At Thu Oct 24, 2013, 10:28 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

The neighborhood has changed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3916631

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS:

Will shoot a kid... WTF?

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Oct 24, 2013, 10:32 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: over-the-top
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Kid had a real looking gun.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: By leaving it alone, you have the opportunity to call this comment for what it is... If this poster has history of saying something this stupid all the time, I would alert to the point of erecting a tombstone.

Thank you.

It will be reviewed by Admins though and I hope a pizza is delivered quickly.

That is why they got rid of the ToS alert... They will see it.

Bullies, stalkers, misogynists, racists, gun nutters, anti-choicers, rabid authoritarians and such all seem to be welcome here now. Oh, and let's not forget the libertarians, who the admin also can't seem to find the wherewithall to exclude.

DU definitely isn't what it used to be.

participating. It's hard to ignore this infiltration. It's also hard for some of us not to call out these vipers, but you run the risk of getting your own posts hidden. Maybe some progressives are staying away, thus making the problem worse percentagewise.

For years, when I read DU but wasn't a member, reading DU made me feel better. Now it frequently makes me feel worse.

and I mean NOTHING

This is someone you probably should shoot.

Can you tell by looking at him?

... I fucking shot him because you said I probably should.

You owe me a new computer monitor.

No Idea what that principle is, but hey. Gimme my monitor!

I alerted and got an immediate e-mail back saying a jury voted 3-3 to leave it. I wish they'd set up juries with an odd number so it's more definitive.

It makes no sense, especially when a tie means "leave it." Why doesn't a tie mean "hide it?"

in this situation it should be an odd number. in the real world it would be a hung jury and retrial.

And I would not hesitate shooting anyone who I thought was a threat. I know that neighborhood and while it is not Oakland or East LA, it can get a bit tough. There are gangs and grows all over the place.

You took my reply completely out of context.

Have you ever been shot at?

I sincerely doubt it.

I have.

He who hesitates is dead.

By the way, FUCK YOU does not play well on DU. I am not going to alert on this, as I figure you are a 20-something with not much of a grip on the Real World.

What would you have done in that situation, HotRod?

Probably shit your pants, that's what.

Those cops were watching some punk with (what they thought was) a serious firearm.

What would you have done?

Really, what would you have done at the moment?

the cop who shot the kid had poor training if he could not evaluate the situation better. He should not have left his car, and should have taken a defense position to evaluate and ask the kid to drop the toy gun.
The fact that you call the kid a punk for playing with a toy says a lot to me. I have to say, the real punks don't open carry in the hood. And the cop should have known that.

But I live in the Sonoma Valley.

That kid had been removed from SR schools, been placed in alternative schools and skipped.

This was an unfortunate incident and should never have happened. There are victims, all around.

The kid had to know the inherent danger of toting that thing, but he had removed the red nozzle in order to look bad-ass.

This whole thing is an across-the-lines tragedy.

A 13 year old doesn't inherently know the danger of anything, period.

I like how Oakland and East LA are really bad places, according to someone who admittedly lives in neither.

But it's okay, he lives with a hispanic woman.

He lives with an Hispanic woman. I bet he also has a great relationship with the blacks

This guy blaming the victim is way beyond the pale.

Look, out in N CA, kids know not to walk around with play firearms that look real. There are lots of illegal marihuana groves and people with machine guns protect them.

The day before this incident a kid killed his teacher and other kids not far from us in Sparks Nevada, which is not that far away. Anyone who thinks that this does not freak people out and create situations where one might overreact is simple.

I feel so very sorry for all involved, but I do hope that this idea that it is OK for anyone to walk around in a public place with an automatic weapon, or even any weapon, for that matter, ends once and for all. Really anyone doing that in today's environment is asking to be shot.

He's a kid!

Your post was beyond disgusting. It was inhuman. You should be ashamed.

when he was already down?

Behind a tire? Maybe a door?

7.62 will eat through that like nothing...

People just say things that have no bearing on reality...

says VOLUMES about that poster.

He is the very problem with Americans now. He creates a stereotype in his shriveled little mind to the point of believing that the world is shoot first.

Absolutely mind fucking boggling.

and using that term in reference to him (even from the perspective of the police) is pretty brutal.


