in the first place, especially during an ongoing military operation, and then assert CO status. Doesn't make sense to me. What were they thinking they would be asked to do?

I have nothing against COs. My brother was a CO. I come from a generation of COs. That was when people were being drafted against their will. I advised my own son, when he had to register with SS at age 18, in 2003, when the Iraq war was just beginning (the bombing began the day after his birthday), to register with a statement of intent to receive CO status ... just in case a draft should be instituted. (He of course did not heed my advice.)

But to enlist in a volunteer army and then think it's all rainbows and unicorns? When you enlist in war time, you should realize what you are getting into.

Particularly young people and finding out what war really is certainly can and does change people's thoughts on the subject. There's a good reason why wars have been traditionally fought by the very young throughout recorded history.

when making the decision to join. And in boot camp they also make it pretty clear why you're there.

And boot camp is after you enlist. The reality of what you have to do really sinks in at that time, and may be when you really start thinking of the moral consequences.

oath on graduation day.

Believe me, recruits have plenty of time to consider what they've done. A large percentage of their training is geared towards how that training will be applied ... IN COMBAT. Instructors will use combat-related examples to keep the training relevant. Anyone who goes through boot camp in any of the services and doesn't come away with the appreciation that the ultimate job is to put ordnance on target is brain dead--it's the elephant in the room, day in, day out.

The time for this kid to have a crisis of conscience wasn't when he got his deployment orders. It was much sooner, when he was learning how to fire that weapon and how to wear that CBR gear.

If I had to guess, I'll bet this kid's recruiter said "Don't sweat it--they're drawing down, you won't get sent over there, they'll probably send you to Fort Belvoir or Fort Hood...you'll be safe! Just sign here!"

Of course, the kid signed a paper that said "Don't believe any verbal promises" too, so that gets the recruiter off the hook.

at different times. Sooner (i.e. before enlisting in the first place) would be ideal. Earlier in the process after enlistment would be better. But what one is capable of doing, or believes is moral, could easily change - for example - when one is actually watching a child run into the scene the drone you set off is about to obliterate for the first time.

That's an extreme case for why one's perspective might change - but I am grateful for whenever it happens and believe that the world would be a lot better off if we celebrated people who followed their consciences - however belatedly the allow that perspective to influence them.

what's involved. It's not like anyone is being drafted, my brother was a CO back in the 60s-70s when there was a draft.

it all appear very easy to join and you choose a speciality that will ensure you get assigned to some nice duty station far away from the killing, bleeding, and screaming part ...

Good!
People are wising up.
The lies are harder to maintain, the truth is leaking out, and people are seeing the total disregard that the have yachts are showing for the have nots.
I sincerely and deeply hope the pendulum is turning.

Fuck this guy...

Hey genius, the war has been on for 12 years and the rest of us who signed on the line managed to leave our families multiple times because we agreed to. It's what men (and some women) do.

I think he can manage once at the tail end of things...

I've seen the video of his wife and it basically came down to "He went to basic and got scared and this is what we came up with to get out of it"

I went through basic, EAUC, DLI, Goodfellow, and SERE raring to go to Afghanistan, and then when I got there, I saw what the war had done to my friends and the people of Afghanistan. I saw a kid about this guy's age nearly blown in half by an RPG. I never knew about the true horrors of that war until then, and I had a crisis of conscience so hard and had nightmares so frightening I nearly blew my head off with my grandfather's shotgun.

So, on mine and this man's behalf, go fuck yourself, you heartless, empathy-less character-assassinating twit. Go ahead and bring on the goddamn alert.

All of that came about, and was an outcome that you knew could happen, as a result of your choice and obligation that you assumed.

I joined the same time you did btw... and anyone who did so without knowing wtf was going on at the time deserves what they get.

I even have some sympathy for someone who did their tour, got fucked in the head and taps out.

This man-child is a fucking disgrace and needs to rot for a while as an example to others. Fulfill your obligations.


"Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect."

and being very much pressured into joining based on a very, very misplaced sense of patriotism means I deserved the nightmares and the three subsequent suicide attempts! Glad we cleared that up!

Take your "duty" and shove it. We're done here. I've never ignored anyone on DU in my long history here, but for a completely heartless victim-blaming jackass like you, I'm glad to make an exception.

Tell me more about how your family tradition marched you to the recruiters office with a gun to your head. Tell me more about how they denied you access to news and the internet that were plastered with the happenings in Iraq.

That was about the same time I joined and it was all surge this and EFP that. Did you miss that part?

You shouldn't have done it apparently, but you did. The fact that you made a bad choice doesn't give everyone else a free ride to say "Never mind, I know I've taken months of training and 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars of resources but I just don't feel like it anymore."

Know what psychologists call people with no empathy? Fucking psychopaths.

You made a bad decision it seems but you fulfilled the obligation that you undertook, which includes the consequenes good and bad.

