I used to love rare steak. I had it at least once every two weeks. I had an egg every morning. I also loved sashimi. I thought life wouldn't be worth living without it.

I simply didn't know the facts. I had heard the term "factory farming" but didn't realize how bad it was. And despite being well-read, I was simply unaware of the extent of the waste and antibiotic problem. This is why I think this issue needs to be discussed on DU. I am certain that there are thoughtful meat eaters here who simply don't realize how important this is. It's not their fault: the factory farming industry is doing all it can to hide the truth from its consumers. It's really a shame that environmental organizations don't spread awareness of the issue.

You know its deer season here right now, once i finish my shifts and go on break and going to go get my two a day to fill my freezer just as my neighbours are doing, i got half a cow in there as well, one i watched grow in the pasture down from my property, also a bunck of coneys that my kids snared and shot, fish we caugjt in the creeks, ponds and the river too. Think i will stick with eating meat thank.you.

But thanks for responding aggressively nonetheless.

And thanks for calling me "dumb." How civilized of you.

My post was aimed at "thoughtful omnivores" who still contribute to the factory farming industry. I don't care one bit what you choose to eat. If your conscience allows it, go right ahead. I am not "dumb" enough to attempt a discussion with people who would bully those who happen to have an opinion that goes against theirs.

The OP didn't mention one word about hunting.

You know what happens when you assume. You've well accomplished the first two parts.

You can be a meat eater without being an ass about it you know.

What the person we are both responding to has managed to miss is that the factory farming cruelty isn't about him.

PETA opposes animal domestication. What would you think would happen if mandatory spay and neuter, a big issue with them, were required everywhere? Well, in 15 or 20 years, there would be no more dogs or cats.

That would please Ingrid Newkirk and her ilk to no end. As for farming not existing never mind the reality of the food chain, and that animals don't respect the "rights" of other animals in the wild.

or are against their kill shelters, or just don't like self-righteous hypocrites in general... The list is endless!

should not exist.

That's the dirty secret they don't want you to know about them. The information is out there, and it is from a variety of sources, not just those from any kind big-ag industry.

I hate the outfit because I am pro-animal. They are not. Animals have contributed so much for society, and they enrich our lives in so many ways.

These cretins from PETA would deny us the right to have animals in our lives.

though I would have titled it "Nevermind PETA"

...are rarely welcome as far as I'm concerned. People who choose not to eat meat, or use products made from other animals, and so on are perfectly free to make those choices, and I applaud them if doing so improves their lives. But telling others how to live, or trying to legislate others' morality, is no different than god-bothering, IMO. No thank you.

My post asks "thoughtful omnivores" to consider your question. Indeed, it is not at all directed at you. The fact that it offends you so much demonstrates how resistant you are to considering facts that might challenge your beliefs.

In my book, bullies are the ones who are not welcome. Bullies are the ones who try to silence people who tell them what they don't want to hear. Bullies are the ones who respond aggressively to polite posts.

This sentence, in particular, makes the assumption that the person has not already considered their beliefs, and is satisfied with their choice:

Someone who is aware of how their food gets to their table and decides to eat it anyway does not have to contribute to a discussion of factory farming by talking about all the hunted meat in their fridge. That is bullying, pure and simple.

I never assumed that anyone has not considered their beliefs. If someone is cruel enough and heartless enough to continue to eat factory-farmed meat, knowing what the industry does, then I will simply not waste time arguing with such a person, just as I wouldn't waste time arguing with a Tea Party Republican.

As I stated clearly, I was a meat eater who did not know the whole truth about the factory farming industry. Extrapolating that experience to others on this board is empathy, not arrogance. Your tendency to see it as the latter says more about you than it does about me.

I have NO idea what you are talking about as far as the hunted meat, but let me just say: Bullying? Jesus christ, why don't you worry about people who are actually getting bullied, not people who assume that their way is the only way and that everyone else is lacking in thought and compassion.

The difference between you and me is that I don't care what you eat. Really, I don't give a flying fig.

