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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:51 PM Aug 2013

The intelligence committees, not the Obama admin, withheld information from members of Congress

According to these statements, the administration provided key information to Congress that wasn't shared with all members.

Former Wyden staffer:

<...>

EK: All this would seem to make the intelligence committee very weak as an oversight vehicle.

JH: When things are public, you in the press can conduct oversight. But can you imagine if the administration said we won’t tell you how the Affordable Care Act is working? You just have to trust us? There’d be an uproar. But the intelligence committee is one of the only bodies in government with the authority to conduct oversight over the intelligence world. And since 9/11, there’s an understandable fear that terrorist attacks happen. Nobody wants to have done anything to be responsible for that. Every time TSA says they don’t want to look for knives anymore because it slows them down, no member of Congress wants to be on the record for voting for something that might someday help someone hijack a plane. Because of that fear members of Congress often abdicate their oversight role.

The Obama administration says any member of Congress could look at these documents. Yes, the intelligence committee knew, and members could go into the intelligence committee room and read the documents. But they couldn’t bring staff, they couldn’t take notes, they couldn’t consult outside legal scholars. They could only talk to the government which would, surprise, tell them it was great.

- more -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/07/the-intelligence-committee-cant-tell-you-what-theyre-not-telling-you/


<...>

On June 19, Grayson wrote to the House Intelligence Committee requesting several documents relating to media accounts about the NSA. Included among them were FISA court opinions directing the collection of telephone records for Americans, as well as documents relating to the PRISM program.

But just over four weeks later, the Chairman of the Committee, GOP Rep. Mike Rogers, wrote to Grayson informing him that his requests had been denied by a Committee "voice vote".

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/04/congress-nsa-denied-access


Intelligence committee withheld key file before critical NSA vote, Amash claims

<...>

Justin Amash, the Michigan Republican whose effort to defund the NSA's mass phone-records collection exposed deep congressional discomfort with domestic spying, said the House intelligence committee never allowed legislators outside the panel to see a 2011 document that described the surveillance in vague terms.

The document, a classified summary of the bulk phone records collection effort justified under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, was declassified by the Obama administration in late July.

The Justice Department and intelligence agencies prepared it for Congress before a 2011 vote
to reauthorize the Patriot Act, and left it for the intelligence committees in Congress to make the document available to their colleagues.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/12/intelligence-committee-nsa-vote-justin-amash


57 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The intelligence committees, not the Obama admin, withheld information from members of Congress (Original Post) ProSense Aug 2013 OP
Then Obama will no doubt prosecute them. Right? nt Demo_Chris Aug 2013 #1
Yeah, he'll send the DOJ right over. n/t ProSense Aug 2013 #3
For????? DevonRex Aug 2013 #6
I'm guessing ProSense Aug 2013 #15
Heh. DevonRex Aug 2013 #19
Yeah, there ProSense Aug 2013 #29
Lying to congress. nt Demo_Chris Aug 2013 #31
Who lied to Congress? Recursion Aug 2013 #34
They have the Intelligence Committee for a reason. DevonRex Aug 2013 #47
Which leads to the question............. mick063 Aug 2013 #2
In the House: Republicans. ProSense Aug 2013 #4
Ohhh I see. mick063 Aug 2013 #7
That's what you're worried about? ProSense Aug 2013 #9
Yes I am worried mick063 Aug 2013 #10
Well, as you admit below, you're not really up on how the government works. ProSense Aug 2013 #13
Explain to me how the President is unhappy with our surveillance state. mick063 Aug 2013 #21
Too many leaks. ProSense Aug 2013 #24
You cannot answer the question. mick063 Aug 2013 #25
You really don't get it do you? ProSense Aug 2013 #26
Wow. What you just stated is that Obama's only problem with the surveillance state is leaks. dkf Aug 2013 #30
LOL! Guess what? ProSense Aug 2013 #39
Oh but you know him so well being his #1 fan. dkf Aug 2013 #40
What the hell are you talking about? Unlike you, I'm not a mindreader. ProSense Aug 2013 #41
The republicans are happy that this is exploding Rosa Luxemburg Aug 2013 #27
Why do you think he isn't? (nt) Recursion Aug 2013 #33
Three co-equal branches. Didn't you take political science? nt DevonRex Aug 2013 #5
Teach me. mick063 Aug 2013 #8
Vote Smart: DevonRex Aug 2013 #17
Well played sir mick063 Aug 2013 #20
:-) DevonRex Aug 2013 #22
I think I might just read some of it. mick063 Aug 2013 #23
Heads are surly gonna roll now usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #11
I'm not going to miss this: ProSense Aug 2013 #55
Will they be making reservations at the Moscow airport before their passports are revoked? Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2013 #12
What does that mean? n/t ProSense Aug 2013 #14
Well, if he can pull the passports of ordinary citizens why not congressmen who displease him? Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2013 #16
What? n/t ProSense Aug 2013 #18
ROFL snooper2 Aug 2013 #56
This explains why Al Franken said everything was fine. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #28
+1, even Al Franken is in the cycle. joshcryer Aug 2013 #37
"Al came around and said it's too secretive." Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #43
More politicans don't shoot straight. joshcryer Aug 2013 #49
Yeah, like transparency to congress.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #50
Good thing is, I expect Snowden's files to come to light. joshcryer Aug 2013 #51
Nice to know all of this gamma, ultra, magenta super duper secret stuff,... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #52
NSA claims nothing big was found. joshcryer Aug 2013 #53
What would crack me up is if the holes and back doors in Windows were for the NSA. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #54
All the pieces fit together so neatly, don't they? ucrdem Aug 2013 #32
And the NSA, which is under the Executive Branch, had nothing to do with Waiting For Everyman Aug 2013 #35
It's easier to just fill sandbags and buy guns.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #42
LOL! n/t ProSense Aug 2013 #48
Timmy did it. Warren Stupidity Aug 2013 #36
Reminds Me... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #38
With Republicans? I expect any investigation to fall under an effort to impeach. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #44
Agreed... KharmaTrain Aug 2013 #45
Ask, "What's the charge?" and it'll be.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #46
K & R Scurrilous Aug 2013 #57

