit of telling other guys how beautiful they look, or how their slacks compliment their figure as well.

With acquaintances, coworkers, etc., hopefully you can be more relaxed. But strangers? No.

rather than someone whose face you're judging for beauty. SOOOOO annoying.

(might as well tell me to smile as i walk down the street. ugh)

The one advantage to getting older is that whether it's respect, or just my aging, fewer people feel the need to give me their opinion of my face.

complimented and wonder why they end up with assholes, LOL.

(Spoiler: "nice guys" are really assholes and women don't owe them anything)

What's your phone number

(Said nobody ever on DU)

No woman raised that point. Anti-feminists made this up to show how little respect they have for women's rights. Meanwhile they try to shut us up if we dare talk about violence against women. The good news is guys like that are a dying breed. Most men don't despise and trivialize women's rights. Yet there are a few that feel compelled to put down women at every chance they can.

They complain that women sow division by daring to mention violence and the fact that 1 in 3 women in this country are subject to abuse while they invent bullshit for the express purposes of sowing discord.

As far as misogynists are concerned, we're supposed to take the beatings and keep our mouth shut, while they mock women at every opportunity.

I'll just repost my response to the last time you trotted this lie out.

Using it as an example of benevolent sexism is not complaining about. All of those threads were posted by men mocking women. Besides, that person is no longer a member of this website. But why not kick a dead horse for kicks.

And what, are we supposed to just forget her 10 years of belligerent, ridiculous finger-wagging just because she finally got the hint that her crusade was neither wanted nor needed around here?

because I never saw what you describe. What I did see were dozens of doors threads created by other people, complaining that someone somewhere in time mentioned doors.

What you forget or not is your concern, but to use it as a club to beat feminists currently on this site is without a factual basis.

Providing an example from an article in Science Daily in response to a direct question is not complaining about opening doors. I did see that post, not a thread. That thread was about . . . hold it . . . boobs. (I found particularly amusing the eagerness of some in that thread to prove they weren't sexist by saying they didn't like large breasts. As though that idiotic study had any value). That does not in any way support your claim or the endless threads going on about someone complaining about opening doors. In fact, I specifically recall her saying she didn't care at all. That in no way constitutes a complaint. The charge you wage against Sea could just as easily be applied to Science Daily, since the information originated on that publication.

I would love little more than to spend the rest of my evening pointing out exactly every instance over the past 10 years where fringe feminists here complained about benevolent sexism, but I imagine you will still stick to your assertions that poor put-upon seabeyond was unfairly attacked (despite reams of evidence to the contrary), but alas, it's Friday evening and there are cigars to be smoked, Scotch to be imbibed, cards to be played and a wife who wants to buy new shoes so, for now at least, I take my leave. Enjoy your evening.

Not about how aggrieved you feel by certain ex-members of the site. She clearly did not complain about men opening doors. She responded to a question about benevolent sexism with text from a publication. I think your problem here may be an inability to separate the subject matter from your feelings about that individual.

And why do you feel that anyone who does not agree with you 100% on issues (like this one) are tone deaf to the issues women face?

They face a lot of issues all over the world, being complimented is not really one of them.

But here you are....but not other places

Pelosi won't say if San Diego mayor should resign
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023295557

Austin 13-year-old raped as men recorded, cheered
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023294751

102 girls admitted to hospital in Tamil Nadu after eating mid-day meals
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023286789

Tour de France director: Nothing to say to women riders
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023282692

'Hire White Beauty People,' Hey?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023288753

Which leads me to believe maybe you just like these off topics where you can tell people they are not outraged enough over the little things you want them to be. Foreign policy and how it affects women overseas? Not much I have seen from you - men complimenting women? Yeah, you are here.

They provide no evidence of a woman complaining about doors. They are instead more of your relentless self promotion. I never told you to be outraged about anything. You can't provide proof of that because I never said such a thing. Nor do I expect you to EVER care about anything I do. I have said MULTIPLE times than we agree on nothing. So why would I tell you what to be outraged about when I know you oppose everything that matters most to me in life? You don't bother to read anything I write, so how would you possibly know what concerns me? You have not once done anything but free associate to me based on whatever scripts and straw men enter into your grey cells. As the post above shows, your primary concern continues to be promoting your own threads. They provide no evidence of any of the points you allege, about doors or my demanding outrage. Moreover, you haven't even bothered to find out what my opinion on this OP are. But don't let that stop you from inventing your own fantasy about what you think it might be. Why should facts matter anymore now that they ever have before? Continue beating up on the straw woman you invent in your mind.

of your telling me that I haven't participated in threads you think I am obligated to by virtue of my gender, yet complaining that you think I am telling you to be outraged about something is obviously lost on you.

