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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhite House Picks Panel to Review NSA Programs
A group of veteran security experts and former White House officials has been selected to conduct a full review of U.S. surveillance programs and other secret government efforts disclosed over recent months, ABC News has learned.
The recent acting head of the CIA, Michael Morrell, will be among what President Obama called a high-level group of outside experts scrutinizing the controversial programs.
Joining Morrell on the panel will be former White House officials Richard Clarke, Cass Sunstein and Peter Swire. An announcement is expected Thursday, a source with knowledge of the matter told ABC News Jon Karl.
The group will consider how we can maintain the trust of the people [and] how we can make sure that there absolutely is no abuse, President Obama said two weeks ago when announcing the groups formation, without identifying who would be on the panel.
The identities of the panelists have been a topic of speculation online, raising questions over whether the group would truly be independent in its review. The White House has insisted the group has full independence.
The president made clear that in addition to looking at potential abuses by the program the group will also assess whether the U.S. government appropriately accounts for insider threats and unauthorized disclosures.
[Recent] technological advances have brought with them both great opportunities and significant risks for our intelligence community, President Obama said.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/08/white-house-picks-panel-to-review-nsa-programs/
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)He will make sure that it gets fixed.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Cass Sunstein?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Swire's most recent project was the W3Cs DNT ("do not track" standard, being rolled out currently.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-independent advocates to cognitively infiltrate online groups and websites as well as other activist groups which advocate views that Sunstein deems false conspiracy theories about the Government.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)this, and infiltrating them pretending to be ordinary members, to destroy what he calls 'conspiracy theories'.
He wrote the paper on this in 2008 and when it was revealed what his thinking on this was, it created huge outrage, especially among Democrats.
What he was advocating, when people now wonder if there are such infiltrators on political forums, THEY are called CTs. It's ironic, he puts it out in the open, then when people take him at his word, that this is a great idea, to have Government Agents infiltrating political forums pretending to be just another member, and wonder if it has been implemented, THEY are the CTS.
This is a link to the paper he wrote http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585
I haven't downloaded it, but the relevant paragraph is around page 217 or so, from what I have seen.
And who gets to decide what is a CT and what is not? Government agents on the internet of course, according to Sunstein.
He has zero credibility on this issue. He is the fox sent to guard the henhouse, and I won't be surprised if there is huge objections to this choice. However they will be ignored, but the commission will have zero credibility so long as he is on it.
Oh, wait, you were serious? Sunstein of "infiltrate everything with propaganda Sunstein", Sunstein?
Dear God. "We're going to make sure that in the future, we tell you better lies!"
jmowreader
(50,565 posts)I'd like to see Bobby Inman (the Director of NSA during the Carter Administration who came down hard on Shrub's warrantless wiretapping shit), Paul Menoher (a retired Chief of Staff of the Army for Intelligence, and a good SIGINTer), John Burns (a retired Chief of Army SIGINT, and the commander of several SIGINT units) or Raymond McKnight (a retired sergeant major of the Intelligence and Security Command, a trained morse interceptor, and the worst asshole to ever don an Army uniform) on this panel. If you're going to send someone into a house to kill the cockroaches, it helps if he knows what a cockroach looks like.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Seems like a bad idea to leave them out
jmowreader
(50,565 posts)Since you used the term Old Crow it seems you're a SIGINTer...you ever meet the Little Mean Guy? The three-star general from USAREUR headquarters who McKnight told to get a haircut sure the fuck did.
(Okay, I better explain: When the LMG was sergeant major of Field Station Berlin, his hobby was going to the PX on Saturdays and sending all the people he thought were lookin' shaggy over to the barbershop. And if he sent you to get a haircut, you had best come back and show it to him because he would track you down. Anyway, this asshole was walking through Trumanplatz one day and sent someone who turned out to be a lieutenant general from US Army Europe headquarters to the barbershop. The general asked the LMG if LMG "knew who he was." LMG said something like, "yeah, you're a soldier who needs a haircut. Go get one." EVERYONE in Berlin was scared of this fucker, including the US Commander Berlin and USCOB was a two-star general. When LMG went back to the States, a huge spontaneous celebration broke out in units all over town. I will admit that McKnight is the Paul Bunyan of assholes in that the stories about him keep getting wilder and more implausible, but here's one that's absolutely true: Every year, we had an inspection from the INSCOM inspector general team, and one year McKnight came to do a courtesy preinspection a month before the scheduled actual inspection...he saw something that pissed him off, flew back home to Fort Belvoir and sent the real inspectors three days later. Turns out whatever McKnight didn't like didn't bother the inspection team because we passed with flying colors.)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I enlisted in the late 90s when signals was everybody's red-headed stepchild (though he wrote an amazingly prescient paper around that time I think for AOC).
jmowreader
(50,565 posts)That is, unless someone shot the bastard.
