Workers and small businesses would not benefit from this but big corporations, especially global ones will.

making it possible for more Middle class people becoming millionaires in history . Why is one thing, HOW are they cooperated with when it comes to selling us out .

n/t

We have the racist tea party crazies on the one hand and the smart historic black president on the other - each package mesmerizing some voters and repelling others - both serving the same corporate masters.

Ingenious really.

manipulated pawns - and an extremely wealthy 1%.

Divide and conquer works.

it's a Democrat doing it. I never thought it would come to this.

Along with immigration.

They see them as the bi-partisan selling out of working Americans, at the behest of corporate overlords.

You're right, I'm not listening to you, specifically. Because I can see right through you, clear to the bottom.

The fact that you aren't is your problem.

about the TPP, it's hardly surprising that you haven't heard a peep.

It took me seconds to find this shit:

http://www.teaparty.org/is-obama-negotiating-a-treaty-that-would-essentially-ban-all-buy-american-laws-5902/

http://teapartyorg.ning.com/forum/topics/trans-pacific-partnership-secret-surrender-of-sovereignty

there's a lot more.

They might pay lip service to opposing the TPP because the President favors it. But we will hear very little about Tea Party opposition in the media because the Koch Brother favor it too. So technically they oppose it, but not really.

with their strong antipathy toward the banksters as well.

And no, they're not intellectually or morally consistent. They never are.

Almost all economists, liberal and conservative alike, think free trade boosts economic output.

TPP is trying to get there by eliminating tariffs

Something "economists" could give a fuck about.

...so that we could not compete with their electronics companies.

Just in case anybody here wants to know current events or nuance.

-Laelth

I get that because I also grew up in Hawai'i, aka The Crossroads of the Pacific. His background goes much deeper because he spent part of his childhood in an Asian nation, where his mother remained and did her doctoral research.

As his wife once said she tells his friends, "If you don't get Hawai'i, you don't get Barack."

Start with that.

Then critique the elements of the proposed TPP.

I totally get what you're saying in regards to the President.

... the other half of the world, not just Europe.

I'm still hoping for critiques of the TPP that start from that understanding, and not from an assumption of malice and ignorance on the part of the President. He's neither one of those, so I am hoping for a fuller understanding of what the TPP is and may or may not accomplish.

Just about every job that can go overseas has now. That wasn't because of trade agreements. You're angry at how technology is affecting the economy, which is very reasonable, but then you're blaming trade agreements that happen after the fact, which isn't.

It's just like NAFTA: American light and medium manufacturing was declining since the 1970s and moving offshore. NAFTA is a symptom of that, not the cause.

agreements don't affect the economy, Technology and usurping salesmen do, usually via Agreements, regulations or lack there of, all which go on in a clandestine matter, why ?

be planning on giving us (we the people) the opportunity to understand the nuances of the TPP before they ink the deal. I've read (and may be mistaken) that they will also seek an up or down, no debate vote in Congress to ratify this treaty - which is about as far from an opportunity to understand the deal before it is made as we could get.

That's problematic - it makes people uncomfortable and less willing to trust this deal. It's not a question of "engaging" with the other half of the world; the US has been engaged with the East since the end of WWII, after all. It's a question of transparency.

Yes, trade deals are usually hammered out without fanfare - but when people start questioning what they hear about those deals, it behooves those who are making the deal to start shining some lights and opening some doors. Otherwise, people start thinking that there is something being hidden - and things that need to be hidden are rarely beneficial to the majority.

We've been engaged with that part of the world for a long time. Japan, Korea, China, the Philippines, etc. Heck, Korean steel was a large part of the beginning of the loss of the US steel industry. The Japanese auto industry vastly changed the shape of the US auto industry. China owns half our debt and produces most of our electronics.

I'd suggest his motivation is poorly known, but it has little to do with engagement of the Pacific countries. Most likely it is the same move towards globalization that we have seen out of all administrations for the last 30 years. And we shall see a continued lost of wages, and a continued undermining of our environmental regulations in this country.