I often feel like straying and eating a hamburger, going back to my childhood memories and ways of eating, but then I think of the endless lines of cows going to the slaughter and the gun shot to their head, and that helps me curb my desire for a hamburger. I don't want to contribute to that kind of cruelty.

I have been planning to do a post on the cows killed for McDonald's, but have not gotten to it yet.

Early on, I read everything I could get my hands on, because I wasn't sure I could stick to it. It happens much less often now. I think that if you eat a good plant-based diet, making sure you get enough calories and fat, you feel satisfied enough that you don't miss the animal products.

I wasn't much of a hamburger lover, but my husband was. We now eat vegan burgers. He says the fixings are what make the hamburger. I've been meaning to try the recipe on this page; you might want to check it out as well.

or not, that long line of cows is still going to slaughter. so, you aren't really preventing any cruelty.

until MASSIVE amounts of people go veg/vegan, the suffering will still go on.

but go ahead and feel better about yourself

I am doing it to feel better about myself. I am not. It is a conscience thing. Without a conscience, you are capable of anything. I am sure you have a conscience, a code of morality. I think a person should be responsible for their actions and aware of the consequences or what you are contributing to. I disagree that it does not make a difference, for the cows. If you add up all the hamburgers I would have eaten, it adds up to a few cows. Cows are not slaughtered just for the sake of slaughtering them. Decreased demand for cow meat, means decreased number of cows killed.

Eating meat goes back to our very origins as humans. But factory farming is very recent, along with the large scale cruelty that goes along with it.

right, you are doing it so your conscience doesn't bother you.

As to your last comment and your roll of the eyes, what the hell? Don't you like to do what you know is the "right" thing to do and doesn't it make you feel good about yourself? Do you recycle? Do you turn out lights you aren't using? Do you show consideration to others? Do you care about injustice and try to do something about it?

Do you ever do anything just because it's the right thing to do even if it only makes a difference if everyone does it?

I don't understand what your problem with the poster and with vegetarians is, really. You should be thankful there are people who care enough to change their habits in order to try to help the planet and animals and themselves. Hey, thy healthier people are the less your health insurance costs will be.

At least the cow was killed quickly.

Raw plants you eat are ground up by your teeth as they release a flood of hormones and other chemicals as they desperately react to the damage. It's very similar to how animal tissues react to damage. As an added bonus, the parts that survive this onslaught get to be slowly dissolved in your stomach acid.

And cooked plants react similarly as they are slowly killed by the heat. About the only exception is fruit, which is designed by the plants for consumption. But we can not live on fruit alone.

The fact is we're not autotrophs. Something has to die for us to survive.

that bothers me, it is the kind of life they have and the kind of machine driven, kind of death they have.

I think hunting for food is fine, unless the animal's population is threatened, like eating whales or eating tuna to extinction.

is far, far, far, far, far more pleasant than the kind of death plants have when we eat them.

Being shot in the head kills the cow instantly. Being ground by our teeth and then dissolved in acid isn't so quick.

The lives of animals in factory farms is unimaginably horrible.

empathized with plants, being able to engage in what they are feeling, and reacting to that, or is this an intellectual argument?

Also I would think the plant dies after it is taken away from its own food source, namely the water or the earth where it was living. It is already dead by the time you put it in your mouth.

There is no evolutionary/biological advantage for a sessile organism to have developed a pain response. A sessile organism by definition cannot avoid or escape.

Pain is a series of signals within a central nervous system telling an organism that it is being damaged and it should respond, most often by avoiding/escaping. Plants do not have a central nervous system, and they generally have no means to escape or avoid a stimulus.

There is absolutely no scientific basis in interpreting chemical changes in plants as they are damaged as 'pain' or 'suffering.' Plants lack a central nervous system, period.

I'm sure the poster already knows about all those differences between plants and animals, and is only pretending to be so ignorant.

Always willing to indulge in another outrageous act in the name of their belief system.

