don't ever change
and good point this is being exploited again as a diversion from the real debate

Chelsea Manning doesn't care what we call her here. In fact, I'd lay even odds she's never heard of Democratic Underground. My Charlie hasn't. He's 22 and lives in So. Cal.

So many more important issues, yet there must have been 50 Chelsea threads today.

What does that say?

to people as what they want to be called. it's like Obama and wingnuts calling him Barry, Hussein etc. of course Obama may not read this or care what he is called but the intention of those who refer to him as such things is disrespect.

what you mention is different since you have a personal relationship to your child.

but we don't have any personal relationship which might give us some consideration in how we refer to Chelsea.

so i don't have a problem if people still refer to her as him or bradley since that is what we are still so used to.

but that is different from just saying you don't care or to intentionally use something knowing the person would prefer you not.

Chelsea?

du where agenda wins over....hell..... discussion? I mean it is supposed to be a discussion board ......right?
here is my take
if you say manning we all know who you mean
so if you are the kind of person who does have a hard time with this
and some people do have a hard time with it bless their hearts
just say "manning" and let your better nature guide you

It's not necessarily an "agenda" and I get where it comes from. It's SUCH a sensitive issue and it's HARD for people to talk about.

She's my DAUGHTER to me. HE'S my SON to you. I can't even begin to explain the feelings that evokes in me.

The DAUGHTER part, I can't talk about. It's a part of my life that's gone. It's a part of my life that I've put away because the PARENT in me says my CHILD'S happiness and future is more important than my SHORT TERM satisfaction is.

What I have seen is people using male pronouns, or referering to her as a man, (rightly) taken to task.

As to your son, that relationship doesn't necessarily have to change - work it out with him. A friend of mine who is among the most insistent that people get her gender right is still "dad" to her daughter.

your situation and more about the debate in general
no matter how you feel about it using the last name should suffice
if you got grief for saying manning instead of Chelsea then someone was just being an ass about it
sorry that happened

but what seeing her wishes treated disrespectfully here say to trans* members of DU about how welcome trans* individuals are here - generally.

Just as an example, when members repeatedly insist insist that "he" isn't a woman until "he" has surgery (as at least three did all day yesterday), that tells my dear friend who has not had - and may never have - surgery that she isn't a woman either, that she's not good enough yet, that she may never be good enough - and, frankly, that was one of her biggest fears pre-transition. That she would never be accepted as a woman.

I've tried to stay away from most of these threads.

Some people here are seeing you as a RWer? Geez.

They're nuts.

hold onto your memories. I will say I find it disrespectful that you talk to everybody else as if he is still a she, but that is between you and your son. My daughter is bisexual. Before I knew she was bisexual I envisioned her marrying a man of course. Now I don't know if she will marry a man or a woman. That is different than what I envisioned before I knew she was bisexual but that doesn't mean I can't quickly adjust those visions. In fact out of respect for my daughter those visions changed instantaneously. Your situation is different because you have memories of a daughter. It's not like you can go back and change those memories and have her suddenly become a boy in your memories. In your memories of your past she should remain Allison. But your future memories should be of your son Charlie.

She is happily in love with a woman.

That's all I need to know.

others about him you call him Charlie. I thought you were saying that because he will always be Allison to you that you call her Allison in front of people.

Allison is who HE used to be.

Allison is who he is to me. TO ME.

It's hard to explain.

Charlie is who he to me to the world. Allison is who he is to me to me.

I don't think that's disrespectful. Allison doesn't escape my lips.

Children coming out as transgender is extremely difficult on families. especially parents, and many people have no conception of the impact if they never go through it. A lot of people seem to be primarily conscious of the feelings of transgender individual coming out, and this is good, but they neglect to consider the pain and loss that the parents often feel.

Charlie is very lucky to have you. I'm very sure he feels awful about hurting you, and respects and admires you for accommodating his wishes and identity, despite how you secretly relate to him as Allison.

He most likely feels it: the transgender people I know are generally very sensitive and empathic.

That is why it matters here. That is why Chelsea Manning should now be considered a female both in theory and actualization. She is a she and if you instead choose to deny that respect, you are acting as a sort of social erasure.

don't think she does anymore.

Not saying this is what you have to or should or will do with your child, it's just interesting to me to get a glimpse of how the accepting parent of a transgender child feels.

's, especially on the gender issue (though I have to admit, it's quite a distraction from the more important Manning topics we could be dealing with. You are a good Dad, and thank you for sharing part of your story.

I would do the same if my son came out as female. Maybe take a month or so off DU ? I can understand how the vitriol can get to you.