He was just some poor kid screwing around with a toy. And kids don't know anything. He deserved better. Or didn't deserve this, at least.

the police clearly overreacted. No one should pick on the poor kid, but on the other hand, how come no one told him not to walk around pretending to carry an automatic weapon? And if he was told, why didn't he listen? Seriously, I don't understand, in the current climate, how anyone cannot realize the danger that they are putting themselves in.

So sad for all.

I would not have shot that kid.

The poster gave a reply directed towards me guessing my age was 20 some thing - as if that would make me naive or some thing.

I'm an Old man, Vietnam Vet, been shot at too many times to count, and of all my life's lessons one thing stands out more then any thing else - Kids get a break

Been depressed by the news (since early 90s) for years hearing about all the gang violence. Mostly kids shooting kids. Such a shame some one or some thing molds those young minds to think gun violence, killing people is ok. Really some of those kids are so young in their mind they are playing "Cops and Robbers"

Best case scenario by age 16, they spend the rest of their life in prison. So sad, such a waste of a life

I know we don't always agree but I know that kids aren't the same as adults. The key is that kids, they give off so much body language, it's as if they're telling you their intention. Adults do it, too, mind you, but they're not as easy to read as kids are.

These officers either weren't trained properly or failed their training or the training didn't account for behavioral differences between kids and adults; the most likely possibility. Either way they should be fired, particularly as witnesses said they literally executed this kid. I'd advocate murder charges if there are more than 1 people saying they shot an injured kid on the ground.

Just a friendly suggestion.

I suggest you get some help. You don't sound like a person who lives in a tough neighborhood; you sound paranoid to the point where it could be harmful to yourself and others. I am more afraid of you, sir, than I would be of a kid with an airsoft gun.

If I had a close relative who ever said some of this callous stuff about shooting little kids playing with obviously toy guns, I'd never speak to him or her again, even if it were a rich aunt or uncle certain to cut me from the will.

My personal opionion is that people who concur in what happened haven't earned their space on this planet. They'd sing a different tune if it had been their own child.

God save us from our saviors.

That this person sees him as a disposal punk at the hands of paranoid police officers who should never be entrusted with guns if they cannot assess with a clear head makes me ill.

You also shouted for joy when Zimmerman was freed after murdering a child?

You supported the killing of this child, whose only crime was to walk around brown, so you probably think that walking around black is a killable offense too.

And, not a wise move to bring the Zimmerman murder into this. You seem to be the only one making that connection. Besides both boys being innocent of any wrongdoing there is no reason for your rant. Good night.

Some punk? You are a disgusting individual.

As for being shot at - by my 20s, after "Getting back in the World" the sound of bullets whizzing through the air didn't increase my heart rate any more.

Don't exactly know what caused me to have this compassion for kids - had it all my life it seems. My father (Typical Irish Catholic/WWII Vet) was the same way. I don't really care the color of skin, kids get a break

I'm certain you are just being taken out of context again but... You know we can read what you are writing... Right?

I think that makes me more of an authority.

My dog wants you to quit whistling.

By height

He who hangs in the cave is a cave dweller.

Many things that one can say. About your post, well..

Oakland, for the most, is not a a crime-ridden place. Most of the violent crimes are committed in East and West Oakland.

and in my funky neighborhood, he would have been just a kid playing. No excuse for what he wrote.
I had to go see the toy guns they reference and I must say, I would not want my kid to play with one.

Either repeated anti ACA threads lately, or they will take the side of cops in cases like this...

The smart trolls don't participate in these social topic threads. They are Klingon class 3.5

Yikes. That's messed up.

People who applaud it have already sunk to his level. There's no deeper to go!

I'm astounded right now.

I'm astounded that I was asked to serve on a jury for this, and that other post is allowed to stand. That post made my stomach flip, FreakinDJ.

Oct. 1, myself.

around which we're all gathered for discussion.

Everyone has an opinion and disagreements abound. But to call out a DUer like this...

bla bla bla

I can't even finish it.

Pointless anyway.

