not U.S.....

and Libertarians suck...

But you can't eliminate libertarian ideology without going whole hog for the authoritarian side, in which case Pol Pot, Stalin and George W. Bush would love you for it.

You can kid yourself with that if you want

Just askin'....

We define American politics as different from the rest of the world because it allows us to make up our own definitions of what's "right" or "left."

Since we get to use those terms, and we label someone like Clinton or Obama as "left", or as far left as American politics will tolerate, then we get to ignore all what actually makes up leftist ideologies. We don't get socialists, we get capitalists. We don't get fascists, we get conservatives.

Good job, don't kid yourself. You are not a maverick. Just a follower.

or "work within the system" as the site actually says?

Or am I blindly following the rules on DU?

A maverick would start their own thread.

Authoritarianism is not pretty, is it?

is no where to be found in the DU rules...

sorry!

so far because Democrats have caved to Republicans so often on so many of their insane policies. Wall St Corporations control the 'system' here.

The only way to reverse this dangerous trend is for Democrats to stop enabling them.

Left Libertarians helped us throw out Repubicans in 2008. I wonder why anyone would be working so hard to prevent them from doing so again?

I am sure the Teabaggers are saying the same about the Republicans...

perhaps missed your response.

Put them up against the wall!

NEXT!

Do you support cuts to SS? Pretty simple, yes or no will work.

I like to leave you guessing....


I think anyone with half a brain knows where I stand...I am not exactly stand-offish....

on various topics here, a yes or no is the fucking least you owe us.

Unless you plan on just being a troll, in which case you're violating those DU rules you throw in our faces constantly and should be banned.

How fucking dare you! And I don't OWE you shit!

You threatening me now too?

Like it or not, that's education.

Your refusal to learn or behave constructively doesn't make it any less so. In fact, it makes you even more of a troll.

every dictionary in the world agrees with me....don't make me put that in your face again!

THAT is WHY You are not EDUCATING ME!

put your propaganda where the sun don't shine...this is NOT Anarchist Underground....It is Democratic Underground!

And for the record, I'm not advocating abandoning the Democratic Party for anarchism. I'm advocating pushing the party to the left, and helping you understand concepts and ideologies so you can be informed when talking about them.

I won't let the Left Wing "Teahadists" ruin my country either...

Anarcho-capitalism?


Do you fear John Zerzan's beard? Is that it?

The full 10 in your community might just undermine your neighborhood watch by the year's end, wreaking havoc by dropping flaming poopy bags on your entryway

Its getting CHAOTIC in here!

If VR wants to be an adult about these things, I won't be condescending.

But But, BOT, BOT BOT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OWwOJlOI1nU

longevity than you! I have been flamed by the best, on both sides, yet here I am getting current republicans panties in a bunch. I love it.

3. bot
A program that runs autonomously, and which performs repetitive and/or remotely-controlled tasks, from very simple IRC commands to incredibly complex online game manipulation.

A program that behaves and interacts with other programs as if it were a user.

Short for 'robot', specifically a cyber-robot, almost exclusively used on the internet.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bot

A Republican "Anarchist" thinks he can school me! hahahahahaahaha

I think you are the confused one!

I am a decorated, disabled United States Navy Veteran. What is it that say you have done?

Check out the link.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Og8qBJVcP8Q

The US is suffering under middle-way and right-wing ideologies that have robbed workers and vastly increased disparity. People simply aren't afraid of yesterday's bogeymen (distractions propagated by the right to pacify labor) anymore when today's robber barons are having their way with people's future and the environment.

So, before you continue, employing these right-wing strategies (unwittingly I am sure) the shout down left-wing ideology just simply isn't winning you any arguments or friends. Now, carry on good soldier, avatar of the establishment.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert
At Sat Oct 26, 2013, 04:49 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Over and Over and Over IS a Demand "Republican"!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3928371

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS:

Not just this post in particular, but this poster has been aggressively trolling throughout the thread and denigrating other DUers who are doing little more than attempting to explain things to them.

Please kick them out of this thread.

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sat Oct 26, 2013, 04:55 PM, and voted 5-1 to HIDE IT.

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------

Sadly, VanillaRhapsody is done in this thread.

If needed

That's pretty funny, given the context of the discussion.

To state your position on cuts to SS would, for many I expect, define your politics as either right or left. You seem to realize that.

