reminds you to manage upwards in order to not overheat.

Which is hilariously inappropriate in this context. Sounds like the young man was already doing that.

I think they meant to say "he should have said he was overworked". Yeah, that would have gone over well with management.

BoA=shit

You're burning out? Well, why didn't you tell your boss? Because obviously, in a culture like that, your boss wants to hear when you're "overheating"!

At that age I was working at times 72 hours in 98 degrees with humidity doing construction work. I was obviously more healthy than this poor young man. Our union forced the company into hiring more workers so we wouldn't be eaten alive for the company's profits.

His death is tied to his medical condition. What's nearly as offensive his life being lost is that internships run like this are nothing but a 1% dream and abuse.

Working anyone for 72 hours when it's not an emergency (as we did) is insane. There is no reason for this and those workers need a union to protect them.

Good grief, what his family and friends must going through to have lost him over this. He had much to look forward to and I'm sure he was a bright young man.

It's happening more and more as working people are being devoured for profit worldwide. And I'm surprised this is going on in Britain which is known for better labor laws, but maybe those only apply to union or hourly workers and not salaried position where people are abused.

We can say to sue them for this, but they can't possibly pay enough for his life. Maybe someone from the UK can explain what the law can do to stop this from happening. Many people thought the UK had a good record on labor rights in recent times. I was one.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Less respect for workers and less unions creates this scenario. Damned greedy bosses.

This is a horrible story. But as a young man, i would hope he would have known his physical limits and dealt with his chronic health issue. I agree with your post, though.

I've heard of the unpaid internship foolishness. It's work, it's time, it costs money to dress, driver or take the bus, and a place to live. No way anyone should be unpaid. It's abuse, should not be allowed in any country. I know they give all kinds of excuses of why it's such a gift to be trained that pay isn't needed. Just my opinion, though.

Also because most people can't afford to intern at low or no salaries.
Like I said, I would be surprised by them being union, although I hope they are.

My wife is a member of the NEA as is all of her colleagues. At one time there were two staunch Republicans who refused to join the union and pay its dues, however, they were included in union representation. They would bash the union, but when the union secured agreements and benefits, including raises, these two took advantage of it and never complained.

In our house, these two colleagues were known as "The Parasites."

I traveled around a lot in the 90s as a corporate legal assistant (where we also worked the all nighters - but we were bright enough to cover for each other when we wanted to take naps - bankers are stupid).

Anyway, the only time I ever encountered unions was when companies had offices attached to manufacturing plants. Then we couldn't lift our own boxes - we were given numbers to call union workers when we needed things moved because it would violate contracts for non-union workers to move things. I loved those offices

When I tell people the 6-figure bankers and lawyers are in the same boat as the other workers they sometimes don't understand. It is the kids that work their way up w/loans and scholarships that are tied to these jobs. Wealthier kids can start their own businesses w/help from their parents. But kids who take out loans to get through the pricey business and law schools take these jobs and work them to pay off their student loans.

Typically they are paid jobs in the law firms - summer internships and the like are well compensated. But, yes, they require long hours. We always referred to it as "golden handcuffs". I would imagine the bankers have the same deal - very hard to get the positions (top grades in top schools) but once you're in there they pay you well - and you work whenever they tell you to. The owners have these employees where they want them - that is how they are no different than other workers.

He was still a worker and treated as one. We would have wooed him and others to our side.

You work 100 hours a week, you should see how much that should be earning you --- However, most o that earning goes to the capitalist organization; as your health deteriorates to nothingness. There is no denying we are overworked and under payed and so is this kid. You can believe the lies you've read or misinterpretation of Marx and Engels' points. But they made valid ones. I'll have you know that Marx believed in capitalism and was a larger supporter of Adam Smith. Problem is, he also felt that capitalism would eventually fall like feudalism because inherently built with it is the abuse of labor.

I really don't get this collective farm. Russia, Cuba, and China were never truly Marxist derived nations.

