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CK_John

(10,005 posts)
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:21 PM Oct 2013

Big Ed is huffing and puffing about old NAFTA wars. The new TPP under discussion is just reality.

We are in a new era and we are part of the world not master of the world. We have to have international trade agreement to get our clothes, food and shelter.

We just don't make everything we use or need.

He is arguing about 5 million jobs lost in 94, have we rebuilt those 5 million jobs?? No so we are not going to relose them. We may lose some more but we should gain some new jobs from overseas trade but...they will be robotics jobs not people jobs.

Fighting the wrong problem may sound good but doesn't solve anything.

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Big Ed is huffing and puffing about old NAFTA wars. The new TPP under discussion is just reality. (Original Post) CK_John Oct 2013 OP
Don't worry - our charismatic corporate Dems will fight for the people! polichick Oct 2013 #1
Welcome to the new normal, same as the old normal! Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #22
Bullshit. X_Digger Oct 2013 #2
We can't lose what we don't have. CK_John Oct 2013 #4
We can lose *more*. X_Digger Oct 2013 #7
We can't lose what we don't have. Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #23
Corporations have a right to sue countries for compensation! leftstreet Oct 2013 #3
"It's just reality." Like a rapist saying, "Lay back and take it." tblue Oct 2013 #13
You really do not understand.. whathehell Oct 2013 #5
We can make the goods, It's cheaper to make them elsewhere. BethMomDem Oct 2013 #6
Yup! tblue Oct 2013 #16
Thanks. BethMomDem Oct 2013 #32
Nations can still protect their economies. HereSince1628 Oct 2013 #8
TPP is also focusing on eliminating tariffs KeepItReal Oct 2013 #9
And to pass the TPP will require a super majority and then become part of the constitution, now we CK_John Oct 2013 #14
I'll trust USTR's overview on this until I have evidence of the contrary. BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #10
The USTR is, and always has been a corporate whore. Why should I trust it? arendt Oct 2013 #12
TPP is a corporate coup d-etait. The trade issue is a Trojan Horse arendt Oct 2013 #11
1910 thinking, we are in world like it or not. CK_John Oct 2013 #18
Great attitude. Bend over and take it. arendt Oct 2013 #19
You are rather nasty person, check your blood pressure. CK_John Oct 2013 #20
Politics ain't beanbag. You can't take the heat...get out of here. n/t arendt Oct 2013 #21
You're betraying labor, the environment, human rights, NuclearDem Oct 2013 #24
Grow up it's 2013 not 1910, the world is no longer United Fruit like companies. CK_John Oct 2013 #26
Please stop giving up. tblue Oct 2013 #15
Any Congress person or Presidential candidate who votes for TPP will not get my vote. liberal_at_heart Oct 2013 #17
What a defeatist attitude. senseandsensibility Oct 2013 #25
Ed's concern is whether everyone will be playing on a level playing field. bluestate10 Oct 2013 #27
Has your job been offshored? abelenkpe Oct 2013 #28
No job as long as my Soc Sec keep coming, not looking toward the Dec shutdown. CK_John Oct 2013 #29
Well hopefully that will not happen abelenkpe Oct 2013 #33
Damn, dude Cal Carpenter Oct 2013 #30
Obama said today the jobs are gone and NOT coming back. grasswire Oct 2013 #31

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
2. Bullshit.
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:23 PM
Oct 2013

How about losing 5 million more? That sit pretty with you?

We didn't 'gain some new jobs' with NAFTA, unless you count the factory workers slinging burgers when their factory moved to Guadalajara.

Fuck NAFTA, fuck TPP.

leftstreet

(36,108 posts)
3. Corporations have a right to sue countries for compensation!
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:25 PM
Oct 2013

It's just reality!

Leave the investors alone!


tblue

(16,350 posts)
13. "It's just reality." Like a rapist saying, "Lay back and take it."
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:37 PM
Oct 2013

Who can defend that????!!!!!!!!!

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
5. You really do not understand..
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:27 PM
Oct 2013

The TPP is not just a "trade deal" it would, for one thing, allow corporations to SUE governments

for lessening their profits by, for instance, tacking on environmental or worker safety regulations -- It gives

SOVEREIGNTY to corporations OVER governments.

I don't know if Ed is making that clear but that's a big part of it...It's basically

death to democracy.


Check out this and some other threads on the Trans Pacific Partnership.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3917984

BethMomDem

(70 posts)
6. We can make the goods, It's cheaper to make them elsewhere.
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:27 PM
Oct 2013

Thanks to trade agreements and Banks/corps that capitalize on loopholes and cheap labor, made easier by nafta and other supposed free trade agreements, sweatshop workers all over the world are dying of exhaustion and ceilings are caving in on them almost daily.

Horrid piece!

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
8. Nations can still protect their economies.
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:28 PM
Oct 2013

The language of the Constitution made it clear that the government was granted the means to do that.

KeepItReal

(7,769 posts)
9. TPP is also focusing on eliminating tariffs
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:31 PM
Oct 2013

So no, you couldn't protect American farmers, for instance, from cheaper foreign products.

CK_John

(10,005 posts)
14. And to pass the TPP will require a super majority and then become part of the constitution, now we
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:37 PM
Oct 2013

are in the design phase. Contact your senator..

arendt

(5,078 posts)
12. The USTR is, and always has been a corporate whore. Why should I trust it?
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:35 PM
Oct 2013

Are you people totally naive about what is going on here?

arendt

(5,078 posts)
11. TPP is a corporate coup d-etait. The trade issue is a Trojan Horse
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:33 PM
Oct 2013

We will lose our Constitutional rights under this deal.

