Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

JNathanK

(185 posts)
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:25 AM Feb 2012

Private and Home Schooling Isn't Necessarily Better than Public Schooling (rant)

In the AZ debate, Romney, Santorum, Newt, and Pails espoused views in response to an audience member's question about education, in which they very unanimously, indicated that they want to shrink the Department of Education and get the Federal, as well as State governments (Paul remained neutral on this since he's a state's rights advocate, but he supports Federal de-funding as well) out of education, and put it all in the hands of communities. I think it was Mitt who went as far as saying he wants it back int he hands of parents, which is really just code for privatizing all schools and the pretext for ending compulsory, primary and secondary education. The audience member's question had to do specifically with Santorum's support of No Child left behind in 2004, which he promptly denounced his support of. Judging by his overall views about where he want's education to go, along with the rest of the Republicans, I don't see what their overall disagreement with the effects of No Child Left Behind is, which is the wide scale federal de-funding of public schools. ???? Maybe they just disagreed with Bush's style of doing it in a covert, sneaky way and that they're promising to screw American children out of an education more directly?

Whenever I hear any debate about public education though, Private and homeschooling seems to always be presented as superior. I think it only depends on the school though. Private schooling tends to cost more, and home schooling only works if there's a dedicated parent that can stay home with the kid and train them to pass state school exams. That's kind of hard for middle and lower class working parents in this day and age, especially during a recession.

On a side note, what would become of state school standards if these Republicans have their way? Maybe in their infinite wisdom, they could come up with a private sector alternative.



Teacher: Now who can tell me the atomic weight of ballognium?

Student: Umm...Delicious

Teacher: Correct...I would also accept snacktacular...

http://stolensoul666.buzznet.com/user/video/2657881/bolognium/ (watch funny Simpsons clip I couldn't figure our how to imbed)

At the rate they're going with cutting social safety netting for the poor and the middle class, the latter of which are losing jobs and fall into the former category, I think the only option left would be for kids to help mom and dad get enough money to pay the bills. In fact Newt, and a number of other conservatives, have already proposed relaxing child labor laws so that inner city kids can get jobs scrubbing toilets to learn the value of hard work, since, according to the right wing outlook, their parents are all obviously unemployed gang bangers and welfare queens. This, they insist, wouldn't possibly be anything other than an after school job. The fact Newt said it'll be a way of undermining janitorial unions might suggest he really wants it to be a full time job for them though. Anyway, whatever their true master plan is, when schools are all privatized, inner city parent's won't be able to pay the high enrollment fees, typical to private schools, and be able to pay rent at the same time.

On another note why private education isn't always superior, when I went to a private school, I learned that the Bible was the infallible and literal word of God, that the earth was 7000 years old, and that dinosaurs roamed the earth with human beings. My education was sufficient in the area of English and Mathematics, but when it came to science, current events, and history, they referenced a Bible verse practically every other sentence. Public schools may suffer in the area of teaching critical thinking skills to children, but there's nothing inherent about private school education that makes them necessarily better in this area either.

Heck, some victims of insufficient private education can't even claim decent instruction in those fundamental area of reading, writing, and arithmetic. Some kid I knew, who joined my 6th grade class, was so undereducated by his aunt's tutoring and another private school (that really should have been shut down and condemned) that he was reading at a 2nd grade level. He left before the semester was up, I'm guessing because his guardians kept getting embarrassed when they were pressed for answers by staff about their negligence.

I don't think the solution to American education is to just tear down all the public schools. It isn't even necessarily giving them more funding. I think the key is to explore other teaching models and for American culture, in general, to cultivate a better appreciation for learning and knowledge. We see education as a means to an end, to be a way of making lots of money. This attitude of course preempts the commoditization of education. The educators want to make as much as possible selling the product to the student or the parents of the student, who are willing to pay top dollar so that that the pupil can have knowledge to eventually make a bunch of money and buy all the commodities that are advertised as essential to us for achieving the American dream (big house, cars. vacations, etc). However, I think education is something that should be valued in its own right, not because it can give you some upper edge against everyone else, but because mass enlightenment is necessary for the survival of a free, democratic society.