Here is one starting up out of chaos:

http://www.indypendent.org/2009/08/13/worker-run-businesses-flourish-argentina

Taking the profit margin out of a business doesn't guarantee responsible labor rates, and keeping profits in the equation doesn't prevent them.

Yup, moving all that imaginary, fiat, stuff from one computer bit to another is tough. Massive amounts of manpower are needed to ensure the plutocracy remains in economic control of the world.

Obviously you have no experience in finance?

My point was, that banking is not "real work" that benefits the human race. Bankings only purpose is serving capitalism and thus serving plutocrats. It is a giant leech on humanity. It is not the only leech, but it is one of/if not the largest.

Personally, I like having my paycheck direct deposited in the bank, paying for stuff with a debit card. I like having been able to borrow the money to buy certain selected items. Car & house, specifically. I like not having to worry that someone will rob me of my gold & silver.

The young man should have refused to work those hours. Non-pay internships should be against the law. Those are a way to keep the 99% out of certain professions as only the 1% can support their kids while they work for nothing to get the experience for their resume.

so, the false conclusion is guaranteed. The false premise you labor under is that money of some form needs to exist. I find it humorous that we consider an idea created in 3000BC in Mesopotamia as the be-all-end-all for the human economic system. There is a reason that we believe this though. Because it is pervasive in our society. We have pushed it onto other societies when they have not used it. We push more and more capitalistic ideas onto simpler societies. We do this not to improve the societies, but to get them under the control of the Plutocracy. Plutocracy is the only reason that money needs to exist as it is known to us today. They have gamed the system for control over all of humanity. They will not let it go easily.

And, you are fighting their fight so they do not have to.

Barter is rather clumsy. Money is a way of dividing cows by pigs and getting corn for change. Suppose that I make shoes. You make hats. You want some shoes but I don't need a new hat. We are stuck. We can't trade. You have to find something that I need, trade your hat for it and then come back to me. Even then the trade may not be of equal value. With money we can haggle over the price, then you pay me, and later I can buy from someone else something that I need.

If there were something that could do the job of money and be better, somebody in the past few thousand years would have invented it. Money has been independently invented many times by different cultures, not just ancient Mesopotamia.

Everyone expects one person on a message board to have all the answers to society's ills. I have never understood that line of thinking. Just because I personally do not have the answer does not mean a better answer does not exist.

Money, in its current form, is a failure. It has allowed power to be accumulated in ways the people who invented it could never have imagined. There needs to be large groups (think G8) of economic minds, mathematicians, sociologists, etc. that get together in order to work out a better functioning system. One that benefits all of mankind.

For any economic activity above basic barter you need a medium of exchange. Take a look at the shoes/hat problem that I laid out. For us to be able to trade we need money. If there were a something that would do the job better, somebody would have already though of it. After all, humanity has had thousands of years to work on the problem. Even bit-coins are still a form of money.

You raise pigs. I raise corn. Your pigs mature at a different time (earlier) than my corn. For us to trade you have go keep your pigs and keep feeding them. You might pay me a pig today to lock in 20 bushels of corn, but I only need one pig. Much cheaper for you to sell, for money, all you excess pigs, and buy what you need as you need it, including my corn when it comes in. Then I take your money and go buy a pig from someone whose pigs are just now maturing.

The Mesopotamians weren't the only ones to invent money. Almost every culture has.

"Because there is no substutite for money."

If there were a something that would do the job better, somebody would have already though of it. After all, humanity has had thousands of years to work on the problem. Even bit-coins are still a form of money.

There have been revolutions that killed all of the current PTBs, but they still had to have some kind of medium of exchange - money. With the many, many revolutions that have occurred in various cultures over the past 5K years that means that the PTB have lost power many times. That mens that they were not able to use their power (since sometimes they were dead) to suppress anything. Trying to blame a vague group fails.

Stored money, aside from a modest amount, is indeed a failure. Stored money is money that is hid under the mattress, or buried in the back yard, etc. People learned long ago that storing money that way was a bad idea. Excess funds are better used by loaning the money to someone who will use it to increase their won productivity and then pay it back, with interest, from their increased production. IOW, after selling some shoes, I loan you the money to buy better hat making tools. You now make better hats, faster, sell more of them, and have more money than you had before so you can now pay me back, with interest. I now use the money again for a new loan to someone else. You now have some excess money.