When I registered at DU I was a Dad with a Tomboy for a Daughter. No Worries...

Now I have the Son I always wanted. No worries.

I was lucky then; I'm luckier now.

Who needs lotteries?

May you always be well.

It's about the transgender person. My advice would be to treasure memories, live in the present, and not confuse the two. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but it ISN'T about you. "Who cares" about gender pronouns? The transgender person does just the same as you wouldn't want to be called the opposite gender. Think about what you're saying to yourself in your head. That's like you saying to me... I think of you like a girl so I'm going use the pronouns "she". (I am not, nor have I ever been, nor would I consider it in the future.) It's massively, stunningly disrespectful. While you may not intend on coming across as a bigot, to those who are transgender and those who know them, that is how you are coming across. Stunningly disrespectful and self-centered.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I introduce my SON as Charlie to people I know who don't know Charlie.

I address my SON as Charlie. At breakfast when Charlie comes to my house I ask CHARLIE if he'd like bacon with HIS eggs, even if it's just my Wife, Charlie, and myself.

WTF?

Take a breath. Get some sleep or something. Then give it another go.

It sounds like you've been a good dad and you said Charlie has found happiness. Good luck to you, your wife, and to Charlie.

stunningly disrespectful and self-centered. Mind boggling.


And your reading comprehension blows.

He addresses his son as Charlie. He introduces him as Charlie. When he opens his mouth in reference to his son, he uses Charlie. In every vocal, verbal, written context, it's Charlie. He. Him.

But that's not good enough? You need to crawl into his brain and alter the wiring until it is no longer "stunningly disrespectful" to remember him as Allison?

Wow.

My son is a 24 y/o named Chris. But in my mind's eye, he'll always be "baby kitofer", a little nickname we gave him when he was about a year old. The name would never escape my lips in any context, but it's what pops in when I think of him.

That OK with you?

Look in the mirror. OP sounds like a great, supportive Father.

you really can't speak on how easy or hard it is to completely eradicate private thoughts and personal memories. Outwardly, the OP respects the wishes of his son and that's the most important thing.

in dealing with a complicated part of life. I hope to keep reading your posts on many subjects.....

Must make Charlie feel horrible to see how much he hurt you just by being himself.

Hateful.

venue except his own mind.

That's not OK with you? Must he control his thoughts as well?

You respect your child's wishes--and that makes you a caring parent and a good person.

I agree with you that the way to discuss this issue is with respect. It isn't common, there are many people who will go through life never having to address this sort of thing, and who don't encounter it on a day-to-day basis. For them, it's a learning curve.

Calling people "bad" or "wrong" or "stupid" or "bigoted" because they aren't "there" yet--they haven't come to an understanding of the topic, doesn't foster that understanding. All it does is make people feel lousy.

OTOH, people who goad and bait, who double down and mock, well...they're coming from a different place entirely.

I'm in the "Educate, don't excoriate" crowd. I can also understand YOUR feelings, and I can't say I blame you one bit. You are the one who raised that child from an infant, and you're the one who loves that child better than most people in this world. No one can demand that you push your feelings and memories down, or ignore them, or pretend they aren't real. The only thing that matters is how you act, and you're doing the right thing.

The "wedge" shit is the province of a few usual suspects. The minute we see "How DARE you..." (hands rubbed together with glee) when the person being challenged is plainly operating from a lack of awareness, not malice, we know what the game is. Yet Another DU Food Fight....and they do get boring.

Very gutsy of you to pipe up--you have my admiration.

I think I get it. And, this is a topic I will continue to steer clear of...

You want us to know that when you participate in these topics and read these posts, you have a personal perspective that informs you. A perspective of a loving father who transitioned with his child. For you, it's bigger than pronouns, it's about relationships. Your heart is big enough for Allison and Charlie. And, although this is the same person, a parents mind doesn't have a switch that erases the old memories, but thankfully it does have a heart big enough to grow right along with your children and their decisions about how they choose to live their life.

Thank you for your post. I don't really have any experience with these issues. But, I can understand the love I have for my children and my desire to see them live their lives fully with me as their biggest advocate and protector, for as long as I can. Your post was thoughtful and educational. I will keep it in mind when I read these posts.

I've read your posts for many years, and while I don't always agree with your opinions, I believe that you are a sincere person. Your relationship with your family is far more important than what anonymous people say on a message board. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your son. That's what's important.

I have two sons. I love them forever, no matter what, and I can't imagine not supporting them. Sounds like you feel the same way about your son.

