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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsArticle: Why Obama shouldn’t start crowing over jobless numbers
"Not only has new job creation not kept up with population growth over the last several months, but the U.S. population has been inflated by the federal government's policy of inviting about 1 million legal immigrants annually and issuing work permits to them. Today, there are several competing bills on Capitol Hill that would significantly increase the numbers of non-immigrant workers who arrive on H-1B visas or, worse yet, eliminate the existing cap"
http://www.lodinews.com/opinion/columnists/joe_guzzardi/article_de32683b-4258-5b61-b675-e810fa520300.html
DCBob
(24,689 posts)flexnor
(392 posts)Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Not concerned, are you?
flexnor
(392 posts)although the right wing does have their own similar proposals
"Thats why the President supports legislative measures that would attract and retain immigrants who create jobs and boost competitiveness here in the U.S. including "stapling" green cards to the diplomas of certain foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields " (i guess his reaction to the video was 'gosh, that looks kind of inconvinient for the employers, a stapler would be so much easier')
" During the Q&A session, callers raised many concerns regarding F-1 and other visas targeted for highly skilled immigrants. Among these was a question regarding the possibility of extending employment authorization to certain spouses of H-1B visa holders who are awaiting the adjudication of green card applications. We were especially pleased to inform the callers that the Department of Homeland Security had announced just the day beforeas part of the One Year Anniversary of the White House Startup Initiative that they will be addressing this very issue through regulatory reforms. "
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/02/02/conversation-we-people-about-immigration-policy
DCBob
(24,689 posts)and everything to do with attempting to discredit the President by any means necessary.
flexnor
(392 posts)and that was the point of the link to the white house press release
FYI, I do not say nor have I ever said that Bush, McCain or anyone in the current GOP clown car would be any better on this issue. But as a 4th generation democrat (yes, it's true), i do expect the president of either party not to dillute the labor market in the worst recession since the great depression, when the abuses of such dillution against american workers is so clearly documented - see below if you have any question about that
DCBob
(24,689 posts)There are pros and cons of what the WH is proposing regarding the issue of immigrant work visas but it has nothing to do with the improvement in jobs since the President took office.
If you want to discuss that issue I would recommend starting another thread.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)His OP outlines the fact that job growth isn't keeping up with population growth and the fact that we're importing people to do jobs that Americans can do. The two are related. The latter is contributing to the former. It's all in the OP. The video only strengthens his point.
You're just grasping for straws here. Flexnor is 100% right. Flawless, no less.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)These are proposed changes and reforms..
"announced a series of administrative reforms which will be completed in the future. These reforms reflect the Administration's continuing commitment to attracting and retaining highly-skilled immigrants. These efforts are critical to continuing our economic recovery and encouraging job creation."
http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/fact-sheets/20120131-dhs-retain-highly-skilled-immigrants.shtm
This has nothing to do with the improvement in jobs since the President took office which is what the original OP was about. There are pros and cons to these new reforms and one could argue it could actually help the job situation here by making us more competitive in high-tech business. Stealing the best talent from the rest of the work has been one of the reasons the US is so advanced.
Flexnor appears to be grasping for something negative or controversial to write about.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)DISASTER.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)That graph clearly shows the disaster occured prior to Obama taking office and we are now on the upturn since he took office.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)it will only take us 20 years to get back to pre-recession levels of unemployment. Brilliant!
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Its shows decline from peak.. that peak was during the Bush/Cheney regime when the economy was built on a bogus real estate investment ponzi scheme. Those jobs numbers were artificially high then. Yes, it will take a long to recover, I doubt 20 years, but several years for sure.. as would be expected given the situation.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)Bob is my first enrollee.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)This is not just a political debate; there are millions upon millions of people out there who simply can't find any work or full-time work sufficient to live.
That graph is a political graph, but there are all these other graphs published by the government that show what is actually happening, such as:
It is not as if Democrats or liberals can afford to ignore this data. Income inequality is mostly growing because we just don't have jobs for people - that's the primary method by which individuals raise incomes and net wealth. The US did not suddenly turn into a nation of lazy slackers. If residents could find jobs they wouldn't be on food stamps. If we seriously want to do anything about our problems, we have to grapple with these stats. We have to talk about them. We have to propose plans to deal with them.
Everyone who has looked for work fruitlessly knows the truth in their bones - this is a very bad employment market and we have not yet achieved escape velocity to generate a consistent cycle of improvement. The Fed keeps stating this. The official stats bear the Fed out. And most importantly, every family with members out looking for work knows about the reality.
