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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDid anyone else notice this? Obama just said that it may have been an unauthorized strike, here:
The transcript of the President's press conference at the G20 Summit was just released. It's unfortunately a very long transcript and he went on at length about the situation in Syria and the Administration's plans for dealing with it. However, there appears to be a very, very important acknowledgement by Obama buried in the tail end of his statements.
Toward the end of his statements and questions & answers with reporters at the G20 Summit, in response to cross-talk with "Major Garrett": http://swampland.time.com/2013/09/06/admitting-public-opposition-on-syria-obama-vows-to-push-forward-transcript/
Major Garrett?
QUESTION: Thank you, Mr. President.
Those of us who remember covering your campaign remember you saying that militarily when the United States acts, its not just important what it does, but how it goes about doing it. And that even when America sets its course, its important to engage the international community and listen to different ideas even as its pursuing that action.
I wonder if you leave here and return to Washington, seeing the skepticism there, hearing it here, with any different ideas that might delay military action. For example, some in Congress have suggested giving the Syrian regime 45 days to sign the Chemical Weapons Convention, get rid of its chemical stockpiles, do something that would enhance the international sense of accountability for Syria, but delay military action.
Are you, Mr. President, looking at any of these ideas? Or are we on a fast track to military action as soon as Congress renders its judgment one way or the other?
OBAMA: I am listening to all these ideas. And some of them are constructive. And Im listening to ideas in Congress and Im listening to ideas here. Look, I want to repeat here. My goal is to maintain the international norm on banning chemical weapons. I want that enforcement to be real. I want it to be serious. I want people to understand that gassing innocent people, you know, delivering chemical weapons against children, is not something we do.
Its prohibited in active wars between countries. We certainly dont do it against kids. And weve got to stand up for that principle. If there are tools that we can use to ensure that, obviously my preference would be, again, to act internationally in a serious way and to make sure that Mr. Assad gets the message.
Im not itching for military action. Recall, Major, that I have been criticized for the last couple of years by some of the folks who are now saying they would oppose these strikes, for not striking. And I think that I have a well-deserved reputation for taking very seriously and soberly the idea of military engagement.
So, we will look at these ideas. So far at least, I have not seen ideas presented that, as a practical matter, I think would do the job. But, you know, this is a situation where part of the reason I wanted to foster debate was to make sure that everybody thought about both the ramifications of action and
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: So currently the the only way to enforce this international norm is militarily and even giving the Assad regime extra time would not achieve your goals.
OBAMA: What Im saying, Major, is that so far what weve seen is a escalation by the Assad regime of chemical weapons use. Youll recall that several months ago I said we now say with some confidence that at a small level Assad has used chemical weapons. We not only sent warnings to Assad, but we demarched, meaning, you know, we sent a strong message through countries that have relationships with Assad, that he should not be doing this. And rather than hold the line, we ended up with what we saw on August 21st.
So, this is not as if we havent tested the proposition that the guy or at least generals under his charge can show restraint when it comes to this stuff. And theyve got one of the largest stockpiles in the world. But, I want to emphasize, that we continue to consult with our international partners. Im listening to Congress. Im not just doing the talking. And if there are good ideas that are worth pursuing, then Im going to be open to them.I will take, last question, Tangy, AFP.So, this is not as if we havent tested the proposition that the guy or at least generals under his charge can show restraint when it comes to this stuff.
That sounds like an acknowledgement to me that Obama is fully aware of the possibility -- perhaps, probability -- that the attack of August 21 was NOT ordered by Assad or the other civilian leaders, but may have been an unauthorized lauch by the military commander of the unit that carried out the attack.
So, we must ask, how can he expect that it will be either effective or even morally justifiable for the US to launch a punative attack against the Syrian government with the goal of regime change under these circumstances?
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)'We now say with some confidence that at a small level Assad has used chemical weapons."
Some confidence? He's willing to engage in military action on what is effectively a "hunch?"
No one has proved that Assad (or anyone in his regime) have used chemical weapons. In fact, the evidence is murky, with all sides claiming the other did it.
Fuck, Obama, do the right thing!
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)http://www.democracynow.org/2013/9/5/rep_alan_grayson_on_syria_congress
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I mean this is basically a hunch. We're going to go to war on a hunch.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You do understand the difference don't you?
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)"Let's eat, grandma."
Which one is going to live?
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)it was in reference to the tone of the post, not to the "do the right thing" comment made earlier.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I didn't say, "Fuck Obama."
I said, "Fuck, Obama" as in I'm addressing him. In English grammar, you use a comma to denote the person you are addressing.
There's a difference. It can possibly save lives:
"Let's eat Grandma."
"Let's eat, Grandma."
Commas, 11 Bravo, save lives.