This is DEFINITELY before your time, but there used to be an SMA named Glenn Morrell. Sergeant Major Morrell was bald as a billiard ball so, naturally, he picked up the nickname Kojak.
When Kojak Morrell was getting ready to retire, there was a huge debate about who should replace him. (The Army finally decided on the US Forces Korea sergeant major.) Some folks thought they should pick a major-command guy, others thought a troop-command guy like a division or corps CSM. I thought they should have chosen McKnight, because the rest of the Army needs McKnight's stellar leadership...and after all, if INSCOM had to put up with the son-of-a-bitch all those years, why should the rest of the Army get off light?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)with people that flat out advocate propagandizing the American public. That's highly transparent.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)openly advocate to propagandize the American public.
Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
BootinUp
(47,197 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)noise
(2,392 posts)This is all about looking forward. It would be too divisive to hold anyone accountable. After all we are talking about well intended abuse of power. Everyone is at fault including the public that demanded to be kept safe at all cost. Rehashing the past will only distract the intelligence community from protecting the Homeland.
I'm sure I left out a few talking points.
ArsSkeptica
(38 posts)Thought you might appreciate this slapdash analysis of ABC's really feeble reportage...
Obamas picks for outsider NSA review looks like the fix is in
http://scholarsandrogues.com/2013/08/21/obamas-picks-for-outsider-nsa-review-looks-like-the-fix-is-in/
By all means, feel free to set me straight where I've gone wrong. I won't learn a damned thing if I only drink my own Kool-Aid.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)They both have extensive histories advocating for privacy.
ArsSkeptica
(38 posts)From the cursory digging I did, I actually think Swire stands to make an excellent contribution to the panel. On the other hand, I've become so distrustful of this administration (vote for Obama in '08, but not again in '12), that I have to wonder if his inclusion is just for appearances' sake. Considering Swire is a co-signer of an amicus brief to SCOTUS on the subject of NSA and Verizon, I'm going to hold out hope in his case.
Sunstein, on the other hand? His track record on privacy might be good, but his positions on other issues leave me feeling less than enthused.
As much as anything, I'm simply dismayed at ABC's reporting. "Facts and just the facts" is nice, but the omissions are rather glaring, imo.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Sunstein is a horrible pick. This is the man that advocates propaganda. Trust people that tell you they are going to lie. Uh, yeah.
pacalo
(24,721 posts)silvershadow
(10,336 posts)MgtPA
(1,022 posts)SunSeeker
(51,726 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The interpretation of federal law should be made not by judges but by the beliefs and commitments of the U.S. president and those around him, according to Sunstein. "There is no reason to believe that in the face of statutory ambiguity, the meaning of federal law should be settled by the inclinations and predispositions of federal judges. The outcome should instead depend on the commitments and beliefs of the President and those who operate under him," argued Sunstein.[18]
Sunstein (along with his coauthor Richard Thaler) has elaborated the theory of libertarian paternalism. In arguing for this theory, he counsels thinkers/academics/politicians to embrace the findings of behavioral economics as applied to law, maintaining freedom of choice while also steering people's decisions in directions that will make their lives go better. With Thaler, he coined the term "choice architect."[19]
Military commissions
In 2002, at the height of controversy over Bush's creation of military commissions without Congressional approval, Sunstein stepped forward to insist, "Under existing law, President George W. Bush has the legal authority to use military commissions" and that "President Bush's choice stands on firm legal ground." Sunstein scorned as "ludicrous" an argument from law professor George P. Fletcher, who believed that the Supreme Court would find Bush's military commissions without any legal basis.[20]
First Amendment
In his book Democracy and the Problem of Free Speech Sunstein says there is a need to reformulate First Amendment law. He thinks that the current formulation, based on Justice Holmes' conception of free speech as a marketplace disserves the aspirations of those who wrote Americas founding document.[21] The purpose of this reformulation would be to reinvigorate processes of democratic deliberation, by ensuring greater attention to public issues and greater diversity of views.[22] He is concerned by the present situation in which like-minded people speak or listen mostly to one another,[23] and thinks that in light of astonishing economic and technological changes, we must doubt whether, as interpreted, the constitutional guarantee of free speech is adequately serving democratic goals.[24] He proposes a New Deal for speech [that] would draw on Justice Brandeis' insistence on the role of free speech in promoting political deliberation and citizenship.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein
Here is Glenn Greenwald's take on Sunstein written way back in March 2010.