Now you, me, Fred, and Jim, pool our extra money to loan to Bill so he can build a new barn for his cattle. Guess what? You, me, Fred and Jim have just invented banking. Banking is as old as money is, and the principles haven't changed.

It's average household wealth, not median adult wealth, but it's just been released by the Australian Bureau of Statistics, so it's hot off the presses...

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-households-28-per-cent-richer-than-national-average-20130821-2saq1.html

This particular household doesn't feel like it's worth $930,000 seeing we're always broke a few days before payday each fortnight

We need to figure it out. Stat. No reason that we in the US cannot have a median wealth of $190K per adult.

But a man is dead because an employer demanded unreasonable things from him. That is the point of the op.

it kills many 100s of thousands if not millions of people a year. This was just one of "us" and not "them." We do not consider the "thems" of society.

Harmful economic systems are the principal cause of poverty and hunger. Hunger Notes believes that the principal underlying cause of poverty and hunger is the ordinary operation of the economic and political systems in the world. Essentially control over resources and income is based on military, political and economic power that typically ends up in the hands of a minority, who live well, while those at the bottom barely survive, if they do. We have described the operation of this system in more detail in our special section on Harmful economic systems.
-------
Keeping people oppressed/preventing revolution

1. Basic statement. In essence, there is part of the population that is living well because of their control of assets and people. (This in the economic model referred to above is the winning coalition and it will also be referred to here as the ruling class.) The people whose assets and income have been reallocated don’t like this and thus there is the threat of revolution—overturning the minority in benefit of the majority. This is prevented in a number of ways.
-------
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm

assertion, than "banking kills."

The Banking industry is one of the primary tools used for the purposes of continued inequality. A similar statement is "guns do not kill, people kill." I say this is false. Guns do kill. So, I also refuse to say, "Banks do not kill, Plutocrats kill." No, the banks are tools of death wielded by the Plutocrats.

really. The banking industry has its share of corruption but it also enables people to drive to work, own homes and save for retirement.

....for a society that puts greed and wealth above all else, including life itself.

If this is true, why such strong support for Establishment Dems? They certainly do not agree with your stance on this issue.

He was so young.

Sleep-deprivation is no joke: You loose concentration (except for the stuff you absolutely know in and out, like hobbies and interests), you get aggressive, your back and feet hurt to the point where you cannot walk normally, you get cramps in the weirdest places because your organism builds up too much acid... ("Are you in zombie-mode already or can you keep on?&quot

As long as you keep standing, everything seems normal. If you sit down ONCE, your body starts shutting down and you have to fight to stay awake.

You've got a recipe for disaster.

Recipe for disaster is right.

Though the article states the cause of death for some reason it blames his death on the hours he worked. Though I think it's criminal that interns are treated so badly that they're expected to work extraordinary hours, he chose to work 72 hours straight knowing his own health concerns with his epilepsy and the dangers of extraordinary lack of sleep. The article doesn't even make it clear that he actually did work for 72 hours straight as they also say that three days in a row he left at 6 a.m. assuming that he went home for seemingly no reason and then went right back to work again.

It is unknown that his epileptic seizure was caused by his lack of sleep, and quite a leap seeing as he did have epilepsy and was in danger of having a seizure that could kill him anyway, lack of sleep or no. Sure, it's possible I suppose that his lack of sleep was what brought on the seizure, but nobody knows that, and frankly, I'm not seeing any way it could be known. Trying to make his death from an epileptic seizure into a leap that it was because of his lack of sleep is just shit journalism. His epilepsy killed him which may or may not have been exacerbated by his voluntary lack of sleep.

He knew he had epilepsy and knew that sleep deprivation could result in a serious seizure that could kill him. But the article is written in such a way as to try to blame his death on the hours he worked when that's not the case. He could just as well have died from a seizure had he been getting a good 8 hours of sleep every night. He was also not forced to work those hours but did so voluntarily knowing he could have a seizure and die. And he did. But it still isn't known whether or not his voluntary sleep deprivation contributed to his seizure or not. It could have and may have. That's it.