Pat, I'd like to buy a new strawman

anarchy = chaos...and are anti-govt

What thread can't you work it into? Do breastfeeding and circumcision threads shake out like this too? Cut the foreskin or the anarchists will get you! AHHHH

the Anarchists (anarcho-syndicalists) had established a collectivist, progressive regime in Catalunya, with its main base in Barcelona. They fought bravely on the side of the Spanish Republic against Franco and his fascists.

Anachism is not actually "anarchy" according to the layman's definition of the word, but more like idealized socialism.

I don't believe human nature would allow it to work in the long run, but it is not chaos or absence of order. In fact, it is what OWS was attempting to do with its "leaderless" ideal, and I think it is what some religious groups--like Quakers--aim for, though I am not knowledgeable about their practice, so I am just guessing here.

Again, I don't think it works for large social groups, much less for whole societies, but it is not chaos.

This was the 1930s, and the political battle, at the time, was between fascism and socialism. Those Americans who came down on the side of the Spanish Republic (the anarchists) were considered the left in the U.S. at the time. Later J. Edgar Hoover listed these soldiers as subversives. But they had some notable supporters, all from the left.

Paul Robeson -Honorary member
Dashiell Hammett
Lillian Hellman
Gypsy Rose Lee
Dorothy Parker
Pablo Picasso
Sam Yorty
Helen Keller
Ernest Hemingway
Woody Guthrie
J. Robert Oppenheimer
George Orwell

People often don't have a sense of what certain political philosophies mean, outside of how they are framed by big media. The use of a word, outside of its context, becomes a "scare word."

The reason to support state power is to protect minorities and other vulnerable members of a society from the tyranny of the majority or the tyranny of power itself in the form of money or access or influence. The way this protection is achieved is through legal channels and through re-distribution of wealth to offset and balance power with the needs of the greater public.

The thing about the use of the state in this way is that such uses result in more equality, better democracies, and a healthier, happier population.

Beyond that, the state is there to protect the people within it from attacks on their liberty. The military serves this function, as does the law and the re-distribution of (some) wealth to offset attacks from powers that undermine democracy.

The problem, in this nation, has been the frequent use of the military by financial powers that exploit patriotism for corporate/private gain, rather than protecting the people of this nation.

I can think of three wars that were just and worth fighting in this nation - The Revolutionary War, The Civil War, and WWII. Everything else (tho I could be wrong on this) seems to have been action taken either for imperial/corporate gain or because of ideological overreach.

We now exist as the world's police officer. Does this prevent greater conflict or generate it by our interference in other nations' self-governing... that, to me, is one of the biggest questions about our national budget, fwiw. Not that I think this question can be honestly addressed....

There's already a word for that position. It's called "liberal." Now, there are two kinds of people who refer to themselves as "left libertarians."

The first, and by far most common, is the liberal who wants to imagine himself as some sort of renegade snowflake that will be immortalized on T-shirts across college campuses everywhere. He's a run of the mill, average liberal who has decided that just doesn't sound cool enough.

The second, and rather more rare variety of the "left libertarian" is actually a right-wing nutbag, laying claim to the left, in order to portray everyone who is to the left of him - that is, liberals - as being fascist motherfuckers no one should ever listen to. These are the guys who will talk about how democrats are "keeping blacks on the plantation" and such.

All you need to do to see it is go to any thread where someone is spouting the most illiberal drivel imaginable and wait for someone to say they aren't actually a liberal or progressive. They'll explode with outrage. Of COURSE they're a liberal. How DARE you say they aren't. I mean, sure they don't hold a single liberal position, but they're a liberal, goddamnit.

Free trade is not a liberal position. Being for the government spying on all its citizens is not a liberal position. Being pro-drone strikes because Muslim = terrorist is not a liberal position. Insisting people should never ever question anything anyone in authority says is not a liberal position. Thinking that poor people are just kind of icky isn't a liberal position. And yet accusing people that regularly and loudly advocate for one or all of those of not being a liberal can get you a hidden post.

It isn't just on DU, it's everywhere, of course. I just brought it up as on here because you don't even have to go to another website to see it.

like the far righties are Libertarian...with one thing in common...they want to see the govt ended.

Most DUers occupy the lower left.

That means most DUers are civil libertarians but strongly believe in state regulation of the economy.

That incidentally means a lot of DUers agree with their neighbors on the civil libertarian half of the divide, the capital L Libertarians, on issues of civil liberties.

this is an American Democratic site...lets try sticking to the subject shall we?

American politics is traditionally more rightwing than the rest of the world. Analyzing it based on how the rest of the West handles politics is important in moving us to the left.

