General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsChomsky on Porn
Seeing how much so many really, really hate the fact this video exists and are doing their best to pretend it's not real, I MUST thank Seabeyond for her priceless find.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)BainsBane
(53,092 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)BainsBane
(53,092 posts)You need not worry about my relationship with Seabeyond, I assure you.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)And I don't worry about Sea.
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)that sisters share.
I told her I was using it. What you fail to understand that this is about the issue. You see everything on this site as about who you like vs. who you hate. For Sea and me, it's about equal rights for women.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)I don't hate anyone and I find that accusation insulting. But, that's not unexpected from you.
As to giving Sea credit, it wasn't about her. That's just a common courtesy that's normally practiced by the decent people on this site.
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)but you track everything I say on the site, send SOP alerts on my OPs, and post snarky comments in response to me--irrespective of the subject matter. If it's not hate, it's some odd way of expressing affection. I'm going with the former. The insinuation that I'm not "decent" confirms that. Anyway, I really don't care. How you feel about me is your problem.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Is it so hard to believe that some people just don't hate? So, now I'm a hater and a liar. It looks like you try to make people hate you.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)ogradda
(3,411 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)I guess it's true.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)BainsBane
(53,092 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:41 PM - Edit history (2)
And Hustler is a magazine for heterosexual men.
Edit: Actually the content and issues may change. I don't know all of the issues involved for men in homosexual porn, or homosexual men in porn of any kind. The issue of women's rights applies to women as well as men. I find it fascinating how the charge of heteronormative is used so often to refer to men only, as though no gay women exist.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Hell, I liked Hustler when I was a kid and my taste was pretty questionable.
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)but it's target market and primary audience is heterosexual men.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Not quite your world-view.
Don't know why, but almost every Lez I ever knew in the service (don't get me wrong, wasn't that many, not like they were all over or anything) all loved that mag.
xulamaude
(847 posts)of two women are in 'heterosexual' internet/magazines.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Cool, let me get popcorn.
xulamaude
(847 posts)I've made over my lifetime and having been in the company of many men and many lesbians (many of them military) for my entire life.
IOW I grew up on Hustler.
ETA - and I agree with Chomsky even though he was unaware of "The Hustler" and I was
ETA.2 - first time I was exposed to Hustler I was 9 years old
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Also I thought I was responding to BB nm
On painkillers due to hip injury and I am a little out of it.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)women.
Not all porn involves women at all. Some is all men both as actor/participant and viewer. There are no women there to be exploited.
Some porn is exclusively women and doesnt involve men at all either as actor/participant or viewer. Thus there are no men exploiting women.
Pretending gay porn doesnt exist because its too difficult to fold into your argument doesnt make your argument stronger.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)this normal for superstar geniuses?
But, anyway, if he never heard of Hustler, how much are we to think he really knows about porn?
(Again-- have Annie Sprinkle ask the questions...)
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)"when it comes to porn. I won't, I won't. I won't."
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)the great money they make and the way they are treated as goddesses on the set.
What specifically is the "rights" part that is any worse than the "rights" problems any employees of any gender have in other jobs?
xulamaude
(847 posts)who speak very favorably about being Associates at Wal Mart and how well they are treated.
JI7
(89,279 posts)they are lining up to get a chance to .
xulamaude
(847 posts)JI7
(89,279 posts)i was agreeing with you and using another similar example where just because someone may have said something doesn't mean it's so great.
xulamaude
(847 posts)but, well, you know
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)joshcryer
(62,277 posts)Particularly as it concerns cultural elements. It's actually an area where his analysis falls flat. I believe him when he says he wasn't aware of who Hustler was, but I think it is a cop-out that he didn't get the full transcript to sign off on, that is not a right in any interview format. If you're going to say something own it. If it's taken out of context provide the context. But still own it.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)but he agreed to be interviewed Hustler, was interviewed by Hustler, and had his interview published in Hustler in 2004?
And we're supposed to take this pious CYA job seriously?
Sorry if this is a tangent, but Noam is a hustler's hustler and this is just one more example.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)than some pro-forma cant on a youtube.
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)If Larry Flint printed it, it must be a "seal of approval." Ignore what Chomsky actually says. Jesus. Even you can't believe that truckload of manure.
The extent to which some insist on lying to themselves is truly astounding.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Click here to see the September 2005 Hustler cover featuring "Noam Chomsky" in big, bold, gold letters:
*WARNING: mildly pornographic Hustler cover* : http://www.flickr.com/photos/mindfad/170208310/
Yes, I'd call that a seal of approval, seen by all of Hustler's readers. And yes, I'm calling Chomsky a hypocrite.
p.s. I tried to put this image in an HREF link but I couldn't get it to work.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Anyway I don't give a #@%* what that clown has to say about anything but my advice is to find better advocates.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)man a liar. no backpedaling.... now
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)joshcryer
(62,277 posts)I think he simplified the argument in his head and because he's out of touch with popular culture, by his own admission, he just waffled on the subject and internal contradictions with his argument surface.