I don't want to be lectured that I'm going to a Biblical Hell because I don't subscribe to a certain Christian or Islamic belief, and I don't want to be lectured I'm going to a secular version of Hell because I don't subscribe to PETAns animal-rights belief system.

I agree with you.

People who support companies who pollute with no care in the world? Who abuse their workers?

Why are you a Democrat posting on a political board? Presumably because you care about things. About injustices, about the environment, etc...

What makes advocating vegetarianism any different than advocating for no GMOs or environmental protection laws?

There is an anger that emerges from meat eaters (I also eat poultry and fish btw, but I eat little enough of all meat/animal products that I don't think I contribute that much to factory farming) against those who argue for vegetarianism is astounding. Why is it there? Why take it so personally? Don't you get that people advocate vegetarianism/veganism for the good of everyone? What's wrong with that? I don't get it.

As to your last question, that's like saying I'm well aware that my clothing is made from slave labor and I'm making a conscious choice to buy it anyway. That's worse than the false arrogance you are attributing to the poster you are replying to.

I wasn't at all offended by your OP. I was responding to your assertion that "PETA is not the enemy." I agree with you that they're not "the enemy," however I find their message misplaced and their methods alienating. My point was that they are free to choose to eat whatever makes them happy, and to use or avoid products they find ethical or unethical, but that they should not attempt to force others to accept those same decisions.

Here's a case that's near and dear to me. I teach undergraduate general zoology, and EVERY year my Dean gets regular phone calls from lawyers claiming to represent PETA demanding that we stop using animal cadavers to teach anatomy and morphology, or requesting annoyance reports detailing our progress toward that end, and so on. It is harassment, plain and simple. We choose to teach zoology this way because we've considered the alternatives-- at length, I can assure you-- and we've decided that this is the best, most effective pedagogy for teaching intro zoology. Yet PETA continues to call, largely because some student members continually make complaints. My point is that they are perfectly free to choose NOT to dissect animals as part of their university course work, but they don't have any business trying to take that option away from others, too.

You put it perfectly. Vegetarianism/veganism is a personal (albeit completely acceptable if not laudable) lifestyle choice, not something that should be aggressively pushed on others.

am I being a "bully"?

This is a discussion board. If you are not interested in people bringing up topics you might find inconvenient, what are you doing on a discussion board? If you're dead set against changing your diet and are not interested in anyone else's opinion, why would you even read the thread and bother to respond to it?

As for people coming to your door, there are more civilized ways of telling them to leave you alone than to swear at them. Having made phone calls and canvassed for Obama in 2012, I do think that people who swear at political callers and canvassers are bullies. No one likes being yelled or sworn at. It's much kinder to say you're not interested and close the door. You can even mention that you don't appreciate their visit and ask them not to bother you again (although a political campaign would ignore your request). Insulting them doesn't achieve anything and will certainly not prevent future visits.

That's the point. The problem a lot of people (not just me) have with proseltyzin'.... well, anyones, is the assumption that "I know better". You don't know me. You don't know what decisions I've made about my health or my diet or how informed I am or am not.

As for people who come to my door and try to lecture me about Jesus, they're not "political callers". And if they choose to ignore the plaque I have, they absolutely deserve a "fuck off". (Actually it would probably be more like a "I could not humanly be less interested, thanks" because I'm far more polite and tolerant than I ought to be, mostly)

You're someone who knows all there is to know about the factory farming industry and already follow a plant-based diet, so you are offended by a thread that discusses it! Oh, I'm convinced! How dare I tell you something you know already!

And, of course, it's perfectly all right for you to declare you know better. How dare someone else suggest that they know something you don't know! After all, the reason we go to discussion boards is to avoid discussing anything, and not, under any circumstances, change our minds about any issue!

Thanks for clarifying that you are, indeed, a bully and proud of it. I'll keep that in mind in the future.

Here's my bullying advice: Worry about your own fork and your own body. That's why your head is attached to it, and not everyone else's.

And no, I don't follow a strictly plant-based diet. I also don't eat factory farmed meat.

