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whttevrr

(2,345 posts)
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 10:55 AM Aug 2013

"In a democracy, the law should never be secret."

This quote: "In a democracy, the law should never be secret."
is from this article: http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech-national-security/edward-snowden-whistleblower

How come this is not said more?

I had several conversations with some co workers that just floored me recently. One said: "Why haven't they killed that guy yet?" I was flabbergasted. This person was angry. He wanted Snowden dead... And another said... "The 4th Amendment was written in a different time. Things have changed. With all this digital stuff we need to change it."

I won't even get into the one who said: "The 4th? Which one is that?"

Of these three people one is furious and wants to either drone Snowden or send Seal Team 6 out for him. Another is thinking we need to change our 4th Amendment to accommodate the times. And the third is pretty much oblivious and unconcerned.

I myself never suspected there was anything unknown about my activities online. Maybe average joes/janes would be stymied by a username other than my actual name. But everything I do on the internet I have always suspected could be referenced in some database. The whole nature of it is about identification. I have to identify myself to the cable company to get an IP Address that identifies my traffic on the Internet. In order for information to travel from one point to another each point must be uniquely identified. Why? Because how else will the information get from one point to another without getting mixed up with all the other information that it travels with. I was just kind of hoping that no one was actually storing that information from all its disparate locations and indexing it in a searchable database.

I'm not doing anything wrong. But it's creepy. And, some of the things I look for could be suspect. I saw a Breaking Bad episode where the guy made exploding rock candy. I looked it up. Briefly. I did not want to leave tracks. I stymied my curiosity out of fear.

In grade school my teachers taught me how people died to give us a Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and Freedom. Then in High School they made me read The Scarlet Letter, The Crucible, and 1984. WTF!? Sadists. I was hoping for maybe a more Brave New World'ish kind of dystopia. I mean, at least there would be Soma and sex. Instead what we are seeing is the increasingly real possibility that we are heading towards 1984.

That sucks. I don't want a rat in a cage on my head.

I think 'probable cause' should be sacrosanct. I don't think the government should be able to just look at anyone's activity in a blanket sweep and then decide if there is probable cause to look further. And I certainly do not want some private contractor to be handling such things. I just wish more people were informed.

And, I too think that "In a democracy, the law should never be secret."

Should there be "Secret Laws" in a Democracy?




36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"In a democracy, the law should never be secret." (Original Post) whttevrr Aug 2013 OP
Should there be "Secret Laws" in a Democracy? questionseverything Aug 2013 #1
Thank you... whttevrr Aug 2013 #3
how ridiculous is it that you can't comfortably google about an episode of "breaking bad". unblock Aug 2013 #2
There is a lot I would like to read about... whttevrr Aug 2013 #4
Like what? tridim Aug 2013 #7
I would like to consult legal representation before answering. whttevrr Aug 2013 #10
You don't have to be specific. tridim Aug 2013 #13
Autobiotic Demagnetization of Paramagnetic Salts whttevrr Aug 2013 #15
I'll do the search right now. Nobody will care and no jack-booted feds will visit me. tridim Aug 2013 #25
No, you don't have to search as if someone's watching over your shoulder... tridim Aug 2013 #5
tridim, Should there be "Secret Laws" in a Democracy? whttevrr Aug 2013 #20
Of course not. tridim Aug 2013 #26
But it does have everything to do with my OP whttevrr Aug 2013 #31
Paranoia is an IMAGINED fear that they're out to get you hobbit709 Aug 2013 #24
What a stupid concept in our new Democratic Century of safety and shopping bliss. Safetykitten Aug 2013 #6
Now that you mention it... whttevrr Aug 2013 #11
Because we are not in a free Democracy. We are in a military state. PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #8
Guy Fawkes? whttevrr Aug 2013 #12
LOL. tridim Aug 2013 #14
is ignorance bliss? PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #16
I think he is trying to be funny. whttevrr Aug 2013 #17
I fully admit I'm ignorant to whatever it is your brain is telling you is amiss. nt tridim Aug 2013 #27
Yup Hydra Aug 2013 #18
K & R !!! WillyT Aug 2013 #9
'ignorance of the law is no excuse' markiv Aug 2013 #19
Kick for I don't want a rat in a cage on my head, either. Octafish Aug 2013 #21
I can't believe that teacher made me read that awful book... I think it's banned now {:oÞ whttevrr Aug 2013 #23
Where do you live? Banned? PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #28
It was snark... whttevrr Aug 2013 #30
Not strong enough FiveGoodMen Aug 2013 #22
K&R woo me with science Aug 2013 #29
Kicked and Recommended! nt Enthusiast Aug 2013 #32
"It is one of the genuine marks of servitude to have the law either concealed or precarious." bemildred Aug 2013 #33
Wow... thanks for the awesome quote! whttevrr Aug 2013 #34
Yes, and THAT is an authority figure when it comes to English law. nt bemildred Aug 2013 #35
Nope. Flash from the past: How Can Congress Debate a Secret Law? Jefferson23 Aug 2013 #36

whttevrr

(2,345 posts)
3. Thank you...
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:25 AM
Aug 2013

The terror fear terror was making me wonder...

(why is there no crossing fingers behind the back smiley?)

unblock

(52,286 posts)
2. how ridiculous is it that you can't comfortably google about an episode of "breaking bad".
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:16 AM
Aug 2013

we live in an amazing age with technology that can stimulate your curiosity and provide you with easy access to a way to expand you knowledge and understanding of the universe.

and you can do this all from the comfort of your own bedroom, naked if you care to, no one watching -- yet you still have to search as if someone's watching over your shoulder, looking to jump on you if any of your internet searches are deemed... "interesting".

whttevrr

(2,345 posts)
4. There is a lot I would like to read about...
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:28 AM
Aug 2013

Not to put into any kind of implementation, but some things are mind boggling. There are now a few things that I would never look for on the internet.