I have zero for the turd referenced in the OP. He has nothing other that "I don't wanna... Is scary"

into the reality of what some people experience.

and indeed it does seem to take all kinds.
I still find callousness disturbing.

and I realize for many they don't feel like they have many other options. Recruiters can give slick presentations on how you will see the world and make a lot of promises.

At the same time it isn't conscription. They took an oath to protect the nation, no matter what. When you join the military you go where they tell you to go and shit when they tell you to shit. That's one of the huge downsides to enlisting.

I know a few ppl out of high school who joined. Most of them were successful, but some didn't make it through boot camp.

The sad thing is this guy will probably face a dishonorable discharge, loss of rank, and separation from the military. His choices after that will be limited without schooling.

And the difference is important. Whereas the former implies a protection of principle, the latter is merely a furthering of a regimes agenda.

The oath for commissioned officers does not have that bit in there--but this kid is enlisted.

Refusing to deploy is disobeying an order.

There is a procedure for this, though, and if he can demonstrate that he is, in fact, a CO, and not a malingerer, they'll either assign him to some skunky job until his enlistment is up, or more likely, since they are drawing down now, they'll just give him a "convenience of the government" discharge and get him off the rolls, and chalk up the tens of thousands they spent on training and equipping him as just an unfortunate flush of taxpayer money.

Not to blindly obey any order given to you by a superior.

Now where have I heard about someone saying they don't have to obey an unlawful order? Hmm...let me think about it. Something about a dentist chair, a crazy woman, and a birth certificate.

knowing full well that they maybe sent to a war, possibly a war that would be considered unnecessary or unjust. It's not like we haven't had a debate about that as a nation before Iraq. Look at the war in Vietnam. Many people disagreed with the war and felt it was not something we should be doing. If you don't think long and hard about that before enlisting, then yes you have made a mistake.

If they are not imposed, people will happily sign up for the military to get all the benefits, knowing that they can freely "opt out" if it looks like their lives may be placed in danger.

just stating that's probably what will happen. My point is a little more thought might have gone into joining the military and the whether he would possibility be sent to war, a war that he might disagree with.

He needs to do some time at Leavenworth as an example to others. Maybe 18 months, the time of the longest modern deployment, that I know of.

Don't want to fight? Don't join...

Make the promise? Do what you agreed to like a freakin' grown ass man.

Choose not to and there need to be serious life changing consequences.

"The man who can face vilification and disgrace, who can stand up against the popular current, even against his friends and his country when he know he is right, who can defy those in authority over him, who can take punishment and prison and remain steadfast—that is a man of courage. The fellow whom you taunt as a 'slacker' because he refuses to turn murderer—he needs courage. But do you need much courage just to obey orders, to do as you are told and to fall in line with thousands of others to the tune of general approval and the Star Spangled Banner?"

What he did is unfair to his comrades. Don't make a promise you don't intend to keep.

The DD is going to be tough enough (if that is in fact the policy, someone else said it has changed and that might be so).

Last edited Mon Jul 22, 2013, 05:46 AM - Edit history (1)

I was only talking about what I think should happen as an example to others.

It is a unique problem to me as well. The community I work in, everyone took years out of their lives and careers to get here so the idea is along the lines of claiming the moon is made of ice cream.

or, they can just put him on their "Low Quality Recruit" report, boot him out with a general at the "convenience of the government" and not have to address the issue at all. They cut their losses, stop paying the guy, and they are able to report one more attrition to Congress. Army is drawing down now, the more people they can get rid of, the better--at all paygrades. He'd better not take any leave, especially if he has to go in the hole for it--I think he'll be out sooner rather than later.

It may have changed recently.

while we were focusing on getting people out of the military since there was no longer any draft, it was rare to find someone who so suddenly became a pacifist.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but methinks other things are at play here.

Not to people voluntarily enlisting then deciding they want to back out. Didn't he swear an oath to serve?

The oath of enlistment requires that oath takers uphold and protect the Constitution. In many situations, that would actually mean specifically not going to war.

Oath takers answer to a higher power than the orders of superiors. Otherwise, we have an army of jackboots.

And obeying the orders of the officers appointed over them means obeying orders to deploy to Afghanistan.

Unless you're talking about Oath Takers, that fringe group, and not people who take the oath of enlistment...?

As I said above, I don't think his fate will be too dire. Army will cut their losses, dump the guy, give him a general discharge, and move on smartly.

That's not a fringe position. It's written directly into the rules and regulations.

But my point still stands. Ultimate authority lies in the laws of the uniform military code, not in those giving out orders.

the ultimate authority lies in the laws set forth, not in those giving the commands.

The "law set forth" to get his ass on the plane and deploy with his unit is entirely lawful and he promised to obey that order when he signed a dozen times, over and over again, on the dotted line. He took that oath three times--upon accession, when shipping off to boot camp, and upon graduating from boot camp. He can't play the "duuuh" card.

The burden of proof is now squarely upon him to play the "CO" card. Personally, I don't think they'll buy it--he's come too far in the process to play the naif.