Avoid telling people what to do. It's condescending. If you don't like my posts, feel free not to read them. Note that there is a convenient "ignore" feature. I have as much right to post here as anyone else about an issue I consider important. It is as harmful to third parties' health to support the factory-farming industry as it is to smoke in public places. There is nothing to be proud of about knowingly supporting an industry that commits torture and cruelty, pollutes the environment for everyone, and puts everyone's health at risk. It is not people who point this out who need to be lectured or told to shut up and mind their own business.

I really couldn't care less about what kind of diet you follow. That's your business, and yours alone. It's interesting that so many people see my OP as telling them how they should eat. So many people clearly responded to this thread without actually bothering to read the OP.

dare I suggest that maybe it's your way of expressing yourself that's the problem, and not the problem with a large number of your audience not being able to understand you.

Now, I really don't want to insult or belittle you in any way, because I think you have nothing but good intentions at heart. But I also don't think you should take posts like Warren's as any kind of personal rejection.

especially since I'm really tired at this point. Thanks for the kind words!

Best course of treatment is probably to walk away from the computer for a bit.

"But telling others how to live, or trying to legislate others' morality..."

All politicians and political aficionados do precisely that. Call it 'secular evangelizing' even... as I've had ten times more political rather than religious canvassers come to my door "shoving their point of view down my throat."

Whether they are telling me who to vote for, how to vote or even when to vote... it's all precisely the same thing... only difference is topic.

Something we engage in on DU every second.

You should never have to encounter information on the consequences of a meat-based, factory farmed diet? Even if you don't care about your own health or the deplorable cruelty involved, there are grave environmental consequences that negatively impact everyone. I don't understand why anyone thinks they have a right to be shielded from those unhappy thoughts.

I'm not perfect, but I want to know what the hell I'm supporting. How are people going to learn to make better choices if the information doesn't get out there? Corporate media sure isn't going to do it.

Otherwise, I'd thank you to assume that I'm intelligent enough and conscientious enough to make informed choices myself. It's one thing to make information available, and quite another to make accusations about other peoples' life styles causing "serious harm." Who gave you the right to make those choices for me? How would you feel if I advocated making all vegetarians do their part to support the beef industry?

As someone else remarked up thread, it seems one of the main differences between you and I is that I don't give a rat's buttocks what YOU choose to eat. Thank you for extending me the same courtesy.

We all do "harm" to the world - if only in the sense of depleting resources - just by existing. Can we make informed choices RE: reducing our environmental impact? Of course we can, and we should. But it's not as if vegetarians or vegans are magically exempt from these considerations the minute they "switch."

above other environmental concerns or something. I don't remember now exactly what you said and this board doesn't make it easy for me to see while I'm typing a response.

Anyway... it seemed like you were taking a jab. If you weren't, then great.

But a certain minority of them do seem to have an attitude of unearned arrogance or superiority. Which, to be fair, you'll probably find in any group of people.

I have no particular negative feelings toward any poster on this thread.

Much as I would be if I drove a high-polluting vehicle. It is unequivocally true that these industries cause tremendous harm, so your analogy to advocating that vegetarians support the beef industry is nonsensical.

You said "Who gave you the right to make those choices for me?" Clearly, I don't have that right. You're going to eat what you want, regardless of what I think or say. But why do you think you have the right to silence anti-factory-farming activists? Many people will hear that message and make better choices, even if you're not one of them.

If an action offends you, do not perform it. You are free to eat whatever you wish, as am I. Now please get the hell off my front porch, and have a nice day.

You clearly don't know how factory farming harms the environment or you wouldn't compare people speaking out about vegetarianism to people coming to your house trying to convert you to their religion. Two completely different scenarios.

Do you feel the same about people advocating for higher wages? For less pollution? Or on a more personal level, for treating others with respect and compassion? For turning out lights you aren't using? For saving water? Are you offended at the same level by any of that?
No one is making choices for you. People speak out about because the world would be better off if people ate a lot less meat. It's a fact.

