I don't know - an AP class probably should some time with the Bible as a foundational text - but the Bible as Literature, not as theology. And it sounds like what this teacher is doing is theology.

Bryant

religions and their beliefs. It might actually help kids understand the world better.

But it was only an elective, not required.

I studied it as (ahem) Mythological Studies, which was a really cross-disciplinary program. It always interested me.

like modern-day pop culture with a veneer of Christianity.

"Christian Values" is a red flag for me, and I am a Christian. The reality is that the things Christians should value like care for others are in no way uniquely Christian and I find it offensive to implicitly assume they are.

of the Salem Witch Trials and compared them to the modern day McCarthyism.

I had no problem with that.

It was a class that taught us about the many, many references to the Bible in regular literature. Not at all a religious course. Just factual and informing about how authors use references to the Bible and their likely intention for why they used the reference.

I would not approve of the book your daughter was forced to read and I'd be speaking with the school principal about it.

It's worth pointing out that early pioneers and settlers in America were likely to own three books: the King James version of the Bible, Shakespeare, and Pilgrim's Progress. Those are pretty rich sources for those who could read, even if they had no other schooling.

Google for statements in other religions that mean the same as the ones pointed out by that teacher. Then argue they aren't Xtian values but human values.

I quote the Bible at 'Christians' who don't really know it all. I was well-churched growing up.

we read a few books of the Old and a few of the New Testament, King James version. The teacher was really cool and tried her best to keep the actual religious aspects out, instead wanting us to discuss it as we would any other piece of lit.

but we had a small school and would not have been able to support a class like that. It took a class like the in College and absolutely loved it, as I learned so much about other religions (without any bias towards any one religion). It should be mandatory in high school, also. This country really needs to expand its horizons so that we can understand other cultures in the world.

It only lasted about two weeks but over the years I've realized that my two weeks were more than most.

A Catholic High School. She loved the class, and I was sort of impressed.

The funny thing is of the two professors I could take the class from, one of them was my Dad. I took the other Professor. It was a really interesting class.

... and the teacher chooses some crappy religious self help book? Not only is this coercive, but it also shows really bad taste.

its bs

My daughters had to do 7 Habits for Junior High Gifted and Talented. I was disturbed by it (having done 7 Habits as part of employer training). It gets too close to spiritual belief systems for a public school text.

11th grade - Why not Heart of Darkness, A Farewell to Arms, Julius Caesar, Portrait of an Artist, etc? That is 11th grade English. Go out on a limb and read Black Boy. Anything but a hack written self help book.

Honors? AP Lit or AP Lang?

In what context are they exploring this book? In other words, why did the teacher say that they were going to read this particular selection? Is this part of a larger unit of study?

If you are concerned, these may be the angles that you need to examine.

What they have read so far are "The Crucible" and "Of Mice and Men", which are obviously well known and very influential novels of the 20th Century.

Those are valid questions you raise. Why are they reading this book? It is nothing more than a sappy, self help book with a lot of biblical references thrown in. We are a bit baffled at this point.

Maybe this book and the resulting religion-based discussions will end up being a one-time type of activity. In that case, it might be worthwhile not to say anything, especially in a subjective class like English where your grade is not based on quantifiable things.

Caveat -- is your daughter going to be tested on this book? Will she have to write a paper based on this book? How will the teacher grade? You will want to pay attention to what happens here.

If you decide to keep quiet for now, I would recommend that your daughter be vigilant about whether or not a pattern is emerging. A pattern would definitely be a reason for you to visit an administrator.

I have been a boat rocker (in the state to your south) and it is not an easy path. Fortunately for my kids, the boat rocking didn't directly involve their teachers, classes or even particular schools. Rather, it involved the school system as a whole.

If you decide to say something now or in the future, make sure to do your homework--be well-researched and well-organized and unemotional. You want to be regarded as a professional, not as a "complainer."

Good luck to your daughter! I hope the class situation improves.

It sounds not just inappropriate from a church/state standpoint, but also not like literature. There are so many wonderful books in the world the kids could be introduced to, that could inspire them to become lifelong readers, and they're reading a Christian self-help book?

To Kill a Mockingbird?

A local district has it in 9th grade.

I assume that's where there are in public school curricula as well. (I don't know. I graduated HS 15 years ago and went to prep school from 7^th grade onward.)

Regulars English.