The way the article is written blames the hours he worked for his death and implies he was forced to work those hours only glossing over his epilepsy and death from an epileptic seizure as if his epilepsy had nothing to do with it. And that's exactly how it came across to many posters here going by the replies in the thread.

by complaining about an illness. Sadly - most people will plug along as they have to make a living.

No one should have to work that many hours consecutively. But an intern??? How could someone who is only working there for around 12 weeks be contributing in any meaningful way. Pushing interns like that makes no sense.

I'm the boss where I work and I put in way more hours than my staff. I would never dream of giving so much responsibility and pressure onto someone who is only in the office for a few months.

Honestly - it's not like folks have much of a choice these days. You work when they tell you or you can stand in line for free food.

And been through periods of unemployment as well - like right now. That doesn't mean I'd stay with a job that made me work 72 hours straight with no sleep. Any job that tried to force me to do that and fire me if I didn't would get sued up the wazoo. I live in a country that has rules against that kind of abuse of employees. Nobody with any sense allows themselves to be forced to work 72 hours straight with no sleep. I sure as hell wouldn't do that and neither would you. I actually have enough sense to resent workers that ARE willing to put up with absurd amounts of abuse from their employers because it hurts ALL workers.

This guy had already been through two other internships at other banks. He was WELL on his way toward a financially sound position where he'd be making money most people couldn't God-damned dreamed of ripping off decent people for an entity that has robbed ours and plenty of other countries blind without even a slap on the wrist. Pardon me if I don't feel sorry for some git that wants to do that and make a fortune off the backs of decent hard working people so much that they voluntarily allow themselves to be so grossly abused by their employer. I wouldn't have a hope in hell of making the amount of money he was and at 20 years old at that. Never in my life have I or COULD I make even a quarter of what he was making. But then my priorities are a lot different... I just want to live comfortably and be able to retire decently, not make more money than I could ever hope to spend in 5 lifetimes without actually having any time to spend it and die of a heart attack or get ulcers far too soon and all by swindling other people so I could get filthy dirty rich.

He knew he had epilepsy, knew that working such extreme hours could bring on a seizure and VOLUNTARILY did it anyway for an amount of money I couldn't ever hope in my wildest dreams to make so he could spend his working life ripping off decent folk for his employer.

you might try it.

Making excuses for a system that exploits folks and blaming the victims is never going to impress me.

in an air conditioned bank.

we all worked 14 hours days.

he died at home in a shower.

as a physics graduate student I was expected to put in 24 hour days and go sleep on a cot when the accelerator was down. I thought it was outrageous and all but we didn't even have the prospect of being rich. Just say'n

follow certain worker safety rules for paid employees. They should have to follow those same rules for interns and graduate students as well.

I remember thinking that I was walking around the Bevatron. (That was the accelerator up on the hill above Berkeley that discovered the anti-proton back in '52 in the late 80's it was upgraded with superconducting magnets to accelerate heavy ions like uranium which was my thesis.) I had not slept for 48 hours. Yeah I mean if I made a mistake I would die. It was much worse for the medical students and Medical residents. If they make a mistake - someone else dies.

I mean I was walking around in one of the most dangerous places on earth. Lethal high voltage only within a strides length all around me. Magnets with fields nearly as strong as on the sun. (They gate off and interlock the radiation areas when the beam is active.) High background radiation in the concrete blocks from decades of physics experiments. These levels were high enough that you couldn't legally live there - but we did.

Yeah we were absolute slaves. I'm serious. And the one thing they could hold over us was our blessed Ph.D. It was common practice in academia in those days. There has been some change but I'm sure that in the depths of the world's laboratories it is still going on much like it was for me back in '89.

I did at least one 24-hour shift per month during deadlines. And I didn't even get overtime, just comp time. I used to rack up so many hours that I was able to take a week off, which I did even though some people at the magazine didn't like it.