You can start with EFF here: https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp

or you can watch Amy Goodman's Democracy Now program or you could just read my summary of that program in a letter I wrote to Senator Warren...

Subject: Trade
Re: Trans Pacific Partnership
Date: 10/05/13

I would like to talk to you about the TPP; a “Trade Agreement” which is being negotiated in secret and that President Obama would like to sign at the end of this year. The secrecy around this document is unprecedented. Senator Alan Grayson is one of the few who has seen it and he said, "Having seen what I've seen, I would characterize this as a gross abrogation of American sovereignty... But I'm not allowed to tell you why!"

Amy Goodman from Democracy Now has called it the “Corporate Trojan Horse” and Lori Wallach, Director of Public Citizens Global Trade Watch, has said the TPP would “handcuff” both state and Federal government. Those who have leaked information about the TPP have alleged that it would limit:

1) Food safety (We'd be forced to import food that we know from the few inspections conducted would be dangerous to our health.)
2) Financial regulations
3) Environmental standards
4) Energy and climate policy (For instance, we wouldn't be able to initiate local bans on fracking.)

The TPP supposedly has a binding provision that would ensure the conformity of laws, regulations and procedures which would be privately enforceable by foreign corporations. Corporations could indirectly sue governments, not through the court system, but through special “tribunals” where three corporate attorneys can act as “judges” who are empowered to give “unlimited damages” from us (the taxpayers) for any government action that undermines investors future profits. The TPP would establish new corporate powers such as:

1) Investor privileges that promote job out-sourcing
2) A ban on local procurements allowing corporations to take out tax dollars and instead of investing it our economy, sending money off-shore.
3) New rights to natural resources (mining, gas, oil) without approval
4) Censoring the Internet through backdoor copyright protection. (The technical community is calling this provision “Son of SOPA” and Congress was already forced to vote SOPA down.)

Congress has exclusive constitutional authority over trade but it was only June of this year that some were even allowed to see the draft but they had to throw their staff out, they were not allowed to take notes and they can't even talk about what they saw. I read on Huffington Post that you “sent a letter to Michael Froman, Obama's nominee to head USTR, asking the agency to release negotiation documents to the public.” I hope that's true. The American people have a right to know what's in this so called “Trade Agreement” so we can debate it.

This is an issue that might appeal to the rightwing. After all, many of their constituents are always howling about how the United Nations may take over the U.S. They might find this even worse. I think if we could pull this document into the light of day, it might be possible to get some help from Republican Senators and perhaps you should consider that strategy.

I would appreciate a reply to this letter from either yourself or a staffer. I would like to know your thoughts on this matter and where you plan to go with this. Stick to your guns. You're doing a fantastic job against difficult odds. I wish you the best and I'm honored to have you as my Senator.

That is what is relevant.

Noticing that isn't a call-out, nor was it meant as a criticism.

Working out a treaty is the easy part getting it through Congress is the where deal making will take place.

and getting us selling options on reasonable terms.

It's got 29 chapters and only 5 of them are related to actual 'trade'

I'm sick of that trite "exports" canard they've been using the past 20 years to push trade deals; as if we were born the day before yesterday.

No way in hell we are going to export our way out of the trade deficit. This is smack dab about labor arbitrage and nothing more.

to "up our exports" and get "selling options on reasonable terms."

"He doesn't have much choice, we make hardly anything and we need to trade to exist"

and now

"We import almost everything but the treaty is about opening up our exports"

So, if "we make hardly anything" what is it "we" are going to export?

Here's a guess: The Military Industrial Insurance Complex

Maybe the .01% can pass a law that requires Japan to buy their high deductible "insurance". It's great if you're a stockholder!

Bizzarro world is here and now

in particular? (#25).

Where, you ask?

The answer to your question is

everywhere.

got it. Sorry, lost track of the thread direction. Thank you for rerouting me.

This idea that our manufacturing sector ceased to exist is a myth. We just don't need nearly as many people to do it.

Also, we're the world's #1 agricultural producer, and just passed Russia to be the #1 petro producer. So, basically, we lead the world in ag, petro, and manufacturing (or China may have passed us in manufacturing very recently, but just barely). (On the down side, we're #23 in women's equality.)