Edit: Ironically it was grammar and place italics.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)dkf
(37,305 posts)There is no one else giving us an insight into what is even out there.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)any evidence about ASSAD and the Gassing.
Yet Putin delivered a 100 Page Assessment of the earlier Gassing Incidents to the United Nations in July!
But our Congresscritters get 4 Pages...and some get a "special insider briefing?"
WTF is this?
jmowreader
(50,560 posts)Assad's going to have to arrest the guy responsible and turn him over to an international tribunal.
If Assad was responsible, HE needs to surrender to an international tribunal.
If Assad did it and gives the world a big "fuck you, you can't do shit to me," SEAL Team 6 needs to visit Mr. Assad and introduce him to Mr. Forty-Four.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)have voice intercepts of his conversation that night with the Syrian Minister of Defense, whose reaction to news of the attack has been characterized by western intelligence analysts as "panicked." The Minister then ordered the attack to stop. This is potentially among the most significant evidence of who ordered what, and who is culpable. The Obama Admin, needs to release those intercepts and the rest of the data on which it has based its assumptions.
dkf
(37,305 posts)It could be we never get this. Can you imagine world outrage?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)that this might be a path. He could back off of a strike by offering that the major attack was not sanctioned by Assad but was commenced by a commander without authorization. He could demand that Assad hand over the general or commander that did it as well as get an indictment at The Hague court for Crimes Against Humanity.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)not gonna happen
dkf
(37,305 posts)It will take a whistleblower for us to get this info. They will NEVER admit it.
wandy
(3,539 posts)In spite of my bad fealings about war propaganda, the M.I.C, the empirical president, it is just possible that Obama is working this problem. Working it in a very different way than George Bush or any number of his predecessors.
Where would Raygun have had this by now. Where would Romney have led us.
Obama's next move will be critical to his presidency. It will be critical to all of us.
We can hope.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)bocephus0706
(27 posts)you are now on the side of Assad? you are kidding right
leveymg
(36,418 posts)go to war over it.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Man. They'll let anyone join DU these days.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Xithras
(16,191 posts)I can't stand Assad, and I'd like to see him in a prison cell.
I can't stand Islamists, and I'd like to see all of them sitting in prison cells.
Historically, the Islamists have a far worse track record at protecting the rights, freedoms, and cultures of the people under their power than Assad has. That's why I can't support them.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)I think Obama and Kerry see this as saving lives, but I don't think it'll be that easy. it could get very bad quickly... or work out as planned. we don't know and we're panicked over the whole ordeal. no one knows how it will shake out.
Russia and china will veto any UN thing, so forget about that.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)But thanks for playing.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)haele
(12,660 posts)Every action, every choice, needs to be crystal clear and thought through. You've got six or seven Mob bosses just waiting to follow you in after you oust the one in charge. Nothing's going to change except for the worse if you look at things like it's a freaking two-sided game.
So what do you do?
Sometimes, letting the "bad guy" you know hang around is better than the mob rule that follows won't result in four or five "worse guys" taking charge and killing/destroying even more innocents. Especially if you have "your people" - fellow westerners who are looking for cheap and quick money, supposedly at your back salavating for a chance to profit off the distruction that will follow.
This is not only about a dictator with ties to Iran, it's about:
1) Secular v. Sectarian (not just a "Democratic" government v. aTheocracy, it includes Islam v. Christian v. Jew v. Zororastian v. Atheist as what defines "a citizen"
2) Shia'a v. Sunni - will Iran or the Emerates rule Syria?
3) Infrastructure - especially Water and Oil Delivery - Syria is smack-dab in the center of the Middle East, when it comes to trade and resources. As the climate changes, the control of Syria will become very important to it's neighbors.
4) Controlling Oil costs and Profiteering- Investors who want to keep the price high and the amount available low, and investors in arms who want conflict to continue.
To most of the "Participants" of this conflict, the People, Artifacts, and Culture of Syria don't matter. It's who controls all of the above.
There is no side. There is only finding a path through the maze that does the least amount of damage the the people.
The time to help the rebels with arms, "advisors", bombing - tools for warfare was 8 months to a year ago. Now is too late, and the only responsible action for the Syrian population would be humanitarian.
Unless, of course, you're all into making a shitload of money for multi-national companies, disaster capitalists and political vultures who feast on War Porn...
If you're into that, well, yeah. Then this whole situation is just a football game. Us v. Them.
Haele
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)100,000 dead, 2 million displaced but its not Assad's fault.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)that are capable of launching chemical weapons.
It doesn't matter if Assad ordered it or if some rouge General did. We don't have anyone in the room and will never know the answer to exactly what happened.
The targets are the weapons that are capable of deploying the chemicals. No matter who ordered it, those are what need to be destroyed and that is how you deter the further use of them.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Very little damage will actually be done by Tomahawk cruise missiles on anything related to the delivery devices for Sarin gas of the type actually used on 8/21.