We cannot let ourselves be trapped into a spin cycle that betrays the fundamental interests of the American population. We have to tell the truth because otherwise we will not be a political party worth the nation's votes.
Our current administration did not create this problem, but if the current administration refuses to admit that this problem exists, or tries to ignore this problem in the current election cycle, the Democratic party will be hugely weakened.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)I have not heard anything like that. Only that we are finally making some progress in the right direction. Whats wrong with that? On the other hand, the RWingers would have us believe all is hopeless and we are on the verge of economic collapse.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)But unfortunately there are a bunch of political spinsters who make a living off making a case. The problem is that many of them are quite disconnected from reality, and so they really believe that the situation has improved far more than it has.
So what do we get out of that? Unrealistic DC proposals to cut needed welfare schemes such as unemployment and food stamps and rent subsidies and heat subsidies (no, I DON'T think "welfare" is a dirty word) because we are implicitly contributing to the right's meme of lazy slacker syndrome.
This is very injurious to the collective welfare. It distorts public policy. It distorts public perceptions. And in the long run, it makes the people lose confidence in their government.
I'm going to repost one graph and a couple more breaking down employment levels by age. No one should be talking about an improving situation, because the situation is not improving. This is an absolute LEVEL (number of people working) for the age ranges listed. This is your core employment. This level is not population adjusted. This graph tells a tragic tale and explains why we are seeing the social needs we are seeing:
Yeah, verily, for this is like unto it:
These two levels are back to 1990s levels. That means although this group of the population has not dropped, many of these people aren't working any more. They haven't retired. Many of the younger ones are in school, where they are racking up huge student loans, because they can't get jobs. However the 35-44 ages are getting hit the worst.
Bob, the terrifying reality is that most of the apparent improvement in jobs comes from those who are drawing SS and still working (to make a living):
Where do you see any real improvement in this data? There's a slight uptick at the end of the lower age ranges that provides a hint that we may be on the right path, but that's about it. In fact, throughout the course of this "recovery" these most fundamental measures of employment strength have trended down so far. This explains EVERYTHING about what we are experiencing in the country.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)The "real improvement" is clear even in those graphs. What you call a "slight uptick" represents a significant change in the dynamics of the job situation. We are heading in the right direction but when we have gone so far down the hole it just going to take a long time to fight our way back out. I wish the President and the Democrats could implement more jobs creating programs but the Republican controlled House will simply kill any proposal like that.
flexnor
(392 posts)"Jennifer Wedel of Fort Worth asked why the government continues "to issue and extend H-1B visas when there are tons of Americans just like my husband with no job?"
She was persistent and at one point broke in on the president as he gave a response, to ask: "Why do you think the H-1B program is so popular with corporations?"
After learning that Darin Wedel is a semiconductor engineer, Obama said that "the word we're getting is that somebody in that kind of high-tech field, that kind of engineer, should be able to find something right away"
from computerworld
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9223975/Engineer_s_wife_ferocious_in_Obama_Q_A_on_H_1Bs
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9224088/Obama_s_H_1B_answer_in_forum_may_haunt_him_
flexnor
(392 posts)one day, on a sweatshop project (also known as a 'death march' in the industry), i was being considered for management in one of the 'big 4' accounting/consulting firms. A partner was showing me the ropes on how projects are scheduled, showing me how much more profitablable projects were with heavy overtime
why? because after hour 40, people are working for FREE!!!! (salaried 'exempt' ie, totally unpaid overtime) I had always suspected that, and chalked it up to 'negative attitude' on my part, but now that suspicion came directly from top management as training.
I had ofter worked 70 plus hour weeks, one week working 100 - 60 hours unpaid overtime in a single week! And if I had walked, by career would have been destroyed on the spot. What is the traditional term for forced unpaid work?
Naturally such a labor model is unballanced - people are not going pay to study for 4 years in a real hard major instead of working for wages, to take a job where they end up working for minimum wage some weeks (like i did that 100 hour week, when you average my pay across 100 hours)
These were classic labor abuses, the kid of stuff that created unions in the first place. I really felt at the time, that i was a kindred spirit of the guys in the 1930s that created them in response to the treatment they were getting.
Naturally supply and demand would take care of the problem, tech has endless obscolecense, and my loyalty to that firm vaporized in 2 seconds during that training. But tech found a way to keep that labor model up and running - massive immigration in an indentured servent labor model - the H-1b visa. It was already in place, but the solution was to jack it up to the unbeleivale level of 195,000 PER YEAR!.. That's the size of a medium sized midwestern metro, every man woman child, infant, senior in the nursing home, into tech every year.
