Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:14 AM Aug 2013

On the use of correct pronouns...

Even as someone with experience dealing with transgender issues and transphobia, I still catch myself making mistakes. Most people are okay as long as you correct yourself.

This is not a measure of one's acceptance but an issue in sociology and social psychology. Much of it is the workings of our subconscious. We are socialized to use certain physical cues to almost instantaneously determine a persons gender along the preconceived gender binary male/female.

These cues can often be quite subtle. From the shape and size of one's hands to the angle of a jaw line, to shape of the hips, one can quite accurately predict gender without ever speaking to an individual or even making eye contact.

This, of course, is exceptionally dangerous in a world where humans, as sentient beings, are able to transcend mindless reactions in favor of intelligence. We become confident in our gender identifying abilities for at least two reasons. The first, of course, is the fact that we use it constantly. As you walk down the street, passing hundreds, even thousands of people, you are making judgments, many of them subconscious, of the people around you. The whiff of a certain perfume right as someone passes might cause you to assign gender identity to someone you've never seen before and will never see again.

This kind of subject placement becomes somewhat more convoluted on a place like an internet forum. But the general mechanisms remain the same. Our brains tend to lock in gender identity and are not easily reeducated. This might be the case because we are wrongfully socialized to associate gender identity with the possession of a certain set of sexual organs. If a famous individual has been identified as being one gender as opposed to another, we want to assume that identity is constant. Not only do we want to assume, we need the assumptions to maintain normal social function.

Gender ambiguity throws a monkey wrench into social interaction. If someone cannot properly identify the gender of an individual, it becomes extremely difficult to form a conversation or bond because we, unfortunately, rely so heavily on gender cues to initiate certain types of discussions or relations. The human stress response becomes a factor and we often become confused or even scared.

With all that being said, we cannot expect every person to comprehend all of this immediately and we cannot expect everyone to simply shut off an engrained portion of the socialized brain in an instant.

Chelsea Manning is a woman because she says she is a woman. A few days ago, she was a man, as far as most were concerned. The switch inevitably must be made and it must be made as quickly as possible to respect her wishes. But a slip up here or there is not a damnable offense.

Just my two cents.

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

longship

(40,416 posts)
1. France 24 had a major segment tonight on this very topic.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:59 AM
Aug 2013

Only from the journalistic perspective. The bottom line is that if Manning says that she's a she named Chelsea, that's how journalists should report it. Period!

The guy who was being interviewed (sorry, didn't get his name) basically put it this way:

Would a journalist call Muhammed Ali by the name "Cassius Clay"?

I remember when that happened. None of the news media retained the name Cassius Clay. None of them.

It was a perfect argument for Chelsea Manning's case. She has the right to her own name and her own identity. Just as Muhammed Ali does.

It was brilliantly done.

Case closed.

Kudos to France 24. Their print reportage reflects this position. The also reported that The Guardian has also adopted the same. And that CBS has not.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
2. Like I said, the switch must be made. But don't condemn individuals for slipping up...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 03:01 AM
Aug 2013

Or simply being too confused to understand or make the change. I've seen plenty of DUers on here who don't seem to have much experience on the subject. They should be educated and informed to make the change. But that requires us to put in the effort of informing such individuals.

longship

(40,416 posts)
3. Gentle correction, I think.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 03:12 AM
Aug 2013

Of course, there's always resistance to pedantry here. But, in this case, such corrections are appropriate, if only for education.

I wish that everybody here could have seen the interview on France 24 this evening on journalistic ethics on this very topic. There would be no question about it and all we would have to deal with is the slip ups. Sadly, I fear that isn't the case.

So, we need to soldier on. Firmly but sotto voce (without yelling).


pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
4. Ah, the confusion...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:16 AM
Aug 2013

that is what I have to deal with.

The visual conflict.

A person can say, and believe, that he is a female, and really, it doesn't make a difference to me what someone believes. It's all good.

But if I happen to catch that person coming out of the shower without a towel, and certain male parts are there, it's absolutely fucking with my head to insist I call that person a woman.

It's like showing me a yellow flower and insisting I call it red.

OTOH, if a person is sufficiently androgynous, perhaps possessing both sets of sexual organs, or extremely stunted male, or enlarged female, organs, then, perhaps oddly, the issue is easier for me to deal with in my mind. In cases like that, whatever the person says he or she is, that's what he or she is.

So yeah...visual conflict is what I have to deal with in the Manning case. And it's real sad to know that there are some allegedly "progressive" people who would gleefully judge, and ascribe malicious intent to, people who are unable to reconcile what they see with what they're being told they must believe.



Lex

(34,108 posts)
5. "what they're being told they must believe"
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:22 AM
Aug 2013

You don't have to believe anything, just be respectful to the person's wishes. Not difficult.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
8. I'm sorry, but...
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:37 PM
Aug 2013

in order for me to "be respectful", it means I have to suspend my belief in something I know as fact.

And that fact is, a person who is headed to prison will be serving time in the men's section.

I'm doing what I consider is the right thing in not referring to this person as "it"...as I saw some others do. I would never call someone an "it".

And really... very few here have the right to be playing the "respect" card around here when the "respect" they demand be shown to any particular person depends on who that person is politically, or what Robin Hood acts that person has performed.

I can just imagine someone like Rush Limbaugh changing his name to Roberta and wanting to be called "she", and how that would play out around these parts.

Respect? Nahhhh...

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
17. You have every right in the world to be prejudiced and intolerant.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:54 PM
Aug 2013

A lot of progressive people may not care for your RW beliefs.