I don't think the free market model is a healthy way of approaching knowledge. Its very valuable for a whole lot of reasons, but that doesn't mean the majority has to be deprived of it for the benefit of a few. We've put too much emphasis on economic competition, as if that's the end-all argument to history and solution for all our problems, but I fear we may be getting to a point where the competition will be over who's children get to learn how to read and who's kids don't. Its happened in the days of serfdom, in the modern day, third world economies, and I don't see why it couldn't happen here.



Here's the debate I wrote about. I can't find specific, edited clips from the portion I was referring to though.



Here's a great Noam Chomsky interview concerning education.

14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
 

saras

(6,670 posts)
1. AFAIK in the PNW, progressive home/private schooling is almost always better than public...
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:53 AM
Feb 2012

Christian ed varies - it ranges from pretty good for conservatives, i.e. biased but college-entry competent, to blazingly stupid, not unlike the worst of other areas. A handful of years ago the dominionists tried to take over school districts in a few quasi-rural counties, apparently forgetting how many rednecks in the PNW are redneck hippies.

But NECESSARILY? Hell, no.

A lot of Christian "schooling" seems to me to be anti-schooling, where they are deliberately trying to stunt the child's desire to learn, and settle for some childish superstition instead. You can believe damn near anything about God you want - none, one, many, meaningless, all at once - without it having to have any effect at all on your understanding of geology or archaeology. The fundies are doing something else entirely. A fairly basic test of a good education in ANY subject is that when you encounter new information, you integrate it into your education, you don't reject it.

GobBluth

(109 posts)
3. No thanks. 2 out of my 3 kids would be dunces if they had to rely on me
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 01:42 AM
Feb 2012

I was able to teach my older two how to read before they were 4. But even with that my oldest needs a professional (I honestly feel like sticking my head in the oven trying to help him with his 5th-grade-math). My middle child would do great academically if she was homeshooled, but she really needed the social aspect of it (and thank God, she is now a social butterfly!). My 3rd is the smartest of the group (and I say that because he has the benefit of 2 older siblings who are smart and love him and teach him as much as they can), yet he is 3 and still does not know color, numbers, etc. I want to pull my hair out as I have no IDEA what to do with a child that doesn't want to sit down and read a book (my older two would do it for hours). We can finally afford Pre-K and luckily he has a summer birthday, so we are holding him back a year. He is smart as crap, but desperately needs a creative teacher, and I have not one creative bone in my body.

Thank God for teachers! Thank God for public education. This is not to say that I don't see the benefit of homeschooling if it works for the family. But for my family, well with the amazing support of some amazing teachers, I am hoping that the world will have 3 amazing and productive adults in a decade. I know for a fact my kids would be missing out without the amazing educators they have had. My husband, in-laws, and myself could have done an adequate job, but my kids, and the world, deserve better than that.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
4. Public isn't always bad, and neither is home school
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 01:52 AM
Feb 2012

The most important thing in it all is having the ability to choose (which, in this and other areas, seems to upset otherwise pro-choice people....)

JNathanK

(185 posts)
5. The problem is many aren't in an economic position to choose.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:12 AM
Feb 2012

Its either public or nothing else if you're being raised by a single parent or even raised by two parents that both have to work to make ends meet. It only makes it worst when these candidates talk about taking the only option away for some people.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
6. Homeschooling has been great for us
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:21 AM
Feb 2012

My daughter has done both public and home school and both have worked well (though she had a lot of bullying problems in public school the actual education/teacher were great).

It has helped my X a lot as she has many health problems and can easily take our daughter with her to the dr, not worry about her getting from home to school and her not being there, etc and so on. It is tough though as the curriculum is about 1-2 grades ahead of public schools here (already doing algebra/geometry in 5th grade and learning things that were not even on my radar until 7-9th grade).

The schools around here suck now and we cannot afford private. My 3 sons all went to public school in a small town and did wonderful.

I don't understand the hatred some people have of homeschooling and the choice it offers others.

JNathanK

(185 posts)
7. I personally have no problem with it being an option as long as its done right
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 03:14 AM
Feb 2012

...and the kid isn't reading at a 2nd grade level in the 6th grade, like that peer I had in middle school who joined my class. I just think its arguable that when the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, the access to quality education and the ability to have options keeps dwindling for more and more people. Well, that applies to more areas than childhood education, but that's one of the more critical issues imo.