"Red Badge of Courage" was the most. fucking. boring. book. ever. He went to battle he ran away. He "found" himself. The end. If that shit doesn't turn a student off of so-called "literature," I don't know anything else that would.

Now, "To Kill a Mockingbird?" Complex characters, culturally-relative, historical, multi-dimensional, and so much more. Now THAT'S literature.

I went to HS in Southern California. We read "The Godfather." No, I'm not kidding.

My point was I think students should read actual literature.

Different states are implementing it now or soon. For example, in Grade 9 English, the kids get a chart (rubrics) that they have to be aware of when writing an essay on a book. Their score is determined by how closely they hew to each part of the rubric chart. Non fiction books are supposed to be a part of the common core, presumably because Bill Gates finds it frustrating that folks don't find technical manuals as enjoyable as actual literature.

I've found that our English teachers are doing fine with the new grading technique and it provides the kids clear guidance. But it really only works because they have 18-20 kids per class and have time to actually read and grade essays.

that keeps money flowing to publishers, tech companies, consultants, etc., but not to teaching.

My second thought was that it was a crappy choice for a non fiction book

This is why we NEED a common core.

Here's part of what the Common Core suggests for grades 11-12:

Best class I ever had. Today I read a lot of technical writings. I still look for proper punctuation. I do not find it often.

crappy books.

A little bit in regular English classes and quite a few in Honors (I'm AP approved, but for one reason or another never teach it). I teach mostly eleventh and twelfth grades. I teach it when it becomes foundationally necessary for reading the main text, e.g. Exodus when reading Grapes of Wrath.

I suspect that it can be done right, because the kids never know what religion I am, and I have many students come to me after school and either want to discuss their atheism or think that I would fit in well with their church.

I also think that classroom discussion of controversial topics is one of the best things about teaching seniors. However, if the students were able to clearly tell the teacher's own views, the teacher was probably making a big mistake. Many teachers, when the subject is something they're passionate about, forget that the teacher's role is to spark debate and guide debate, not to actually debate.

I agree. In many subjects.

I majored in Political Theory in one of the best undergraduate politics departments in the US and my department chair, also the director of our Political Theory program¹, is one of the most-respected academics in the field of Political Theory in the world.² Until last month when I was working on a local campaign he donated to...I had no idea of his political leanings. He's gone 30 years as an academic steadfastly refusing to reveal his personal politics as completely irrelevant to his pedagogy or the subject matter. It's one of the games the undergraduates play: Guess Doc's personal politics? He drops no clues whatsoever.

1: The Politics dept. has three majors: Political Theory, American Government and Comparative Politics (which offers specializations in International Relations and World Politics. The other two offer specializations as well but I point out the IR and WP tracks because that's always what people ask: "Why no International Relations? Where's the major for global politics?&quot

2: He's one of those guys that other academics and pundits read when they want to actually understand the 200+ years of American political philosophy that got us to this point. He eschews the limelight except where the topic is very wonky and historical so no punditry on MSNBC or CNN or in Politico, NYT and WaPo for him.

I would not tolerate this.

I've known social studies teachers who took sides because one side was weaker and there'd be no real debate or because everybody was on a side. Sort of "going native" for the sake of the debate. Depends on how she argued. No info.

A lot of schools are pushing non-fiction. The kids I teach can't read. They "read" the Great Gatsby, To Kill a Mockingbird, and other stories but they read for gist, for interesting details, to put their own interpretation and understanding on the author.

Part of the reason is to evaluate arguments. "If it's in print, it must be right" is a simple-minded idea that many kids sort of have. Or they denounce the contents entirely. Either/Or, without touching Kierkegaard. Can somebody who couches an argument in completely foreign terms still have a valid point?

Look for a lot more non-fiction in English classes. Literacy is more than literature.

1. Have you spoken with the teacher about it? That would be the first place to start, and I agree, this is more than a little odd.

2. The CCSS is requiring all of us to teach more non-fiction, so I'm thinking this might be the way teacher is doing that. Here's the thing, though--someone had to approve the addition to the curriculum, and someone had to approve the book purchases.

3. The law is very clear--we are allowed to use the Bible as literature, but that's it. We can speak about faith, but we cannot proselytize, and definitely cannot do Bible studies.

0.) My wife is an avid knitter also!

1.) We just found out today in a text from our daughter, who explained what was going on. So, no we have not discussed this with anyone at the school.

