the Peruvian Presidents plane and searching it for Edward Snowden. I get the feeling that a lot of the official outrage is for public consumption.

of the most powerful super power in the world, no matter how wrong it was. Shame on them and they deserve the betrayal for their lack of courage to do the right thing.

It's ironic that they, as you point out, who so disrespected the Legitimate Leaders of Sovereign states and refused to apologize for it, got slapped in their faces not so long afterwards by finding out they were doing the bidding of a nation who had no respect for them either.

All these events hopefully, will now lead to laws to curb these abuses internationally. And I'm sure that South America is nodding their collective wise heads and whispering 'we could have told you that being a puppet for anyone will always have consequences'. They should know, they had enough of their own puppets for far too long.

ya think they don't do any spying on us and everyone else either ? Just a bunch of hypocrites yapping at the good old USA .

to President Obama's personal phone calls as he talked to his wife, children, friends and political allies? I have a feeling all thise 'pfft, they all do it' people would be so outraged they would be demanding severe consequences for the perps.

Yes, they all have spy agencies and abuse their privileges. But so far I think most of them draw the line at doing something as stupid as listening in to leaders of other allied nations, not because they are so moral, no one thinks that, but because they are slightly smarter realizing the consequences of such actions.

This is pernicious stuff - and exactly the sort of thing the US has done for decades. It should be stopped. If not then we are complicit in it.



(BTW, Iran is still kinda pissed about our tampering in their internal affairs in the 50s. That still hurts the US)

Same for practically every democratic country in the world.

The Germans put up with having our bases and soldiers in the country. Isn't that enough?

The Chinese probably snoop on us. But European allies' snooping is pretty probably really limited compared to ours.

There is nothing wrong with snooping on people suspected of violence or terrorism. But we have no business snooping on people because we disagree with their personal or social values.

We also have interfered in elections big-time in Europe and other places in the world. I suppose we are still doing that. Could you imagine the Chinese government trying to interfere or influence our elections? They probably will. Karma, you know.

Why not demand that other rights be fucked over as well??!!

Unbelievable.

At least the real traitors are exposing themselves now

It has ripped off the baseboards, and we're getting to see the cockroaches. Including some right here at home.

Why even with all the spying and eavesdropping, U.S. foreign policy has still be *mostly* mired in suck? It's like that schoolkid who gets a hold of the test answers in advance and still only manages a 'C'...

and is cooperative. They are looking for advantages for American corporations.

The Republicans complain about big government interfering in private enterprise, but they are the biggest fans of using government spying or whatever government pressure is possible for pushing the interests of the big multinational corporations (or at least their favorites among them).

Big government is OK as long as it supports their personal interests and their corporations. Just don't have a big social safety net for ordinary Americans.

The NSA spying has to stop.

Right?

Where did I leave that violin? I keep misplacing it. Been told it's the size.

What a tool.

Great philosophy. It's okay to do it as long as no one tells anyone about it.

Or something done only by the U.S. I am so confused by the stark difference between the world I see, and the world other people see.

allies and you didn't see the ramifications of such a violation of personal rights? And you didn't tell anyone?

We all knew that countries spy on each other for 'SECURITY' reasons. We did NOT know that this whole NSA spying program wasn't much about 'National Security' at all, or Terror, which they used as an excuse to get the billions of our tax dollars they've been grabbing for the past 12 years and creating huge profits for all these 'private security' corps, like the Right Wing Owned Booz Allen.


Now, more and more it looks like all this spying and the billions of tax dollars we were conned into spending was for the benefit of Big Corporations, it is Corporate Cyber Warfare on behalf of Big Corps that has nothing to do with our Security.

I'm amazed that people still haven't grasped the real scandal here and that they think we are all so stupid we didn't know about spying.

You can be sure our European 'allies' have totally grasped it which is why they are joining forces to begin the process of passing International Laws to stop it.

Spy agencies spy. Regardless of what country or corporation they are affiliated with. 'National security, and national interests are always business inter-related ...I mean, has it ever been any other way? Like Roger Waters' says...it all makes perfect sense...expressed in dollars and cents. I doubt Europeans are nearly as shocked as apparently Americans are.

for national security reasons, as soon as we find out that this is not the case, we should immediately stop the funding, which we cannot afford, as are being told we must cut SS benefits, eg, and start a thorough investigation.

But maybe I'm naive and we are supposed to expect corruption and just even admire and respect it.

I just can't be that blase about it so I guess that makes me 'different'.

or respect anything...but accepting reality might be nice..especially when the subject matter has always been a part of our reality.

law has not been applied. Is there a different reality we are supposed to accept? This 'subject matter' may have always been a part of YOUR reality, but I have not yet met a single person who is not outraged, or was not outraged back in 2006 or so when we learned of Bush/Cheney's violation of the law, and then Congress' cover up for them.

You appear to be part of a very small group of people if this has been part of your reality.

I don't like my phone company, who I pay, spying on me, 'collecting and storing data' without my knowledge and permission. I don't like ANY strangers listening in on my conversations, I find it to be extremely creepy, not to mention illegal.