Pulling the Democrats to the left and redefining how Americans view politics working outside the electoral system.

A lot of them actually work in the system to fight corporate abuses and advance civil liberties.

You can deny it all you want....but facts are facts...

Anarchism is the elimination of the state, much like in communism, replaced with a horizontal governance structure, as in Occupy.

It's not chaos or every man for himself. It's the elimination of vertical hierarchy and private property in favor of a system where resources all held in common and decisions made among equals.

The idea of the elimination or minimization of the State is rubbish. I don't care if your call it Libertarianism, Anarchism, Marxism or Communism.

You're living in a fantasy world like the Libertarians, if you think the state it going to "wither away" or be drowned in a bathtub like they do.

With 8 billion people on this rock, we need some sort of structure to keep us from killing each other, or to prevent the return of Feudalism, which I think some of the Libertarians would like.

When you start taking the elimination of private property, then that sounds like Communism. I would like to own my own home, and to be forced to live in some mega-apt with thousands of others.

I think Anarchists, Libertarians, Objectivists, Marxists and Communists are all delusional.

And that neither communism nor anarchism call for the abolition of personal property?

I know that a radical change in human behavior is required for communism or anarchism to be plausible, don't think I don't know that.

God, you're talking points just reek of ignorance and stupid Cold War propaganda.

So say I spent my whole life working, and putting my time and money into building a nice home, thousands of books, musical recordings, a large garden, and plot of land where I keep horses. None of which relied on the labors of others.

What happens to all of that?

What are your inheritance laws going to be like?

You might want to rethink this line, cause no matter how much you try to do things on your own, you are still being held up by society, and countless others.

What are the inheritance laws going to be like in an Anarchy?

But I suppose in an Anarchistic group, it would be distributed among the group, or some such.

And that is why I will always be opposed to such a state.

If you spent your life knowing that's how it would go, you'd make different decisions.

Thanks!

Drinking and posting is generally discouraged.

whenever people post the political compass test (which may not be entirely representative of politics or people on DU), most people who do the test here come in at the left/libertarian quandrant.

One big reason is because of the strong support for civil liberties. You'll ALWAYS find strong support for civil liberties among internet communities because the philosophical basis of the internet, initially, as a public entity, was the free-flow of and access to information.

The idea of the creative commons, file sharing w/o profit, communities of choice based upon interests, no official censorship... these are all intrinsic, in many ways, to the entire online communication revolution of our lifetimes.

The left/libertarian quadrant, to me, could be described as "personal freedom, collective compassion."

Politicians, for the most part, have to operate within constraints of a system that people in their private lives and opinions never face. Their opinions and actions are mediated by their participation within a system that requires moderation for wider appeal, that must consider the effects of actions on wider communities...

so, I don't think you should take it as a threat to Democratic party goals, or the working of this site, to note that individuals who are interested in liberal politics are often going to appear more liberal than officialdom on a variety of issues.

...at least that's how I see it.

Or are you saying you 'occupy' it in the way Occupy Wall Street occupied that street - ie wanted to change it?

I get top-left. Very left, slight authoritarian.

As Steve Leser pointed out downthread, it's a chart based off the work of a RW libertarian named David Nolan and of questionable value. It's designed as a push poll to chart as many people as possible as a RW libertarian. I take the results about as seriously as I take my horoscope. I pointed out that I'm top-left to refute the assertion that all Democrats or all DUers are left libertarians.

Generally though, I'm certainly more authoritarian than most of DU. (and a member of the ACLU and PFAW.)

No, it's not a push poll, and it does not try to make people look like RW libertarians. If anything, it tends to put most modern politicians in the top right quadrant, so it tells people they, and the 'centre', are more economically left wing and socially liberal than the major politicians. Practically no-one ends up in the bottom right quadrant - you can see that the cartoons are a bunch of economists and Ayn Fucking Rand.

who originally published it in 1971 it appears:

David Nolan first published the current version of the chart in an article named "Classifying and Analyzing Politico-Economic Systems" in the January 1971 issue of The Individualist, the monthly magazine of the Society for Individual Liberty (SIL). In December 1971, he helped to start the group that would become the Libertarian Party.

Frustrated by the "left-right" line analysis that leaves no room for other ideologies, Nolan devised a chart with two axes in 1969 which would come to be known as the Nolan Chart. The Nolan Chart is the centerpiece of the World's Smallest Political Quiz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart