Russia and China will not go along with this IMHO especially the blatant violation of diplomatic immunity. It will put our diplomats in danger. Did they not learn from Libya?

So, lets start with the Spanish ABC outlet link and go for there-

Anybody got that?

Piece of cake. Use abc news kerry threatens venezuela for the search. ABC News is a Spanish newspaper.

The story just became one degree more credible!

Way to be on a Friday mad props dude!

The OP is from RT

ragging on the USA and Kerry. Poor things.. they needed that.

with Latin America,threats won't help

It is "this is legal and cannot be challenged in court" so SHUT UP, THAT'S WHY!

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/spygate-snooping-standing/

This almost reads like satire

USA!! USA!! USA!!

This is a bogus story as was already recounted in Catherina's original post.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
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believe and they won't grow up!

There is a meticulous historical record of some of the worst atrocities ever committed for the purpose of exploiting other peoples in the world. The United States is an empire, without doubt.

Who do you think you're kidding with that sort of nonsense?

But I do agree with waiting for verification before commenting.

Where you stand depends on where you sit.

I'm not "kidding" anyone. You are free to have your own opinion on the topic without getting shirty with me.

I have full confidence that you will survive having your US centered world view challenged.

Clearly, I am not convinced by your compelling discourse, so why do you bother, if you don't care?

Methinks thou doth protest too much...

You should support your position, instead of flinging barbs anytime someone disagrees with you.

Forgive me if I treat it with all the weight it deserves, which is to say, none. People are way to easy to scarf up all the slop that comes out of RT, while refusing to acknowledge that it is Putin's PERSONAL propaganda arm.

When I disagree with people, I don't "fling barbs." I just state my case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)

That's what I challenged. I can understand why you won't defend it. It is quite preposterous.

Your link does not lead to that from which you copied, by the way.

gets the blame even when someone else started the shit. We haven't won a war lately, some "empire"- but whatever.

I don't think USA is perfect, but I don't regard them as the monsters that some of the more rabid among us do. Sometimes, I think I've stumbled into the Hate America First Club-it's rather tiresome.

See, I've lived in places that can truly be called "regimes" and there IS a difference. When someone on your street gets a knock at the door, is dragged off, never to be seen again, and this is not uncommon, then we can talk about how evil USA is. It is astounding how different it is to live under rule of law. I happen to like it, and I know enough to appreciate it.

RE LINK--scroll down to media and hit the first link there....DU won't pick up the last portion of it for some reason.

"Hate America First Club"? Why would you employ wing-nut lingo on a progressive message board?

The United States isn't just 'not perfect'. It has committed some of the worst atrocities in history, continuing unabated up to the current time. We, as dutiful citizens, have an obligation to call into question our government's conduct. The actions of other governments are completely irrelevant.

Were any of those brutal dictatorships you referred to, some of the many that have been installed/supported by the US government?

I have nothing in common with that individual. The fact that you had to dive that low (to say nothing of drag out some incredibly ancient history to try and fail to make a connection) reflects poorly on you.

I have seen more shit-flinging at USA than I ever see at Putin in Russia. Russia is lauded, Putin's propaganda arm, RT, is cited constantly, and no one even stops to note the irony.

Putin, who jails the opposition politician who is his only threat, who jails a bunch of women musicians, who is virulently anti-gay. But here, because Putin laughs his ass off and pretends his airport isn't in his own country, he is a hero.

If Obama threw Romney in jail, tossed Hank Williams Junior or Ted Nugent in the clink, and waged war on gays to the point of declaring homosexuality ILLEGAL, would you be a tad....perturbed? Irritated? Annoyed? Even if you didn't LIKE RMoney or Hank Williams or Ted Nugent....wouldn't you be a wee bit concerned that their civil rights were being abrogated ..... just a titch? And how about that "outlawing gays" thing? Sound a little "Tehran-ish" to ya? But don't let that worry your lovely head, now....

That's what Pootie Poot did--but he's a Big Man on DU, because he's hosting Eddie!

It's horseshit.

It seems your sole criterion for judging US government conduct, is how it treats its own citizens, never how it treats people in other countries. The conspiracy predicated invasion of Iraq, for instance, was a crime of epic proportions, resulting in the utter destruction of Iraq's civil society, the obliteration of its infrastructure and the deaths of about a million people. Few regimes in history can match it. I absolutely will not give the US a pass on this. What "Pootie Poot" has done, is absolutely irrelevant. Reform to the Russian system is an issue strictly for the Russian people to worry about.

