have always turned out well for those we "helped."

and turned out well for a lot of the 'helpers' also(blackwater) absconding with millions of dollars stuffed in duffel bags jumping on helicopters to disappear forever to who knows where. Cayman's maybe. Yes I remember those reports and pictures of these 'crooks'. Not to mention the murder and grief perpetrated by these amerikan mercenaries at the behest of the tools for 'The Project for the New American Century'. I will NEVER forget who was behind all this misery we've been experiencing since 2000.

Derp.

wait till DU gets its war on.

Somebody has to support a new Middle East war.

When we ignored President Eisenhower's warning in his exit speech, we began the path that has led us to this.

Where the structure built to prevent evil, has become evil.

Our complacency, our ignorance, our willingness to whore for a job, has led us to this.

If it gets turned around (big if) it will be because citizens made it happen.

Barring that, this nation, in its current form, could morph into the greatest evil the world has ever known.

They may not be eliminated from the face of the earth, but they're also not running any countries that I'm aware of.

But that wasn't the question, was it?

Perhaps we can arrange human affairs to eliminate violence someday. And perhaps the proverbial pigs might fly.

Until then, military forces can be a tool of good. Certainly not the way America practices it today.

And that's NOT a criticism of the great majority of the people in the military itself. As little as we hear about it, we have many people being a force of good in the world.

But the abuses by politicians and the MIC are catastrophic, illegal, and regressive to the point of retardation. Politically speaking, we have little right to criticize other nations.

What angers me most is that America's military and political leadership expect us to overlook the obvious abuses and illegalities by our own government, and stand behind their empty, hypocritical speeches and policies.

try and parse it anyway you wish, you just said "it wasnt worth it"

100 million people died, at least, in WWII

it also created our middle class, real veterans benefits and a manufacturing platform that launched the united states to super power.


but lol, the joke is on you. The MIC didnt really exist in WWII. You're just so "anti war" that you cant ever admit that our military is sometimes the only answer.

Or would you have us still paying taxes to King George with no representation? Or we should have let the south secede?

btw, you are not "anti war". You havent lived it seen it smelled it. Doesnt still wake you up at night. Doesnt affect your family and how you interact with people every day. You just like how it sounds more intellectual, and the social benefits you garner from it. Especially here on DU.

I lived it. Smelled it. Can still taste is sometimes. Launching our war machine like they did in Iraq needs to absolutely be the last resort. Always. See, you can spout numbers and philosophy, I can recount personal experiences. When I choose to speak to people about my war, they actually listen and become informed.

trying to put words in my post that were not there.

which has sadly been relegated to the discount bins at Barnes and Noble. The MIC was largely responsible for WW2 in the Pacific. And without Japan, who knows about Europe?

everywhere.

And, I don't want to hear about the pitiable victims of the murderous Syrian 'government.' We didn't hear an outcry for intervention in Rwanda, East Timor, Somalia, or Myanmar. Might that be because there's no economic benefits to be had in those countries? Might it be for other, less "noble" reasons?

These wars and military adventures will never end. They are too profitable for the stockholders in the war-related corporations.

I am referring to the corporate megalomaniacs and their sycophants -- and their handful of water-carriers herein.

It's a complete mess right now and has been. UN is involved militarily. I've heard no one advocate for us to go there.

One has to wonder how many US citizens are even aware of the genocide there and in the myriad other countries never mentioned by the M$M.

If DRC had lots of oil.....things would change quickly. AFAIK, they don't. I'm not aware of DRC having any other important resources for us either. Even WITH the UN involved militarily, it's a real slog from what I'm reading. It's a sub-Saharan Syrian type civil war, with outside meddlers from (I think) Rwanda.

people. But we are selective about who are friends and who our enemies are. It doesn't depend on whether they are dictators or not. We have plenty of friends who are dictators, in fact looking back over the decades we seem to prefer Dictators to democratically elected leaders.

They lie to us and some still believe the lies. It seem to depend on whose team is doing it.

But who can take a government seriously that helps stir up all these 'revolutions', provides weapons to the 'rebels' even if they are brutal terrorists, then claims to be so horrified that they must rush in with their WMD and save the people from the 'dictator', when everyone knows we love our dictator friends no matter what they are doing to their people.

I oppose all wars now other than if we are being attacked by another country.

House of Saud"? War truly is all about the money...

And this potential intervention in Syria comes after we've been thoroughly militarized and turned bloodthirsty after 9/11. Lots of money to be made in building new cruise missiles and bombs.