In the end he does not believe pornography should be outlawed.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)The zeitgeist has changed a lot since 2005 and what was okay then isn't so okay now. I remember when this article came out and it was greeted with the usual accolades. If there was any grumbling I didn't hear it. Times change and I'm not bagging on Chomsky for doing the interview, just for trying to weasel out of it.
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)The 2011 interview I linked he backs off the rhetoric. From the OP's interview you'd think he would want to ban all pornography, as indeed, you would want to ban all child abuse. But he explicitly states in the 2011 interview that he wouldn't want to outlaw pornography.
Therefore his original analogy comparing pornography to child abuse fails.
aikoaiko
(34,185 posts)That was funnny.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)So it really is about porn in general. So you know what, if you don't like it, don't watch it. As others have posted already many times, it really is simple as that.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)just it is your right not to
and baines certainly has the right to put up a video of a man that many liberals respect
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Just noting that this duer posted a long thread repeatedly saying that the problem wasn't porn, but rape porn, so apparently that was not the whole truth.
I respect Chomsky views, but not so much the OP's. Hiding behind Chomsky is not very brave!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)with porn. and i can give many reason why it is harmful. like chomsky. without being for a ban.
simulated rape porn that is often actual rape though is a different animal. i do not know what baines was saying about the two.
xulamaude
(847 posts)is what Mr. Chomsky has to say about porn in this short clip.
xulamaude
(847 posts)Like child abuse: "you don't want to make it better child abuse, you want to stop child abuse"
- italic and underline mine based on my understanding of spoken US english...
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Implying that consensual adults doing things they don't like in front of cameras is basically child abuse and must be stopped.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)to hear what he has to say about the issue?
odd, that
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:32 PM - Edit history (1)
I don't know how anyone could read my post and think I meant to say anything other than that I believe the meaning of the first amendment is that every American has a sacred duty to find Chomsky and put a ball gag in his mouth.
By no means is it likely or even possible that I meant that I disagree with Chomsky's implication that porn is broken and can never be fixed (inferring it should probably be banned). Nor that I am saying it is hypocritical for other people who had stressed that wasn't what they were saying and were only talking about rape porn, to cheer him on when he says that. No, I clearly meant that I want to personally silence Chomsky and ensure that no one ever gets to hear what he has to say about porn again.
Disagreeing with what he said, MUST mean that I want to remove his ability to say it and that I want to prevent anyone else from sharing those words.
You did it buddy, you unraveled the mystery of my post. No one else could, but you alone have deciphered the cryptic meaning behind my words. It took you personally to bravely looked past what I actually wrote and find the god given truth behind my statements.
Congratulations!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense.
Figure if you're going to do that, I can pretty much just post whatever. Feel free to hallucinate and respond to whatever argument you want to counter, I'll just post gibberish. It is better this way.
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)Check the poster's transparency page and don't waste another moment.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,380 posts)Just god fucking damned well outstanding.
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)Does that mean he does not want to outlaw child abuse?
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Considering the heated exchange we had, I wasn't sure if you had read it. Anyway, I'd be interested in your response.
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)I grew weary of the thread. I appreciate your reading and reflecting on my points and will get back to you later.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)n/t
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:32 PM - Edit history (1)
Yet here we are, having to debate the acceptability of porn in general with the same people who were saying it was all about rape porn.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)It's best not to think about it too much. Frankly, I've lost track of what all they hate by now.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)But my my, by no means are the people advocating that prudes or busy bodies who can't mind their own business. They will scream that at you as they tell you that you are somehow a rape apologist for disagreeing with them on the limits of freedom of speech.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I wonder if I have to stand before the tribunal for that. Oh, also, I like large breasts. According to one of the outrage threads a while back, that makes me a sexist SOB. Of course, even though I personally don't like porn and don't watch it, I have no problem with other people watching it. That earns me a special spot in hell because I'm for that freedom of expression thing.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Get the reasons why instead of just assuming, the reasons. Then i may respect her opinion on it.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Goes from "Rape Porn" to suddenly all porn....One should look hard at these instigators.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)We've always been at war with Oceania.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)0rganism
(23,975 posts)Now it is a short statement, so given that, addressing the industry's maltreatment of females is probably the single-most pressing item on the agenda. But it leaves open a whole range of discussion topics on which he might very well have interesting opinions.
There are men working in the porn industry, willfully and for pay. Is he insinuating that they unable to get decent jobs elsewhere? Or are their roles so fundamentally different that they are not considered degraded the way women are?