 

crunch60

(1,412 posts)
9. Homeschooling is a real advantage for people in your situation. Public and
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 05:02 AM
Feb 2012

parochial school exposure helps teach kids communication and social skills with a diverse pool of personalities. How to compromise, when not to, about sharing and working together even if you don't agree on a project or idea. It's about comradery, loyalty and special friendships. (Yes, dancing, necking, drinking, drive-in's,smoking) and all that sinful secular stuff too.
I did it all. A great learning experience. NO sex though, my Mom said if I had a little one, that I would be taking care of him/her, that was enough to make me abstain.lol

There is just so much more that a kid, teenager learns in a public setting, a better, or I should say more rounded pathway into adulthood. I can't imagine what my young years would have been like without all my school friends. The academic curriculum however, was very rigid and I did not do well, I think in a Montessori school would have served me better in that area.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
10. For a homechooled teen I had a pretty active social life.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 05:21 AM
Feb 2012

There was a great local BBS community, and kids had just started getting online (though I was considered the first "juvie" in the community). Only one other family on there homeschooled, so most of the kids I knew went to public school... and many had cars. On Friday nights I attended a live action roleplaying group.

Of course, now I spend a great deal of my time online, so geeky modes of socialization likely did warp me...

moriah

(8,311 posts)
8. My mother was a single parent, and homeschooled me in junior high.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 04:59 AM
Feb 2012

Last edited Mon Feb 27, 2012, 05:34 AM - Edit history (1)

Bullying had gotten extreme, to the point I was assaulted in the *classroom* and the administration did nothing about it.

The University of Nebraska at Lincoln provided a great science curriculum that wasn't based in religion, and even had labs, at a very reasonable price. Duke University provided a great math curriculum, but eventually we decided to go with Saxon as the books really don't require a teacher and explained things better than the Duke curriculum did -- math was NOT my strong subject, nor my mother's.

For the rest, Mom spent several hours with me after she got home from work. Part of our deal was that I cooked dinner for her and had it ready when she got home, and had all my work complete. She ensured my science work was complete (they graded it) and once a week she gave me the tests out of the Saxon curriculum. Actually, I usually was able to get far ahead enough that she had to do it twice a week, but she only required that I do one lesson a day which equated to a weekly test. We realized that buying most of the "grade level" stuff was a waste of our time and money. She had bought a 12th-grade grammar book, then gave me the final exam to see where I was... I aced it, so she moved on to literature. Was great when I re-entered public school in 11th grade... already had papers written for most of the books we studied in AP English. She used her old college texts for history -- I passed the CLEP for American History and Western Civ.

We had a lot of discussions over dinner. It was really very enjoyable -- it helped that I loved to learn. She was extremely critical (in the good sense) when she graded my papers, always making suggestions about how I could improve my arguments. It shocked me that my first paper in public school (on The Scarlett Letter, which I actually hadn't read) the teacher just wrote "100%" and didn't suggest ways I could improve. Mom always found something that could be expressed better.

--------

Of course, all this worked because I was mature enough to be left unsupervised all day while she worked, and self-motivated enough to learn without someone standing over me. I could sleep as late as I wanted, watch whatever I wanted on TV, spend as much time as I wanted on the computer, and didn't have a curfew... as long as I kept up with my studies and housework.

The only reason I was willing to give up that kind of freedom was because at the time, Arkansas law required a person to get the permission of the local school board to take the GED before they were 18, and because I was not a dropout they wouldn't let me...

There are correspondence options available for younger kids, but a five year old can't be left alone all day.

--------

Edit to add: UNL now offers an accredited correspondence degree for high school. Total cost for the entire four years is $5000. No question that it's a bargain compared to private school.

exboyfil

(17,863 posts)
11. You had a wonderful relationship with your mom
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:20 AM
Feb 2012

Your point about UNL ($5K for 4 years) makes me wonder why our state's recent venture into public education ($6K/yr) has not been discussed more. You can pay retail and save $4K/yr? This has not been discussed enough in our state. Brandstad has been pushing it, and I do like the option of virtual school being available, but the cost should be less.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
13. Actually, I miscalculated.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 01:34 PM
Feb 2012

I realized I might have misstated last night after I went to bed, but the most expensive books for any class are $200.... and that's once a year, where the tuition for the same class is $500 (2 0.5 units at $250). The books are separate from the tuition, but I'm sure it's possible to find the same books used like you can for college. There may be additional fees for proctored exams, but those aren't paid to the school. And I miscalculated the value of each semester to their degree. Bad me. By half. It said 20 units were required, and I thought it sounded a bit off, but...

