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uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 07:06 PM Sep 2013

I do not understand the Westlake Mall massacre.

I found this interesting nytimes article which explains some of the background and fears of what may happen, but I do not understand how murdering all these people will help anything. Yes, expats may stay away because of this. Yes, Shabab may have shown it can terrorize a whole lot of people.

And yes, there are too many people in Africa that have far too little.

But I do not understand how this will help. Desperate people do desperate things, but I do not understand how this will help. Is it not meant to help or change anything? To just lash out? I don't get it.

So many stories of true heroism have come out the last week. And so much awfulness.

Was this meant to improve conditions for the area or just a group showing they can hurt a lot of people?


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/sunday-review/making-sense-of-kenyas-westgate-mall-massacre.html?pagewanted=all

Ominous Signs, Then a Cruel Attack
Making Sense of Kenya’s Westgate Mall Massacre

THIS was the attack we all knew was coming.
(clip)
For the past seven years that I’ve lived in Kenya, I’ve been following two very different story lines that represent what’s happening in contemporary Africa and that collided that fateful day in Westgate. The first is of the dramatic expansion of Africa’s middle class, now more than 300 million people, and perhaps there’s no better place on the continent to watch this than in Nairobi, where new office blocks are rising above the tin-shack slums, new bistros are popping up all over the place and taxi drivers are getting on Facebook. It’s essentially Africa joining the world.
(clip)
But at the same time that I’ve been chronicling this rapid, almost dizzying development, I’ve become a specialist in despair. Sub-Saharan Africa is still home to some of the poorest, most violent countries on earth: the Democratic Republic of Congo, Somalia, South Sudan, the Central African Republic — places where the government is a ghost and civilians are stalked, raped and killed by men with guns. You have no idea how many guns are in these places, and at the end of the day, all that separates Kenya from Somalia, the promising and the broken, is a thin line in the desert that usually goes unpatrolled. To live the good life here, to take the kids to the water park and hang out in new wine bars while a medieval mix of famine, plagues, warlords, pirates and sudden death seethed next door, did seem too good to be true.
(clip)
I had this sinking feeling that when the Shabab finally gave up any hope of ruling Somalia, they would strike Nairobi. They had been reluctant before, because Nairobi was their back office, where the white-collar Shabab lived, the accountants, financiers and logisticians. The instant they hit here, the Shabab leaders knew, Nairobi’s Somali community would fall under such intense pressure and scrutiny that it would be impossible to do business....(much more)
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I do not understand the Westlake Mall massacre. (Original Post) uppityperson Sep 2013 OP
It's terrorism. They want all non-muslims to be terrified and perhaps convert out of fear. kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #1
i think most muslims are terrified too. they fear backlash from the rest of us La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2013 #4
they have been terrorising other Muslims in Somaila already JI7 Sep 2013 #5
I don't think it has anything to do with conversions. morningfog Sep 2013 #12
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2013 #24
it is desperation, they have been losing power and popularity JI7 Sep 2013 #2
So is it striking out or is it supposed to get them more popularity? Power I can see as it takes uppityperson Sep 2013 #6
They don't care about popularity.. they want power. n/t SoCalDem Sep 2013 #8
isn't all terrorism to a degree meaningless? it seems to only make meaning to those who are involved La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2013 #3
Angry men who are convinced that modernity/western-ways are responsible SoCalDem Sep 2013 #7
Terror is meant to hurt. GeorgeGist Sep 2013 #9
That is the thing. How does it help their cause at all? uppityperson Sep 2013 #11
They have a twitter following. Their comments get reported in international media now. morningfog Sep 2013 #13
There's two basic strategies that could be going on there Posteritatis Sep 2013 #21
thank you for this, I really appreciate your taking the time to write it out. uppityperson Sep 2013 #22
Happy to help! (nt) Posteritatis Sep 2013 #26
Islamic fundamentalism spread, encouraged and ultimately metastisized by the Saudis JCMach1 Sep 2013 #10
+1 YoungDemCA Sep 2013 #25
They thought they could stop Kenya's intervention in Somalia frazzled Sep 2013 #14
Thank you, that is my take on it all also. Senseless in reality. uppityperson Sep 2013 #15
The root cause is Religion FUMCSDLCBDPOS Sep 2013 #16
Religious fundamentalists are behind it, but what is their purpose in doing things like these? uppityperson Sep 2013 #18
Religious fundamentalism is relatively new. Before it used to be marxists, maoists, nationalists CJCRANE Sep 2013 #20
While this attack seems to have captured the attention of the world.......... 4bucksagallon Sep 2013 #17
I've been avoiding news recently as too many awful things going on, or rather being picky, had not uppityperson Sep 2013 #19
That is a fairly good source........ 4bucksagallon Sep 2013 #23
 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
1. It's terrorism. They want all non-muslims to be terrified and perhaps convert out of fear.
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 07:10 PM
Sep 2013

It's idiotic and won't work, BTW. It will merely harm the Kenyan economy.

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
4. i think most muslims are terrified too. they fear backlash from the rest of us
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 07:13 PM
Sep 2013

and they are just as afraid of these people

JI7

(89,259 posts)
5. they have been terrorising other Muslims in Somaila already
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 07:15 PM
Sep 2013

which is why many left including to Kenya where many have made pretty nice lives.

but even in Somalia they have been losing which is why they targeted Kenya. Kenya is one of the nations assisting Somalia in fighting terrorists in Somalia.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
12. I don't think it has anything to do with conversions.
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 09:44 PM
Sep 2013

I agree that harming the Kenyan economy is likely and likely a reason for the attack.

Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #1)

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
6. So is it striking out or is it supposed to get them more popularity? Power I can see as it takes
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 07:15 PM
Sep 2013

only 1 asshole to do a lot of harm. I guess I am used to looking for a positive outcome and in this case it may be they are looking only to be assholes? To show they can do things like this?

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
3. isn't all terrorism to a degree meaningless? it seems to only make meaning to those who are involved
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 07:12 PM
Sep 2013

in perpetrating it.

take for example 9/11. what did that achieve for al quaeda. before that they had all of afghanistan with almost no pushback, after that they are all in hiding

i think complex psychological issues (sociopaths/psychopaths) combined with a lack of basic need fulfillments, plus a dose of religious fanaticism creates incidents that literally make no sense to the rest of us

SoCalDem

(103,856 posts)
7. Angry men who are convinced that modernity/western-ways are responsible
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 07:18 PM
Sep 2013

for their unhappiness...and many of them are taught that only THEY can change things by killing the infidels

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
13. They have a twitter following. Their comments get reported in international media now.
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 09:46 PM
Sep 2013

They will probably get more recruits.

I think any help that these bring to their cause, as it is, is short term, because it will also bring closer attention from western intelligence and military powers, who were already actively watching.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
21. There's two basic strategies that could be going on there
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 01:46 PM
Sep 2013

The first is that if they do something huge and ugly and horrifying that kills a lot of people in a mediagenic fashion, their targets - in this case, the Kenyan people - will decide that the costs of intervening in Somalia aren't worth what the region is getting out of it, and will pressure their government to get out of there. It's a standard attrition-warfare sort of thing and boils down to "our willingness to stand and keep hurting you is greater than your willingness to come over here and keep hurting us. Find a new hobby or we'll make this ours."

As far as Somali militants are concerned this is a very successful strategy; the general feeling among the ones who were around at the time is that they successfully routed the United States with it in the 1990s, so a third-rate local power like Kenya should be as doable, in their eyes. Whether the Kenyan government will back off as opposed to ramping up their efforts remains to be seen of course, but you can be certain the general public's having some pretty heated conversations about whether it's worth it.



The second is far more complex: it's something called politique du pire. The rough translation would be "the politics of making things worse." It's been one of the standard theoretical underpinnings of a lot of guerilla or terrorist movements since the 1960s.

The general idea behind PDP is similar to the first one - you're trying to bring about a change in where the public stand with regards to the government through violence. However, the idea here is that it's the government's behaviour the attackers are trying to influence. Whether you see terrorism as a military/strategic threat (like the United States or, I guarantee you now, Kenya, does) or as a criminal matter (as most European countries do), the fact remains that it's pretty hard to prevent dedicated ones from doing at least something without stretching the limits of what it's okay for governments to do.

With this approach, making the governments push things too far is actually the goal. By hitting a target with lots of flashy horror, a movement can make a government (or its people) desperate enough to start doing some very draconian things in the interests of safety. This can be through becoming increasingly totalitarian at home, or through dishing out its own flashy horror by attacking the home territory of the terrorist organization. In both cases the planned goal is similar: push the government far enough that the people it is acting around no longer find it acceptable, provoking them to act against it en masse.

If the government's gone too far in its own home, then perhaps it will provoke the people into trying to take it out somehow, possibly replacing it with a government more amenable to the attackers' goals. (You generally don't overthrow a government to replace it with a similar one, after all - you're reacting to what it is and want that to change.) If the government's doing the same thing abroad, then the same principle holds, only it's another government that's the target of the uprising. In this case if Kenya ramped up their operations against al-Shabaab in support of the Somali government, the goal would be turning the last fourteen or so Somalis who already don't support it against Mogadishu. There's a final possible outcome, where they're also trying to provoke allies of the government in question in the general interest of "how dare you support these monsters?" - this sort of thing went on in a lot of Middle Eastern countries that were supporting operations against Iraq and Afghanistan, for example.

That last option is playing a longer game than the others. It's probably what bin Laden had in mind when he attacked the United States - provoke them into hitting a Muslim country, outrage the Islamic street with American atrocities, and turn them against their own local governments for supporting this. In practice it has not worked particularly well, but it was a toss-up in the first place since nobody tried it on that kind of scale.

The PDP approach in general doesn't have a terribly stellar success rate, but it's appealing to a lot of groups because of the times where it has succeeded (or come close - "they almost did it, we just have to do X and we'll get the rest of the way!&quot , and also because it has a clearer progression and goal than "if we punch them hard enough they'll give up," which isn't really an option groups that aren't conventional armies have in the first place. While it doesn't often change governments, it does sometimes put enormous pressure on them, which can be a benefit to the group launching attacks in the first place.

Other times, of course, it backfires entirely: they attack the government, the government gets replaced with some totalitarian dictatorship in order to remove the militant threat, and then, well, proceeds to capably do exactly that...

Anyway, that's probably more of an overview than you wanted with the question in the first place, but it's still a start. A lot of ink has been spilled over the generations about this sort of thing, both by people trying to figure it out and by the actual guerillas and terrorists themselves, and the simple question of "why would you do that?" can snowball into surprisingly varied schools of thought pretty quickly.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
22. thank you for this, I really appreciate your taking the time to write it out.
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 05:29 PM
Sep 2013

I am reading it quickly, will come back and look more later. Thank you, seriously. I tire of short quick bits that contribute but do not answer they "but why" and "what are they trying to accomplish".

JCMach1

(27,562 posts)
10. Islamic fundamentalism spread, encouraged and ultimately metastisized by the Saudis
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 07:50 PM
Sep 2013

has created conditions where Muslims are actively hostile against any non-Muslims. This is especially true where secular governments have dissolved and where the Saudis put-in the most money... Pakistan, Egypt and the whole N. Africa region especially (but not limited to those areas).

Hundreds have died in Muslim vs. Christian clashes in Kenya over the last 12 months. The level of inhumanity in these attacks has been horrific. Shahbab has systematically fueled much of the violence that has gone on.

