I love exposing it when I see it.

The goal is not to convince anyone of anything.

Sid

Those who don't care about the NSA Spying,
.....just don't care.

I would have thought that Canadians might have some concerns,
since this latest revelation focused on the NSA violating their privacy and spying on their lives,
but I guess enjoying REAL Universal Health CARE while making fun of US Citizens and their 2nd Rate Mandatory Health Insurance makes up for lots of evils.

Authoritarians on the other hand get a woody from spying.

I really don't see many non-authoritarians on the right and not nearly as many as I'd like to see on the left.

"if our team is doing it, it is okay" around here.

This is one area that is transcends politics. People died to win our essential rights, we cannot give them away without fighting.

...is because right now Obama, the black man, is president.

If the revelations about NSA tactics came out when W was in office, most RWers would be supporting it.

But there is a substantial percentage of people who support their party/their president no matter what, and despise the opposing party/opposing president no matter what.

NSA spying and invasion of privacy is just fine with most RWers, once you take Obamatheblackman out of the equation.

But the moderate centrists are all like: " What? Huh? Why would they spy on me man? Sure, spy on youse people, that's cool, yall are crazy. We centrists have nothing to hide."

[font size=3]...because it is so damned EASY!
You don't have to STAND for ANYTHING,
and get to insult those who DO![/font]





You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]




I pray that I would have the courage to Do-the-Right-Thing
that Manning and Snowden have exhibited.
THEY are the protectors of our Democracy.
No wonder some here hate them.

Glad to see you catching on. <grin, big grin>

Heh. Truth is Bvar has been educating DU. He's 'bout halfway there?

any so-called lefty that would suggest that either doesn't understand the issue or is rationalizing/justifying it based on who is currently in control of it.

fuck the right wing.

The fact that you cannot seem to make a cogent argument that differentiates between the two outrages me, because I think all Americans should pay attention in their civics and logic classes.

Like the 4th Amendment?

civics--the bare amendments, without any context, without being able to rationally speak in terms of the 200 years of jurisprudence available to them concerning those amendments DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION.

It's like when the gun nuts think they've won an argument by posting this.....

Is that there piece of paper supposed to tell people what to do, or is it to tell the government what it can and can't do?

Two choices: limit people or limit government?

Most people are not aware. Is you or is you not? >>><grin>

jurisprudence that patriots went to the trouble of creating.

The Constitution is a limit on our government...not on us. And thus, when people only quote the bare amendments, they are shortchanging themselves of 200 years of Liberty that has been added on.

I am not troubled by some nebulous term--"spying." I am troubled by Constitutional violations. Show me one, and then I'll be sufficiently outraged.

Most people do not understand that.

So, the government is not allowed to violate your privacy. Except when they have good reason to because of an oath sworn and a judicial ruling saying there is reasonable cause to violate your privacy.

Where is the oath and judicial ruling allowing the government to spy on your cell phone?

not at all to persons outside the US.

Could you expound on those exceptions?

And yeah, if you are a foreigner, you are spy material. But here in the US, not, unless you have had a judge say you are.

So what right does the government have to track your US cell phone?

client, I suggest the first season of The Wire--in particular, the surveillance work of Det. Lester Freamon as a primer regarding exceptions to the Warrants clause.

The police can track your cell phone location and what numbers you called without a warrant. They cannot 'tap' your cell phone without a warrant***. You can be recorded if you are stupid enough to stand in public using your cell phone, and if you are truly, truly feeble of mind, and used the 'speaker' function, they can record you, and the other party.

Why? Third party/business records exception allows the tracking and pen register of such non-content records. Tapping of a person within the US would be content, and needs a warrant, unless another exception applies***.

They may not be able to use the info in court, but they can, and all indications are, they do tap your phone/collect content.

And what info they do gather may be used to inflict damage upon you in other, albeit illegal, ways. Because it's all 'secret'.

The real question is.... why would you in any way support such? Why don't you, like most of us, feel violated by the piracy of our privacy? We are innocent in the eyes of the law, but criminal prospects to the spy agencies.

Why does that not bother you? Besides being non-constitutional, it is just sick that they can and do spy on you.