Gotta keep the MIC all fat and happy!

I will never vote for a war monger...never.
If we don't get a handle on the MIC we will go the way of Rome.

Or is there a principle for military action you can state clearly?

Cold Mountain (for which she deservedly won an Oscar)?

Last edited Sat Aug 24, 2013, 05:12 PM - Edit history (1)

...and I'm thoughtful enough not to justify an absolutist position with cliches like "MIC".

Do I want more Americans put at risk? No. But since I was in Syria 2 weeks before the uprising, I perhaps have a more personal view of the people who are being subject to chemical warfare and terrorism from their Government.

You're welcome to take the position that the sole role of the military is to defend against a direct invasion of US territory. Personally, I don't propose to completely ignore the world around me.

..I'm NOT going to buy our Government's Story about WHY we have to kill people over there either.
NEVER again.

That well has been forever poisoned by the unbroken history of LIES, Propaganda, and False Flag Provocations for Expanded WARS.
Government, MSM, Democrats/Republicans...doesn't matter WHO is serving as the current Mouth-Piece for the MIC, can not be trusted.

Never. Again.


Trust Us.
They are evil dictators who kill their own people !
If you're not FOR the WAR in
Vietnam
Afghanistan
Iraq
Libya
[font size=4] Syria,[/font]

you're WITH
The Communists
AlQaeda
The Terrorists
Saddam
Qaddafi
[font size=4] Assad

Terror! Terror! Terror!
Evil Dictators! Booga...Booga
USA....USA...USA
[/font]

There are other sources for information besides the US Government and their lap dogs in the US Corporate MSM.

But I KNOW that when I hear those same drums beating,
and hear the same old LIES repackaged,
I'm not going to follow the Lemmings.
Of course, you are perfectly free to do so.


[font size=3]Public Service Continuing Education:[/font]
Almost every post that is prefaced with "So"
is a Strawman Logical Fallacy,
as your post so perfectly illustrates.

No Charge.

..and THAT is not what we are debating.
Now, can you PROVE who actually used them.
The Assad Regime had the LEAST to gain by using Chem WMDs in Syria.

How many times will you fall for the same old Bullshit without doing Due Diligence?
These same people have LIED to you over, and over, and over,
but you'll line up an buy another ticket to the same scam?

They are going to have to produce the Smoking Gun, independently verified by Multiple Uninvolved agencies with NO Skin in the game (that means Israel is DQed) BEFORE I'm going to join with the Lets KILL THEM ALL NOW!!! crowd.

How many times do you have to be suckered before you will put your money back in your pocket and just walk away?

(from what locals told me)

and I KNOW that the former Assad regime essentially wiped out the population in an earlier uprising

(from what the locals told me)

and I KNOW the current Assad regime has shown itself willing to kill civilians to hold onto power

(from what the locals ARE telling me)

So, if its all right with you, I'll go with the locals.

Were you the guy that said "they'll greet us as liberators" in 2003? Because what you write is simplistic in the same way. Simple and seductive and persuasive as an argument for intervention. And that's the problem. Too simple. Nothing to do with the actual reality on the ground.

But yeah, let the American military cooperate with Al Qaeda again in order to topple regimes. It worked so well in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Balkans before it blew up in our faces on 9/11.

I'm rambling now. My point is - civil /proxy wars are never just "good" vs " bad". We owe the people that we send to fight our wars more than just an emotional declaration that one side are the "good folks" and that it is therefore imperative to risk their lives for them.

There's tons of "good guys" to help around the world. If that is the metric for intervention and we apply it equally to all theaters we're in for centuries of endless wars. In reality, we are highly selective about which "good guys" we help and whom we let hang. Humanitarian reasons are never at the base of this - geopolitics and economics is. Which are piss-poor reasons for war if you're part of the 99%.

...by admitting that here are other sources beyond the US Government and the US MSM (SEE: US Government).
Unfortunately, you burned your own Strawman about me being a "isolationist" simply because I no longer trust the US Government to Tell the Truth....about anything if it involves $Money$ or $WAR$.

NOW,
Please cite some sources to support your claim that "the Locals" told you that Assad was using gas on his own people.
Remember, now that you have joined those who Question Authority,
critical thinking is necessary when examining the evidence.

Poison Gas is very easy to use without leaving fingerprints. In that part of the World, it is EASY to obtain, and only takes one man with a donkey cart to kill thousands. It is the perfect vehicle for a False Flag provocation,
so the Smoking Gun is going to be incredible difficult to document.