Still, five full units a year is $2500. Add in another $1000 a year for books, and $3500 a year compared to $6000 is still a huge savings over what your state is paying for virtual students.

Edit to add: I wonder if the cost for your state is including the start-up costs to develop curriculum. UNL's been doing their International Study High School for well over a decade.

exboyfil

(17,863 posts)
14. Actually it is out of the can
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:55 PM
Feb 2012

Connections Academy so no development cost. UNL pricing structure is a little lower than North Dakota Center for Distance Education which my daughters have used for a combined five classes. My oldest is currently doing High School Economics online at $150 through APEX Learning. She thought the presentation was a little juvenile on the first section of lessons. Her email to her instructor regarding a quiz question was promptly addressed with a very good response (I was impressed) explaining the reasoning behind a quiz question she missed.

I had the opportunity to ask our Governor a question last year, but I did not know about the virtual academy plans at the time. I would like to ask him why the APEX Academy classes could not be used instead of the high cost Connections Academy program. A full load of APEX classes would be $1,800/yr versus $6,000. Actually our local school districts should work more closely with an organization that already exists (Iowa Learning Online) to offer a complete cafeteria style approach. Our school district will allow us to take the APEX classes on our dime with advanced approval (every request has been approved to this point).

The weird thing about our school district is that my daughter is planning on doing a combination of college, APEX High School, and courses at her High School next year. She is being hounded about not having a full load at the High School (five classes). She will have four classes plus P.E. at the High School (Spanish III, Intro to Engineering Design, Yearbook Journalism, and Broadcast Journalism). In addition to those four classes she will be doing two APEX Social Studies classes, two college English classes, three college math classes (Precalculus, Calculus I, and Calculus II), and two college science classes (Chemistry I and Calculus based Physics I).

She is not going further with the High School English, Math, and Science because of they do not meet her needs for college. No matter how many AP tests she passes she will be placed in a freshman rhetoric course unless she gets college credit instead. Her community college has even recommended that she CLEP out of the first composition after her placement test scores taken as at the start of her 2nd semester in 10th grade. She is looking at using up two more years of English at the High School and getting no credit for it at college. I prefer to pay the $900 and save her those two years.

Her High School AP Chemistry class would require a 5 to get credit, and it would be for only one semester versus the two semesters of material she would cover. She only needs Chemistry I for her major (Electrical Engineering) so she wonders why she would waste a year and possibly not even get credit (a 5 on an AP exam especially Chemistry is not a cake walk).

Her High School does not have an Honors Physics class, but offers a community college non-Calculus based Physics. I do not see a reason for her to risk her college GPA on non-Calculus based Physics when I think it is better to teach Physics with Calculus anyway.

Her Honors Precalculus next year will cover 70% of the same material she covered this year in Honors Algebra/Trig. By taking college Precalculus this summer, she will be able to start her Calculus sequence next year.

She has a real shot at completing her Freshman year in Engineering while in High School. This option should be presented to more students and should be funded at least in part by the local school districts (if nothing more getting the parent better pricing for the classes). We have a Post Secondary Education Option in this state, but many districts like our own lock down opportunities with AP classes that are not treated fairly by the state universities. For our state community college is the way to go.

Javaman

(62,530 posts)
12. The single main issue I have with privatizing schools is...
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:38 PM
Feb 2012

the lack of a unified standard.

Suppost all the schools were privitized in Colorado Springs. CS is a well known christian fundimentalist area. They will be setting their own "standard" for what kids will learn. They will set the curriculum, they will grade the tests, they will be the ones to require this or that. More than likely, prayer in the class room would be a requirement.

Further, suppose whole states who choose privatization with a massively skewed curriculum to the right becomes the norm (the same goes with the Left), what then? Do these newly indoctrinated pupils who then become adults buck the entire system of education by spewing bullshit they were "taught" by corporations and parents with a religious agenda, by then declaring what they believe is true and it goes against their core belief to be part of a Union that espouses the theory of evolution? Or that the earth revolves around the sun? or there are no such thing as witches (in the classical puritanical crazy sense)?

And as a result secede.

It's not all that far fetched given the long term planning both the religious right and the right wing are known to do.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Private and Home Schoolin...