There is pornography which excludes women entirely -- is he okay with gay porn?
What about simulated pornography, e.g. hentai? No women are abused in such productions, but the depictions can be at least as vulgar and degrading as anything Hustler has ever published. To what extent is the depiction of a degrading act itself a problem for a society?
It'd be nice to see him take longer to go into a more open-ended exposition.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)So tell me, if me and my boyfriend were to get it on on camera, who would be exploiting who? Or would it just be some kind of mutually assured exploitation?
Does it depend on who is getting penetrated? Please I'd love to know, I want to be sure not to accidentally oppress my boyfriend in the bedroom.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Another is that this class of liberal makes uses the definition of "pornography is violence against women; violence against women is pornography". Everything else is "erotica". Thus, by their definition, there can never be such a thing as all-male pornography.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Considering that me and many other gay people have asked the sex-negativers repeatedly about gay people and all we get is crickets who throw away replies.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)They are so devoted to their "pornography is violence against women" ideology that the concept of anything else causes them to short circuit.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The other response I have seen is that the LGBT dimension doesn't matter because it's just a rare one-off instance.
They don't say that much anymore. I guess they figured out how insulting and borderline bigoted that response was so they know better than to say it.
By the way, this has been pointed out enough to the anti-porn group enough that they all know very well about it and they know they have no good response to it. Anything that detracts from the mantra that porn is nothing but something bad being done to a woman is discarded.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)It shows a real lack of intellectual courage. Rather than accept the argument or disagree with it with a respond response, they just pretend it isn't happen.
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)It is obvious when you piece together what he says but because he takes a more conservative stance personally the underlying intent is lost.
If you and your partner were out of a job and needed to pay rent and someone were to tell you that they would pay for you to have sex on camera, and this is not something that you were inclined to do, then you would certainly be degraded in that respect.
I have doubts that Chomsky is even aware of amateur stuff or the more mainstream stuff that is surfacing these days. Back in the day pornography was about exploitation but with the advent of the internet and HD cameras it is something that anyone can get in to and get out of at will.
20 years ago it was very hard to get out of the industry.
Today you can do it one time, ten times, a hundred times, doesn't matter. You can go independent and run your own service, you can work under the auspices of another more well known name, but you aren't as exploited as the porn stars of the late 80s and 90s and even early 2000s were.
I would bet $100 that if someone asked Chomsky, "What do you think of Kink.com's pornographic material?" he would indeed have the same response as he did when asked about ... Lady Gaga. "I'm not aware of it, I personally think porn is degrading as it is exploitive because of the economic nature of capitalism."
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I do think a lot these "all porn is exploitation" posts are caused because many of these people have no idea how diverse the industry currently is.
By all means, there is exploitation in the industry, but it isn't a universal thing.
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)But I do agree with Chomsky that the porn industry and sex worker industries respectively are currently exploitive under the capitalist system we currently live within.
However, I disagree that they are exploitive as a necessary condition of the product. ie, you can have porn and sex work that is non-exploitive. And I think we're seeing that on the increase as people get access to more and more technology.
And because Chomsky self-admittedly is out of touch with popular culture and doesn't even use computers that much anymore (so much for being an AI guy; don't get me started on his linguistics and AI approaches) he's sort of incapable of giving a consistent answer on this subject.
(already he said he didn't want to outlaw porn while earlier comparing it to child abuse; that does not mean he wouldn't wish for child abuse to be outlawed, as he most certainly would)
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)but it wouldn't matter because as a guy he can't be a victim.
See?
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)it's about rape porn, not all porn, right?
What about the Sports Illustrated swimsuit calendars? Are they okay? How long before we are all supposed to be good and pissed off about those, too?
Kurska
(5,739 posts)If only there was a piece of clothing that could cover an entire woman's body. We could make that mandatory so that no man every gets an accidental thrill by observing a woman's body.
Then women would REALLY be liberated.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I'll have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure they tried that and everything was all sunshine and unicorns and happily ever after.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Clearly once we remove all ability of women to present themselves as sexual "objects" they will finally be liberated and freed.
in case the possible jury can't figure this one out.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Try searching DU for FEMEN & islamism, you'll see what I mean.
P.S. And don't ever call them breasts 'titties', 'tits', or 'boobies'! Never ever!
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Sorry about that. Hope I didn't offend anyone.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)But no 'titties'. Or 'breasties'. None of that nonsense! And them breasts MUST BE COVERED!
'Cause otherwise oppressive pig-man will exploit them by ogling!
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Sometimes she doesn't cover them completely either. Is she a tool of the patriarchy? If so, I need to warn her.
That's going to be an awkward conversation, but we want to be sure to follow the rules.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)On the other hand by calling them a (dreaded) T-word, AND exposing them (even partially) she definitely contributes to the patriarchal oppression.
