All my information is already on the Intertubes. AOL, AT&T, Google, Amazon, Experian, TransUnion, Equifax, Vons, Ralph's, Stater Bros, DMV, CREDO, Vonage, and so many other commercial enterprises have all my information and already "spy" on me more intrusively than the NSA ever could.

or become distracted by the games in the DC about this huge scandal.

South American and European countries certainly have not been ignoring it.

Now they are working on dumping the US Internet companies, like Google to protect their citizens from the illegal spying revealed by the leaks.

This is truly a good result. Not only that but while our government was busy playing game here, other countries were pushing for laws to control these kinds of violations of people's right to privacy.

See, the rest of the world doesn't share the view that privacy is something to dismiss as important. Here shamefully we have lost our understanding of democracy, but not elsewhere.

I believe this week eg, S. America moved forward with the protections of their citizens' privacy from US Spying Eyes.

The majority of Americans shrug their shoulders by the NSA "spying" because we live in the real world; the world where we KNOW that every tidbit of our private information is already public to commercial interests and gov't interests, thanks, in part, to the Interwebs.

So for the majority of Americans, this is a "meh" moment. For the easily excited and riled up, this is just more to get excited and riled up about.

and no matter how many times you repeat the meme that no one cares about it you are not speaking truth.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/10/polls-continue-show-majority-americans-against-nsa-spying

all those conglomerates collecting their information and selling it, you'd get the same result.

I'm sorry, but I haven't met a single person in my personal life who gives two shiites about the NSA, and I've explained why in my previous post.

I stand by what I say. Take it or leave it.

Polling consistently shows that you are. I personally know lots of people both right and left who are pissed off as hell about it but that is anecdotal. The polls show widespread unease with it. I will leave what you say as it is not true according to the data out there. Repeating an untruth over and over will not make it true. I hope you are having a lovely weekend. We are finally getting a cool snappy autumn feeling in the air in the evenings which is just lovely.

But I've come to learn that polls are only as good as the variables they choose to use and they can be interpreted any which way the pollster wants.

For example, polls - according to Teapublicans and Republicans - consistently show that the majority of Americans dislike ObamaCare. That number includes, of course, Teabaggers who hate anything and everything this black Democrat in the WH does, and Liberals who don't care for the PPACA because it didn't go far enough. Two opposing ideologies with completely different reasons for disliking the PPACA, but that's not what's being reported. It's being touted as a total dislike of the PPACA in an attempt to attack this president's signature achievement in support of ProfitCare.

As I've explained before, ask the same question to the same people only replace the NSA with any governmental or commercial conglomerate we know and who collect our information (DMV, Verizon, IRS, AT&T, credit reporting agencies, etc.), and you'll get the same result.

My conclusion? It's a tempest in a teapot.

And, I wish I could participate in Saturday's protest.

Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 08:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Blind. Deaf. And Dumb.

Do you always attack people personally who don't agree with you or have an alternate opinion of yours? Isn't that what Teabaggers do?

I didn't start this, did I? Anyway, sorry I even got sucked into it.

You had perceived my post as "a bit passive-aggressive" and, clearly, not in line with your thinking, so therefore it rose to level to warrant a personal attack by you??

And yeah, you started making it personal, and yet it appears too much for you to have even the slightest remorse for doing so. You just dig in. It's the kind of behavior I expect from TeaBaggers, not from self-proclaimed Liberals. So yes, I can understand why you're now sorry you got "sucked into it".

All I said was that your remark reminded me of Agnew's "Silent Majority" line. Not a really biting personal attack, no more so than the condescending tone you set in your reaction against the OP. "Meh" is just watered down "who gives a shit." Your follow-on comment, "The majority of Americans shrug their shoulders by the NSA "spying" because we live in the real world" about NSA universal domestic spying is reminiscent of Spiro Agnew's infamous "Silent Majority" remark about silent support for the Vietnam War circa 1970. Both are reactionary and factually wrong, for the same reasons.

So it wasn't all you said. Perhaps you need to reread it. Stop dancing around it and making excuses. Own up to your mistake.

You responded with an innocent enough subject line, but then became personal in the body of your post by writing:

Okay, I sincerely apologize if you were truly insulted.

are just "nattering nabobs of negativism"

Jesus Christ! Why should trust anyone with all our most intimate information let alone a bunch of far right ideologues. Fuck. Are you crazy?

whistling past the reality based grave yard with absolutely no idea (apparently) how pervasive, sophisticated and in-depth the sociological and psychological profiling has become or what it may be used for in the coming years.

