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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsEdward Snowden’s Real Impact
Posted by Jeffrey Toobin
The assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert F. Kennedy led directly to the passage of a historic law, the Gun Control Act of 1968. Does that change your view of the assassinations? Should we be grateful for the deaths of these two men?
Of course not. Thats lunatic logic. But the same reasoning is now being applied to the actions of Edward Snowden. Yes, the thinking goes, Snowden may have violated the law, but the outcome has been so worthwhile. According to Glenn Greenwald, the journalist who was one of the primary vehicles for Snowdens disclosures, Snowden is very pleased with the debate that is arising in many countries around the world on Internet privacy and U.S. spying. It is exactly the debate he wanted to inform.... Snowden himself says, those who followed the law were nothing better than Nazis: I believe in the principle declared at Nuremberg, in 1945: Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring. ...Snowden has prompted an international discussion about surveillance, but its worthwhile to note that this debate is no academic exercise. It has real costs. Consider just a few.
What if Snowdens wrong? What if there is no pervasive illegality in the National Security Agencys surveillance programs?
Indeed, for all the excitement generated by Snowdens disclosures, there is no proof of any systemic, deliberate violations of law. Based on the ruling in a 1979 Supreme Court case, Smith v. Maryland, it is well established that individuals do not have an expectation of privacy in the phone numbers they call. This is not entirely surprising; we all know that were already sharing that information with the phone company. In the same way, its long established that the government has great latitude in intercepting communications between the United States and other countries. Its true, too, that while the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court is largely toothless, it has, on occasion, rejected some N.S.A. procedures, and the agency has made adjustments in response. That is not the act of an entirely lawless agency.
<...>
What did China and Russia learn about American surveillance operations from Snowdenand what will they do with this information?
As part of Snowdens flight from American justice, he went to two of the most repressive and technologically sophisticated countries on earth. (Hong Kong is, of course, part of China.) In an interview with Greenwald, Snowden said that the authorities in those countries behaved like perfect gentlemen.
I never gave any information to either government, and they never took anything from my laptops, Snowden said.
Oh, really? Is he serious? Should anyone believe a word of this? China and Russia spend billions of dollars conducting counterintelligence against the United States. An American citizen walks into their countries bearing the keys to our most secret programs, and bothboth!China and Russia decline to take even a peek. That is a preposterous proposition. Even assuming that Snowden believes he had control of his computers 24/7 (he never slept?), there is simply no way that China and Russia would pass up that kind of bounty.
- more -
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/08/edward-snowdens-real-impact.html
Another NSA "Bombshell" Starts to Fizzle Out, as Greenwald Pushes Government Conspiracy Theory
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023478767
The ACLU and others have been trying to redefine the term whistleblower to include Snowden.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023496530
ProSense
(116,464 posts)hueymahl
(2,510 posts)Malum per se vs. Malum Prohibitum
In English, the legal concept "Malum per se" is that some things are wrong or "evil in itself". The murder and assassinations referenced in the article are "evil in itself", therefore it is logically and morally flawed that whatever good came out of the murders justified the murders themselves.
By comparing the disclosure of "secrets", a Malum Prohibitum crime, or a crime that is not evil in itself but is only against the law because the rulers say it is, is literally like comparing apples and oranges. In other words, there is nothing inherently wrong or evil about what the leakers did. It is only against the law because someone said it is (and there are STRONG arguments that the laws are unconstitutional as applied, but lets not get sidetracked).
So basically the premise of the argument is logically flawed, therefore any reasoning based on that premise can be discarded. The things he is comparing are not the same.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)For anyone who cares, they can go read them.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)You can't offer your own rebuttal?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Not that you're not intelligent, you're just wrong when it comes to NSA spying on America.
railsback
(1,881 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Bottom line about opinions and NSA spying: If the secret government doesn't like your opinion, they've got your number and can use that information to do something about it.
That's un-democratic and un-American.
railsback
(1,881 posts)You can just make shit up and tell everyone else they're too stupid to notice.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Pay more attention and maybe you can connect some dots, too, someday.
railsback
(1,881 posts)Believe me, I try. Until then, they're not connectable.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Good thing you qualified your statement.
I mean, for a second I thought you were implying that disagreeing with someone is a sign of "intelligence."
Octafish
(55,745 posts)When it comes to secret government and its surveillance on Americans, it's still un-Constitutional, un-democratic and un-American.
"Good thing you qualified your statement."
Here's what doesn't need qualification:
Secret Government is un-American. Want to see what 62 years of secret government have got us? Look around -- permanent wars, the rich get richer and the middle class becomes the poor, who get poorer.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)I guess so. I am sorry I did not delete my post in time to keep it from hurting -- apparently hurting -- your feelings. No excuses on my part, I typed before counting to ten.
