General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe intelligence committees, not the Obama admin, withheld information from members of Congress
According to these statements, the administration provided key information to Congress that wasn't shared with all members.
Former Wyden staffer:
EK: All this would seem to make the intelligence committee very weak as an oversight vehicle.
JH: When things are public, you in the press can conduct oversight. But can you imagine if the administration said we wont tell you how the Affordable Care Act is working? You just have to trust us? Thered be an uproar. But the intelligence committee is one of the only bodies in government with the authority to conduct oversight over the intelligence world. And since 9/11, theres an understandable fear that terrorist attacks happen. Nobody wants to have done anything to be responsible for that. Every time TSA says they dont want to look for knives anymore because it slows them down, no member of Congress wants to be on the record for voting for something that might someday help someone hijack a plane. Because of that fear members of Congress often abdicate their oversight role.
The Obama administration says any member of Congress could look at these documents. Yes, the intelligence committee knew, and members could go into the intelligence committee room and read the documents. But they couldnt bring staff, they couldnt take notes, they couldnt consult outside legal scholars. They could only talk to the government which would, surprise, tell them it was great.
- more -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/07/the-intelligence-committee-cant-tell-you-what-theyre-not-telling-you/
On June 19, Grayson wrote to the House Intelligence Committee requesting several documents relating to media accounts about the NSA. Included among them were FISA court opinions directing the collection of telephone records for Americans, as well as documents relating to the PRISM program.
But just over four weeks later, the Chairman of the Committee, GOP Rep. Mike Rogers, wrote to Grayson informing him that his requests had been denied by a Committee "voice vote".
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/04/congress-nsa-denied-access
Intelligence committee withheld key file before critical NSA vote, Amash claims
Justin Amash, the Michigan Republican whose effort to defund the NSA's mass phone-records collection exposed deep congressional discomfort with domestic spying, said the House intelligence committee never allowed legislators outside the panel to see a 2011 document that described the surveillance in vague terms.
The document, a classified summary of the bulk phone records collection effort justified under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, was declassified by the Obama administration in late July.
The Justice Department and intelligence agencies prepared it for Congress before a 2011 vote to reauthorize the Patriot Act, and left it for the intelligence committees in Congress to make the document available to their colleagues.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/12/intelligence-committee-nsa-vote-justin-amash
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)this information caught some off guard. The beauty is look who let the cat out of the bag...a teabagger Congressman.
It just doesn't get any better than this.
Yep.
I'm still waiting to hear what Feinstein said to Wyden after that question which couldn't have been answered in public. If you know what I mean...
ProSense
(116,464 posts)is something bizarre about this entire episode, from Snowden to all the he said, she said.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)A Republican Committee chair buried some documents; that's a dick move but hardly a crime.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)The House Committee On Intelligence didn't give the full House every document. That's normal. Not lying.
mick063
(2,424 posts)Just who in the hell is in charge?
Not the General Assembly? Not the President?
A couple folks that head up a committee?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)The President isn't "in charge" of Congress. Remember the whole oversight thing?
mick063
(2,424 posts)So the House Republicans are behind all of this.
Shouldn't the President be really pissed about it?
Why isn't he?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Whether or not you know if the President is "pissed" about this?
I mean, what gives you the impression that he's happy about what's going on?
mick063
(2,424 posts)I am worried that our President apparently lets a few committee members from the House dictate our surveillance policy.
I am just using your narrative here.
Explain to me how the President is unhappy with the surveillance state. Give me some "Wyden like" quotes please.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Look it up.
mick063
(2,424 posts)Answer the question.
You have an endless supply of links. I know you can come up with one.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"You have an endless supply of links. I know you can come up with one."
Grandstanding by Congress.
You don't merit any "links," and from your first comment, I knew better than to take you seriously.
mick063
(2,424 posts)Just as I thought.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"You cannot answer the question. Just as I thought."
I don't take you seriously, and I gave you two answers
You asked: "Explain to me how the President is unhappy with our surveillance state."
I responded:
Too many leaks.
Grandstanding by Congress.
You're not happy with those, not my fault.
dkf
(37,305 posts)That's the first time you seem to get it. Congratulations!