And my party sold me out - the bills to raise H-1b was pushed by GOP, but signed by clinton.
I kept hearing excuses for it, but after the damage was done and well known, including the realease of that immigration lawyer video, comes this youtube
she's addressing the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) 2007 Global Alumni Conference -- Santa Clara, California, July 6, 2007. TWO MONTHS after the release of the immigration lawyer vid
anyone see someone forcing her to say that?!?!
it's a heck of a lot easier to say 'you're a racist/xenophobe' than it is to say 'we've got to ween ourselves off those tech contributions, and get back to our traditional principals of supporting the legitimate interests of working people'
so the economy is limping along instead of crashing - big whoop, one would at least hope that after showering wall street with one trillion of no strings attached 'sugar' from a fed reserve fox in the treasury dept chicken coop
DCBob
(24,689 posts)has been the norm for professionals and management level employees. Thats why they are typically paid more than hourly employees.
I dont like the H1-B program either. It has often been used to simply get cheaper programmers and engineers. It has impacted me personally since I am in the computer tech/IT field. However, we shouldn't eliminate it entirely. One of the reasons we are so advanced in IT and computer technology in this country is because we have "stolen" the world's best and brightest.
flexnor
(392 posts)(first of all, thank you for reading what i wrote, and with your background understanding that i was telling the truth)
it all comes down to the definition of 'norm' doesnt it
once upon a time, there was somewhat of a 'gentlemans agreement' about salaried employment. you work 'what it takes' to 'get your work done', and you dont 'punch in, punch out'
you need to run an errand, you do, they dont dock your pay for the minutes you're gone, you need to work a few extra hours at crunch time, you dont file for overtime 'you dont abuse it, we dont abuse it'
but the day i was told that overtime was deliberately scheduled for profitability, that 'gentlemen's agreement' was broken - and 'big 4' labor standards have become the norm everywhere, as i expected they would. The 40 hour workweek was actually intended to be a maximum, now it's a MINIMUM, and the only thing that stops at 40 hours is the pay
I think we should do away with the 40 work week, if all it really means is 'slavery begins at hour 41'
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Its up to the employee. I dont see a problem with that.
flexnor
(392 posts)in post 48, you say 'Working more than 40 hours a week has been the norn'
then in this post (52) you say 'In most companies you are not required to work 40+ hours/week, it's up to the employee'
which is it?
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Its not required but most do it anyway. Its not big deal to work a few hours over 40.
flexnor
(392 posts)'Its not big deal to work a few hours over 40.'
no, it's not - in fact, as a contractor, i didnt bill overtime until hour 50
but what i'm talking about, is working WAY over 50
'it's the norm, but not required' is a very disingenuous statement
'it's required', period
Response to flexnor (Reply #58)
Post removed
Frances
(8,547 posts)That was George W. Bush's temperament
flexnor
(392 posts)this intractable recession is a result of outsourcing our manufacturing, and then glutting the remaining labor market, then pumpting up a phoney housing bubble to cover up the lost income with false wealth
these problems will not go away until the underlying problems are honestly addressed
BumRushDaShow
(129,440 posts)Certainly they can't have disappeared out of a DU discussion again?
flexnor
(392 posts)"Thats why the President supports legislative measures that would attract and retain immigrants who create jobs and boost competitiveness here in the U.S. including "stapling" green cards to the diplomas of certain foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields " (i guess his reaction to the video was 'gosh, that looks kind of inconvinient for the employers, a stapler would be so much easier')
and if someone if applying for a green card, hey, give their spouse a job too!
" During the Q&A session, callers raised many concerns regarding F-1 and other visas targeted for highly skilled immigrants. Among these was a question regarding the possibility of extending employment authorization to certain spouses of H-1B visa holders who are awaiting the adjudication of green card applications. We were especially pleased to inform the callers that the Department of Homeland Security had announced just the day beforeas part of the One Year Anniversary of the White House Startup Initiative that they will be addressing this very issue through regulatory reforms. "
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/02/02/conversation-we-people-about-immigration-policy
BumRushDaShow
(129,440 posts)has nothing to do with "outsourcing" and "diluting" a labor market.
Ironically, it sounds more like the WW2/post-WW2 grab of an "Einstein" or a "von Braun" from a competitor nation. This country has always done this and always takes credit for the invention.
