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flpoljunkie

(26,184 posts)
Sun Jul 28, 2013, 06:50 AM Jul 2013

The White House should end the bulk collection of Americans’ phone records

The White House should end the bulk collection of Americans’ phone records

By Mark Udall and Ron Wyden, Published: July 26

Mark Udall and Ron Wyden, both Democrats, represent Colorado and Oregon, respectively, in the Senate.

President Obama recently welcomed a public debate about how to protect both national security and privacy rights in the context of the National Security Agency’s domestic surveillance activities. Congress should not squander this opportunity to have an open, transparent discussion about the limits of executive power and the surveillance of Americans. We believe that, when presented with all the facts, most Americans would agree with us that the White House should end the bulk collection of Americans’ phone records and instead obtain this information directly from phone companies, using regular court orders based on individual suspicion.

We have had concerns about domestic surveillance authorities for several years. Through our oversight work on the Senate intelligence committee, we have become convinced that the government needs to scale back overly intrusive surveillance activities to better protect Americans’ constitutional privacy rights and that this can be done while protecting U.S. national security. We have not been able to fully engage the public on these issues because the executive branch insisted on keeping its interpretation of the law secret. Although we would have preferred that this discussion had been sparked by a more transparent executive branch, rather than by unauthorized leaks, we welcome an open debate about the federal government’s dragnet collection of Americans’ phone records under Section 215 of the USA Patriot Act.

Our view of this program is shaped by our experience with the NSA’s bulk e-mail records collection program. Concerned about this program’s impact on Americans’ civil liberties and privacy rights, we spent a significant portion of 2011 pressing intelligence officials to provide evidence of its usefulness. They were not able to do so, and it was shut down that year. This experience demonstrated to us that intelligence agencies’ assessments of the effectiveness of particular collection programs are not always accurate, and it led us to be skeptical of claims about the value of collecting bulk phone records.

The federal government’s collection of phone metadata under the Patriot Act sucks up records on millions of law-abiding Americans daily. We believe that large-scale collection of personal information by the government seriously infringes on Americans’ privacy. The details of whom Americans call, when they call and where they call from is private information. In our opinion, the government’s ongoing, overly broad collection is not authorized under a straightforward interpretation of the Patriot Act or any other law.

more...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-white-house-should-end-the-bulk-collection-of-americans-phone-records/2013/07/26/c3c0103e-f553-11e2-9434-60440856fadf_story.html
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The White House should end the bulk collection of Americans’ phone records (Original Post) flpoljunkie Jul 2013 OP
They Are Right cantbeserious Jul 2013 #1
k&r for exposure. n/t Laelth Jul 2013 #2
Nothing should be stopped without information. randome Jul 2013 #3
Everything should be stopped based on its constitutionality GiaGiovanni Jul 2013 #5
Constitutionality has nothing to do with phone metadata. randome Jul 2013 #8
I see. So the end justifies the means. PSPS Jul 2013 #6
There is no 'intended purpose' clause in the Constitution, is there? randome Jul 2013 #9
But the records are property of companies (and even individuals) The Straight Story Jul 2013 #10
K&R nt Mnemosyne Jul 2013 #4
What's the harm? treestar Jul 2013 #7
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
3. Nothing should be stopped without information.
Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:24 AM
Jul 2013

Does the practice serve a useful purpose?

Are there sufficient safeguards and restrictions in place to prevent abuse? From what we've learned so far, there are but we could use official confirmation of that.

To stop the collection of metadata because some don't like it is a valid position but it smacks of anti-intellectualism.

These records are not our property so they don't fall under 4th Amendment protections.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
8. Constitutionality has nothing to do with phone metadata.
Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:19 AM
Jul 2013

That has long been ruled to not be personal effects. Going by your criteria, the metadata copies would not be stopped.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

PSPS

(13,620 posts)
6. I see. So the end justifies the means.
Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:00 AM
Jul 2013

Sorry, that won't work. One might say that calling records aren't "our property," but they aren't the property of the government or any spy agency either. Their intended purpose is to produce bills and maintain the telephone network, not to "watch people."

As to the 4th amendment, calling records are absolutely protected. As these records are generated by our personal behavior, they become part of our (and, in fact, the phone companies') "persons, houses, papers, and effects." To say otherwise is ridiculous.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
9. There is no 'intended purpose' clause in the Constitution, is there?
Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:21 AM
Jul 2013

Courts have long ruled this type of data is not covered under the 4th Amendment. You may not like that but it's reality.

Yours is, I admit, a good argument to be made. But as it stands now, there is no law covering it so the NSA is not violating any law.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
10. But the records are property of companies (and even individuals)
Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:23 AM
Jul 2013

Any joe can set up their own email server/web server etc in their basement.

Does the govt get access to that? Why/why not?

Why would terrorists use google/yahoo/etc when all they need is their own personal mail server on the internet. Should we be checking all those records as well?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
7. What's the harm?
Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:03 AM
Jul 2013

What is the potential for abuse? Who has abused anything?

Wiretapping the phones might be abuse, but this metadata is hardly very scary. The phone companies have it. Have they abused it?

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