Some of us have to try and wade through the oceans of shot lapping at our feet. I am tired.

I simply stated that all this NSA hoopla is a tempest in a teapot.

It's a bit of a propaganda word/tool used to cut the legs out from under an argument, but it has no actual value. The OP is right on.

Compared to the more important issues this country has to face - slow job growth, Republican shutdowns, threats to the full faith and credit of the U.S., Republican threats to earned benefits, and above all else, the economy - the NSA "problem" is the least of our worries. It's not Limbaugh propaganda. It's spot on.

Juan Evo or Esai Manuel?

congress is taking action http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57604756-83/congress-unveils-bill-to-limit-nsas-powers/ because like you, they think it a tempest in a teapot.

What slays me the most is the way the minority in this instance https://www.google.com/search?q=polls+nsa+spying&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7RNQN_enUS484 seem to think they can belittle the majority with an opposing pov, like their fears are irrational and the illegalities/unconstitutionality of the programs are something to be pooh poohed.

The claim that those orgs can "spy" on you in ways the NSA can't is laughable, and the fact that none of them have any police powers as the gov does -- who aren't supposed to be "spying on you" -- makes a diff.

But hey, you cling to your right to post balderdash, as we will our right to more privacy than we've been given.

but my threads on the subject drop like a stone as well. Ever since ACA rollout and the shutdown, TPP and NSA seem to be in the "oh well" category.
I'm reasonably confident it's temporary.

I see a moment that must be taken and feel interest slipping away.

I hope you're correct.

I think the entire NSA thing has worldwide and lasting implications. There is significant pushback here in Europe, privacy has been front and center for months now in Germany, for example. Conservative daily Frankfurter Allgemeine has more info than US MSM combined.

But whether critical mass is achieved for pushback in the US - that's another matter. Even without ACA and shutdown, DU wasn't "up in arms" about the NSA thing. Recc'ing, yes, up in arms, no. And that's DU! Generally, I have the feeling that the US public has been rendered complacent / fearful / uninformed very, very succesfully.

But that doesn't mean that you should stop trying, and doing what you believe in.

here to stay, opposition is bipartisian and broadly-based. So don't worry - hang in there. This one ain't going away.

I'm trying anyway. Funny about how the people who complain about keyboard commandos are absent.

Oh, the NSA keeps our nation secure. Security is good.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

...but it's too far away, no buses from any cities out West.

Oh well. Kicking for visibility.

K&R

When/If a Republican gets in the executive office, then the NSA will become a target again. IMHO.

the 'guv-mint shutdown' drama was deliberately manufactured to insure
that the public opposition never got up enough steam to force the NSA
to operate in a manner more consistent with the US Constitution.

our Guv-mint would NEVER EVER think of pulling the wool
over the eyes of we the people. what was I thinking?


<-- THIS is sarcasm.

Case closed

The metadata copies that telecoms already keep is a non-issue for most outside the Internet discussion bubbles, IMO.

Any other spying is inadvertent such as when the NSA discovers the recipient of an email from a known terrorist is discovered to be American, at which point the information is handed over to the FBI.

Absent evidence to the contrary, I think most people in the country are more concerned about jobs and the economy instead of what some LE agency might be doing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

That whole done illegally thing. The fact is that we don't have enough evidence in the public domain to satisfy reasonable questions about what they are doing in a definitive manner.

This rally is to get something like the Church Commission to look at all the programs undertaken.

There are some things an intelligence agency needs to keep secret but they do tend to over-reach on that point.

More information disseminated in a responsible, straight-forward manner, and we will know where we stand.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

Yeah, I understand. Before spying on someone you are obliged to ask him for his ID first. If he is American you must let him go even if he is Al Capone's grandson and beneficiary himself!

. . .for them right now.

If you look at the votes in the House, most of the anti-NSA votes came from Tea Party reps.

I won't participate in anything that legitimizes anti-government ideology or anti-government groups and will live with the NSA so that taxes, environmental regulation, food inspection and other important government services do not come under attack by these same 'get government out of everything' groups with which we're engaged in an epic battle.