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
15. I'm guessing
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:51 AM
Aug 2013

this information caught some off guard. The beauty is look who let the cat out of the bag...a teabagger Congressman.

It just doesn't get any better than this.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
19. Heh.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:57 AM
Aug 2013

Yep.

I'm still waiting to hear what Feinstein said to Wyden after that question which couldn't have been answered in public. If you know what I mean...

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
29. Yeah, there
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 01:47 AM
Aug 2013

is something bizarre about this entire episode, from Snowden to all the he said, she said.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
34. Who lied to Congress?
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 05:35 AM
Aug 2013

A Republican Committee chair buried some documents; that's a dick move but hardly a crime.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
47. They have the Intelligence Committee for a reason.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 03:55 PM
Aug 2013

The House Committee On Intelligence didn't give the full House every document. That's normal. Not lying.

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
2. Which leads to the question.............
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:12 AM
Aug 2013

Just who in the hell is in charge?

Not the General Assembly? Not the President?

A couple folks that head up a committee?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
4. In the House: Republicans.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:19 AM
Aug 2013

The President isn't "in charge" of Congress. Remember the whole oversight thing?

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
7. Ohhh I see.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:22 AM
Aug 2013

So the House Republicans are behind all of this.

Shouldn't the President be really pissed about it?

Why isn't he?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
9. That's what you're worried about?
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:33 AM
Aug 2013

Whether or not you know if the President is "pissed" about this?

I mean, what gives you the impression that he's happy about what's going on?

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
10. Yes I am worried
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 12:37 AM
Aug 2013

I am worried that our President apparently lets a few committee members from the House dictate our surveillance policy.

I am just using your narrative here.


Explain to me how the President is unhappy with the surveillance state. Give me some "Wyden like" quotes please.

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
21. Explain to me how the President is unhappy with our surveillance state.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 01:08 AM
Aug 2013

Answer the question.

You have an endless supply of links. I know you can come up with one.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
24. Too many leaks.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 01:13 AM
Aug 2013

"You have an endless supply of links. I know you can come up with one."

Grandstanding by Congress.

You don't merit any "links," and from your first comment, I knew better than to take you seriously.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
26. You really don't get it do you?
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 01:23 AM
Aug 2013

"You cannot answer the question. Just as I thought."

I don't take you seriously, and I gave you two answers


You asked: "Explain to me how the President is unhappy with our surveillance state."

I responded:

Too many leaks.

Grandstanding by Congress.

You're not happy with those, not my fault.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
30. Wow. What you just stated is that Obama's only problem with the surveillance state is leaks.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 02:04 AM
Aug 2013

That's the first time you seem to get it. Congratulations!

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
39. LOL! Guess what?
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 09:33 AM
Aug 2013

"Wow. What you just stated is that Obama's only problem with the surveillance state is leaks. That's the first time you seem to get it. Congratulations!"

My answer was snark, and even with that, it implied no such thing. I can't read Obama's mind.

Your response is telling though.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
40. Oh but you know him so well being his #1 fan.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 10:11 AM
Aug 2013

And you have an encyclopedic memory of every article on every topic ever offered by Obama. You sure you can't read his mind by now?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
41. What the hell are you talking about? Unlike you, I'm not a mindreader.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 10:16 AM
Aug 2013

"And you have an encyclopedic memory of every article on every topic ever offered by Obama. You sure you can't read his mind by now?"