When I told my mom that I was gay and getting divorced because of it, she supported me 100%. So did my sister. I've never forgotten their unquestioning support. I've never stopped appreciating it, every single day. I know that your son feels the same way about you.

Interestingly, if your son is in love with a woman, then he's not gay. Instead of a gay daughter you have a straight son!

Thank you for being so open-- you sound like a great dad. Please don't leave DU.

had me nearly in tears. I, for one find your poignant account of your own experience brimming with love for your son and respect for him and his choices.


I have to admit that I followed the evolution of Chaz Bono and his mother, Cher's acceptance with great interest over the years. For those of us who remember that beautiful young girl with Cher and Sonny through the years, I sort of thought we must have some sense of what Cher must have felt when faced with the loss of her daughter, while wanting to embrace her "new" son. I've admired Cher for years and can't begin to appreciate what she must have gone through, but I feel like I have a small sense. And through you, I feel like I understand a bit more.

Thank you for your honesty and courage in sharing.

I think it's a thoughtful OP, and I appreciate your perspective. I'm sorry that you've been subject to abuse here.

You are a rw'er, or an enemy or what not. And how you and your son muddle through life is between the two of you and not a damn bit of my business unless he shows up in a support group I happen to be in as well.

The only thing I disagree with you on is people caring about how Manning is spoken of on these pages. It IS important. It is important in the same way that people would care if President Obama or Colon Powell was referred to as "n*gger" on these pages." It should NOT be a wedge issue--it doesn't matter if you are for or against Manning, the discussion of trans* language has certainly gone beyond her at this point.

Having a personal relationship with someone, especially such a close one, can sometimes muddy the water around language. No one here has a personal relationship with Manning. Refusing to use the right pronouns in this case (assuming it isn't just a mistake or you didn't know) is bigoted and offensive. That says nothing about you or your relationship with your son.

The point it serves is not using language that has/is being used to disenfranchise or marginalize others. And I understand how some people don't see using the wrong pronouns as disenfranchisement--they have never had to deal with it so how could they know.

Imagine people refusing to use the right pronoun in front of an important client at work. Imagine people refusing to use the right pronoun in college classes when most of the other students would not have suspected any differences between your gender identity and your sex. Imagine people using the wrong pronoun as they threatened or assaulted you, or actively attempted to kill you. This is stuff trans* people face. This is serious and important to many people facing oppression and violence.

And I also have a trans* child. He's 9. I don't particularly care if he decides to be a purple clam, as long as he is a purple clam who is kind to others and tries his best. My relationship with him is in no way threatened by people asking me to use respectful language about their minority group.

This sums up my thoughts exactly. Having a private set of memories concerning your own offspring or personal friends that you keep to yourself is a very different thing than making a decision to publicly refusing to acknowledge someone's proper gender, whether in a forum setting or a discussion.

The first is highly personal and private. The second is consciously adding to a culture of intolerance.

I don't think we're doing anyone any favors by running with the attitude that it's okay on DU to be dismissive and disrespectful of Chelsea Manning's gender as long as we aren't saying it to her face. The message to everyone in that, whether or not Manning ever reads DU, is that we don't really accept transgendered people's identity. We just pretend to when they're in the room.

That's not an okay message for other transgendered people here, and it's not an acceptable message for those who are still processing the whole concept.

I teach in a high school. I had students in my classes last year who were openly transitioning in both directions. I wonder what message it sends to them, or to other teens struggling with these issues, to come to one of the largest communities of people who think of themselves as progressive, GLBT friendly folks, and find that even here, it's considered fine to refuse to acknowledge Manning as a woman? What does that do to their ego?

Those are the questions we should be asking, not "how can I get others to accept my calling Manning a dude without getting my posts deleted? How can I continue to refer to her as a guy without dividing the party?"

Or even more offensive, the question: "How can I deliberately use language that disenfranchises a lot of people and make them understand that they still need to be unified with me, for the good of the community/party?"

I would feel exactly the same way. I'm prett sure Cher has expressed similar views with Chaz as well.

Those who insist on using the name Bradley and male gender pronouns, or those who keep pointing out that it's impolite and disrespectful to treat transgender people that way?

It's not about whether Chelsea Manning ever hears about DU. It's attempting to frame a community standard which respects all trans* who deal with bullshit arguments like "got a penis, still a man" every day.

Please don't leave. Great post.

I'm sure there are lots of ways that people who are actually in loving family relationships with a transgendered child handle the pronoun/name issues; those who preach a standardized approach and simultaneously use the "transphobic" label as a cudgel should think again when they read your story.