I have no "group..." because I support Obamacare (and admitted I was wrong about it) yet I don't support other administration policies...so, no one who is firmly entrenched in one group or the other likes me anymore. I'll survive, and I appreciate it when they are straight about it to my face. DU is and always will be a place where DUers will call each other out. You wouldn't believe what someone said to me in a PM just yesterday...as if anyone here really knows me.

(On edit: apologies, that was a crazy double post up above)

I don't know that I've ever belonged to a group/clique here. I came here seeking truth. All I want is truth. And fairness. Reality-based. An honest and respectful exchange.

no prob on the double post

And creekjdog too!

I don't keep notes on people. Is CreekDog someone you guys don't get along with?

is murdered. That's what it was - murder. I hope those cops ROT UNDER THE JAIL.

Do you NOT understand the difference? He posed no conceivable danger to anyone. Looking at the comparison pictures on tv, even I could tell the difference between a real gun and the toy. And I'm an old lady with corrective lenses which I wasn't even wearing at the time. Don't tell me the cops couldn't tell the difference! And they had to KEEP shooting him, just to watch his little body twitch?

SICK AS HELL, THE WHOLE THING!

Don't get emotional. I well understand the difference between "LITTLE BOY!!!" and the victim. Do you?

Your last statement is a sick and twisted statement on what you think someone you don't like did. I hope you're happy you leveraged this "LITTLE BOY" for your own agenda.

according the the neighbors. what a sad, frightened, violent, pathetic group of people, aka, americans.

Look at this thread of yours...all of the things DUers "say" they will do. All easy to say with ones feetsies all toasty warm in socks or with kittens and puppies twined around them behind a protective computer screen.

To be honest, I don't know what I'd do if I were a cop. But, if I were a mom (and I am) of a son who played with airsoft guns (and he did once upon a time, "punk" that he is), and a cop was a paranoid freak with a gun obsession? I'd be sending baby pictures to the murderous man/woman ever day of their lives and/or mine--letting them know what their baseless decision ended. Every day, wihout fail or until I couldn't afford stamps. Because that's all I could do... and all anyone in this thread could or would do. Even though their stories are fun to read sometimes.

I pity the poor parents. Perhaps just as much I should pity people without an ounce of compassion for an innocent slain child on his way to play with friends. The whole thing's sickening. But we needed to know, so thanks for the info. Now excuse me, I have to go cry.

We'd be better off if someone had spotted and shot Adam Lanza. Don't doubt that for a second.


I can understand why the officers mistook that for a real weapon. I do not necessarily believe their response was proportional, however. Two against one, even with pistols against a long gun (super shitty odds for the officers if a real gun) does, in my estimate, allow for the officers to at least ATTEMPT to order him to drop it. Unless he pointed the rifle AT THEM, at the ready, I think the response was over the top.

That said, there is no excuse for a firearm-like toy without an orange tip on the barrel. It's not a get out of jail free card, officers still might not trust it, after all, someone could paint a real firearm for nefarious purposes. But that should have been clearly identifiable as a toy, and it wasn't. There's a photo of it lying on the ground on the ABC News site, and the tip is clearly not orange.


I don't agree with the response, I would have attempted to interdict, rather than shoot, but I at least understand why the officers considered it a deadly threat.

Why do we give children realistic looking toys? Do we give give kids toy claymores, or predator missiles? Why do we give them toy guns? Can we maybe not do that? There's nothing toy-related about it. It's a weapon.

Kewl story bro!

Some of us have very strong opinions about that case. Mine is that Zimmerman belongs in prison. But this is not the thread to discuss it.

You signed up just for that? I hope you enjoyed your time here.

In my opinion: If someone thinks a post is offensive they have options:

1. Counter it with a response of their own
2. Ignore the post or poster
3. Report it and let a jury decide.

But yeah, I think Call Out threads really are a form of bullying. That's the point. And I am not a fan of bullying.

to lot of people on DU, not just me. So while call-out threads in general are probably something to discourage, I don't have much sympathy here.

Back on topic. Everyone's background and experiences are different, just as everyone who read that initial news article imagined their own dramatic interpretation of what took place. None of us where there, so we don't know. Even the people that were there witnessed different things.