Ive read quite a few of the Snowden threads, and I cannot recall any serious posters on DU lauding Putin over the issue. Such mis-characterizations can damage one's credibility, if one isn't careful.

Last edited Tue Jul 23, 2013, 01:24 AM - Edit history (1)

What other DUers are saying about Putin (I still saw no lauding) doesn't concern me in the least. I initially challenged your view that the US was an empire only in the fevered imaginations of 'blame America firsters' (in the words of Jeane Kirkpatrick, Reagan's wing-nut UN ambassador). I stand by my view, that US foreign policy, is the biggest impediment to peace and security in the world, barring nothing, if for no other reason, just the general level of violence, destruction and chaos that it causes in the world, for the purpose of controlling strategic resources (like oil in the ME) and profitable markets (like agriculture in Latin America).

Your argument, in a nutshell, is that critics of US foreign policy are anti-American.

See ya.

We were talking about Pooty/RT cheerleaders.

I think you are naive. Do you know what PLA UNIT 61398 is?

You seriously think they're gonna stop that shit?

That cheap shot "critic" assertion is not my argument, but I imagine you want to try to make it simplistic so it's easier to dis.

I think that foreign relations are complex, and playing the Happy Happy Glad Gad Love Love "All We Have to Do is Go Home and They'll Leave Us Alone" card with nations we are in competition with is an invitation to disaster.

Do you think the Chinese, with their swell (cough) wage structure, complete and utter disregard for any sort of environmental 'concern,' and great record on human rights, will do a better job of "controlling the world's strategic resources?" I know you don't want to acknowledge this, but someone is gonna do that, and it won't always be the country where the resource is located. That's just how it is.

But whatever. See ya.

Last edited Mon Jul 22, 2013, 11:59 AM - Edit history (1)

that leveling Indochina, toppling governments throughout Latin America in favor of dictatorships, promoting proxy wars in Central Asia, and starving women and children to death with punitive 'sanctions', was the logical and moral coarse for advancing "American interests"?

you are trying a little too hard.

ABC News is a Spanish newspaper. The original is most likely in Spanish.

I would have to see this from another source before I would believe.

I read BBC alot.

Bless your heart. I wonder if these folks feel the same about the government sponsored Russia Today?







Russia! Russia! Russia!

PUT UP YER DUKES!!1!!111(eleven)

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Its silly to pretend that Russia and the US are fundamentally different, when it comes to the treatment of dissidents.
And here, it seems, the less violent the dissent the more violent the response.

according to Comrade Snowden, this sort of thing doesn't happen in that paragon of human rights protections, Russia. So, he's either as dumb as a box of rocks, or he's a pathological liar, and I don't see the two as mutually exclusive, in this case.

So your point, if you even had one, is as dumb as Snowie.

Actually, your point WAS more jingoistic crap. You were trying to pretend that Russia is this horrible violator of civil liberties when we do more or less the same thing.

Of course that was Occupy people that was being done to, so I'm sure you cheered that on too.

the first time. If you & Snowie think that Russia is better than the US on "human rights", then perhaps this will help. Perhaps it's his admitted "naievete", but he didn't refer to civil liberties, but "human rights" with regard to Russia. Maybe this will help?

Snowden's statements about Russia's sterling Human Rights image come within days of the imprisonment of high-profile political opposition leader Alexei Navalny, on what some call trumped-up embezzlement charges.

Snowden himself acknowledged his potential for naivety to Bart Gellman of the Washington Post: “Perhaps I am naïve, but I believe that at this point in history, the greatest danger to our freedom and way of life comes from the reasonable fear of omniscient State powers kept in check by nothing more than policy documents.”

To make matters worse, the person seemingly speaking for Snowden now — Russian attorney Anatoly Kucherena — also happens to be the head of public relations for the FSB.

Freelance reporter and intelligence expert Joshua Foust writes: "The involvement of known FSB operatives at his asylum acceptance ... suggests this was a textbook intelligence operation, and not a brave plea for asylum from political persecution."

http://www.businessinsider.com/snowdens-asylum-request-insanely-naive-2013-7

It's not just the silencing of opposition politicians and musicians who buck the status quo, it's the whole anti-gay thing that Putin is going on about--it's just sick.

government to be carried on the government sponsored RT. People who post links to RT don't have a clue, and never acknowledge RT's complicity in the human rights abuses that Comrade Snowden insists don't exist. I'd love to see someone post a piece from RT that was highly critical of Putin's government, and see how long it takes him to yank 'em off the air.

squirrel in his pocket, Medvedev, it's off/out and heads are rolling.

here don't acknowledge that, but it seems that increasingly, anyone who has a beef with the US, is taken at his word, even Bin Laden's son-in-law. I mean, it's not like any of them have an agenda, right?

they are really interested..

for the original article which is in Spanish.