I told the OP I actually disagree with her, but don't let facts get in the way of straw woman weekly. They never have before.

But I get the message. The only kind of sexism that is acceptable to complain about is in far off lands. We shouldn't expect American men to abide by laws: whether EEOC laws in the workplace or laws against battery or rape. That only applies to dem fereners. Rape only counts when dem Mooslims do it. If a woman is raped, beaten or killed by an Anglo-American, it just isn't as bad. So what if the homicide rate, including against women, is higher in he US?

I tend to look at folks based on their words around here. And if you don't remember the whole door thing then look it up - was confusing then and still is....

Why then do you expect me to participate in threads about foreign policy and women? Why then did you accuse me of sowing division by posting about crimes against women and domestic violence?

The fact my avatar is female and my gender specified in my profile of course has no impact on you. You aren't even trying to be honest now. That's just sad.

The door thing exists in your mind. I have myself told you SEVERAL times that no woman complained about doors. Some use it as a canard to mock feminists on this site. That determination to mock rather than understand shows exactly what their views on women and equal rights are. When such a person also values guns above homicide victims, I know we don't share the same values.

She specifically says whatever floats your boat is fine. The OP is not complaining about doors. That's part of the game of telephone that emerged from the fictitious attack pretending someone did complain when no one in fact did. That does not support your assertion that people here you talk to regularly accuse people who don't care about doors of being sexist.

1. Do you think holding the door open for a woman is sexist?
2. Giving a woman a compliment about any aspect of her appearance (hair, shoes, clothes, etc)?

If not, well...I have news for you, you are a sexist according to some around here. And it is those whom I am mostly speaking to.

if you have evidence that anyone says not thinking holding doors open is sexist means I'm sexist, provide proof. Who are they? Provide those links. Go on. I'm waiting.

1. Do you think holding the door open for a woman is sexist?
2. Giving a woman a compliment about any aspect of her appearance (hair, shoes, clothes, etc)?

it is a minefield, i'm female and i'm sure often men don't mean anything negative when they say "you're beautiful" or "pretty" or any other compliment that is a comment on my face (ugh), but unless a male knows me REAL well, it's can be instrusive and a little frustating in some instances.

so saying someone looks nice really counts for everything, could be the way they put themselves together, etc, it's not a comment on their person.

If there is a risk that a compliment would get you yelled at, this person isn't a friend and her self esteem isn't your problem, so you don't need to kill any brain cells trying to devise a strategy in that regard.

If it would sound weird saying it to another guy, think twice (imho).

Basically, there's no safe way to compliment a woman (whom you don't know well) about anything, but arguably there are few reasons to do so either. Courtship being the only obvious exception.

That general rule applies to everyone who aren't family or close friends.

I mean, if it's your partner or someone you know. Said to strangers not so much.

But the issue here is having some kind of special day to tell a woman they're beautiful - that's just annoying, patronizing, and superficial.

And I definitely agree with the writer that compliments on less superficial traits - intelligence, strength, talent, etc - would be much more gratifying, sincere, and enduring. Traits that will grow instead of fade with time - way more valuable. And I'd rather be with someone who values enduring traits in me than a superficial one that will inevitably fade.

or lovers, bosses and co workers or odd men on the street. You use different standards because you know you can be more informal- and less respectful with some people based on your close relationship. With strangers, you are pushing your luck. With bosses, and peers at work you'd better not press your luck. Why would you then assume you get a pass to say whatever the heck you feel like to a woman? It's pretty much the same thing. It's not as hard as you are making it out to be!

The entry to the article would read exactly the same. "Men giving women permission to have self-esteem yadda-yadda-yadda"

"That's right ladies, men want you to be smart, but no too smart."

And then the author would lament that there are no "National Tell a Girl She's a Good Person Day" and no "National Tell a Girl She's Making a Difference in This World Day".




I personally think, a "National Tell a Girl She’s Beautiful Day" is a good idea (even though this is the first time I've heard of it).
Why?
You can finally say what you are thinking without coming across as creepy or having her think you were hitting on her, because you have the perfect excuse.
"You look great today. You changed anything?"

That's the problem I was talking about:
As a man I am not allowed to speak my mind and compliment a woman on her looks, because she will immediately assume that the only reason for me to say this could be that I want to fuck her.

Surprise! Not all men think like that.

What if I want to tell a woman the her new hair-color really does give her a better look?
What if I want to tell a woman that she looks prettier when wearing her hair open?
What if I want to tell a woman that that coat looks great on her?

It doesn't matter, what kind of guy I am, whether I'm interested in her as a friend or sexually: As a man, I'm not allowed to say this kind of stuff, because she will always assume the worst.