If that is what the op was actually doing. It seems like the OP is trying to start some rational discussion, but getting responses related to other people. Sure, the OP probably should have brought this up without even mentioning PETA, but a group making asses of themselves and using ineffective methods doesn't mean the core cause isn't worth discussion.

Unfortunately it's what some people get up in the morning for.

How many posts on here every day are about legislating something or other, about injustices in life, etc... There's absolutely nothing wrong with advocating vegetarianism just as there's nothing wrong with advocating unions. What's the difference?

The only thing I would say is the poster said a couple things that don't help to have a discussion and maybe that's what you're reacting to? Was/is civil rights a bother to you? Do you think the religious right feels the same way you do when we legislate civil rights? Yet we feel it is completely the right thing to do. It's no different. Vegetarianism would help this planet looking at it environmentally, let alone the needless suffering of animals.

i will support all org and groups that choose alternative diets.

it is not one against the other.

peta gets to own their sexism, racism and targeting kids. they do it purposely. they expect and want attacks. i gotta wonder about the supporters that want to meake them something they are not

but it has nothing to do with animal treatment issues. or a persons personal choice.

It is so easy to focus on PETA and avoid the more important issue of factory farming.

the first error in your argument.

peta has nothing to do with what i eat and my issue doing what is best for my body in my health. i would never consider peta when looking at my dietary needs. that is beyond silly. and it tells me you really did not read or think thru my post.

how do you know i do not have a plant based diet? how do you know i know nothing about the factory farm?

that is not what my issue is with peta. and i am well educated on my dietary health and satisfied with the choices i have made.

Because my OP was not about PETA but about the factory-farm industry. It was an attempt to point out the hypocrisy of focusing on the messenger rather than the message.

I am not interested in your diet. I couldn't care less, in fact. The question was rhetorical. I was trying to respond to your insistent focus on PETA, when my OP was clearly aimed at shifting the focus away from PETA to the actual issue of factory farming.

The vast majority of people -- even extremely smart people -- can't handle the question of a plant-based diet. I sometimes despair for humanity. Is our taste for meat really so overwhelming that we are willing to condone such cruelty?

You really think that a plant has the same feelings as a pig? Or that the lettuce you eat is the same as your dog? And you probably consider vegans crazy.

Raw plants dump out a massive number of chemicals and hormones as they are ground by your teeth. This reaction is very similar to what animal tissues do when damaged. As a bonus, whatever bits manage to survive the grinding get to be killed by slowly dissolving in your stomach acid.

Cooked plants go through a similar cascade of reactions as they are slowly killed by the heat.

The fact that you don't empathize with plants doesn't mean they do not suffer.

Worrying about plants in the same way you do animals .... uh, not so sane lol

and i definitely find this "our children will be horrified" to be the dumbest objection against peta

It's not only their positions that are loony -- how many people support their claim that there be no more pets? -- but their actions are often reprehensible.

If you want to support animal rights there are dozens of organizations who don't present themselves as cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

Fuck PETA!

PETA is making it harder for people with reasonable methods of trying to get people to go vegetarian to even get their argument heard.

(At least most of the ones on online vegan forums -- I don't actually know any vegans in real life.) As close as I am to being vegan, I don't call myself "vegan" because I am not vegan according to the 1944 definition. Vegan forums, for example, don't allow any discussion of whether it's really better to wear plastic shoes than leather shoes. They seem more interested in keeping people out than drawing people in.

However, the reasons to switch to a plant-based diet are too important to ignore. This issue is too important to leave to vegan organizations, precisely because those organizations don't usually do a good job of spreading the facts. People need to know those facts.

Some people have called me arrogant for assuming that people don't know where their food comes from. It's not arrogant at all to recognize that the factory farming industry has done an excellent job of white-washing itself and keeping the facts from the public.

if they're pissing people off with their methods.