Clause without having a tizz doesn't mean I think illegal activity done by the government is acceptable.

Other than concerns about 'spying,' can you articulate actions--specific actions done by the government that concern you? And why should I feel violated? Do you think I've been illegally spied on? By whom?

Can you give an example of a case that you are talking about?

Which looks as if you support the spying agencies and are an enabler, as compared to me.

You are looked at as a criminal by the agencies. Why you do not object to that is really odd. As a women, I would think that your privacy would be very much more important to you, knowing the dangers faced from just the misogyny in the world.

Oh well, whatever, I now know I can't expect any help from you if they spy on me.

what do you think they are doing to me?

Some people simply exist at different levels of paranoia and self-importance.

Really, you are acting like a brick wall.

Hey, keep on trusting the men who run the spy and police agencies if that's your gig. As for me I want 'them' controlled much tighter. All indications are they are out of control, what with the new Snowden revelations coming out nearly everyday.

Your false and slanderous accusation of paranoia make you look like one of 'them', y'know?

am being spied on? Other than vague allusions to 'agencies' and 'Snowden' do you have any actual evidence that anyone on DU is being 'spied' upon?

Be specific. Tell me what actions you think are occurring against me.

I figured someone on DU with close to 20,000 posts would at least have a clue. And absent that, be at least a wee-bit more honest.

I apologize for giving you a benefit of doubt. Good bye.

All your tap dancing, diversion, dodging, weaseling, and discounting do not promote your position.

I'll stand with Joe Biden and those of us who believe in the constitutional limitation on government,

to the bare amendments and soundbites.

Again--the outrage of the day is "spying." Why not list, and be outraged over actual Constitutional violations?

You're all over the place.
If we are going to have an intelligent conversation,
you will have to pick a position, and stick with it.
Consistency is the hallmark of an honest broker.
Inconsistency is the mark of..... (well, you finish).

First you say that people need to pay attention in Civics Class.

Then, when somebody who DID pay attention and can recite the Bill of Rights laughs at you,
you pivot and say that we need someone like YOU to tell all us plebeians that the 4th Amendment doesn't say what it says,
it says what YOU say it says.

How convenient.

...but, to make things easier for those folks here who aren't as smart as you think you are,
why don't you tell us where you disagree with Joe Biden,
(who obviously didn't pay attention in Civics class either).

Clause and that the 4th amendment doesn't apply outside the United States.


Let's make this easy---name a specific action I am supposed to be outraged over. Not just "spying"--because that's pretty nebulous. A specific action. Hell, I'm not even asking you cite a code section. Just give me a specific violation you think is unconstitutional.

And going back to your citing of the bare Amendments--tell me, how does citing the 4th amendment protect your cellphone? Gotta use a little more than the bare amendment, bvar!

Do you remember when the Tsunami hit Fukushima,
and DU was treated to a parade of "experts" claiming that there wasn't a problem
The posted a string of stuff like:

got you all hot and bothered?

Stream it live on the Internet and upload 1000's of photos and videos to social media.

That will show 'em how much we love our privacy.

Whether or not we should allow the government to pirate our privacy.

It may be too complicated for some?

Our tax dollars are being poured into a surveillance machine that we are told exists to protect us from TERRORISTS.
In actuality, the surveillance machine is targeted at all of us and has two purposes:

1. Total information awareness for PROFIT.

and

2. A surveillance state to eliminate resistance by those who are being exploited for PROFIT.

Last edited Sat Oct 26, 2013, 11:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Above, a supporter of the spying insisted that there was not any constitutional control on what they are pirating. We shall see if the conversation continues.

We have heard from many scholars claiming that the limit placed on the government is being exceeded by the government, so that is pretty clearly the constitutional state of the matter.

Lately, Obama himself, and Mrs. Clinton, have spoken to this issue and are affirmative that reforms are needed. Seems supporters of the piracy are losing every bit of the ground on which they stand.

All Americans should be outraged about the spying nonsense, except for the sheep and the authoritarian types, of course.

Sheep implies a level of innocence that I'm not quite willing to accord those who think this kind of thing is ok.