In this case, I think the varied responses from posters here is a reflection of THAT phenomenon, rather than an indication of their values. They are really saying, "In the scenario I am imagining in my mind, I would have done this or that." And to them it seems perfectly reasonable. You or I, imagining a different scenario, wonder what the hell they are smoking.

So a 13 year old is too young to be able to pull a trigger?

That size and youth is easily capable of pulling a trigger.

And had to shoot him 6 more times after having him already on the ground??

OK.

Kid was probably practicing!

Unbelievable.

We tolerate the most egregious intolerance and hatred in the name of tolerance in our "big tent."

omc, lozocollo, there are others in the history of this board.

Bullying is just another "opinion," just another "version" of the "facts."

Why are you surprised? (rhetorical question) It's how false equivalencies propagate; "we" help them.

What name is he posting under now?

And anyone who would shoot a kid 5 more times on the ground after being shot in the back should be in prison for life. It's a cowardly act unworthy of civil servants.... or human beings in general.

I cannot believe the brutality in some people's minds and hearts.

Rec

And you have the nerve to start a callout thread? Wow.

'I hope this happens to your kid' or similar words. So you, who claim to be all about the kids, are wishing death upon an innocent child to make your point? How is that ok?

Aren't you the one who had a post hidden on this thread for saying "I hope this happens to one of your kids"? And you have the gall to condemn this person for saying he wouldn't wait to find out exactly what this kid is capable of.

Now I don't agree with the poster that the kid gets shot on sight, but police would be called, and if the kid did anything threatening while on my property (break a window, attempt to enter) I wouldn't play any "is this a toy gun or not" roulette games. He would be met with at very least the threat of deadly force.

The police involved, on the other hand, are in a much different situation than myself and the poster you quoted. Two main differences come to mind. First, I am neither paid nor trained to encounter life-threatening situations with the responsibility to protect society first. Second, my home is not a field where children often play with airsoft guns. If the scenario played out as you say it did, then the police overreacted and they deserve every bit of repercussion that's coming to them.

Not that you'll be particularly interested, but here is my opinion on airsoft. I am pro armed self-defense, very pro-training, and therefore extremely pro-airsoft. Personally, I use a very high quality airsoft replica of my self-defense pistol to train for shooting sports that I participate in. It's appearance is identical in every way to the original except for an orange ring on the barrel. Without that even I wouldn't be able to tell the difference from 10 feet away. The airsoft replicas are so good now that if one were pointed at me I would be forced to treat it as a real threat, because if I'm wrong I end up with a widow and an orphan. And unfortunately it is very easy to paint an orange tip black, or worse yet paint a black tip orange. The police should not have reacted the way they did, but I would in no way automatically condemn someone who didn't wait for proof that a threat was real before reacting to it.

They were banned at DU2 for posting:

I don't blame them one bit for thinking this was a real gun...and I don't blame them for treating a 13 year old like and adult, when a gun is involved. A kid can do just as much damage with a gun as an adult. So in my mind, the mantra that they should have treated the kid differently doesn't hold water.

But I've still got a problem with the cops. They have set up a construct, in which they do not have to make decisions. Their 'training' gives them a free pass to fire relentlessly, once they feel their life is in danger. You or I come under much more scrutiny, if we were to fire even one shot in self-defense. And firing multiple times is an invitation to a murder charge. But not the cops. Their 'training' permits them to do this. And this training is condoned by national accrediting bodies...set up and run by former cops.

I think city councils, county commissions, state legislatures, etc. should take a more proactive role with the police forces. Our money pays for the cops, and our representatives should act like their boss.

If a city wants to prohibit high speed chases - do it, no matter what some association of law enforcement officials says.

If a city wants to require cameras in cars, with locked data - do it, no matter what the police chief says.

If a city wants police to call for backup and/or negotiator, when a juvenile has a gun - impose that requirement on the department.

etc, etc, etc.

I don't like what happened but can we at least be a bit more accurate and use up to date pictures of the poor kid. Unless it is written in a news article somewhere, we have no idea how tall he was.

Hopefully, the multiple time zombie referenced in the OP will get their much deserved pizza again.

Sid

that you hoped this happened to one of his kids???

You better look in a mirror before you start calling others out.

and that post was rightfully hidden.