Isn't that just bizarre?

tridim

(45,358 posts)
13. You don't have to be specific.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:20 PM
Aug 2013

Just name one type of item you can't search for any more because of your paranoia.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
25. I'll do the search right now. Nobody will care and no jack-booted feds will visit me.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:59 PM
Aug 2013

You're being paranoid. Sorry.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
5. No, you don't have to search as if someone's watching over your shoulder...
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:28 AM
Aug 2013

That's called paranoia.

If someone is really that paranoid in their daily life, they likely have other serious issues that should be addressed first.

If someone is a criminal searching for information about criminal activity, they're just a moron.

whttevrr

(2,345 posts)
20. tridim, Should there be "Secret Laws" in a Democracy?
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:49 PM
Aug 2013

I'm trying to figure out if you are being funny. It seems like you are trying to be funny like when guys get together and they tease each other. But besides all that. I just have one question:

Should there be "Secret Laws" in a Democracy?

tridim

(45,358 posts)
26. Of course not.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:02 PM
Aug 2013

That has precisely nothing to do with you being paranoid about your Google searches that nobody cares about.

whttevrr

(2,345 posts)
31. But it does have everything to do with my OP
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 09:27 PM
Aug 2013

At least you agree that "In a Democracy, the law should not be secret." The actual title of my OP and the question asked by myself.

But labeling things paranoia really is a very good deflection into the woo.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
24. Paranoia is an IMAGINED fear that they're out to get you
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:20 PM
Aug 2013

If they really are watching you it's no longer paranoia.

 

markiv

(1,489 posts)
19. 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:10 PM
Aug 2013

and if you do know a secret law, that's evidence of espionage

'we're just trying to keep you safe'

i have a feeling, the future will be very, very safe

i do think that sometime, somewhere some prosecutor will make the arguement 'it is immpossible for *any* person to be innocent of this charge'

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
21. Kick for I don't want a rat in a cage on my head, either.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:04 PM
Aug 2013

Nor on yours or anybody's, for that matter.

Proud to write that several DUers have tried bringing up this subject over the past decade, with limited results.

Nowadays, though, it's become obvious why.

Know your BFEE: The Secret Government

whttevrr

(2,345 posts)
23. I can't believe that teacher made me read that awful book... I think it's banned now {:oÞ
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:18 PM
Aug 2013

From wikipedia:

Winston Smith, whose primal fear of rats is invoked when a wire cage holding hungry rats is fitted onto his face. As the rats are about to reach Winston's face, he shouts: "Do it to Julia!" thus betraying her, and relinquishing his love for her. At torture's end, upon accepting the doctrine of the Party, Winston now loves Big Brother and is reintegrated into Oceania society.


 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
28. Where do you live? Banned?
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:55 PM
Aug 2013

I hope you are joking.

If not, what backwards part of the Country are you in? If anything, it should be required reading. Fahrenheit 451, 1984, and Animal Farm were all required when I was in high school.

whttevrr

(2,345 posts)
30. It was snark...
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 09:21 PM
Aug 2013

But it seems as if 1984, The Scarlet Letter, and The Crucible are no longer required reading.

FiveGoodMen

(20,018 posts)
22. Not strong enough
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:08 PM
Aug 2013

If the laws are secret, then Democracy is impossible.

The people can't be in charge (Democracy) when someone else subjects them to laws without their knowledge or consent.

Anyone who attempts to make a secret law is a traitor to America and they belong in a cell awaiting their final shot.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
33. "It is one of the genuine marks of servitude to have the law either concealed or precarious."
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 08:35 AM
Aug 2013

"It is one of the genuine marks of servitude to have the law either concealed or precarious." -- Sir Edward Coke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Coke

whttevrr

(2,345 posts)
34. Wow... thanks for the awesome quote!
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:12 AM
Aug 2013

I like this guy. He had a lot of courage to declare the king to be subject to the law in the 1500's. I am surprised he was not killed.

wiki

As Chief Justice, Coke restricted the use of the ex officio (Star Chamber) oath and, in the Case of Proclamations and Dr. Bonham's Case, declared the king to be subject to the law, and the laws of Parliament to be void if in violation of "common right and reason"



Herman Melville's use of the quote in this context seems eerily apropos today.


White-Jacket: Or The World In A Man-Of-War By Herman Melville
What can be expected from a court whose deeds are done in the darkness of the recluse courts of the Spanish Inquisition? When that darkness is solemnised by an oath on the Bible? When an oligarchy of epaulets sits upon the bench, and a plebian top-man, without a jury, stands judicially naked at the bar?

In view of these things, and especially in view of the fact that, in several cases, the degree of punishment inflicted upon a man-of-war's-man is absolutely left to the discretion of the court, what shame should American legislators take to themselves, that with perfect truth we may apply to the entire body of the American man-of-war's-men that infallible principle of Sir Edward Coke: "It is one of the genuine marks of servitude to have law either concealed or precarious." But still better may we subscribe to the saying of Sir Mathew Hale in his History of the Common Law, that "the Martial Law, being based upon no settled principles, is, in truth and reality, no law but something indulged rather than allowed as a law."


#secretlawsucks

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
36. Nope. Flash from the past: How Can Congress Debate a Secret Law?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 08:26 PM
Aug 2013


snip* But by far the most important interpretation of what the law means is the official interpretation used by the U.S. government and this interpretation is - stunningly -classified.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sen-ron-wyden/how-can-congress-debate-a_b_866920.html
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