2.) The book is listed as fiction and is definitely fiction. I have no clue as to what the decision process was, as the other two books they have read are "The Crucible" and "Of Mice and Men"

3.) My daughter feels that they definitely crossed the line with the discussions about faith. She referred to it as "illegal" in her text.

That's awesome about your wife--if she's on Ravelry, tell her to friend me. I'm Bina over there.

I'd say it's time to talk with the teacher to find out the reasoning. If the reasoning is bunk, then it's time to go to the principal and make it very clear that you expect this to stop. We are not allowed to teach faith, and it really sounds like the teacher's crossed the line here.

As an aside, I've taught AP English. The two pieces they've read are very appropriate. This one? Not so much.

But it's soooo not right in an actual public school.

the concert last month that brought at least 3/4's of the attendees to tears (me included). I was really surprised to see a Democratic president honored in such a way here.

in South Florida and would not even consider assigning or teaching religious texts. She, like me, is an atheist.

There is some classic literature that has a Christian bent that would be perfectly acceptable for an English class, but this doesn't sound like it.

Seeing as to how she is the one who brought it to our attention, it will probably be likely.

Pilgrim's Progress, or even The Screwtape Letters are works I can see being read in a lit class, but this? This seems like a teacher assigning a particular work not due to the scholarly merits of it, but simply because she digs the author's faith/world-view.

In the early eighties, we were given a list of reading choices... is this not done at your child's school? They simply assign one book, love it or leave it?

As to your comment about the books choices, there are the class assigned reading (which this is part of), and then there are books that you can choose to read. This one was a class assigned book.

Here is what I found. The title of the book is "The Traveler’s Gift" not Guide.
http://www.andyandrews.com/downloads/pdf/Andrews_TTG_ReadersGuide.pdf
Reader's guide
The unique narrative of The Traveler’s Gift blends entertaining fiction, allegory, and inspiration, with a touch of self-help. It is a front-row look into one man’s journey of a lifetime.
David Ponder has lost his job and the will to live. When he is supernaturally selected to travel through
time, he visits historical figures such as Abraham Lincoln, King Solomon, and Anne Frank. Each visit
yields a Decision for Success that will impact the entire world. Then, a visit to the future reveals the
result of David’s journey, the fruits of his labor.
This Reader's Guide was created to facilitate a better understanding of the life-changing principles
expressed in The Traveler's Gift. These questions may be used for group discussion or personal reflection.
It is the author's hope that your exploration of the Seven Decisions and the inspirational teachings will
lead to an extraordinarily fulfilled life and the desire to share the Decisions with others.

and it's the Traveler's Gift, not Guide.
http://www.amazon.com/Travelers-Gift-Decisions-Determine-Personal-ebook/dp/B00ETK822K/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384298488&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=%22The+Traveler%27s+Guide%22+by+Andy+Andrews

I would raise heck about this obviously Christian text being used in a public school lesson this way.
It's from HarperCollins Christian Publishing for gosh sakes.

It's listed as "self-help fiction"
whatever the fuck that is....

I'll edit my OP. That is the book.

by Andy Andrews.

From Wikipedia:

The Responsible Decision
The Buck Stops Here.

I will not let history control my destiny. Harry S. Truman

From this moment forward,I will accept responsibility for my past. I understand that the beginning of wisdom is to accept the responsibility for my own problems and that by accepting responsibility for my past, I free myself to move into a bigger, brighter future of my own choosing.

As I have said elsewhere here, it is sappy reading at best, and nowhere near something that should be serious reading material for an English Lit class. There is definitely a christian undertow to the book with quotes from the bible that our daughter pointed out.

I read the chapter about Gabriel, which is what pushed my daughter over the edge, in addition to the class discussion today. You could probably read the entire book in 45-60 minutes. Very light and predictable reading. Hmmm. Maybe the best thing she can do is rip the book to shreds (not literally) as a horribly written piece of crap, that should be avoided at all costs.

mandate for English, something in the school curriculum, or if the teacher has the option of choosing some of the books. If I were going to complain I would use the idea that the book isn't very well written and that there are several superior self-help books that could be used. It's not adapted for children or high-schoolers so there's not an "age-appropriate" factor involved.