In 2002, at the height of controversy over Bushs creation of military commissions without Congressional approval, Sunstein stepped forward to insist that nder existing law, President George W. Bush has the legal authority to use military commissions and that President Bushs choice stands on firm legal ground. Sunstein scorned as ludicrous the argument from Law Professor George Fletcher that the Supreme Court would find Bushs military commissions without any legal basis. Four years later in its Hamdan ruling the Supreme Court, with Justice Stevens in the majority, held that Bush lacked the legal authority to create military commissions without approval from Congress, i.e., the Court (and Stevens) found Bush lacked exactly the legal authority which Sunstein vehemently insisted he possessed. Had Sunstein been on the Court then instead of Stevens, that decision presumably would have come out the opposite way: in favor of Bushs sweeping claims of executive authority.
Worse still, in 2005, Sunstein became the hero of the Bush-following Right when, in the wake of revelations that the Bush administration was illegally eavesdropping on Americans, he quickly proclaimed that Bush was within his legal rights to spy without warrants in violation of FISA. Sunstein defended Bushs NSA program by embracing the two extremist arguments at the core of Bush/Cheney lawlessness: that (1) the AUMF silently authorized warrantless eavesdropping in violation of FISA and, worse, (2) the President may have a plausible claim that Article II inherently authorizes warrantless eavesdropping regardless of what a statute says.
http://www.salon.com/2010/03/26/court_3/
Since Sunstein may have a personal reason to disagree with Greenwald after Greenwald's scathing comments, I think that Sunstein is a very poor choice for this commission, a very poor choice indeed.
Swire is maybe kind of middle of the road on internet privacy. Here is an article on him. He isn't a strong advocate for privacy, but sounds more reasonable than Sunstein.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/technology/mediator-appointed-in-do-not-track-efforts.html?_r=0
Not much independence on that commission in my view.
More on Swire's association with the organization, "Future of Privacy."
http://www.futureofprivacy.org/category/the-team/
Richard Clarke's comments on the Patriot Act and surveillance from 09/2011
Q: The Patriot Act, has it worked, or was it overkill?
Clarke: A lot of people react negatively to the Patriot Act when the phrase is used because they associate things with the Patriot Act that frankly aren't in it, things that were abusive. And when you go back and look at the Patriot Act none of those things were justified by the act. There were a few minor things that needed adjustment in it. But overall I think it did help break down the wall between the FBI people working on criminal cases and the FBI people who were working on intelligence cases. That so-called Chinese wall that existed between the two was really detrimental.
So, have there been any abuses or overstepping of bounds?
Clarke: I haven't seen one. That's not to say there hasn't been any. I am aware there are some provisions where it was never specified that there had to be a terrorism-related predicate, and that's a tweak that should be made. There are some cases where, for example, national security letters were signed out originally by FBI officers who were mid-level supervisors and that's been changed so you have to have a senior officer sign them out. So there were minor problems. But I'm not aware of any really major problems that resulted from the Patriot Act. That's not to say there weren't abuses but they weren't authorized by the Patriot Act.
Do you think the Patriot Act should be amended to require a warrant for an agency to read someone's e-mail or track their location, say via cell phone GPS?
Clarke: Yes, I believe a warrant should be necessary for the government to access personal e-mail.
. . . .
So, what is the vision of the future for privacy and surveillance?