What does that even mean? Are they mistaking their interns and employees for machines or computer servers? Overheat? Manage upwards?

How many others are still there working these shifts?

That's a crime when there is no emergency. It's a lousy way to run a business, and hopefully against UK labor law. That operation needs oversight and regulation.

Things have been weird over there for a while. Remember the young nurse who killed herself over embarrassment about letting the prank call through the hospital switchboard?

Must be intense pressure on employees there.

at least in the law firms they don't because you're giving up your way of making more $$$.

Typical capitalism - if you are paid by the hours you work then your incentive is to work the hours. For lawyers they bill their time according to hours worked on a project, deal, whatever ... it's not just coming in and punching a clock. And then your bonus compensation is tied to those hours (never mind you are making good money as base anyway - and you need that salary to repay all the student loans you took out). The bonuses of course are going to be bigger depending upon how many hours you bill. If you bill 1800 hours you might get an extra 60K for the year, 2200 hours an extra $100K etc ... You're only going to delegate and give up the hours if you've already hit what you need for the year or you are absolutely swamped and can't take on any more.

That is just law firms - I don't know if bankers work that way. My guess is that there is some sort of incentive that is based on their amount/quality of work - maybe how much $$$ they bring into the firm. In order to hit those bonuses you will put in the hours to get the job done. And not just bonuses, it is also how you advance to higher levels.

A decent manager would help you by seeing what work could be shifted elsewhere (or just not done: not every task is vital), or see that you got extra help or resources for what had to be done. That was then...

The machine metaphor is telling.

it is not just them. All the large law firms and banks do it.

Because they're willing to work longer hours and have fewer outside interests?

Regularly clocking 100 or more hours means either they're doing the work of at least 2 people, or they haven't learned how to prioritize so the really important stuff gets done first and the make-work slides until there's time. Plus, the longer one works without a break, the sloppier one's work gets. But what do I know? I'm just a stupid sexagenarian.

But I think we're plenty smart enough to realize if we don't work when we are told to work, no matter how sloppy the work gets, we'll lose the job.

Having no life outside work sucks but not nearly as much as having no heat, or no place to live.

It has been like this ever since The Very Large Corporation of America took over The Crimson Permanent Assurance.

I'm sure people do their best work in hours 70-72...

This sounds like a really, really stupid business practice that can't possibly produce actual good work.

The interns take the abuse because they hope to some day get a high paying job at the firm they are interning at. I once had a job interview in NYC at one of the largest law firms in the country. A couple of days before the interview I heard on the news that one of their associates had worked non-stop for 2 to 3 days and collapsed. He had a heart attack and died. I think that he was in his early 30s. I called the agency and canceled the interview. A job is just that, a job. It shouldn't take over your life.

I see these young kids all the time. They have gone to good schools and are eager to make it big. Their dream is to make oodles of money and retire young. In the process they lose their soul to the company and have not much of a life outside of work.

Poor guy, may he rest in peace.

for the kids that didn't start out in wealthier families (like me) you have all the loans to pay back. And you have until forced retirement at 65 to do it. Along with your own kids to put through school ...

It's cool you were able to walk away. Sometimes I wish we had but we have the loans ...

I work for a Fortune 100, but in an area where we don't put in crazy hours like that poor kid.

Good luck with the loans. I was fortunate enough not to have any, that's why I could choose a place with a more sedate environment.

we don't care about fancy houses/cars so it's all paying back the loans and hopefully helping out our kids (I'd LOVE if mine could be in your position and pick something more sedate or - big dream - something they would really like to do). And retiring. We dream about that

If there is that much work? They will have the funds for it?

Never understood this attitude. i remember law firms where they worked 7 days a week. What is the effin' point?

capitalism does not reward that.

They could hire three people at 8 hours per day. And pay each one a third of the value. How is it cheaper for one person to work 24 hours than for 3 people to work 8 hours each?