See any of the many posts on TPP by Cali.

This deal is suicide for self-government. Not only do we not get to keep our own laws about safety, pollution, labor rights, etc. We get to be sued for penalties anytime a corporation can concoct a bullshit story about how they "lost" money.

Free market my ass. This isn't a trade deal. Its global corporate dictatorship over nation states.

Wake up, useful idiot.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
24. You're betraying labor, the environment, human rights,
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 11:14 PM
Oct 2013

and apologizing for what is essentially a corporate takeover of eight countries.

Being called a sell out is the least you deserve, and I applaud arendt for being so calm.

CK_John

(10,005 posts)
26. Grow up it's 2013 not 1910, the world is no longer United Fruit like companies.
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 11:53 PM
Oct 2013

India has how many billion people??? Asia has how many billion people?? And we have 300 million people, get it.........

We need trade agreements and we can expect our administration get us the best deals possible but reality is we are no longer in the driver seat.

senseandsensibility

(17,056 posts)
25. What a defeatist attitude.
Fri Oct 25, 2013, 11:42 PM
Oct 2013
We should gain some jobs, but they will be robotic jobs, not people jobs? Okay, you've convinced me. Say no more.

bluestate10

(10,942 posts)
27. Ed's concern is whether everyone will be playing on a level playing field.
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 12:13 AM
Oct 2013

Large corporations are largely country-less these days, they can move expand operations in one country while closing down operations in another country. There is no anchor like existed during the early centuries of the USA and countries like England where business owners lived in the communities that their companies operated in and were part of the communities, being neighbors of the people that worked for them.

Dynamics started to change with the wise of people like Rockefeller, JP Morgan, et al. Those people created companies that spanned many communities, and all industrialized countries, changing the relationship between workers and owners, owners became completely detached from workers. Owners started to engage in a race with each other to determine who could create the most personal wealth. Trade became a means of increasing profits and controlling the cost of manufacturing. Manufacturing was moved from high wage countries to poor, low wage countries and the resulting products sold back into wealthy countries. Financial institutions were not impacted by manufacturing moving to poor countries and worked to help owners move manufacturing.

Fast forward to today. Owners, which is now a mix of wealthy families, retirement plans, investment banks continue to seek out the cheapest countries to manufacture in, pitting one country against other countries, extracting "concessions" from governments and workers along the way.

There is no such thing as free trade because owners or investment banks will find "soft" spots that they can exploit, sacrificing countries that don't have protective laws to protect their citizens. The USA and England are the last two countries that don't put up protective tariffs unless it is proven that countries are taking advantage of trade rules.

So, any trade agreement will be bad for US citizens, because the people at the table making the rules of trade are owners and investment banks, not workers or their greatly weakened unions.

One of the fundamental realities that owners and international investment banks take advantage of is that why should a person in China, Vietnam, Singapore accept that their standard of living will be restrained so that workers in America and Great Britain can maintain a high standard of living? So, workers around the world get sucked into a constant vortex of increasing competition to hold or retain jobs, with lower and lower wages being the carrot that owners and international investment banks use to play workers in countries against each other.

The situation won't change until new systems of owners dealing with workers is developed. In that system, owners will share wealth created with workers and investment banks will be cut out of the picture. Owners in such a system will be visionary and progressive in their views on their role in a larger society. Until such a system is created, nothing will stop the constant degradation of workers. The issue of workers in each nation having a constantly rising standard of living will still exist, but that can be dealt with via real trade agreements where standards on treatment of workers and the environment are equal from nation to nation and where companies largely are national, operating within their own national and/or regional borders.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
33. Well hopefully that will not happen
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 10:56 AM
Oct 2013

My entire industry has been sent to Canada, New Zealand, China and England. After twenty years at the same job I've spent the last year watching all my former coworkers and friends struggle to keep a roof over their heads and find new work. Dealing with reduced unemployment due to sequestration, and reduced funding for programs designed to help workers retrain. They've sold their homes for a loss or are still stuck with double payments. They've been forced to leave the country to find work, splitting up families and or having to completely change careers in their forties and fifties. Our country desperately needs a trade policy that doesn't reward corporations for off shoring work. Right now sending work anywhere else means companies save money on healthcare (because every other country has nationalized care) and being monetarily rewarded by tax incentives here for expanding business overseas and subsidies offered by foreign countries. There is no way for American workers in my industry to compete or thrive under these conditions. Its not just a matter of taking less in wages or benefits or of American workers expecting too much. We aren't the first industry to go through this, and unless things change won't be the last. That is why there is so much push back against globalization and trade agreements that leave workers out of the negotiating process. It is a different world. A world where younger generations are filed with despair because after doing everything they needed to be successful in school and train for jobs the opportunity to thrive, raise a family and one day retire seem completely out of reach. A world where numerous awards and twenty years experience nets you having your entire world ripped out from under your feet. And y'know the tough part wasn't countless sleepless nights wondering how I'd feed my two young kids or finding that new job with no benefits or security. The tough part is listening to people say that's just the way it is and I should deal with it. Can you understand just a little bit?

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
31. Obama said today the jobs are gone and NOT coming back.
Sat Oct 26, 2013, 01:11 AM
Oct 2013

This doesn't mean we need to make horrible deals like Nafta. TPP is worse than Nafta. Look at all the jobs lost.

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