On the other hand, the teabaggers, their congressional henchmen, and the 1%, want to outsource the manufacturing and insource immigrant cheap labor to replace the slaves that used to do this work a century and a half ago. These are 2 different things.
flexnor
(392 posts)the the proposal cited above, he's talking about 'stapling' green cards to EVERY 'STEM' degree
it's absurd to compare that to 'operation paperclip', obtaining the surrender to Werner von Braun, the leading rocket scientist of the world, proven creator of the V2 rocket, at the beginning of a cold war and arms race with the soviets
besides, there have always been 'O' visas for exceptional individuals like Einstein and Von Braun
nice try
BumRushDaShow
(129,440 posts)that is full of hyperbole and that doesn't support your argument nor the link that you have hung your hat on. I.e., you are arguing about the larger workforce and the link is not discussing that.
The outsourcing (to other countries outside of the U.S.) of the U.S. labor market, which has the most impact on employment here in the U.S. (whether for "Call Centers" for almost every customer-based service), or manufacturing, or even farming, is something fed by rewarding corporations with subsidies and allowing them to profit from the cheap labor, and that is a Congressional issue to correct. This is what affects the largest numbers of jobs.
Alternately, the case that the link is covering is along the lines of examples where you have one of the Google co-founders (Sergey Brin) not U.S. born, but whose family did immigrate here, and became a citizen, and he contributed to the technology of the U.S.. Similarly, co-Facebook creator Eduardo P. Saverin, who was born in Brazil, also became a naturalized U.S. citizen. Jerry Yang, the recently dismissed co-creator of Yahoo, was born in Taiwan. And on and on. These folks along with their U.S. born compatriots, helped to bring about some innovative technological advances under the flag of the U.S.
The U.S. has always attempted to cannibalize the "best and brightest" from around the world to claim as its own. It's the nature of this nation. But this is different from the wholesale "globalization" of goods and services where the U.S. has devolved from using its own natural resources to make goods for export, to importing natural resources to make goods, to doing neither, yet expecting some "market-based" economy to survive on "service jobs" (essentially servicing the rich).
Similarly, the dawn of the tech era brought about a dirth of U.S.-born trained and working in the tech fields, who are now being displaced by corporations "importing" the tiny % of the largest Asian countries who are willing to work for lower wages, and I agree that this practice is quite egregious. However I think the issue at that link is more along the lines of bringing back the days of a "Bell Labs" or a "Palo Alto" (PARC/Xerox), etc., where colleges/universities (e.g., MIT, RIT, CIT) partnered with corporations to come with the next big breakthrough that could produce a product of benefit.
flexnor
(392 posts)it's hard to imagine, that prior to facebook, the only thing available to people was MySpace
and that prior to yahoo and google, people had to use alta vista or lycos!
imagine how different that must have been, having to survive on only those sites created by citizens!
there's no way that other citizens would have come up with a similar, more popular version!
that kind of innovation can only come from immigrants!
BumRushDaShow
(129,440 posts)and my father worked in the field since 1955 as a COBOL programmer. Seems what I wrote just blew right over your head. But I suppose when one has a weak argument in the first place, it's not surprising.
flexnor
(392 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)And underemployment. When our economy is this bad I think all immigration except family, students or political asylum cases.
Even minimum wage jobs are tough for our young people to find
Once the economy turns around open it back up to normal levels.
saras
(6,670 posts)and the unemployment rate will triple.
I could round up, in a day, a hundred people who are NOT officially unemployed, but would be looking for "jobs" eighty hours a week if they had any evidence that there were a significant number of family-wage jobs without oppressive corporate working conditions.
flexnor
(392 posts)all kind of overhead supply out there
"that's exactly right, labor participation rate at a multi-year low all kind of overhead supply out there"
...should read this: The impact of changes in the participation rate on the unemployment rate
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002284200
earthside
(6,960 posts)I think there is a lot of pent-up demand ... but working and middle class Americans are very much suffering from declining incomes.
Gasoline, tuitions, health care, fees, food ... everything is going up in price and wages are barely moving to keep up. I'd like to know what the REAL inflation rate is, it is certainly double whatever the 'official' statistics indicate.
My instincts tell me that the Obama administration and Bernanke will do all they can to pump-up the economy before the November elections. But they may not succeed because there is still just too much debt, too much military spending, too few jobs, and too many folks who may start looking for work again (heaven help us if an 'improving' economy brings back a flood of illegal immigrant across the border again).