It will be on fixed sites and infrastructure because the delivery devices for these crude homemade gas rockets are simple metal tubes loaded on the back of small trucks, of the type that both the military and the opposition are known to use.
There is no Cape Kennedy complex in Syria form which these things were launched that cruise missiles might have any effect on.
In fact, "Limited air-strikes" is just another term for imposing a no-fly zone, as most targets will be the Syrian Air Force and air defense installations that can't be moved around easily.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Air strikes will not be able to destroy Assad's chemical weapons capability. It will require a full-scale invasion.
http://www.salon.com/2013/09/04/study_to_destroy_syria_chemical_weapons_boots_on_the_ground_needed/
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Nobody claimed that the capability would be destroyed
BlueMTexpat
(15,370 posts)Blushing, no doubt.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)mrchips
(97 posts)Have the "rogue generals" been fired? A massive attack on civilians using sarin gas was launched by Assad's forces. He has had ample opportunity to address the issue and has done squat. Maybe the lives of four hundred children don't matter to you, but if the banned gas attack isn't responded to how many more innocent lives lost in the choking death dance of sarin will you carry to your grave for having done nothing to prevent it?
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)I agree with you tho - mrchips
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)But since they didn't, since Assad has a military quite ready to carry out orders to deploy chemical weapons and offer him no check whatsoever, the last option available is a limited strike.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)And if this was a mistake or some errant general taking this action on his own, why isn't Assad telling us this?
uhnope
(6,419 posts)Ocelot
(227 posts)As more is learned, his entire case for striking Syria seems to be a very unimaginative rehashing of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld's case for war with Iraq. It's becoming clear that our President has morphed into an unapologetic, pathological liar like his predecessor.
http://www.alternet.org/world/syria-intervention-plan-fueled-oil-interests-not-chemical-weapon-concern
"We dont know what the chain of custody is. This couldve been an Israeli false flag operation, it couldve been an opposition in Syria... or it couldve been an actual use by Bashar Assad. But we certainly dont know with the evidence weve been given. And what Im hearing from the intelligence community is that that evidence is really flakey," retired Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell's former chief of staff, told Cenk Uygur in an interview with Current TV.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Israel-may-be-behind-Syrian-chemical-weapons-use-312051
That pattern was particularly clear in the case of the intelligence gathered by covert means. The summary claims, "We intercepted communications involving a senior official intimately familiar with the offensive who confirmed that chemical weapons were used by the regime on August 21 and was concerned with the U.N. inspectors obtaining evidence."
That seems to indicate that U.S. intelligence intercepted such communiations. But former British Ambassador Craig Murray has pointed out on his blog August 31 that the Mount Troodos listening post in Cyprus is used by British and U.S. intelligence to monitor all radio, satellite and microwave traffic across the Middle East and that almost all landline telephone communications in this region is routed through microwave links at some stage [and] picked up on Troodos.
All intelligence picked by the Troodos listening post is shared between the U.S. and British intelligence, Murray wrote, but no commmunictions such as the ones described in the U.S. intelligence summary were shared with the British Joint Intelligence Organisation. Murray said a personal contact in U.S. intelligence had told him the reason was that the purported intercept came from the Israelis. The Israeli origin of the intelligence was reported in the U.S. press as well, because an Israeli source apparently leaked it to a German magazine.
The clumsy attempt to pass off intelligence claimed dubiously by the Israelis as a U.S. intercept raises a major question about the integrity of the entire document. The Israelis have an interest in promoting a U.S. attack on Syria, and the authenticity of the alleged intercept cannot be assumed. Murray believes that it is fraudulent.
http://truth-out.org/news/item/18559-how-intelligence-was-twisted-to-support-an-attack-on-syria
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Ocelot
(227 posts)Sorry that your wishes to spread further death & devastation around the mid-East seem to have hit a snag with the vast majority of the world AND the American people.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Ocelot
(227 posts)You're about as eloquent as Jerry Garcia's guitar solos were concise.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)and your post is still a crock o shit
ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
.
.
If so, there is something very wrong with Mr. President.
Barack Obama is an experienced and well educated/seasoned lawyer,
long before he ever entered the race and won the Presidency.
His repetition of the phrase "you know" throughout his responses indicates to me he is under extreme stress,
or not as eloquent as he thinks he is.
Something smells.
CC
dionysus
(26,467 posts)and blindsided that he doesn't have the support. I wish we could stop it too but a limited missile strike won't work, and an invasion is off the table... so he's flummoxed...
blm
(113,065 posts)with SOME dignity intact, and I think that would definitely be the best case scenario all around.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)problem, just further metasticizes it. That's why the Admin. has said all along that removing Assad wasn't the US goal.