Clarke: I think we need to have in the federal government a civil liberties protection and privacy protection point in the White House. The 9/11 Commission recommended that and Congress authorized it. As far as I know President Obama has not even appointed the Civil Liberties Commission, unless I missed it. I think we need to have a bipartisan group that is reporting to the president that has top clearances and can see everything and have subpoena authority and can look at activity to see if anyone in the government is engaged in questionable activities that violate privacy rights or civil liberties. But we need a clear understanding first of what privacy rights are. In the U.S. those rights are not as clearly defined as they are in Europe, unfortunately. The European standard is that you have to opt in to data collection by commercial companies and the American standard is you have to opt out. So commercial companies know an enormous amount about you.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20108374-245/richard-clarke-on-patriot-act-wikileaks-privacy-q-a/
Morrell has been at the CIA for some time and may bear some responsibility for the mess the surveillance program seems to be in (I'm just guessing and don't know that is true) sounds a little paranoid, but sane enough from this very recent Wall Street Journal article:
WASHINGTONThe Central Intelligence Agency's second-in-command warned that Syria's volatile mix of al Qaeda extremism and civil war now poses the greatest threat to U.S. national security.
Michael Morell who, at the CIA may have had some input (but maybe says the risk is that the Syrian government, which possesses chemical and other advanced weapons, collapses and the country becomes al Qaeda's new haven, supplanting Pakistan.
. . . .
Rounding out Mr. Morell's list of threats are cyberattacks, because U.S. adversaries are working hard to develop attack capabilities. Cyberattacks that destroy networks in the U.S., he said, could come in the next few years. Cyberattacks are "the thing I worry most about in the long term," he said.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323420604578652330222498920.html
Also from a very recent article on Morell from the Huffington Post:
(excerpt from a letter from Morell on his resignation)
Whenever someone involved in the rough and tumble of Washington decides to move on, there is speculation in various quarters about the real reason. But when I say that it is time for my family, nothing could be more real than that.
From being the PDB briefer at the side of President Bush on that horrific day in September 2001 to being at President Obamas side as the United States brought Bin Ladin to justice in May 2011and all the ups and downs in betweenfew Americans have been as privileged as I have been to work at, and to represent, such an extraordinary organization.
. . . .
WASHINGTON CIA Deputy Director Michael Morell, who defended harsh interrogation techniques and was involved with the fallout after the attack on the diplomatic outpost in Benghazi, Libya, announced his retirement Wednesday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/12/michael-morell-resigns_n_3430155.html
There aren't any real defenders of civil liberties in that group. The closest is maybe Peter Swire, second closest Richard Clarke in my opinion based on my very, very superficial research in the past few minutes.
Looks like a whitewash in the making.
The emphasis will be on preventing terrorism, and that is good, but the approach is not going to be balanced enough from the point of view of protecting our privacy rights in my opinion. I sure hope that I am wrong. And I could well change my mind as I learn more about these individuals, but it looks to me like Obama has picked a commission to sell the program he has, maybe clean up a tiny bit just for looks, but it looks like the goal will be to sell the public on what will be a very superficial clean-up of the surveillance.
ALL surveillance needs to be ended, starting with private companies that snoop without first obtaining our permission. I want to be able to choose whether a company can send me e-mails or watch as I look at knitting or gardening stuff online. I do not want anyone reviewing or collecting or doing anything to my e-mails, not people in corporations, not people in foreign countries and not my own government. I don't have things to hide. It is just the principle of the matter. I have curtains on my window. I also wear clothing. It's not that I have something to hide. It's that I like to have privacy.
It's odd. The same government that will arrest you for indecent exposure if you walk out your door in the morning completely naked wants to look at your phone bill and your e-mail contacts list. Very odd. Maybe we should all pull an Anthony Weiner and just send ourselves e-mails with pictures of us wearing nothing at all. I'm joking of course, but it might put the folks on the commission on notice that we really object to what they are doing and that it makes no sense.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)I posted this story I didn't have time to research who was who on this panel.
Your post makes it worth
nominating just for the info.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Just by virtue that you are bringing facts into this conversation means you never really loved Obama and I suspect you harbor a lot of boxes in your garage.
Sunstein.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Frankly it's depressing. Especially Sunstein.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I want an open, adversarial process. This is the public's business.
RC
(25,592 posts)There, fixed it for ya.