Of State since Condi Rice?

and, as Sec of State Kerry has to deal with the fallout all over the world and the corporate media who have been playing this entire story as if none of it was known in 2001-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9.

I've seen the disrespect our State department shows the heads of state of Latin American nations and would not put this heavy handedness past them.

was going on in far more egregious forms since 2001.

After all, they even sponsored a coup trying topple Chavez.

We hoped this administration would treat other nations with more respect and behave in a more civilized manner. All I see are more threats, the same level of arrogance, and intense bullying all in the same of corporate interests.

showing the real John Kerry. He is no different than his buddy John McCain who he once considered as his running mate. He is use to pushing his weight around. He wanted that job real bad, instead of being a Senator. He lost out on being the President lke McCain.

The fact is that Kerry never had a reputation for actions like those described here and it already was denied.

I have met John Kerry - as have many other people in the JK group. He is - and always has been a very diplomatic man.

It is amazing that you will believe ANY source - no matter whether you know it is credible or not.

countries.
NATO served its purpose: Time to go away

"Kerry vows to put the screws to Venezuela over Snowden"

Yeah, sounds like Kerry.

If Snowden wants to get out of Russia, he is going to have to avoid the airspace of our allies. I have no problem here.

They're screwn now.

pitching such a fit over Snowden. This desperation to lay their hands on him, diplomacy be damned, has done nothing but pique the curiosity of other countries. They probably would have already had him if they hadn't acted like the tyrants that they really are. The rest of the world is enjoying every minute of this. They don't get to see the U.S. government squirm very often.

That's actually Venezuelan unrefined oil which is bought by the US for $5 a barrell and sold back for $100 refined.

That would be interesting if true

Meanwhile, Spanish newspaper ABC said the United States has warned Venezuelan officials of dire consequences -- including being barred from entering any NATO airspace -- if it flies Snowden to the South American country.

The newspaper said U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry warned Venezuelan Foreign Minister Elias Jaua Washington would end all sales of gasoline and other refined-oil products to Venezuela if Snowden is given refuge in that country.

>

Venezuela, despite being the world's No. 5 oil-exporting country, with the world's largest heavy, crude oil reserve, does not have the capability to refine oil into gasoline and other fuels.

It sells crude at about $5 a barrel to U.S. companies that refine it and sell it back gasoline at the going rate of more than $100 a barrel.

Venezuela imports about 500,000 barrels of gasoline from the United States a month, along with 350,000 barrels of MTBE octane-boosting gasoline additives and other petroleum products, the Spanish newspaper said.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/07/19/Journalist-warns-of-explosive-news-from-cache-Snowden-leaked/UPI-82681374213600/#ixzz2ZVwe09DD

I've just worked that out - multiply 500,000 x $95 a month. Loss of that income would seriously piss somebody off.

I question the validity of that claim because Venezuela has their own refining capacity, currently refining 1.2 million barrels. What would be the point?

but there is no doubt they do have oil refined for them in the US.

One thing that seems to be true, though, is that if the U.S. stops exporting refined product to Venezuela, that puts a massive burden on Venezuela to keep subsidizing 18 cents a gallon gas prices, which seems impossible being over $160 billion in debt (and rising).

with regard to providing help to the general population of Venezuela. Its called socialism.

by halving your oil production over 10 years while your populous grows, letting your refineries crumble and relying on foreigners, who you badmouth, to refine your products for you - which WE subsidize. Venezuela relies on oil revenues to fund 95% of everything, so one little blip will send the country into chaos, especially when 18 cents jumps to 1 or 2 dollars. Maduro would be gone within months.

The U.S. seems to be holding all the cards. I don't think we're that cold blooded, though.

Irrational that Snowden Lovers would think that a country like Venezuela could potshot us in the balls and then expect us to take it.. because we deserved it? I'm sure if one of them were deliberately hit in the balls, they curl over and take it, in all their 'bravery'. Whatever. No one told Venezuela to get involved, so they have no one to blame but themselves.

known right here at DU for never having met a neoliberal they didn't bend over backwards to defend
US Threatens To Eliminate Trade With Venezuela If It Provides Snowden With Asylum

dipsydoodle. Still keeping them straight I'm happy to see. Thank you

Sorry - I'd missed your post yesterday.