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Wow. What you just stated is that Obama's only problem with the surveillance state is leaks. That's the first time you seem to get it. Congratulations!"
My answer was snark, and even with that, it implied no such thing. I can't read Obama's mind.
Your response is telling though.
dkf
(37,305 posts)And you have an encyclopedic memory of every article on every topic ever offered by Obama. You sure you can't read his mind by now?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"And you have an encyclopedic memory of every article on every topic ever offered by Obama. You sure you can't read his mind by now?"
I hope that was snark. LOL!
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)The FISA court consists of all republicans
Recursion
(56,582 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Gotta good link?
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)mick063
(2,424 posts)Good link.
Heh. It's a great link to pass around even when you already know how it all works. Come election time they do a great job.
mick063
(2,424 posts)Really.
Good link.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)Get'm Obama
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Of not actually doing their job and playing political lip service to constituents.
At least Al came around and said it's too secretive.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)That's because people fill in the blanks and this is a very imaginative country.
It went from monitoring overseas meta-data to "Obama is looking at my porn."
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)As far as Franken knew the program is there to protect, and has protected.
However, as he scrutinized it further he found holes with it, and areas where it is too secretive.
In the end he doesn't change his mind about the former position but the latter position change sounds like he thinks something can be improved about the program.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)The problem is the conventional reaction in DC is Democrats are all a bunch of hippies that can't be trusted since the Cold War.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)In their entirety.
There are starting to be too many outlets with the data.
It'll be published.
Like the Wikileaks files were published fully once the private key keeping them encrypted was set free.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)....was available to random geek working for a private company.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)But the Verizon order is enough that I think the entire secret court orders are in his stash of data, and they will come to light. How, when, and why, I can't say, but there are too many people with the data to not release it. It may be redacated, with names, but Spegiel.de's commentary on this indicates to me that they will release a chunk of it.
I had an infographic that I don't feel like googling for that showed that the NSA is 75% subcontractor which means that many of their contractors are civilians like Snowden. In the end, laughably, the US intelligence community is a joke. It's like hiring lots of Stratfor's and if anyone with the intent to release data wants to, they can. Snowden is just the beginning. The reason so many others don't release data is they get good paychecks. Take their paychecks away and see what happens.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)The perfect Benghazi: no hard to spell names and an all-American model to sell the brand. And the usual dividends accrue to the usual suspects.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)influencing the Intelligence Committees to withhold information as much as possible. It's just a coincidence that the Intel Committees and all of the administration (President, NSA, DoJ, FISA court, FBI, Homeland Security, DEA, etc.) all happen to be such big advocates of total secrecy and violating the 4th Amendment? Of course that didn't come from Obama setting policy, or anything, because we all know that he doesn't have the power to do anything at all. And of course his policies didn't come from humoring the very same big lobbying contractors that also payoff the members of the Intel Committees. Nah, couldn't happen.
Got it. It's "the other guy is guilty too" defense. So what? They're both just as guilty.
Here's a thought. All three branches of government could right now declassify all the documents our Representatives and Senators and privacy advocates have been requesting and suing for, so that the public and Congress and the press can do the oversight which the Constitution requires. That oversight is part of the "checks and balances" which are necessary to our system of government.
We don't have a Constitution which mandates rule by a few in secrecy, in case you didn't notice. Yet that is what we have now and that must change. That is not optional.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)....oh,....and beer. Lots of beer.
And a generator to run the fridge because warm beer is UN-American.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...of the "dome of silence" that was placed over Congresswoman Pelosi and Senator Rockefeller when the dubya regime's illegal wiretapping was exposed. IRC, Rockefeller wrote letters to protest that ended up being filed in his desk.
I'm all for some kind of action that enables a member...especially if they're in leadership...to be immune from these shackles. Unfortunately there's so much unknown and kept secret about the NSA and the overall surveillance of American citizens that it only invites the wild speculation we witness daily. We really need a new Church commission and some congresscritters and senators with the ability to transcend the talking points to give us an honest investigation...
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...it's one of the few stunts they haven't tried yet. They don't need real charges, they'll just make up stuff and try to ram it through the House next year...just like they did with Clinton in '98.
Cheers...
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts).....failing to stop a Bush/Cheney era program.