'Crow' probably overstates the case, but my advice to Pres. Obama and the Democrats would be to down-play what looks like 'good' news. If it is it is and voters will know it -- but if this is just another short-lived 'green shoot', well, if Obama then still talks like things are getting better that will be devastating.
flexnor
(392 posts)stagflation - inflation without growth
what most workers are getting from the stimulus is inflation
Rex
(65,616 posts)Can't he at least smile a little bit? Is that too much?
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)that there is a very long way to go, and he is more than aware of the numbers needed to meet population growth. So enough of the purist scare headlines.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)That if Dems or liberals fall into the trap of trying to pretend that we don't have this problem, it will be the Democratic politicians who ultimately pay the price.
Because people know. They know what's going on. The grandparents know that the grandkids are in trouble, the parents know that their kids are having trouble finding work that will pay a living wage (much less provide benefits), too many children are growing up in homes in which parents are desperately struggling financially, etc.
Swede
(33,282 posts)Arkana
(24,347 posts)But, I suppose everyone sees what they want to see.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,240 posts)"Crowing"? Really?
flexnor
(392 posts)but the content of the article is relevant, the labor market is still being dilluted
spanone
(135,873 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)If you look at his other articles, you'd dismiss him quickly.
flexnor
(392 posts)labeling anyone bothered by massive corporate labor dillution as 'anti-immigrant' is just modern McCarthyism
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)His rather excessive fear of immigrants is on open display in those articles.
flexnor
(392 posts)you felt was untrue, and why ('he's a bad man and says bad things' doe NOT count as an intelligent response)
one thing that's really starting to bug me about this party, is that is it becoming much less about ideas and much more about labels and personalities
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And after doing so ... it was clear to me that the author has a very specific agenda.
Now, if I had posted the OP, thus drawing attention to the article, I would feel a special need to not only post the article, but provide my detailed commentary on it, pro or con. You did not do so.
I did not post the OP, I simply read it. And when I read the article, and then others by this same author, I found his anti-immigrant agenda clearly apparent. And I said so. I do not feel any obligation beyond that. Just as you felt no obligation to provide your own assessment in the original OP.
Others should feel free to read the article posted, and others by the same author, as they see fit.
And if you think he makes critical points in this article, or in the others, you should fell free to post those. After all, you posted the OP, and yet included no analysis of your own.
And yet oddly you would demand that I provide a deeper analysis of this and the other articles from the same author.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,240 posts)Welcome to party politics. The problem is, some of the "personalities" you've chosen to drag into a forum that supports "Democrats". You do know that this is a message board, and not the Democratic Party, right?
I'm a Democrat, through & through, and make no apologies for it. If you're not into "labels", then I have a couple of anti-dem (supposedly liberal) site suggestions you might wanna check out.
Last edited Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:14 PM - Edit history (1)
"one thing that's really starting to bug me about this party, is that is it becoming much less about ideas and much more about labels and personalities"
...that why you're trying to introduce the ideas of racists Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul?
The title of the OP is whack.
flexnor
(392 posts)that the thread where i mentioned buchanan and paul was in using their support to undermine neocon support for a war with iran among republicans, with a goal of stopping a disasterous war against iran (in which, by the way, minorities and poor would take a disproporationate share of the casualties?)
that's more than a small detail, but nice try with the 'out of context' tactic
that the thread where i mentioned buchanan and paul was in using their support to undermine neocon support for a war with iran among republicans, with a goal of stopping a disasterous war against iran (in which, by the way, minorities and poor would take a disproporationate share of the casualties?)
that's more than a small detail, but nice try with the 'out of context' tactic
...I didn't forget because it's completely irrelevant. Might as well point out that David Duke is opposed to war.
'Might as well point out that David Duke is opposed to war. '
how would you know?
(and if David Duke said 'looks like rain today', would umbrellas then become 'a racist symbol' that day?)
"how would you know?"
...you've only been here a month. I'll find the links.
flexnor
(392 posts)i dont follow guys like david duke
never thought he had any importance
i'll leave it to you to enlighten me on David Duke's views
i dont follow guys like david duke
never thought he had any importance
i'll leave it to you to enlighten me on David Duke's views
...OK. So you do know that Buchanan was fired because of his racist views, right?