My point is secret government is not Constitutional government. That's not the smart thing to say. That is the proper thing to know if you believe in the Constitution.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)All you did is cut and paste someone's opinion and you expect a rebuttal?
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)Response to ProSense (Reply #3)
one_voice This message was self-deleted by its author.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)to agree with himself.
that could be part of the fan base.
chimpymustgo
(12,774 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)
You REALLY should take a break from your job, and read some of them. They might wedge a crack into your mind.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)uponit7771
(90,359 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)...should be called a hero.
Stupid ass'd logic from people supporting a guy who ran to Russia to get away from being oppressed
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)They were both murdered for their efforts.
The people behind and running the NSA are trying to enslave us, to destroy what's left of a version of democracy, that we used to have in this country, with their illegal and unconstitutional, all spying, all the time on everybody.
Snowden exposed wrong doing by our government, with proof. He is still doing so.
If he had nothing, this whole brouhaha would have gone down the memory hole months ago. But instead the facts coming out about the NSA keeps getting bigger and louder with each release of information. And you keep trying harder to buck the ever growing tide of facts, with links back to your own posts, as if that somehow give credence to your pro NSA/anti-Snowden spin and propaganda?
Most of us realized a long time ago, that this is about our own government going renegade on "We the people...". All Snowden did was pull the curtain back a bit and allow some light to fall on some illegal activities by some powerful member in our government.
"Snowden exposed wrong doing by our government, with proof. He is still doing so. "
...no he didn't.
Also, how is revealing U.S. state secrets to China trying to "change things for the better"?
RC
(25,592 posts)And what state secrets did Snowden reveal to China? All the NSA has is/was private meta data, phone and E-mail data collected from private communications. Where are the state secrets here? Even if the NSA had any state secrets, then those were obtained illegally also. Secret courts, Rubber stamp warrants, Little to no oversight, little to no accountability... How does this fit in with a free society?
"So you are admitting that what the NSA is hoovering up on all American citizens is OK with you?"
No.
"And what state secrets did Snowden reveal to China? All the NSA has is/was private meta data, phone and E-mail data collected from private communications. Where are the state secrets here? Even if the NSA had any state secrets, then those were obtained illegally also. Secret courts, Rubber stamp warrants, Little to no oversight, little to no accountability... How does this fit in with a free society?"
That makes no sense.
RC
(25,592 posts)Facts ignore you. Or you ignore the facts.
villager
(26,001 posts)...are the same forces, really, trying to lull us into the pervasive spying /data-gathering state, where we pre-emptively check our actions, in order to not "rock the boat."
It's what they've always wanted, and what many here are gleefully assenting to.
Or, in another insidiously ironic aspect to the post: Imagine what MLK or RFK would say about the extent of info-gathering on Americans...
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)Really? That's fucking lame, even for you!!!
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Speaking of "lame."
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)truebrit71
(20,805 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)This one's getting richer by the post!
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"*Now* you're upset with name-calling in one of your threads!?"
...directed at DUers, but in this case, which is not directed at a DUer, I'm saying it's not a rebuttal to the OP.
villager
(26,001 posts)...start calling other DUers "rightwing Paulians," etc., in the threads you start...
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"pro-NSA posters"?
Oh, the "anti-authoritarian" irony.
villager
(26,001 posts)Which really wasn't very hard to do.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)But rampant projection goes along with the glaring double-standard, que no?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)See what you've decided to focus on as you attempt to deflect from the OP.
villager
(26,001 posts)Your deflection -- routinely, predictably -- is to start using words like "deflection," etc.
Oh -- that and the snarky emoticons!
ProSense
(116,464 posts)It's all deflection.
villager
(26,001 posts)Indeed it is, oh yes.
That, and projection!
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)sad, very sad
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)I heard there would be cake!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)What are the actual dollar costs of Snowdens disclosures?
The United States, like any great power, is always going to have an intelligence operation, and some electronic surveillance is obligatory in the modern world. But, because of Snowdens disclosures, the government will almost certainly have to spend billions of dollars, and thousands of people will have to spend thousands of hours, reworking our procedures. This is all because a thirty-year-old self-appointed arbiter of propriety decided to break the law and disclose what he had sworn to protect. That judgmentin my viewwas not Snowdens to make. And it is simply grotesque that Snowden compares these thousands of government workersall doing their jobs to protect the United Statesto the Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg.
--
This was the Bingo for me in that piece. I haven't heard this part of the Snowden drama addressed before, the cost of what that little snotstick did. And GG with this Nazi thing? For the life of me, how can anyone take these fucking meglomaniac idiots seriously.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)He is still butt hurt from Greenwald's pimp slapping on national television. I think he is an asset of the security services.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Response to ProSense (Original post)
warrprayer This message was self-deleted by its author.