There are people who've decided free trade agreements are the cause of a loss of jobs to other countries. It's all some conspiracy against us Americans, along with spying on us and other things.

Overwhelmingly true. We didn't decide it was true, we lost our fucking jobs. But feel free to smack your head.

As Recursion cited above, the loss of manufacturing jobs has been happening since before NAFTA.

apparently you're not interested.

This free trade fetish is not working. You're not convincing anyone and apparently can't make out the case and have nothing to cite to.

Even the President felt the need to tell us he might consider renegotiating NAFTA. But that was during the campaign.

prove it was NAFTA alone that caused it.

Millions of good paying manufacturing jobs were lost due to NAFTA. This is simply undeniable, no matter how many times you and your allies argue to the contrary.

increased dramatically.



http://emsnews.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/nuclear-wars-and-earthquakes-increase-economic-problems/

Our manufacturing has nearly ceased to exist. But carry on with your "support the TPP" talking points.

Again, it just takes fewer and fewer people every year to do that.

doesn't equal 80 billion a year in 2013. But don't let that keep you from carrying corporate water.

How about a source for your (very possibly made up) "allegations"?

that the US is still the world's biggest manufacturer. Yet on DU I was told over and over that we make nothing.

Economics is not an easy thing to understand, so people are easily manipulated.

But by market value of goods produced, we're still pretty far ahead of them

and wages continue to slide in manufacturing.

Furthermore, we sure do have jobs in manufacturing to lose- the textile industry, for instance.

I thought that was pretty much gone by now.

the sock mills in Ft Payne, AL. Those are the two I am most familiar with, since I have lived in both states. Don't believe anyone who says we still have a "textiles sector." Any textiles made in the USA will be highly specific, expensive, and not a common commodity.

and the U.S. is the world's largest carpet manufacturer.

http://www.georgiatrend.com/July-2006/Carpet-Maker-To-The-World/

Sometimes my head is stuck in ag on these things. I'll take a look at that.

... however...

It REALLY pisses me off. I promise to work my ass off to defeat any elected official that doesn't fight it tooth and nail to make sure this gigantic screwing of the 99% NEVER sees the light of day , regardless of the fucking letter following their name they hide behind.

day and night on it. Or members of his staff who carry the information to him. We have to remember he can't be an expert on everything, he relies on his staff for much of his information......

it seems that the two worse trade agreements in us history will be signed by democratic presidents.

at least i`m old enough to remember when there was an american middle class and the democrats and republicans worked together for america instead of multinational corporations.

Most US trade policy is still driven by Big Ag, which does really well under this. So does industrial manufacturing (we build the factory equipment that China uses). So do people who, you know, buy things. Who gets nailed is light and medium manufacturers, as well as foreign agriculture.

Remember, NAFTA didn't reduce American manufacturing: we manufacture more now than at any point in the past, we just don't need very many people to do it. This will probably do the same thing, manufacturing will increase even more as Asia buys heavy plant, but we'll need even fewer people to do it.

"We" put a lot of Mexican maize farmers out of business.

Good point on "automation" causing lost jobs.

Which also fed into the immigration issue.

I wish more Americans paid attention to ag policy.

NAFTA stimulated some parts of American manufacturing at the expense of others. Manufacturing overall increased. Manufacturing employment decreased, which led to an expansion of the service sector and overall GDP growth that was less dependent on manufacturing.

That said, the whole premise in most countries is to use those gains to pay for a safety net for the people displaced, and we absolutely failed to do that.

in 1994 when NAFTA was enacted, to 317 million today. But US manufacturing has been devastated due to NAFTA.

Hey, what is your interest in promoting free trade deals? Why are you sooo passionate? Just want to stamp out ignorance? Peddle that nonsense elsewhere.

Recursion, I have never seen you take a liberal Democrat position, never. You always argue for the right of center corporatist position. Why is that?

Like letting Wall Street off the hook, there are certain things he is expected to hold his nose and get done.

The TPP looks like it basically supercedes member-nation laws and regulations governing everything.