They may just cut their losses and dump him off the rolls, as I said, rather than exact punishment. Because they are drawing down, there's going to be a ratcheting up of "rules enforcement," to drive people towards ART 15 interactions, which will reflect poorly on them and make it harder for them to reenlist; they will enforce the PT test and weight standards rigorously to weed out a few more, and if they can't get enough people to leave with an early-out offer, they'll even pay to get rid of people. Early retirement authority is a great way to lighten the load, for example.

avoid doing the job he signed up for.

Nothing wrong with objecting to war or refusing to kill--exactly the opposite. But voluntarily joining the military seems to be inconsistent with such beliefs.

They should discharge him and leave it at that.

like free tech training, a job in a crappy economy, and free college when I'm done... What, you expect me to go fight for Haliburton, like what the army has done for the past 12 years? That comes as a total surprise!"

...idiot. Don't want to fight for Haliburton? Don't join the army. Nobody held a gun to your head and said you had to enlist in an all-volunteer army when we are deploying people overseas. This guy was 10 on 9/11 and enlisted under Pres. Obama -- so it's pretty well known what the war was all about for the majority of this guy's life.

I never joined the army, despite veterans in every generation of my family history in this nation for more than 200 years. Why? Because I was a sophomore on 9/11 and was a junior during the Iraq invasion -- and knew it was bullshit then and still think so. I'm in debt up to my eyeballs, when I could have gotten college for free had I signed up. But I wasn't about to fight and die for some oil company, sorry. Not for that shitty low level of blood money.

to accept any orders, to fight any war no matter how I felt about the conflict

and i cant imagine myself enlisting unless i felt there was a national emergency that i wanted to be part of right now

i feel bad for him, and understand that there is economic conscription, but there is not full conscription

i do think concious objector status has to be reserved for true conscription

if you dont want to kill, dont enlist in the military. it's like accepting a job at dairy queen and then saying you cant serve ice cream

....and then being unwilling to provide the Plan B contraceptives, or other birth control medication.

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CC

We're getting out of the Stan. We don't keep service members hanging around "just in case." If we don't need 'em, we send 'em home.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/25/us-usa-army-idUSBRE95O1IR20130625


Army to eliminate 10 brigades at U.S. bases in drawdown: Odierno


(Reuters) - The U.S. Army said on Tuesday it would eliminate 10 brigade combat teams at bases across the United States and cancel some $400 million in construction projects as it cuts about 80,000 soldiers over the next four years.

General Ray Odierno, the Army chief of staff, said the move was part of the largest organizational change in the Army since World War Two as the service winds down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and responds to tighter U.S. budgets.

The Pentagon announced plans to cut the Army's overall force structure last year, but Odierno on Tuesday detailed where and how the service would reorganize as it draws down from a wartime high of 570,000 soldiers in 45 brigade combat teams to 490,000 in 33 brigade combat teams by the end of 2017. The reduction represents about a 14 percent drop in force size.

Odierno said the force would eventually drop to 32 brigades, but a decision had not yet been made on the final unit to be cut. He said as the 13 brigades are inactivated, some of the forces would be transferred to other brigades to make them "more lethal, more flexible and more agile.".....

There were 12,000 CO's in WWII and many more that applied for CO status.

... because the country that he fled from was liberated by the very type of man he is talking about.

It's nice to bitch until they are needed...

knew what they were getting into when they joined, and followed orders without question.

It seems to me he was a naive kid when he signed up, and has become a bit more mature and introspectiive since. Given the age he enlisted, that should not be a rare occurrence.

Conscripts don't have a role in the decision to join the ranks. Members of an all-volunteer force do--they have made the decision, not had it foisted on them.

Surely the GI Rights Hotline is broadly advertised by the military?
http://girightshotline.org/en/military-knowledge-base/topic/conscientious-objection-discharge

Since 1994, the GI Rights Hotline has been providing free, confidential, and accurate information on US military regulations and practices to servicemembers, veterans, potential recruits, and their families.

We are a consortium of nearly twenty non-governmental, non-profit organizations located in eleven states and in Germany. Some of our counselors are veterans, some are lawyers and some have decades of military counseling experience. We are in constant contact with each other to stay up-to-date on the latest military regulations and practices.

We provide resources and counseling options. Many of us are not lawyers and therefore cannot give legal advice, but, in cases in which an attorney might be useful, we may be able to help you find one.

When I joined the Army at age 17 in 1964 I had a very good idea of what they might be asking me to do. Information is much more available now than then.

I have a hard time with those who are more than willing to day after day take the pay, housing, health care and benefits only to suddenly turn CO after they get their deployment orders.

He signed, he did the training, from his first day off the bus they made it clear what he was in for and what the military does.

To only develop this conscience once it came time to deploy seems awful convenient.

He tool an oath and should face up to it.

The military has been in active combat mode since 2001, so no one who enlisted since then, can be expecting free medical/dental/training/housing allowances/etc with NO possibility of combat..

If you are dead-set against combat, the military is not a good job-fit...and they DO get quite "annoyed" when people "change their minds" after they enlist. The US military is NOT an employer that allows a "2-week-notice", and you're out.