What fascinates me is the reluctance to believe what RT publishes. Check this out too : http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023295027

That sounds about right.

You know, just to keep us all honest.

Hint: I dislike people with agendas.
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Really John, you don't get to tell everyone in NATO how they manage their airspace.

The foam-at-the-mouth Obama administration approach to whistleblowers is quite appalling.

...since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

NATO =/= The US Government,
but NATO and the US Government DO work for the same people.

With democrats like you, who needs facists?

WTF is wrong with these people? Kerry & Obama need to remember their roots,
and wake the fuck up to what is really important in life.

This is utter bullshit.

Be careful John, don't overreach, we need their oil.

I am ashamed of my government - this is a real brown bag moment!!

him. For a person that doesn't know many secrets, the U.S. is sure going out of their way to catch this guy. He must be very important.

So now we're quoting conservative "news" sources on DU? What's next WorldNetDaily?

sources around here.

it's a long flight and no customers to fill a plane. they could cross Nicaragua

wow.

They have a huge debt to China, and no way of relieving it through trade, UNLESS they can trade the one thing China wants, which is oil. However, their oil sucks--it is heavy, it is sour, it is difficult to refine, which means that it is cheap compared to say, Saudi Arabian Light Sweet crude.

If the Chinese want to dump a couple billion into the country and fix up their fucked up refineries, and their oil fields which aren't pumping as much due to repair issues, and then take what they are owed out in trade, well, why not?

They'd better not get the idea, though, like they do with some others, that after China prettifies everything for them, that they can swipe it back and "nationalize" it again. I don't think China would be grooving on that one bit....

Here's the upside for the USA and Canada--it frees up more refinery space for domestic north american product in US refineries that are geared to handle sour and heavy oils. End result? Let China deal with them; world's available oil supplies grow; pressure off prices. The downside is that China has another beachhead in our hemisphere, but it's a worldwide economy anyway, so what the hell, really...let them have some fun down there and see how they like it.

Of course, there would be pressure on oil prices for a time, as China would have to get in there and fix that mess. Not sure if they're terribly interested--I think they'd rather we do the refining work and they simply take shipments of the finished product.

Time will tell, though.

Someone can say "There will be consequences" -- and make no mistake, there WILL be -- but hyperbolic reportage can spin that as "outrage" or "threatening" when all it is, is a recitation of a 'cause and effect' process.

I see that a lot here on this board (when people throw the "You must be --fill in an emotion--" when it's actually the emotion THEY are feeling) as well as in the pages of international newspapers and magazines; written language, be it English, Spanish, Russian, Arabic--doesn't always translate to the same "meaning" as is intended to be conveyed.

When the Iranians, for example, say "Morg bar Amrika" (Death to America), they aren't actually suggesting that every American be killed in their bed as they sleep; it's more like "Amrika SUCKS, man!" on steroids.

fucking buffoons.

Inflating his "crime" to Gold Finger or Doctor Evil.

I guess the anti-freedom-of-information Snowden bashers will like that.

I don't trust contractors like Snowden. I think we would both agree that ones like Snowden can't be trusted, and that you and Government are there to protect us from contractors who want to invade what you the Government are protecting us from.

Blah blah.

It's petty and bullying, at the same time.

And Kerry should know better than this. He is getting "Colin Powell'd"... fronting for what will turn out to be a very wrong side of history.

.

the elites have become so clueless -- about diplomacy, and about the public -- that they have become completely incompetent. These are incompetent, malevolent, power-hungry, nitwits leading us.

And then what gets me is, they go on and on about how their ridiculous over-compensation is so justified by their "expertise". What a joke!

It's pretty bad...but, then I thought Samantha Powers Address to the UN was so Incredibly OTT...that I've barely recovered from it.

Whatever. It sounds like what he could have said. And, I trust the DU'ers Translations.

I'll leave it there.

Sometimes the arrogance and hypocrisy just floors me.

Too much Venezuela hate around here to take anything at face value IMHO

Now she won't address why her opinion on the source has so radically changed.
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have known was fake? And what's really sad is that that was by NO MEANS her most poorly sourced article? And it still got 13 recs even after she posted an apology and noted that it was a hoax??

Unless you are 100% in lock-step with the 'right' viewpoint, other points of view don't count.

They are constructing one hell of an echo chamber.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]