I dislike it so much I have cancelled my account with Verizon. And apparently of the six billion or so people on the planet, I am in the majority in not being accepting of this 'reality'. I KNOW now for a fact that it was a reality, but unlike you, I don't accept that this is normal and want an investigation to find out how we sunk so low in this country.

And THAT is a reality maybe you will have to accept, that a majority of law abiding people do not want strangers listening in on their personal phone conversations or reading their personal correspondence.

Is a bit of a joke...don't you think? Who writes the laws? The only reason Bush/Cheney were nailed is because they had the audacity to make torture legal. It's not like torture was new to the U.S. We taught it, for God's sake, at the 'School of the America's. I do not worry about anyone listening in to my conversations...I guess I am not as important as you. Accepting reality is a choice. I happen to prefer seeing things as they are, and have been since the inception of this country.

for people's objections to strangers, government agents, peeking in their virual windows or listening on their phones has anything to do with having something to hide.

That is so sad, it was the mantra of the Bush years directed at Progressive Dems and others who view Civil Liberties, Freedom from Government harassment a cornerstone of any Democracy.

You are free to invite the Government into YOUR home to watch your every move, but I am a fan of the 4th Amendment and the Rule of Law, which contribute to a Civil Society.

I am very glad to see that the world wide polls support Democracies free from Government intrusion and harassment.

It's too bad you decided to use the old 'you have nothing to worry about if you nothing to hide' mantra, a variation granted, because that tells me more than you probably know.

I wonder why the NSA is so concerned about the PEOPLE peeking into their activities?

It's strange because if they were not doing anything wrong, they would not be so concerned about hiding what after all is tax dollar paid for work on behalf of the American people.

Or is it?

I have had many things to hide, and hide from in my lifetime. I can be sure the NSA is not interested in my activities. State and federal officials are another matter..and they I fear...because I know they can do anything they want...depending on where you live, who you are, and who you know. That is my reality. That is my government intrusion. I guess what you would like is for technology be framed in global legal terms...like laws that curtail usage of certain communications? Or having all countries with capabilities get rid of satellites like getting rid of nukes? Making multinational corporations that have more power than most countries stop what they're doing? Or is it just the NSA? Do you mind if China has the capability to listen to your conversations? Do they?

my data. I have zero to hide and never have had, but peeking toms and stalkers are violating the law and it is also against the law for Government Agents to intrude on the privacy of citizens without probable cause.

It's not difficult, it's simple. Government snooping on its citizens for no reason has a long history and it' not a good one. Which is why we have a 4th Amendment.

I support all those who have fought, and even died, to protect their countries from Government oppression. One of the major signs of a government out of control is when it begins spying on its own citizens.

I hope these revelations will begin the process of reigning in all of these abuses. And it appears that the rest of the world has begun that process now with dozens of countries planning to implement International Laws to curb the abuse of new technology everywhere.

Thanks to Snowden and all whistle blowers who are courageous enough to shine the light on these abuses.

"free enterprise" if you are going to cheat by spying on other countries for their technological and business secrets.

Never heard of anything so two-faced.

The Republicans will spend anything to help GE and Microsoft dominate their sectors, but nothing to help ordinary Americans put basic meals on their tables.

Utter hypocrisy.

That's what the Republicans' real values are. They are simply fascists.

I don't know what Obama's real attitudes are on this. I would like him to come down either in favor of industrial spying or against it.

We don't have any reason to spy on Germany other than for its business secrets. After all, we have military bases all over their country. Military security is a nonissue for us in Germany.

that anyone has a real picture of what goes on at the various spy agencies, because they were designed that way...especially the NSA. I don't think they even have the facade of government oversight, do they? While all these agencies have become behemoths over the years, it does seem to me to be a natural out-growth of what the United States has become. It's hard to believe books like the 'Puzzle Palace', and "Crossing the Rubicon", don't seem to have any relevance in all this. Do people forget that easily?

The one's we build have eavesdropping hardware built right into them. If it's something someone else builds then we park a spy satellite near it and collect the same signals it receives. They have been collecting all of it from every corner of the globe for a long long time and I'm sure that some of the same people expressing their outrage have be benefiting from the intelligence in the past. As I said above a lot of this outrage is for public consumption.

of the entire civilian populations of allied countries?

Who does this other than the United States?

Great Britain has been in cahoots with the U.S. for a long time. There have been plenty of books written about this...it is no 'secret'. The Puzzle Palace' by Brantford, and 'crossing the Rubicon' by Chalmers Johnson..are two that come to mind...and something about 'echelon'. My memory sucks, but apparently not as bad as others. This cat has been way out of the bag.

Thanks for the thread, GliderGuider.

Go play in your Captain Kirk chair a while, you'll feel better when it's over and you have a new place to live. Hopefully Leavenworth.

They must be stopped.

Cameron is no longer "going to maintain the pretense that they are defenders of press freedoms":

I don't even know what to write anymore. It just gets worse and worse.