Until we directly take the Saudis to task for what they have done, it will continue as long as the money and the intolerance flows.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
25. +1
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 07:06 PM
Sep 2013

One of the most oppressive and restrictive regimes on the planet, the society that produced the majority of Al-Qaeda terrorists (including bin Laden himself, and 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers ) and where an immense flow of money to said terrorists, and others who have caused the deaths of thousands of Americans and non-Americans alike, has come from...

...and they are a key U.S. ally in the region.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
14. They thought they could stop Kenya's intervention in Somalia
Fri Sep 27, 2013, 11:32 PM
Sep 2013

That's what this was ostensibly about. Somalia hasn't had a central government in years, and various factions have overtaken different areas. Kenya became involved in 2011.

Somehow, killing ordinary citizens at a shopping mall (rather than, say, attacking the Kenyan troops back in Somalia) was supposed to help this group's cause. I seriously doubt it. Terrorism is not just bad because it kills indiscriminately and terrorizes; it's bad because it does so with no chance whatsoever that its goals will be achieved. Indeed, it only makes the attainment of those goals worse. It kills for nothing.

 

FUMCSDLCBDPOS

(41 posts)
16. The root cause is Religion
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 05:53 AM
Sep 2013

Religious fundamentalism to be precise.

Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc… all are guilty, all commit terrorism in the name of their god and religion.

Eliminate religion; eliminate many problems in the world.

Religion has been the most destructive and most devise thing ever invented by man.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
18. Religious fundamentalists are behind it, but what is their purpose in doing things like these?
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 11:51 AM
Sep 2013

Do they hope to convert people or kill all who do not believe like they do?

There is no way to "eliminate religion" as people will always look for the larger why and reasons. Figuring out how to eliminate Fundamentalism, why people turn fundamentalist, now that is a good goal.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
20. Religious fundamentalism is relatively new. Before it used to be marxists, maoists, nationalists
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 12:24 PM
Sep 2013

fascists etc.

Just think of all the revolutionaries, terrorists and freedom fighters of the 60s and 70s sporting berets.

Both christian and muslim fundamentalism began to grow in the 80s and picked up speed in the 21st century.

Some other form of rebellion will become fashionable at some point. It might take a few decades though.

4bucksagallon

(975 posts)
17. While this attack seems to have captured the attention of the world..........
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 07:17 AM
Sep 2013

Has anyone heard or seen any news about the attack in Zamboanga, Mindanao? If so I have not seen much about it here. The MNLF a splinter group of the MILF laid siege to the city and it is still ongoing some 15 days later. This group, the MNLF, are also terrorists they held hostages and used them as human shields against the army and police. So far at least 128 people have died and like I said it is still ongoing. Why no news about this, no idea anyone care to guess?
Okay it is just being reported as having ended, they are chasing the rebels into the mangrove swamps north of the city and will have to do a sweep for booby traps and unexploded ordinance.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
19. I've been avoiding news recently as too many awful things going on, or rather being picky, had not
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 11:54 AM
Sep 2013

heard of this going on, sorry. I see links to Mindanao Examiner, is this a decent source? Also found this one http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/497087/mopping-up-operations-under-way-in-zamboanga

I do not understand people a lot of the time.

4bucksagallon

(975 posts)
23. That is a fairly good source........
Sat Sep 28, 2013, 06:58 PM
Sep 2013

I use http://www.zamboangatimes.ph/ as a source for that region and others for other regions of Mindanao. Mindanao is divided into 6 administrative (political) regions each with it's own set of terrorists. Davao City proper being the safest place to be.
The rebels were hoping to start a far wider conflict but the MILF, Al Quiada and all the other splinter groups decided they did not want into this fight. My fear is there will be a war here, but it will mostly take place in the Zamboanga region, the rest of Mindanao will be subject to terrorism, bombings, small scale attacks and kidnappings. Such a shame for such a lovely place.

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