Imagine a door to door vacuum cleaner salesperson. For every 100 houses they visit, 10 people let them in to listen to their pitch, and they sell 1 vaccuum. Now imagine that before they got to the house, some loud, obnoxious vacuum cleaner salesperson selling the same thing pissed them off. Now for every 100 houses they visit, maybe 1 or 2 people lets them in to hear the pitch and now they need to visit 500-1000 houses to make a sale.

It seems to me that they just give certain people an additional excuse to avoid the question. Would the people who have been insulting PETA on the other thread have really considered a switch to a plant-based diet if it weren't for PETA? PETA's tactics don't make the issue less important. One might argue that it puts the issue on people's radar screen. That's probably why they do it.

Let me put it this way. Which is worse: PETA or the factory farming industry? Which is more important: PETA or the factory farming industry's abuses of animals, environment, and our health? Which one are we discussing: PETA or factory farming? Is it really all PETA's fault? Would we have been discussing factory farming here if it weren't for PETA? I think that any post on the issue would have sunk like a rock.

are doing damage to themselves?

I honestly don't see what you're getting at.

Anyway, I didn't start this thread to defend PETA. I started it because another thread making the same point was hidden because it was too "graphic." I started it because the issue of factory-farming needs to be discussed. It is simply wrong to have a thread attacking PETA, but no thread about the real issue of factory farming. It is not fitting that we should be supporting factory-farming on a liberal board like this one. It's depressing that liberals are so unconcerned with factory farming. This should be one of the major issues out there. I tried to make this point in my post, but few people appear to have actually read it.

If you absolutely have to focus on PETA, then go right ahead. PETA is the enemy! We must all hand over our money to the factory-farming industry and stuff ourselves with factory-farmed animal products until PETA goes down! Yum yum!

advertising, they could make a difference. Instead we have an organization that makes animal rights advocates look like complete crack heads. They turn more people off with their extreme ways of spreading their "message" than anything else. Do you have any idea how much they have hurt the cause by being the attention whores they are? I hate nothing more than animal abuse and neglect, and how some farm animals are treated - but PETA have no clue how to attract a wider audience because most rational people know that their tactics are disgusting and counter productive. I hate the way they conduct themselves while promoting something I have a lot of passion for. You might think what they are doing is great and all, but they're driving the cause into the ground. I don't understand why you can't see that? If you want to educate people on becoming vegetarian/vegan, that's fine. My advice is to do so with those open to learning about it and get the hell away from PETA. Don't you see how many people just in this thread who cannot stand this organization? It's dominating the entire conversation because that's just how offensive they are. You say they aren't the enemy, but I consider any organization that alienates most rational thinking people from even wanting to learn, then they are the enemy to me because they sabotage a cause that's extremely important to me.

Talk to people who are willing to change their diet, help to change the way these farms are run and help animals in need, but find an organization who knows how to unite people to a common cause. PETA is not the way.

Thanks.

Years ago, people were outraged at one of their ads, in which they showed a woman's lower body with fur in place of pubic hair. Feminists were outraged. As a feminist, I wasn't impressed. However, that didn't make me reject the message years later when I watched Vegucated. So, in my case, at least, PETA didn't discourage me from switching to a plant-based diet. (I actually got a very good vegan flan recipe from their web site.)

Here, they explain that they use shock tactics because they would otherwise be ignored by the media. Knowing how powerful the factory farm industry is, I have a hard time disagreeing with this. They claim that their tactics have increased their membership. I believe them. After all, why would they do something if it really hurt the cause?

with their reasoning. What good is media attention when it offends people? They should be trying to get the message out to those that may not realize what is going on, but rational people are going to tune them out and chalk it up to just another extreme propaganda organization. I do applaud your passion for the subject, I really do. I just think your efforts would be best served with other organizations that spread awareness, but in a proper fashion. Their latest stunt seems like a secret indoctrination of children in the extreme. If I was going to educate children about the subject, I would not go to those lengths. When I was growing up, my mother taught me to be respectful of animals but she would never have dreamed in a million years to teach me in the manner PETA is trying to do. It would have upset me greatly. It didn't take extreme images for me to learn the importance of treating animals the right way. I think my mother did a wonderful job because I am so hard core against cruelty, but I wasn't shocked into those values. I know that not all parents do this at home, but I just think there is a better way, without trying to traumatize children and upset parents in the process.