You would know this does nothing of the sort. You might have even stumbled on this:

... but now, I'm not finding any info, except the time will be from 9-12 PST. Are the West Coast events limited to "viewing parties"? (I live in San Francisco.)

Also... I'm still hoping Grayson will be hosting that NSA hearing (or whatever it is called) he had planned before it got preempted by the president's visit to the Hill. I do think the shutdown distracted from the attention on the NSA, but it hasn't been derailed.

Even the minor missteps that people are so freaked out over.

Obama is on it.

Have some faith.

This was bigger than Kennedy back in the day and I don't think it has shrunken since then.

This issue is bigger than any President and needs the sort of hearings the protest is demanding.

So faith? Nope, not so much, that's how we got here.

When I installed a baby monitor I got voices and noise that wasn't coming from my house. It was actually coming from the house behind me....they also had a baby monitor. So...am I spying on them...or is this situation a by-product of technology.

Maybe the NSA can't help but hear all that's going on because it's all out there. At any rate...the 99% of the public is completely harmless and, I'm sure, their phone calls and emails totally boring. Who would take the time, make the effort, pay the cost of hearing drivel. If anything, the noise is probably annoying interference to what they are really looking for.

I like my technology and wouldn't want to lose it just so that some guy at the NSA doesn't hear me giving my daughter grama's "secret" fried chicken recipe!

Thanks for the thread, hootinholler.

I suspect that the mass outrage that would be present were a repub president is muted because a Democrat is president. In other words, they trust the government will do the right thing because they trust Obama. Same with drones slaughtering hundreds and with secret kill lists and the ever-expanding power of the the office of the president and government in general. The government doesn't have to take our rights. Hell, in our blissful ignorance, self-induced for many, we'll just hand them over.

Not even those spelled out in the Constitution. A couple have even posted in this thread.

Scary.

on since its invention. Wake up. The rethugs are trying to get everyone upset with the constant bombardment of this crap. If you don't like it, stop putting stuff out there in cyberspace you don't want known. And stop talking on the phone. If you talk to a person face to face there's a 50-50 chance of it getting out. Make your choice.

Talking on the phone? E-mails? Without a valid court order, that damn well better be private!

and Republican Party is that we come to accept reactionary policies supported by a more centrist Administration - because we become preoccupied fighting off something even far more extreme.

But your point is most valid - of course - As former U.S. Senator Gary Hart said very recently, "It is not excessive to believe this growing, gargantuan, secret complex now represents the greatest threat to our freedom in the new twenty-first century."

Knowledge is power, and this is a very dangerous imbalance of power.

May all those who scoff at the gravity of the NSA's destruction of our Constitutional rights be pre-emptively caged the first time they dare to try to protest injustice (as many in recent times have been).

May all those who scoff be blackmailed into silence the next time they try to oppose injustice.

May all those who scoff be bullied into cooperation with injustice the next time they try to object to it.

Those who hold the keys of knowledge don't have to know your secret sins, in order to control you; they just have to know what/who you care about.

on. Nothing to see here.

I don't think that shutting down the government is the answer to any of our problems.

be foolish. Just a good bitchin target but wink wink we understand.

That's right. Before the U.S. had the NSA, equiped and manned as it is today, a gang of middle eastern thugs were able to carry out the most audacious and spectacular military operation, inside the heart of the United States, in plain sight, open skies, and visible by the whole population around New York State, and widely carried on worldwide television, in the middle of the day.

Osama bin Laden became by far the greatest hero to most people of the Middle East (and perhaps a substantial number of people inside the United States and the world over).

THIS WAS THE GREATEST AND MOST SHAMEFUL DEFEAT TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN HISTORY.

Those (too many, from what I am able to guess) who seem to hate the idea of the National Security Agency (NSA)' existence were probably deeply asleep and not in their wildest dreams did they ever imagine the tragedy and the shame that was upon the most poweful country in the world: The United States of America!

And the mighty Pentagon fell to the ground after a plane hit the most secure building in the U.S. on a bizarre blow to the most powerful country in the world.

The buildings have been repaired or reconstructed, but the shame remains as a reminder of the fact that even the United States of America is not exempt from the hatred and audacity of peoples who were born and have lived in a permanent state of war against America.

The threat is still very much alive, for the extremists never give up. Those Americans who loudly dismiss the need and role of the NSA, are bound to be haunted by the terror that the NSA could have avoided them.