It is what it is.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
6. gender is not the same as sex- why can't you absorb this new (to you) information? Maybe analyze
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 03:23 PM
Aug 2013

the reasons you will give some people a "pass" and acceptance but judge others to not be up to YOUR ideas of what gender is. And how you have it all confused with sex organs. It's not so hard to stop pigeon holing people.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
9. Why can't I absorb it?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:42 PM
Aug 2013

Maybe I'm just too stupid.

Yeah. That must be it.

thanks for the "respectful" discussion, though, and a not-so-subtle reminder of what a moron I am.

1-Old-Man

(2,667 posts)
11. Well, maybe it could be that there's really nothing to adsorb
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:00 PM
Aug 2013

Just because someone tells you there is now a distinction that as far as any of us knew never existed before doesn't mean that is real. A lot of people think that their own pet cause is the only thing on earth that matters and if you don't follow its every nuance you're nothing but a walking turd - even if they do create their own language and definitions, and I daresay confrontational situations with people who might very well be appreciative of their cause. That said you did a good job of responding to a rather rude posting.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
14. wow, could you be any more close minded about gender? Pet cause- are you fucking kidding me?
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:42 PM
Aug 2013

This is about how people live their lives- it is no small thing, and it is very real. Just because things aren;t on your narrow little staright guy radar, does not mean they are unimportant to many. You need to get out more, Old Man.

"Might well be appreciative of their cause"- what kind of conditional support is that- how much do you want LGBT to step and fetch for you in order to gain your appreciation? You're either truly progressive and supportive, or a jerk who thinks he is owed something for being asked to RESPECT OTHERS. If that's too much for you, it's too much for you, and your shame. Thanks for showing your true colors here.

Ms. Toad

(34,076 posts)
18. Please conside self deleting.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:12 PM
Aug 2013

My foster child, who came into our care because he was suicidal - and spent hours banging his head against a pole because he couldn't get the man out of a head attached to a female body, is not a pet cause.

My high school sweetheart, who lived more than 5 decades not taking care of the male body she inhabits because it felt so foreign to her, is not a pet cause.

(And I could name a dozen more)

These are real people who hear you describing their lives, and the indescribable torment they go through, as a "pet cause" or not "real."

DU ought to be a place where they don't have to hear those cruel taunts.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
12. Wow, I was giving you credit thinking this was new information. But it's obvious now that you don't
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:35 PM
Aug 2013

give a fuck. You'd rather just disrespect others because it's so damned hard to stop pigeon holing them.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
7. If you're unsure of someone's gender, and don't know that person,
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 03:44 PM
Aug 2013

Simply don't refer to gender at all. Simply use non gender-specific terms when referring to the person. When you find out what gender that person is, you can use the correct pronouns easily.

If you don't know someone, there's probably not a lot of reason to be talking about that person anyhow.

For example, suppose you're in a restaurant and the person waiting on you is someone whose gender you can't determine. You need to have that person come to the table, and you're speaking to another employee of the restaurant. Simply say, "Could you ask our server to come over?" Or "Could you ask the person waiting on us to come over?" The words "server" or "person" substitutes for all personal pronouns.

The person you asked to summon the staff member may say, I'll ask "her" or "him" to come back to your table. Bingo! Someone who knows the person just told you that person's gender. Or, the other staff member may refer to the person by name when responding. In that case, you know the person's name and can refer to him or her by name, even if the name is one that doesn't clearly indicate gender. Just say, "Hi, Pat. Could we get the dessert menu?" when your server comes to the table.

There are always solutions that are non-offensive in any situation. The well-mannered person always has those solutions in mind.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
10. Old habits are hard to break.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:46 PM
Aug 2013

Switching gears can take a little time. Just because somebody slips up and uses the wrong pronoun doesn't mean they're transphobic.

Ms. Toad

(34,076 posts)
13. Big difference between live interactions
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:41 PM
Aug 2013

Last edited Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:25 PM - Edit history (1)

and the internet. Especially in the two days following the announcement in discussions about Chelsea Mannings gender identity.

In the latter circumstances, a slip-up is deliberate. It simply does not pass the laugh test that someone in a conversation about whether to refer to her using female pronouns "slips" and uses male pronouns or calls her a man. First, it is the subject of the conversation. Second you have all the time in the world to review your post before hitting post. Third, many posters did so deliberately and repeatedly, accompanied by comments like "he's a man until he has surgery (or does whatever thing the poster imagines makes her a woman)"

Discussing what has been going on here as if it was all slip-ups is insulting. No trans* person I know is going to damn anyone for the occasional slip-up by someone who knew them before transition. A friend of mine says folks have as long to unlearn her gender expression and get it right as they knew her. Generally it doesn't take that long. But that is not what is going on here.

That didn't take long - Cases in point:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023524973#post4 (A person can say, and believe, that he is a female, and really, it doesn't make a difference to me what someone believes. )
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023524973#post8 (to be respectful {and use correct pronouns} I have to suspend my belief in something I know as fact (i.e. that body parts = gender).)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023524973#post11 (it's not real; just a pet cause)

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
15. Yep- look at the hostility on this thread. It is no accident at all- and it is fucking sad.
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:44 PM
Aug 2013

I never knew there were so many small minded selfish people here. Wow.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
16. If you call someone "she" and he corrects you
Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:50 PM
Aug 2013

and says, "Actually, my name is Andrew and I'm a man," I'm guessing you'd apologize and say you appreciate the heads up, and you'd call him Andrew and "he" from that point on. You wouldn't ask him to drop his pants to make sure his parts match what he's calling himself, as some around here seem to think they have a right to do. You wouldn't second guess him and ask what chromosones he has as if you're a professional biologist (who would know enough about chromosones to not ask that anyway.)

If you'd correct yourself and say "he" from them on, then yay. It's people who think they have a right to argue about whether other people are the authorities on their own genders who are the problem.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»On the use of correct pro...