I have other issues with PETA which is separate from their ad campaigns, so it runs deeper than just that. It's hard for me to support some of the things they do. They have the right message, being against cruelty, but their delivery system is hugely flawed. I hope you don't take this personally, my anger is directed at them, not you.

First of all, I really appreciate your tone. I don't find your posts offensive or hurtful at all. This is a discussion board, after all, and any topic worth discussing will draw disagreeing voices. (If we didn't believe in dissent, we wouldn't be liberals.)

My goal in this thread was not to defend PETA. There was an anti-PETA thread out there, which attacked PETA with harsh language, without mentioning anything about the more important issue of factory farming. A separate thread tried to address this but was hidden for technical reasons. Since my thread was in response to the anti-PETA thread, I started it by pointing out that PETA is not the real enemy. Indeed, I'm sure that even people who don't like PETA's tactics would agree that, in the grand scheme, PETA is not worse than the factory farm industry.

Currently, I support the Humane Society. The reason I chose to support them rather than PETA was that I believe, like you, that a gentler tone is more effective. However, I am intrigued by PETA's claim that they grew their membership through shocking ads. I will look into this over the weekend, keeping in mind your points as well as others that were made. Thanks for the discussion!

I can be a little over the top, I know. I think you're genuine in your beliefs and I understand why PETA can seem appealing. Not all their ads are bad. Sometimes it's just a simple ad educating about something like not leaving your dog in the car when it's hot, unfortunately some people still do that. At my State Fair just this past summer, someone did that, unfortunately by the time the dog was noticed, she had died. I don't know what possesses people to do that.

I'll tell you about something I saw in a Canadian video (I live about an hour and half from Canada so we picked up a couple of Canadian channels on TV) when I was about 9 years old. I already hated cruelty or seeing an animal suffer, but what I saw was traumatizing. It was a short video about a certain trap hunters used there that they wanted outlawed. I can't remember what it was called, but it was the sort of trap that gradually tightens on the animal over time. They actually showed animals being trapped in this video, and I had to see them suffer. I was mortified and devastated. I know this was more graphic than PETA's picture of the turkey, but it upset me greatly. Another reason I'm overly sensitive is at 16 I actually witnessed someone who did something awful to an animal and it has stayed with me ever since. That further traumatized me. As I said, I was firmly against cruelty before these events, but the video and what I witnessed as a teen, made me so sensitive about it that I get very distressed. It's something I could have done without.

So again, I appreciate what you're trying to do - your message is good. I just think mentioning PETA takes away from that message. I'm glad you give support to other places too. I very much appreciate any help you provide.

that the ad won't traumatize any children. It just didn't seem very likely to me, since kids' cartoons and fairy tales are full of the most horribly cruel and violent acts. But you seem to be a case in point that kids can feel traumatized. Thanks for explaining that. I agree that, at least with respect to the Thanksgiving ad directed at kids, PETA may have done more harm than good.

I don't currently support PETA. I'm considering supporting them but will think about it further before doing so. (Sometimes, if you support an organization, you have more influence with them. Organizations usually pay more attention to what their paying members think than what non-paying critics think, since they can never tell whether a critic would have ever supported them under any circumstances.) At the very least, I need to sleep on it for a few days, since this thread has been a bit of an intense experience for me!

people, and certainly not all their employees are either. I can understand why they think they need to be extreme to get attention to their message, but it's not going to resonate with those who find it offensive and I fear it hurts the cause. There have been a lot of allegations of wrong doing, some are a matter of record, some could be just fabrications. I would say do some more research about the organization, see if any of it makes sense to your mind or not. Not all their ads are offensive, like the one I saw in the TV Guide today, was fine (promoting going vegan), there was nothing offensive about it, I just wish they did that all the time!