Enlightenment:
Ron Paul will not only get the traditional conservative right. Hell get the far right, and hell get a lot of support from all across the political spectrum who think the Patriot Act, torture and the Iraq War are wrong and un-Constitutional.
http://www.davidduke.com/?p=25255
http://www.davidduke.com/?p=26746
Have I mentioned Ron Paul isn't anti-war?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100210182
Ron Paul isn't anti-defense spending, he's anti-everything else
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002155700
2007: Paul keeps donation from white supremacist
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22331091/ns/politics-decision_08/t/paul-keeps-donation-white-supremacist/#.TvsxyyNWoqQ
Ron Paul Was Implicated In Failed White Supremacist Island Invasion
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002192767#post14
Ron Paul Endorsed by David Duke, Linked to the John Birch Society
http://lgbtpov.frontiersla.com/2011/12/30/ron-paul-endorsed-by-david-duke-linked-to-the-john-birch-society/
Anonymous Reveals Close Ties Between Ron Paul And Neo-Nazis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002304213
Ron Paul's Vision For a Free Society Based on Liberty
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002176020
WaPo: Ron Paul Signed Off On Racist Newsletters
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002229012
flexnor
(392 posts)and while i disagree with all of his corporate liberatarianism, and would NOT vote for him, there is one thing he really did add to the debates - he put a control-alt-delete on the echo chamber of 'one-up' war mongering amongst a bunch of pin-heads in the GOP primary clown car
Buchanan does the same thing, he can give cover to a republican in a read state to vote against an iran war authorization, that nobody else can give him/her in the next election
Again, I ask you, if David Duke said 'it looks like rain today' (in agreement with the national weather service), would umbrellas be a racist symbol that day'?, would it then be The Nationalist Weather Service'?
To quote John F. Kennedy: from the movie 13 days "You know, there's something immoral about abandoning your own judgement."
that's what you do when you worry too much about who thinks what, and quit thinking for yourself about what's right'
(and my comments about paul and buchanan were about the pragmatic gain of bi-partisan support against a disasterous war)
[this thread is getting off topic]
ProSense
(116,464 posts)and while i disagree with all of his corporate liberatarianism, and would NOT vote for him, there is one thing he really did add to the debates - he put a control-alt-delete on the echo chamber of 'one-up' war mongering amongst a bunch of pin-heads in the GOP primary clown car
Buchanan does the same thing, he can give cover to a republican in a read state to vote against an iran war authorization, that nobody else can give him/her in the next election
...I don't buy into that spin. It reeks of an excuse to push racists.
flexnor
(392 posts)you said
"...I don't buy into that spin. It reeks of an excuse to push racists."
ProSense
(116,464 posts)I mean, you're the one pushing racists. That requires a special kind of blinders.
flexnor
(392 posts)that's why the key to defeating an Iran war resolution would be to provide a 'conservative' anti-war voice for cover to get republican votes - that's what would have swung the vote against the war - think what this vote cost the country
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution
as Pub.L. 107-243 by President Bush on October 16, 2002.
United States House of Representatives
Party Ayes Nays PRES No Vote
Republican 215 6 0 2
Democratic 82 126 0 1
Independent 0 1 0 0
TOTALS 297 133 0 3
126 (61%) of 208 Democratic Representatives voted against the resolution.
6 (<3%) of 223 Republican Representatives voted against the resolution: Reps. Duncan (R-TN), Hostettler (R-IN), Houghton (R-NY), Leach (R-IA), Morella (R-MD), Paul (R-TX).
The only Independent Representative voted against the resolution: Rep. Sanders (I-VT)
Reps. Ortiz (D-TX), Roukema (R-NJ), and Stump (R-AZ) did not vote on the resolution.
United States Senate
Party Ayes Nays No Vote
Republican 48 1 0
Democratic 29 21 0
Independent 0 1 0
TOTALS 77 23 0
21 (42%) of 50 Democratic senators voted against the resolution: Sens. Akaka (D-HI), Bingaman (D-NM), Boxer (D-CA), Byrd (D-WV), Conrad (D-ND), Corzine (D-NJ), Dayton (D-MN), Durbin (D-IL), Feingold (D-WI), Graham (D-FL), Inouye (D-HI), Kennedy (D-MA), Leahy (D-VT), Levin (D-MI), Mikulski (D-MD), Murray (D-WA), Reed (D-RI), Sarbanes (D-MD), Stabenow (D-MI), Wellstone (D-MN), and Wyden (D-OR).
1 (2%) of 49 Republican senators voted against the resolution: Sen. Chafee (R-RI).
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)should take that video seriously?
Or is it factually wrong?
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Even if he isnt his attitude clearly mirrors one.