I hope that was snark. LOL!



DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
22. :-)
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 01:10 AM
Aug 2013

Heh. It's a great link to pass around even when you already know how it all works. Come election time they do a great job.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
37. +1, even Al Franken is in the cycle.
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 07:44 AM
Aug 2013

Of not actually doing their job and playing political lip service to constituents.

At least Al came around and said it's too secretive.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
43. "Al came around and said it's too secretive."
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 11:26 AM
Aug 2013

That's because people fill in the blanks and this is a very imaginative country.

It went from monitoring overseas meta-data to "Obama is looking at my porn."

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
49. More politicans don't shoot straight.
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 12:30 AM
Aug 2013

As far as Franken knew the program is there to protect, and has protected.

However, as he scrutinized it further he found holes with it, and areas where it is too secretive.

In the end he doesn't change his mind about the former position but the latter position change sounds like he thinks something can be improved about the program.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
50. Yeah, like transparency to congress....
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 12:54 AM
Aug 2013

The problem is the conventional reaction in DC is Democrats are all a bunch of hippies that can't be trusted since the Cold War.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
51. Good thing is, I expect Snowden's files to come to light.
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 01:12 AM
Aug 2013

In their entirety.

There are starting to be too many outlets with the data.

It'll be published.

Like the Wikileaks files were published fully once the private key keeping them encrypted was set free.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
52. Nice to know all of this gamma, ultra, magenta super duper secret stuff,...
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 03:27 AM
Aug 2013

....was available to random geek working for a private company.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
53. NSA claims nothing big was found.
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 04:36 AM
Aug 2013

But the Verizon order is enough that I think the entire secret court orders are in his stash of data, and they will come to light. How, when, and why, I can't say, but there are too many people with the data to not release it. It may be redacated, with names, but Spegiel.de's commentary on this indicates to me that they will release a chunk of it.

I had an infographic that I don't feel like googling for that showed that the NSA is 75% subcontractor which means that many of their contractors are civilians like Snowden. In the end, laughably, the US intelligence community is a joke. It's like hiring lots of Stratfor's and if anyone with the intent to release data wants to, they can. Snowden is just the beginning. The reason so many others don't release data is they get good paychecks. Take their paychecks away and see what happens.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
32. All the pieces fit together so neatly, don't they?
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 05:02 AM
Aug 2013

The perfect Benghazi: no hard to spell names and an all-American model to sell the brand. And the usual dividends accrue to the usual suspects.

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
35. And the NSA, which is under the Executive Branch, had nothing to do with
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 05:55 AM
Aug 2013

influencing the Intelligence Committees to withhold information as much as possible. It's just a coincidence that the Intel Committees and all of the administration (President, NSA, DoJ, FISA court, FBI, Homeland Security, DEA, etc.) all happen to be such big advocates of total secrecy and violating the 4th Amendment? Of course that didn't come from Obama setting policy, or anything, because we all know that he doesn't have the power to do anything at all. And of course his policies didn't come from humoring the very same big lobbying contractors that also payoff the members of the Intel Committees. Nah, couldn't happen.

Got it. It's "the other guy is guilty too" defense. So what? They're both just as guilty.

Here's a thought. All three branches of government could right now declassify all the documents our Representatives and Senators and privacy advocates have been requesting and suing for, so that the public and Congress and the press can do the oversight which the Constitution requires. That oversight is part of the "checks and balances" which are necessary to our system of government.

We don't have a Constitution which mandates rule by a few in secrecy, in case you didn't notice. Yet that is what we have now and that must change. That is not optional.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
42. It's easier to just fill sandbags and buy guns....
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 11:21 AM
Aug 2013

....oh,....and beer. Lots of beer.




And a generator to run the fridge because warm beer is UN-American.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
38. Reminds Me...
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 07:55 AM
Aug 2013

...of the "dome of silence" that was placed over Congresswoman Pelosi and Senator Rockefeller when the dubya regime's illegal wiretapping was exposed. IRC, Rockefeller wrote letters to protest that ended up being filed in his desk.

I'm all for some kind of action that enables a member...especially if they're in leadership...to be immune from these shackles. Unfortunately there's so much unknown and kept secret about the NSA and the overall surveillance of American citizens that it only invites the wild speculation we witness daily. We really need a new Church commission and some congresscritters and senators with the ability to transcend the talking points to give us an honest investigation...

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
45. Agreed...
Tue Aug 13, 2013, 11:48 AM
Aug 2013

...it's one of the few stunts they haven't tried yet. They don't need real charges, they'll just make up stuff and try to ram it through the House next year...just like they did with Clinton in '98.

Cheers...

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