General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBig Ed is huffing and puffing about old NAFTA wars. The new TPP under discussion is just reality.
We are in a new era and we are part of the world not master of the world. We have to have international trade agreement to get our clothes, food and shelter.
We just don't make everything we use or need.
He is arguing about 5 million jobs lost in 94, have we rebuilt those 5 million jobs?? No so we are not going to relose them. We may lose some more but we should gain some new jobs from overseas trade but...they will be robotics jobs not people jobs.
Fighting the wrong problem may sound good but doesn't solve anything.
polichick
(37,152 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)How about losing 5 million more? That sit pretty with you?
We didn't 'gain some new jobs' with NAFTA, unless you count the factory workers slinging burgers when their factory moved to Guadalajara.
Fuck NAFTA, fuck TPP.
CK_John
(10,005 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Fuck.the.TPP.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)That sounds pretty depressing actually.
leftstreet
(36,108 posts)It's just reality!
Leave the investors alone!
tblue
(16,350 posts)Who can defend that????!!!!!!!!!
whathehell
(29,067 posts)The TPP is not just a "trade deal" it would, for one thing, allow corporations to SUE governments
for lessening their profits by, for instance, tacking on environmental or worker safety regulations -- It gives
SOVEREIGNTY to corporations OVER governments.
I don't know if Ed is making that clear but that's a big part of it...It's basically
death to democracy.
Check out this and some other threads on the Trans Pacific Partnership.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3917984
BethMomDem
(70 posts)Thanks to trade agreements and Banks/corps that capitalize on loopholes and cheap labor, made easier by nafta and other supposed free trade agreements, sweatshop workers all over the world are dying of exhaustion and ceilings are caving in on them almost daily.
Horrid piece!
And welcome to DU, BethMomDem!
Is that a staffie in your avatar? He/she is adorable!
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)The language of the Constitution made it clear that the government was granted the means to do that.
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)So no, you couldn't protect American farmers, for instance, from cheaper foreign products.
CK_John
(10,005 posts)are in the design phase. Contact your senator..
BluegrassStateBlues
(881 posts)arendt
(5,078 posts)Are you people totally naive about what is going on here?
arendt
(5,078 posts)We will lose our Constitutional rights under this deal.
See any of the many posts on TPP by Cali.
This deal is suicide for self-government. Not only do we not get to keep our own laws about safety, pollution, labor rights, etc. We get to be sued for penalties anytime a corporation can concoct a bullshit story about how they "lost" money.
Free market my ass. This isn't a trade deal. Its global corporate dictatorship over nation states.
Wake up, useful idiot.
CK_John
(10,005 posts)arendt
(5,078 posts)What a sell out you are.
CK_John
(10,005 posts)arendt
(5,078 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)and apologizing for what is essentially a corporate takeover of eight countries.
Being called a sell out is the least you deserve, and I applaud arendt for being so calm.
CK_John
(10,005 posts)India has how many billion people??? Asia has how many billion people?? And we have 300 million people, get it.........
We need trade agreements and we can expect our administration get us the best deals possible but reality is we are no longer in the driver seat.
tblue
(16,350 posts)Huffing and puffing is better than giving up.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)senseandsensibility
(17,056 posts)bluestate10
(10,942 posts)Large corporations are largely country-less these days, they can move expand operations in one country while closing down operations in another country. There is no anchor like existed during the early centuries of the USA and countries like England where business owners lived in the communities that their companies operated in and were part of the communities, being neighbors of the people that worked for them.
Dynamics started to change with the wise of people like Rockefeller, JP Morgan, et al. Those people created companies that spanned many communities, and all industrialized countries, changing the relationship between workers and owners, owners became completely detached from workers. Owners started to engage in a race with each other to determine who could create the most personal wealth. Trade became a means of increasing profits and controlling the cost of manufacturing. Manufacturing was moved from high wage countries to poor, low wage countries and the resulting products sold back into wealthy countries. Financial institutions were not impacted by manufacturing moving to poor countries and worked to help owners move manufacturing.
Fast forward to today. Owners, which is now a mix of wealthy families, retirement plans, investment banks continue to seek out the cheapest countries to manufacture in, pitting one country against other countries, extracting "concessions" from governments and workers along the way.
There is no such thing as free trade because owners or investment banks will find "soft" spots that they can exploit, sacrificing countries that don't have protective laws to protect their citizens. The USA and England are the last two countries that don't put up protective tariffs unless it is proven that countries are taking advantage of trade rules.
So, any trade agreement will be bad for US citizens, because the people at the table making the rules of trade are owners and investment banks, not workers or their greatly weakened unions.
One of the fundamental realities that owners and international investment banks take advantage of is that why should a person in China, Vietnam, Singapore accept that their standard of living will be restrained so that workers in America and Great Britain can maintain a high standard of living? So, workers around the world get sucked into a constant vortex of increasing competition to hold or retain jobs, with lower and lower wages being the carrot that owners and international investment banks use to play workers in countries against each other.
The situation won't change until new systems of owners dealing with workers is developed. In that system, owners will share wealth created with workers and investment banks will be cut out of the picture. Owners in such a system will be visionary and progressive in their views on their role in a larger society. Until such a system is created, nothing will stop the constant degradation of workers. The issue of workers in each nation having a constantly rising standard of living will still exist, but that can be dealt with via real trade agreements where standards on treatment of workers and the environment are equal from nation to nation and where companies largely are national, operating within their own national and/or regional borders.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)CK_John
(10,005 posts)abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)My entire industry has been sent to Canada, New Zealand, China and England. After twenty years at the same job I've spent the last year watching all my former coworkers and friends struggle to keep a roof over their heads and find new work. Dealing with reduced unemployment due to sequestration, and reduced funding for programs designed to help workers retrain. They've sold their homes for a loss or are still stuck with double payments. They've been forced to leave the country to find work, splitting up families and or having to completely change careers in their forties and fifties. Our country desperately needs a trade policy that doesn't reward corporations for off shoring work. Right now sending work anywhere else means companies save money on healthcare (because every other country has nationalized care) and being monetarily rewarded by tax incentives here for expanding business overseas and subsidies offered by foreign countries. There is no way for American workers in my industry to compete or thrive under these conditions. Its not just a matter of taking less in wages or benefits or of American workers expecting too much. We aren't the first industry to go through this, and unless things change won't be the last. That is why there is so much push back against globalization and trade agreements that leave workers out of the negotiating process. It is a different world. A world where younger generations are filed with despair because after doing everything they needed to be successful in school and train for jobs the opportunity to thrive, raise a family and one day retire seem completely out of reach. A world where numerous awards and twenty years experience nets you having your entire world ripped out from under your feet. And y'know the tough part wasn't countless sleepless nights wondering how I'd feed my two young kids or finding that new job with no benefits or security. The tough part is listening to people say that's just the way it is and I should deal with it. Can you understand just a little bit?
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)Really?
grasswire
(50,130 posts)This doesn't mean we need to make horrible deals like Nafta. TPP is worse than Nafta. Look at all the jobs lost.