What if you could compliment a woman on her appearance?
You have to know her. You have to know that she doesn't mind. You have to know that you don't come across as creepy or inappropriate.
If, every time you compliment a woman, you get charged with sexual harassment, then you have a problem with the way you compliment women.
It's not their fault.

And even then, so what if you don't get to give a woman your opinion of her appearance?
Think of all the privilege that men have in the workplace, from wages and promotions to just being listened to in meetings. Now think of the trillion dollar effort put in to making women feel insecure about their looks.
Is that really a huge burden on *you* to not creep her out as opposed to the way creepy comments are a burden on *her*?

It's about making the men feel good because they get to tell women what they think.

the other half is that then the woman owes him positive feedback in return for his opinion.

This thread is done for me. This discussion is obviously going nowhere.

What if I want to tell a woman the her new hair-color really does give her a better look? If you know her, "You did something new? it looks great!"

What if I want to tell a woman that she looks prettier when wearing her hair open? Keep it to yourself, too personal- unless you are close friends- because you are judging her face/ hair/ body as if life were a beauty pageant.

What if I want to tell a woman that that coat looks great on her? "That's a great coat- it suits you" Acceptable with most women you'd chat with. Because you are commenting on a garment- not her body/ face / hair.

Hope that helps!

Generally, yes, it is creepy for women-especially if done by a stranger.

So does that mean it's also creepy, just to lesser extent, if done by someone they know? Perhaps I'm confused by what the term 'hit on' means, but flirting and 'hitting on' isn't an unusual practice for both men and women. My friend, who is a female, was recently complaining about how guys never hit on her when she goes out. Now, unwanted come ons are problematic, because a guy may not know the female isn't interested until he attempts to get to know her. Obviously if he persists after he is turned down, that is creepy, but I fail to see how it's creepy for someone to express any interest in someone (assuming it's believed both parties relationship statuses are compatible)

As for strangers talking. So if I was to start up a conversation I don't know because she caught my interest, that's considered creepy? Or by hit on, does that refer to someone just walking up and saying "hey, baby, you're one foxxy lady" (or something as cringe worthy and lame?)

That really depends. If a woman is sending clear signals (and these are often nonverbal signals, FWIW) to a man that she is interested in and attracted to him, then yes, it is perfectly reasonable for the man to engage in flirting. So much of it is context-specific, and a lot hinges on whether BOTH parties are consenting to the flirting.

Women also initiate flirting and conversations with men, FWIW, especially nowadays. So it's not like there's soooooo much pressure on men to do the flirting.

Starting a friendly conversation with a stranger is one thing. Giving an unsolicited compliment on physical appearance-or the lame PUA tactics that you alluded to ("Hey, baby, you're one foxxy lady&quot to a woman you really don't know is different altogether. Again, context is key.

We don't care that someone has declared open season - you will still be seen as creepy. But go ahead, it seems you've been thwarted and frustrated in your goal for so long - but at long last, you are free.

A campaign that focused on getting people to stop fixating on a woman's looks and more on her intelligence would probably be well received.

"You can finally say what you're thinking ..."

Actually, it's not about you and your relief at verbally ejaculating your opinions.

Consider the possibility that, while doing this may make you feel better, walking up to a woman and imposing on her like this actually makes her feel worse (more self-conscious, more creeped out etc.) more so than it made you feel better.
Remember, in high school, how the girls giggling over in the corner make you feel weird ... like maybe your fly was down or your pants were on funny or your hair was sticking up?
Yeah, that's how women often feel when men do this to them.

Perfect.

It was hard coming up with that one.

We don't require being judged by anyone any more than men do. There is no National Tell a Man anything day thought of.

to show they are approved of.

How was the decision reached to not battle for THAT hill, as well?

just joking, i think ALL women are beautiful.

I am an Officially Registered Ugly Girl and I would not mind at all if someone told me I was beautiful.

It is natural for a person to see and admire physical beauty. Its one of the reasons you have eyes, to see. Its okay. But no one should be judged for their looks. Beauty does not determine anything personally about the woman. It does not define what kind of individual they are. Beauty is simply what it is. Something nice to look at. Like a beautiful Rose, or gorgeous sunrise. With all of these time will change the picture. The op assumes that people who see her beauty because of her beauty that people are judging her because of it, and it gives people the wrong impression of her true talents and her other attributes. Only one problem, People can't see those. They see what's in front of them. And even though she considers herself one of the beautiful people, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

People, it's not about telling an individual woman, whom I would hope you know and respect, that she is beautiful. It's that this is some national thing somebody is trying to get going, once again hinting at the fact that really all a woman has to offer is her physical appearance. And I'm sorry if seeing a woman speaking out against that is upsetting to you and you think she's too angry or whatever, because I know that may make some people uncomfortable, but yikes.

Thx