I took one of the first AP English classes in my district in 81-82 and had to read parts of the Bible for class. Since it was considered a college level class, and the teacher had to be qualified to teach college (she had her Masters) the normal rules didn't apply. I didn't agree with anything she said or taught but I had to suck it up. Your daughter shouldn't face that since it's not AP, just giving you a heads up in case that situation presents itself with AP classes.

religious books in English class. That's what religion class was for. We got lots of Shakespeare, and the eleventh grade was dedicated to Nineteenth Century English authors and poets. I would complain if I were you. This is not preparing her for a good university.

We studied science in science class (evolution all the way), we read literature in English class (or Literature class) ... we went to mass every morning ... other than mass, i don't recall there being a whole lot of religion

We got all the crazy then, the saints who were boiled, crucified, or who could levitate and talk to the dead. This is where we got all the tales of demonic possession and exorcism. We were also taught all about the end of the world and how Jesus and Mary still walks among us. (They didn't die? Did they?) Fortunately, all the crazy was confined to that one hour and other than that didn't cross over to the academic part of the curriculum.

There were the novels about lost souls who found themselves with the help of angels or The Virgin or Jesus and sometimes they were assigned for this class, but they never found their way into our English classes!

Understanding "The Grapes of Wrath" or "The Scarlet Letter" is somewhat easier with an understanding of the Bible.

Actually read the book?

I don't know whether this particular book is appropriate, but I remember the furor over The Color Purple (and any number of other books) which the right wing tried to have banned without bothering to read it.

The presence of biblical quotes (or quotes from the Quran, or any other sacred text) does not bother me in and of itself. All writers bring their own bias to whatever they write (as well as the bias of their times). That doesn't necessarily make the book inappropriate.

I would encourage you to first read the book and evaluate whether book is teaching religion - or whether it is an inherent part of the character of the protagonist (in which case it forms part of the discussion of the book in the context of how it influences his life - which is not the same as the book being Bible Study).

From your description of your daughter's reaction (highlighting the biblical passages, and being livid), I wonder if it didn't color her perception of the class discussion. I know my daughter could easily (even at several years past high school) misinterpreted a teacher's instructional bias if she had already fixed in her mind that the teacher was biased by - for example - reacting strongly to the presence of bible verses in the book.

You might want to contact the teacher and ask, in a neutral way, what is going on. If she intends for it to be bible study - then you have a fight on your hand if you want it. If she doesn't intend that, then it is a good time to have a discussion with her about how her presentation is being perceived, at least by your daughter.

One teacher site says it's nonfiction while another says it's fiction, and there's no lexile score. In all reality, our curriculum and reading lists are so massive, the real question is why the teacher would waste instructional time on something like this when there are so many other books available in the same vein.

Is that hard to find now? (that's posed as a serious question -- not snark)

WTTMH is still an excellent collection of Vonnegut shorts.

Teachers of English (the official national organization for English and Language Arts teachers) has clear guidelines for helping parents "opt out" of readings they believe are detrimental to their child's development.

You should write this letter because, first, you have the legal right in all states to determine the content of your child's learning; and second, the teacher has the professional responsibility to give you other choices that develop your child's reading, writing and thinking ability without the undesired content of his/her choice.

This was a very bad decision by this teacher, an unprofessional decision, and s/he should have to be 'called on the carpet' before his/her superiors and the public. S/he should never teach this text again.

You should help other parents avoid this problem by expecting the English Dept.and PTSA to jointly draw up with an approved list of grade level readings that parents, generally, find intellectually relevant to college prep curricula.

I've had 35 years in the high school classroom; I've also held a publicly elected position in my Local School Council, a governing body for my high school; so I'm sure about your legal and parental rights regarding your child's curriculum.

So if I want my child's learning to exclude evolution (and include "intelligent design&quot it is my right to demand the school accommodate my determination as to the appropriate content of the science curriculum?

While it may be true in some states that you can have your child opt out of certain content (it is most common in sex education or controversial literature) it is not true in all states or all school districts even for controversial content. And certainly not as a general rule.

In California, for example, you do not have a right to opt your child out of this particular assignment. The curriculum areas in which you are permitted to opt a child out are certain parts of sex-ed, and surveys regarding health behaviors related to sex ed. Aside from that, "parents do not have a right to prior written notice and opportunity to opt out of any part of public school curricula under California law." http://www.casafeschools.org/OptOutQA.pdf

So - regardless of what the Teachers of English suggests, in California, would be out of luck with any teacher who chose not to accommodate the request. (And California was just an easy state to find - it is not the only one where the parent would not have hte opt out right for this book.)

about right now, isn't it.