Would they also criticize the mother of Islan Nettles, who was beaten to death in NYC this week?

I imagine that struggle occurs with all close friends and family, but strangers /new acquaintances have no reason to have that sort of ambivalence.

... where Charlie's friends and family might see it? Where other friends who might be transgender might see it?

Then don't refer to Manning as Bradley on DU.

transgender person.

situation 14 years ago, let me tell you how I felt.

I struggled. I'm a mother - and I thought I had a daughter. I carried this kid under my heart, fed him at my breast, sewed special dresses for him every birthday until he was five (when I realized that meringues just didn't suit my daughter). Strangely, perhaps, given the course of his life, I was very careful (aside from the conceit of those birthday dresses) to raise him in a very gender neutral fashion - as many trucks as dolls; stories that didn't deliver gendered messages; everyday clothes that split the difference between girl and boy . . . I thought I was doing pretty well with that sort of thing.

But he wasn't a happy child. The doctors told me it was ADD - and it may be (still) but that issue masked an unhappiness that I could see, but couldn't begin to understand. All I could do was try to make it better.

When he was 16, he told me he was gay and like you I was relieved, because I thought that coming to that realization would make him, finally, happy. And I was happy, believing that, because his unhappiness was mine, as well.

When he was 18, he told me he was "neuter". I didn't understand, but he was young, newly independent . . . I just said, okay. I said okay when he told me he had cut off his hair and okay when he told me that he was binding his breasts. I WAS okay with it - but I didn't understand what he was telling me.

When he was 19, he told me that he was going to become a man. I remember that my first response was "Oh?" I didn't understand what he was telling me. He lived several states away, so in the months that followed I started doing research. Then I started to understand what he wanted to do. In the meantime, he would tell me what progress he was making - an appointment with a counselor, because he had to go through months of counseling before he could start hormone therapy. He was also pretty hard-nosed about it - chastising me every time I forgot to call him by his chosen name; reminding me that I needed to refer to him as "he" not "she".

My son is my only child. I love him unconditionally - but I struggled with this. I didn't have an intellectual problem with what he was doing; reading and researching allowed me to understand and accept his transition on that level. Where I struggled was in my heart, because I felt my child slipping away from me in a way I couldn't really understand. He was there - but he wasn't . . . because the child I raised was not a son.

It took me six years. Six years when I couldn't even bear to look at old photos - and I couldn't figure out why it hurt so much. I still had my child; nothing had happened to him; he was still here.

Then one day I realized that the reason I couldn't bear to look at those pictures; why I felt almost betrayed when he called me and said, "Mom, I'm picking my new name and I want you to pick my middle name."

In my heart, I realized that I had to let my daughter die - so I could embrace my son. I had to let that person I had raised GO, because my son was never that person.

It is a metaphorical death, but it has to happen. You cannot fully embrace your son if you continue to see him as your daughter.

I have a wonderful relationship with my son now, because I no longer look at him and try to see the person I thought he was - but I have never shared this part of MY transition - from mother of a daughter to mother of a son - with him. One day I will, because he wants me to write about my experience. To be honest, I'm not sure how he will feel about it, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

I am certain of one thing only. That man who is my son is a wonderful, intelligent, compassionate human being; happy in himself and complete in a way that he never was as a child. I not only love him more than anything on this planet, I respect and admire him as a human being.

What I needed to do to complete my transition was important, but it had nothing to do with his transition, in the end. Speaking only from my experience, I encourage you to figure out what you need to do to look at your son and see him - not an echo of your daughter.

I agree with your son that this is a story that deserves to be told and, based on what you wrote here, a necessary story.

Thank you.

I appreciate the kind words.

I'm really lucky. I know this amazing person - an always kind and loving and generous man who in the last few years has blossomed in a new country and new environment. That he is my son seems like an exceedingly kind gift; I would have been happy just to say I know him.

that will distract from the importance of her revelations and the excessive severity of her punishment.

Otherwise, it is her right to do so and doesn't detract from the value of what she has done for the rest of us.

you have friends here!! And by the way, you're an AWESOME DAD - you are honestly trying.

I think it goes a long way to helping people be more understanding and tolerant. We are all just people trying to live and be happy.

As a parent, I know I will accept my boys for who they are (unless they're Republicans! lol) but some things are harder than others. Gender identity would be hard for a number or reasons, not the least of which is fear that they will be victimized by bigots.

Keep doing what you're doing! Parenting is incredibly challenging and it seems like you love your kid and you're doing your best. That's all any of us can do.