That was arguably the case with WW II and the Civil War. Anything after WW II has been military bullying in the interests of the 1% rather than the country as a whole.

They were tired of war when Obama came into office. They are even more tired now.

Singing Dylan's Masters of War. This pretty well sums it up for me

We can do the same thing for Syria! I mean, just look at Iraq! And Afghanistan. We brought 'em Freedum! An' Gunz! Prety soon they'll be just like Amurka! (Oh, wait.............never mind..............)




( )

instead of devoting our resources to war, we used them for humanitarian purposes. If the aim is to help people, why not do it in ways that don't require killing and injuring people? Military power should be used for deterrence and, if necessary, self-defense. Beyond that it is almost never the most cost-effective way of making the world a better place.

If I might suggest, people like some of these people:

and pretty much everywhere. Just a matter of time until we "do" Syria, IMHO. We'll find some sanitary antonym to justify the profits to maintain our military contractors so we can, yet again, earn more "hearts and flowers".

ZOLTÁN GROSSMAN

Faculty member in Geography and Native American Studies, The Evergreen State College
Lab 1, Room 3012, 2700 Evergreen Pkwy. NW,

FROM WOUNDED KNEE TO LIBYA:

A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS

by Dr. Zoltan Grossman

The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 2011.

Among sources used, beside news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969), 180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corp History Division, Ege & Makhijani in Counterspy (July-Aug, 1982), "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C. Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service, and Ellsberg in Protest & Survive

COUNTRY OR STATE Dates of intervention Forces Comments

SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War

The very words of George W Bush on Feb. 14, 2007, uttered at a press conference in which not a single of the callow, cowed press corpse saw fit to ask a follow-up.

is tptb call them, they're wars.

Watched an interesting documentary that explained why we go to
war in the ME. Basically it is to protect the dollar. We have an agreement
with the Saudis dating back into the 70's to protect their oil fields
in exchange for the Saudis keeping oil trading on the U.S. dollar.
That agreement with the Saudis expanded to the OPEC nations.
I guess when we go to war 'to protect' our interests that the
thinking may be...it's to our economic interests. Of course, the MIC
is made healthier in the process too...win, win!

I would think this also keeps the Federal Reserve happy.

Look both Saddam and Ghaddafi are dead...both threatened
different currencies in trading oil. IMHO wars in the ME are about
oil but for reasons in addition to supply. As I understand it we do
not get most of our oil from the ME....just sayin'.

The reality of war shreds the paper of propaganda.

I hope nothing changes your mind

dedicated to finding NONVIOLENT SOLUTIONS to world conflicts.

I like that idea.

The neocons are urging us into military intervention. Once we're in, we're in. Contact your government leaders before they stick their feet in it.

Too many lies.

of stopping it or slowing it down. I am with you xchrom. We are not the terrorists, they are the ones that produce and profit these poisons and weapons of mass destruction.

While they become increasingly powerful enough to hire their own armies and governments and lawyers to do their bidding, we do the dying and are the scapegoats for their projected guilt.

I do not advocate violence but peaceful resistance. Our president told us clearly to hold his feet to the fire, and so we must. We are not children who get told one thing, only to be told later we are not sophisticated enough to understand how things really are and that is why we are told stories to placate us.

Enough.

Or let 'em volunteer their own loved ones.

I'm sure it'll be a looooong time before any of them do.

I am right there with you.

I have been wondering how this country can even THINK of getting involved in another conflict when we are under sequestration, our current troops are serving half a dozen tours already, and so much more...

seems like they are always hungry for it. warmongers.

I would include Viet Nam. Iraq, Afghanistan and Viet Nam wars were all instigated for political reason...not for defense.

The only ones who WON in Libya were the Global Banks, The Global Oil Corporations, and the IMF.

The Bush disaster family, for example, who recently got $2 billion from their 2/3s share in surveillance state contractor Booz Allen.

THIS is the reason for the "wars"...that, and the debt accrued. Such debt, which is the basis of the disaster capitalism we now see torturing Greece, Spain, and closer to home, Detroit, Pontiac, and Benton Harbor Michigan, who are being vulture capitalized (as planned) by Koch brothers shill Rick Snyder.

At some point, the Bush war debt will be trotted out as the "reason" for extreme austerity measures to be forced upon the 99% of this nation.

eom

i have no problem applying this as a litmus test.

and we haven't had that for a very long time. So, the reasonable people compromise with the insane and the insane come back with even more crazy. Add the overarching element of money over people and what hope for living together remains?

But you're right about the money.

- That's got to go.

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