Which haven't gotten much play here recently

So, yeah, everyone's moved on.

Yeah, it seems that Edward Snowden was able to fool the greatest power in the world. And he was able to make it to a corrupt, now second-rate rate military dictatorship, run by a now fancy-dressed despot, a relic of the Cold War, and feared ex-KGB operative Vladimir Putin.

No doubt Snowden is still being squeezed for anything the KGB-successor terror organization deems interesting. Such welcome party must have been lots of fun for the new recruit, while he gets duly acquainted with the tropical breeze in warm Moscow.

Snowden was undowbtedly expecting a hero's welcome, and now is still emptying his last of the Vodka six-pacs before reporting to his new boss.

Edward Snowden will be eventually forgotten just as every traitor always is. Homesickness will probably get the best out of him. He will probably find company there, despite Russian fémmes being slightly masculine-looking, tough and smelly. But they are better than nothing. Right, Ed?

Stop pissing on the parade!

bashing of our current President?

If you just want another sexy round of attacks against Obama, with another concurrent love-fest for now too-familiar jerks like Declan McCullagh or Manning or Assange or Greenwald or Snowden, then I'm really completely uninterested

On the other hand, if you have definite reform ideas with any genuine long-term political prospects, that people could actually organize around, I expect lots of DUers are probably still interested

Have a great day. I appreciate your decorum.

It helped step back and refrain from getting acrimonious.

Courtesy is contagious

I would love to hear how you really feel.

Would you please look at the petition and consider signing it?

If you can't come to DC, I guess I'll have to represent then.

It's possible, but I may not have time to put a proper sign together.

I'm surprised (and a little flattered) that you think this is my idea and sad that you think I am about bashing Obama rather than one who disagrees with policy. I seriously thought you knew me better than to think that.

Did you actually go see what this is about?

Did you look at the list of over 100 organizations (yes, a couple are libertarian leaning) who are coming together over this? You know that the ACLU loves to bash Obama. Apparently in your mind so does the American Library Association.

Did you look at the petition the rally is delivering to Congress? Please sign it, I'll save you a click to read it:

(And, it's not illegal for GCHQ to spy on US citizens, is it?).

The train of thought goes something like this: "What can I do, without drawing even more attention to myself? If I object, they'll think it's because I have something to hide...."

But when I posted the big WaPo article on the NSA vacuuming up everyone's email contact lists it disappeared after getting only two comments. There just wasn't enough oxygen with the debt limit and government shutdown. Before, that it was Syria, and some conveniently timed embassy closings. Hopefully, now, with these issues in the background, the focus can go back on our surveillance state.

Personally, I will never forget how hard Obama, Pelosi, and Feinstein fought to protect the NSA spying programs. It was shameful and disgraceful. We cannot let the moment pass without consequence.

You just aren't practical.

The secret police (NSA) are one of the few institutions that receive rigorous bi-partisan support.

And how predictable to fling "libertarian" and "tea partier" at those who do not like what the NSA is doing.

and blame it all on him. Hopefully I won't have to worry about it for a decade.

is very, very long. The shutdown (I'm still not back to work) and the NSA are merely two of them. I don't think people here have forgotten about the NSA. But LBN & GD contains several dozen topics on any given day and different topics cycle in and out.

but will have to be there in spirit.

But why put up with the Crap of the PUSH BACKS. We know who we are and what we do...!

It's the NEW WAY! Remember! Hillary and Bill are the Candidates for 2016! All else is irrelevant!

But "KNOWLEDGE IS KING! In the Land of the One-Eyed.

This year it's the Snowjob show, last year it was OWS, the year before it was a comedy jam on the general theme of "politics are dumb."

Coincidence?

Madison Avenue, print media and broadcast media to have the attention span of a fly.

There is always some new bright shining object to chase. As long as they can distract us with something else we will not focus on what is important.

I think intelligence officials realized that said data was going to be risk prone. And I think they let it happen on purpose. They determined, correctly, that apathy would be the main result, as well as determined that if they put in enough good stuff (stuff that was radicated in every release, like how many terrorists were caught and under what circumstances, etc), then the people would shrug and it would force the media to be careful with the dumps.

All we've got out of it is continued apathy, our turn into the UK is gradual, but happening.

nt