It will likely destroy member nations' ability to regulate the Internet, food safety and genetically-modified labeling, subsidies for prescription drugs, and pretty much anything else one can think of.

If the leaks are true and hold up in the final document, it basically takes the member nations and guts their existing policies to make them de facto American States for all legal intents and purposes, giving corporations the ability to sue to stop any government practices which they believe infringe upon their right to exploit those markets.

I really hope it's not the case, but that's what it sounds like every time I read about it.

H. Ross Perot and his comment about "...that giant sucking sound" that I hear ringing in my ears.

Not a good deal as far as I can tell. I suspect that it will also make our public lands and National Parks available for development. There was a big fight over a proposed gold mine operation just outside the boundary of Yellowstone NP about 15 years ago that didn't exactly disappear quietly into the night when it was quashed by local outrage and environmental policy that was the only tool opponents had to use to defeat the mine. I suspect that will be revived and many other unpleasantries yet untold will take place if this goes through.

It overrides US sovereignty, end of democracy, etc. This kind of stuff actually seems to go back to very early trade agreements.

You know it must be important for them to be muzzling all the major anchors about it.

TPP is decidedly negative -- May he continue to speak of it that way

without joining KO.

And that is what this is about. This is the most potentially damaging piece of legislation for our safety and welfare, and that of the environment. These corporations are headed by pathological group think that have no regard for the short or long term effects that a lack of enforceable standards will mean. We don't talk about the effects of such policies because big business pays to stifle dissent. By any means necessary.
Like more cancer? How about asthma? Immune disorders, bad water, bad air, you name it. Stop thinking corporations have a conscience or any sense of responsibility. They are sociopaths. And politicians that feed at the trough are no better.

He wants unemployment to go down.

Clearly he has a different view than others and it would be interesting to hear more about it so as to hear both sides regarding this treaty.

Also it's apparently not finished.

There's going to be international trade. These treaties are a matter of regulation. Each nation that is a party to them is going to look out for its own best interests in making the agreement.

at the expense of the American worker.

There is no way ordinary citizens benefit from free trade deals. All we need do is examine the effects of the previous trade deals to see that this is true. The President even admitted that NAFTA should be renegotiated.

Why the President is doing this is the big question. Is the President that far right ideologically? Does he wish to deal a fatal blow to the workers of America in a fashion similar to Reagan's firing of the air traffic controllers? Is the President being blackmailed to force him to do the bidding of some unknown powerful criminal elite?

of completely ignoring the inevitable disastrous environmental impact of a project that will line the pockets of wealthy corporations/individuals (Koch brothers) with profit of hundreds of billions of dollars which will likely mostly escape Federal taxation?
After all, what's right is right.

Rather than these assumptions. Obama does come from a good place. It must not be as simple as all that.

doing their usual dance of love with destructive corporate globalism. Remember this thread when they insist to us they're liberals.

Seems we have a dkf clone or two. Celestial Flora perhaps?

Could never understand how liberals can be pro-corporate. Oh they don't call themselves that, they'll think the right way on social issues and profess a desire to compensate those ( ahem, the most of us ) who are losers in global capitalism, but seem OK with what brought it about in the first place.

nt.

He cares about his children and the futures of all children of the world.
That being the case. I would imagine the main reason it is all being done so secretly is because of the industry breaking environmental regulations he is demanding be inserted. Regulations that extend to every country involved and will guarantee to slash carbon emissions in half in five years while shuttering defense contractors as that money is now targeted on renewable energy sources and upgrades.

to fight it. He even brought it up in the State of the Union address.
OTOH, I didn't hear a peep about implementing multinational corporations as the new rulers of the world. Which would of course be the most destructive action one could take in the face of the worst catastrophe to befall our natural world in its history.
So, gotta keep it a secret. If Wall St ever found out, they'd shit carbon bricks.

which is why he's chosen so many corporate tools for his administration.

(I have a feeling you're kidding though - at least I hope so.)

I unfortunaley see it as another ASSAULT on the Checks & Balances our political system is ( was ) based on .