If they are not paying overtime due to salaried position, then it's time to unionize those jobs or have the laws regarding maximum hours apply to them.

but it is not how things are done right now. It is not cheaper for them to hire 3 people at 8 hours because if one person does the work they do not have to worry about health care and office space for 3.

One fix is to open up Medicare as a universal health care system so health care isn't tied to jobs.

Another fix is to strengthen our unions. I'm getting older - when I was a kid in the 70s my dad and many others were in unions - those have fallen out of favor.

The best fix is to get rid of the capitalism (my opinion) but many folks still argue that some sort of mixed system of regulating will work.


All topics we could discuss but bottom line I agree with you - the way workers are being treated right now is crazy.

The intern is looking to impress.

a macho, strength based thing.

Yet it doesn't benefit the clients or customers, as clearly if they are working on your case in their 70th straight hour, they aren't going to do a good job. So even capitalism is not really served by that.

In law firms, financial firms, and other places is a form of hazing, just as potentially deadly as any of the stupid pranks that college fraternities pull. Working yourself to death before you are even out of your twenties over an internship? What's the point? And why do these young people never ask themselves that question?

Of course kids think through these questions.

Put yourself in their place. You are 21 years old and you didn't come from a wealthy or even comfortable family (or maybe you did - you'll see all levels in these jobs). You have loans to pay back from school. Do you want to take a government or small firm job and work for 50K-100K at best ... or do you want to make six figures starting out (the best large law firms start at $180K now) and have the potential to make high six figures or more if you are a partner by 40? If you retire at 60 (most of these firms force you out by 65) you have had 20+ years of very high income.

A lot of things can happen - you burn out and decide to go to a smaller place after you pay off some of the loans, firms go bankrupt and you decide to go in another direction, etc ... but bottom line that is what those kids are deciding at a very young age. Many of them are going to go for the money.

Of course it is not the ideal way to live - most of us would rather enjoy more free time with family/friends - but that is the decision they make.

And nobody ever lay there on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office. This mindset just makes no sense to me.

and it makes very little sense to folks who have some support, maybe a small inheritance, or didn't have to take out student loans. But if you grew up poor it is a chance to live the so-called "American Dream" ...

Just explaining how folks get into this - not advocating by any stretch. This is one of the many reasons I advocate getting rid of capitalism. It just rewards these inane behaviors.

Before we place the blame solely on BOA, I have to ask this question - because there's no way they'd get me to do that kind of work... and as an intern!

that is the bottom line.

If you were lucky enough to work for a company that didn't do it then that is great.

So this person is likely motivated to show they are a hard worker.

It's quite good money for a summer job. Not what someone would make if they get hired out of school, but pretty good.
GAC

I was commenting to a poster that said interns don't get paid. I simply stated that wasn't necessarily true.
Where i work isn't germane to the point. Obviously you missed the obvious.

banks and law firms - pay their "interns", "summer associates" and whatever else they call them good $$$. I believe this kid was making 46K pounds - I read that in one of the articles. That is not just London - it is NYC, Washington, LA, Houston, San Fran ...

They pay them well for the summer but the goal is a job offer after graduation. This is not every graduate out there - these are the top business school & law school grads from the very top schools.

On edit - found the cite. It was in the Guardian article - "who are understood to be paid £45,000 pro rata" (that is about $90K for his summer I believe - the top firms in the US do this as well).

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/aug/21/bank-intern-death-working-hours

Won't even buy a second-hand BMW or a semester of Grad School. What galls me is that there are people who think that it's cute that these kids are expected to work around-the-clock.

I didn't know what the exchange would be.

Some think it's cute, some are bitter because they think these kids will become very rich. As we see it doesn't always work out this way. We've been through it in our family and the loans have killed us ... yes you can pay them back eventually but good luck buying a house when carrying that kind of debt load etc. It is only great for the very rich (who inherit their money and then walk into jobs like this - for them it is ok).

I think it just hits home the fact that we need a more modest sustainable system for all of us.

in a bank?

In fact, what the hell requires 14 hour days?

It's not like people are breaking down the doors in order to deposit money.

They exploit people because that's their ethos.

Capitalism is the opposite of democracy.