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markpkessinger

(8,401 posts)
Mon Sep 2, 2013, 12:50 AM Sep 2013

To the purveyors of the "moral obscenity" argument in favor of intervention...

. . . If you are going to embrace Secretary Kerry's (and the President's) position that the U.S. must take action in Syria because it is a "moral obsceniy," then you should be prepared to argue that the U.S. must intervene in all cases of human rights abuse by governments around the world, be they ally or adversary. You should be prepared to make the case that we should spend whatever it takes to respond to all of these abuses, even if it means bankrupting ourselves in doing so. To embrace Kerry's argument, and to be unprepared to argue the logical extension of that argument to the many other instances of moral obscenity that occur around the world, you expose yourself as a rank hypocrite.

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To the purveyors of the "moral obscenity" argument in favor of intervention... (Original Post) markpkessinger Sep 2013 OP
this is not intervention KT2000 Sep 2013 #1
How you gonna prevent chem weapon use? HooptieWagon Sep 2013 #3
As of now, Obama KT2000 Sep 2013 #5
It is inherently and by definition an intervention fujiyama Sep 2013 #4
they have stopped for now KT2000 Sep 2013 #6
why ? just because we supported regime change with gaddafi JI7 Sep 2013 #2
A really bad argument on both sides quaker bill Sep 2013 #7

KT2000

(20,586 posts)
1. this is not intervention
Mon Sep 2, 2013, 02:50 AM
Sep 2013

to take sides. It is to stop the use of chemical weapons. The fact that Obama has taken a stand has caused them to stop - but for how long.

I do not understand the anger bordering on hatred that your post conveys. Surely people can disagree.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
3. How you gonna prevent chem weapon use?
Mon Sep 2, 2013, 03:33 AM
Sep 2013

First, they're highly mobile, all but impossible to target with missles.
Second, if you did hit them with a missle, they would explode and spread the gas...which is supposedly what we're trying to prevent.
Third, it would take troops on the ground, 50,000+, to locate and destroy the weapons. Are you prepared to do that?

KT2000

(20,586 posts)
5. As of now, Obama
Mon Sep 2, 2013, 04:32 AM
Sep 2013

has stopped them by standing up to them. You don't know what they plans are. I seriously doubt they would target the chemical weapons unless they are isolated.

I think you are getting ahead of yourself because no one has stated the plans yet.

fujiyama

(15,185 posts)
4. It is inherently and by definition an intervention
Mon Sep 2, 2013, 03:54 AM
Sep 2013

How do we simply go in and "stop the use of chemical weapons"? Somehow, I'm supposed to believe the US government - which just ten years ago lied through its teeth about WMD in Syria's neighboring country now knows exactly where all chemical weapons are in Syria? Are they north and south, east and west of Damascus or Homs or Allepo? Somehow a few Tomohawk cruise missiles will miraculously target just the chemical weapons in that country and avoid all population centers?

I really don't know how this remains limited. So say we do go in and in these strikes, we take out a few of Assad's top generals. Assad gets even more brutal on civilians in Syria - thousands more are shelled. Maybe they aren't being gassed but even more die. But wait, we can't take him out right? We've agreed not to go in there for regime change. Or what if he gets really pissed and then decides, fuck it - Hezbollah can really go at it in Israel. The one thing so called limited strikes won't do is stop any of the atrocities taking place and bring Assad to any sort of negotiating table. And even if it did, what is the end outcome? Do we end up with the Islamic Republic of Syria, ruled by an ally of Al Qaeda?

So in the end, what have we accomplished? Until both sides over there realize they love their children more than they hate their enemy more bloodshed will follow.

KT2000

(20,586 posts)
6. they have stopped for now
Mon Sep 2, 2013, 04:50 AM
Sep 2013

because Obama stood up to them and brought it to the world's attention.
The stated reason Syria maintains their stockpile of chemical weapons is to use against Israel if they are nuked. Their storage sites are known but I doubt they would be targets unless they are isolated.

What happens if the attacks on the Syrian people continue until all in the opposition are dead from nerve gas poisoning? We would be witnesses to that.

There are no "happy answers" in this. The world said that chemical weapons are off the table, Syria signed on long ago but has not signed on to the inspections. There have to be red lines sometimes.
Your last sentence is spot on.

JI7

(89,262 posts)
2. why ? just because we supported regime change with gaddafi
Mon Sep 2, 2013, 03:00 AM
Sep 2013

does it mean we have to support it with assad ?

why does it all have to be the same ?

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
7. A really bad argument on both sides
Mon Sep 2, 2013, 07:17 AM
Sep 2013

First, killing people with chemicals is no more or less moral than killing them with bullets. Both are simply fully immoral and entirely obscene.

On the other side of the coin, "if you do that violence then you must do this violence as well" arguments are completely lame. Being consistent in the application of violence does not make it moral.

Now I actually get why people might support use of force to stop chem weapons from being used. These weapons are somewhat indiscriminate, which is mostly why organized armies stopped using them on each other. You will hear that they stopped out of concern for morality, but I think they stopped mostly because they found much more effective ways to be lethal.

An indiscriminate weapon like CW is useful in one way. It is useful in holding the people of a nation hostage. Using them it is easy to kill large numbers of bystanders at a moment's notice in a somewhat arbitrary and random fashion. The regime can simply adopt a counter punch strategy, if you attack us, we will drop a few of these in your neighborhoods so while you might live on the battlefield, your friends, neighbors, spouse, and children die.

It is not unreasonable to want to put a stop to this. The question is how.

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