Anyway as I said, you're a good person, you genuinely care about protecting animals and for that I appreciate you. I wish more people took it this seriously!

What you wrote about lasting pain and trauma from seeing images of tortured animals. I know exactly what you mean, and it doesn't go away. Now I know I have to be careful not to watch graphic footage or I will be a non-functional mess.

But what I suffered is nothing compared to what the animal suffered and I recognize the priority is to get the information out there, so positive action can take place. Even though you and I may be extremely sensitive, there are a lot of people out there who desperately need to be sensitized to such cruelty. If we hide the brutality - sweep it under the carpet - nothing will ever change.

Same with the obscene wars. If it were up to me, the public would have to see graphic images on their televisions every night of exactly what their tax dollars are supporting, much as they did during the Vietnam era - and back then it made people push back. TPTB have learned that if you sanitize the graphic truth from the public, they stay complacent.

I wouldn't have a problem if PETA did show graphic videos or pictures of actual cruelty, which I know they have in the past. The ASPCA and Humane Society do it all the time. I can't bear to watch them, so I don't because I'm already passionate about it, but I hope it inspires others to get involved. My problem with PETA is the way they try to raise awareness. It has made a lot of people turn away from them. For example, telling pregnant women that if they eat chicken, and they are expecting a boy, they will end up lacking in the genitalia department. I don't know what study they are referring to, but I've never heard of such a thing. A lot of pregnant women eat chicken. There is either an awful lot of men out there who are smaller than average, or PETA is having a joke. I don't know, maybe I should take a poll, ask all the men if their mother ate chicken while pregnant and state what their size is, see if there is a correlation there lol.

with their killing of pets deliberately in North Carolina granted it was 15 years ago, but still sickens me
killing any animal left on their doorstep by people who don't know their stand on pets.
Killing lab and farm animals by setting them free in the wild. Remember when they freed all the turkeys on the turkey farm and bred turkeys drown in rain and can't feed themselves? or animals from a lab that had bgeen raised in cages and could not fend for themselves?
They claim to save animals and spend a lot of money on self promotion
they attack people without hearing the whole story, like one person who accidentally ran over their cat and were very distressed about it became a target for them. there have been others, they even threw blood at one woiman wearing fake fur because it still looked like fur even though they knew it was fake, claimed she was promoting the wearing of fur - I think it was fake blue fur, endangering all those blue fur animals.

I would never give these people a dime, what ever good they do, they do stupid things to cancel it out.

Are interested in promoting a vegan diet and it's almost like a religion to them. I've been yelled at and given nasty looks by vegan friends for eating animal products in front of them (what they eat is their business, what I eat is mine). We were at a restaurant so it's not like I was serving it to them.

I personally eat a lot of plants, but 90% of my protein comes from meat and dairy. I know this and I know what foods I like, I have stomach issues with, and my sensitive teeth cannot handle. You can tell me to eat stuff I like all I want, but if you don't like it eating is not a pleasant experience.

Not knowing any vegans, I can't say anything about them. My vegetarian friends were very sensitive about my choices when I was still an omnivore. My husband and I follow a totally plant-based diet, for the purposes of boycotting the factory farming industry and reducing our environmental footprint. We go out with omnivores all the time and don't have a problem if they eat meat. If they ask us why we don't eat animal products, we try to explain it to them as gently as possible (because it's hard to go into details when people are eating). However, I think it's important for omnivores to be sensitive, as well, and not make a big deal out of eating animals. It's kind of hard to watch someone eating a chicken when you have read a lot about the chicken-farming industry.

I do wish more people would reduce their consumption of animal products. It would reduce environmental degradation as well as the risk of a pandemic. I'm not sure why it's OK to be against smoking and SUVs, but not OK to be against the factory-farm industry. Why are we supposed to pretend that there is nothing wrong with supporting the factory-farm industry, and that it's perfectly OK to eat factory-farmed animal products?