Don't put words in my mouth. "Opt out" is not a blanket right for the scope and sequence of curricula across ANY states, and has limited use in the realm of local reading lists.

States' publics' decide on the states' children's curricula. So don't think that a parent can rewrite curriculum at the school level, or that I'm telling her this. I'm reassuring her that in the realm of READINGS within a given unit, she can have her child read an equally skill-building text that the teacher has a responsibility to let her choose. That's it. Don't try to extrapolate some "misunderstanding" on my part, or some issues for me to have to answer to. I'm giving advice limited to this parent's context alone. Local ENGLISH subject readings are within the parents' local rights to question, and those readings must be within the concept/skill range set for that subject and grade.

Now, define curricula under California law and you can more credibly make your argument. Otherwise, I hold that any RANGE of books within the California state curriculum meet state guidelines. In this case, this teacher's choice would probably not have been approved under CA law, anyway.

And any teacher who won't accommodate parents' requests is not professional. Teacher autonomy is not absolute. At every state level in the country, teachers may not be told HOW to teach content, but they can legally be told WHAT to teach, along with the appropriate developmental scope and sequence they're told to, so let's not go there.

And I say that both as a lawyer (currently) and a secondary teacher (for 11 years).

In California (which I am only using because I quickly found a clear recitation of the law regarding parental rights regarding curricula, with citations to the underlying law), a parent does not have a legal right to have her child not read a particular book (which is what opt out means). The school district, or a particular teacher, may choose to accommodate a request - but it is not a legal right.

As for schools not being able to tell teacher WHAT to teach, I'd love to see your legal references for that, since it is just not true.

And, to be clear, I am not saying your practical advice is a bad way to proceed - just that you have your law wrong.

ETA: As to your suggestion that the language you used ("you have the legal right in all states to determine the content of your child's learning&quot and the language I used ("opt out&quot were addressing different issues - the introduction to the document I quoted from makes it clear the document used them interchangeably:

I'm not referring to "core curriculum" readings approved at state levels. I said, " At every state level in the country, teachers may not be told HOW to teach content, but they can legally be told WHAT to teach, along with the appropriate developmental scope and sequence they're told to..."

How that usually works at the state and district levels is through curriculum content changes made by the public's professional representatives, not by a lone parent. At the school level, that means that state core readings aren't changeable. Teacher-assigned non-core texts are. Every district and school has the means to change non-core readings, and that change starts with the very good advice I gave to madinmaryland. Remember, this is presumably happening in Maryland, not my state of Illinois or your state of California.

You need to reread my post. I'm saying that madinmaryland has a legal right to request an accommodation,not run roughshod over her child's English curriculum, or any other child's readings in that classroom.

You may be a lawyer (or were, I don't know how you can be a teacher and lawyer at the same time, but I suppose it's possible), but you don't necessarily know school law. If you took school law as part of your certification process, I'd be surprised; or if you studied school law in law school, you might have forgotten a few details about school curricula, if it was even part of that study. Nevertheless, I don't know you, but I'm pretty well acquainted with school law and curriculum development across states. You'd have to put forward something more credible to me than a law degree or even eleven years of secondary teaching, now, seeing as how you misread what I wrote.

Parents, under state curricula (NCTE guidelines don't dictate legal rights, but do give a range of advice for teacher and parent readings decisionmaking) still have the right in English classes, to examine the list of readings in advance of their classroom use, and expect the teacher to honor their request to have an equally appropriate reading for THEIR own child if they have fair reasons to reject an assigned reading on a case by case basis. Schools' principals usually communicate some procedure for this.

This goes on all over the country. If it doesn't in California, perhaps you've either not been aware or you really do live in another country. If teachers in California don't have some professional input beyond the approved CA core reading lists, then they are indeed professionally limited.

I wouldn't put down another professional's advice about how to handle what's clearly a bad reading choice by a teacher before I reread the poster in question, though. Not cool. Kinda rude.

Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:00 AM - Edit history (1)

"We've reviewed the material in 'The Travelers Gift' and we find it in opposition to our family's faith tradition. We request that she be offered an alternative reading assignment."

..or not.

I feel, at it's best, that education should be the "Marketplace of Ideas." Let her read it, draw her own conclusions, and write her reports and test answers accordingly.

one book is just one bucket from the well, yes?