'Cause that gives you (a pig-man, oppressor, and exploiter) a chance to ogle.
If I remember it correctly, nudity is BAD! Any and all. Unless in the privacy of one's own home, far away and safe from demeaning attention of sexually obsessive he-ogres.
Or something like it.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Do you think she really means that and has an educated, well-informed opinion, or has she been brainwashed by the patriarchy?
As far as I know, the only male ogre she totally exposes them to is me. Do you think that is acceptable to the arbiters of morality, or is it just another symptom of the male privilege disease destroying our society?
So many things to think about. Maybe I need to go read up on some Dworkin Pearls of Wisdom.
Notice how I did that - capitalizing Dworkin and Pearls of Wisdom? I typed it in a reverent tone too. I'm learning.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)That would mean more men looking at breasts (don't mean to offend anyone with that word). That would be wrong. Just wrong.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)And call my tits 'boobies' 'cause they float when we go skinny dipping. Am much, much worse than your wife, who is a saint to compare to me.
But, if you really want to know, just start an OP about FEMEN...
P.S. Respect for managing to even type 'Dworkin' without killing yourself laughing.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)It's possible that you have been brainwashed by the patriarchy. You might even be "looking for a pat on the head." Being a pig-like male (is there any other kind?), I'm not qualified to counsel you. However, I can direct you to a certain group that can tell you exactly how women are expected to think. If you are unsure of your opinion on anything, they will be happy to give it to you.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Am destined for HeL 'cause wilfully enjoy looking at tits and butts. Can't honestly denounce patriarchy 'cause them cute butts...
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Femen are bad, bad, bad because they allow men who are not their husbands to see their boobies and some of those men might enjoy the experience making it twice as bad.
Didn't you get the memo?
Femen are evil! They are satan, beelzebub, Loki, the Boogeyman and Freddie from Nightmare on Elm street (if he was a misguided woman) all in one!
just in case it is necessary.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)We are all in this thread 'cause of pron. Even me... Just caught myself looking through F*M*N photo gallery... Oh my!
http://femen.org/en/gallery
Never mind I love ogling my BF's butt... and thinkin' Evil thoughts like this:
Am so goin' to HeL!
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)It works in our house.
If you can keep singing the same tune, so can I.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/rick-santorum-war-on-porn_n_1353383.html
Seems he's got a support group on DU.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I have often said that liberals who want to ban pornography are unwitting allies of the right-wing fundamentalists. Maybe we need a Santorum group here.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)One of the massive anti-pornographer cheerleading threads in GD linked to one of the worst sort of homophobic shitbaggery sites and channeled junk scientist Mary Anne Layden who said women who watch porn are more likely to be raped.
1) Judith Reisman
2) Ed Meese
3) Charles Keating
4) Susan Brownmiller
5) Andrea Dworkin
6) Mary Anne Layden
7) Catharine MacKinnon
8) Gail Dines
9) Jerry Falwell
10) Laura Schlessinger
11) Sheila Jeffreys
12) Phyllis Schlafly
13) James Dobson
14) Rick Santorum
15) Michele Bachmann
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)the issue is settled as far as I'm concerned. (In case it's needed.)
I've read before that Dworkin and Mackinnon actively cooperated with Ed Meese. The anti-porn crusade certainly brings together some diverse allies.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)No human being should suffer a double helping of Santorum.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I don't mind at all.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)joshcryer
(62,277 posts)This video, like all Chomsky videos, is taking him out of context. Chomsky takes the easy path when he acknowledges his unrelenting failure to understand popular culture.
Jeff Jetton: Is that everyday world that most people find so fascinating ... why is it so uninteresting to you?
Noam Chomsky: I don't know, I just don't care about it. It looks to me pointless and superficial. If I had free time I'd rather read a nineteenth century novel.
Jeff Jetton: In the post-Hustler interviews, you seem to have a rabid distaste for porn, calling it degrading to women. But surely there's a deeper conversation to be had about human sexuality and erotic material. Is it just that all pornography is --
Noam Chomsky: I'm no expert on pornography. The core element of it, I think, is degradation of women, whatever else goes on. I don't think it should be outlawed, but I'm not in favor of the degradation of anybody.
Jeff Jetton: Do you know who Lady Gaga is?
Noam Chomsky: I've seen ads and stuff, but no.
This is a cop out and sadly one of Chomsky's later life failings. This attitude that a nineteenth century novel is less superficial than modern popular culture is bourgeoisie-esque, and really a problem in modern socialist thinking as a whole.
I don't disagree with Chomsky's acknowledgement of the economic relationship toward pornography. But to suggest that he intends that all pornography is bad is a failure to understand that he doesn't get pornography produced by willing individuals in a current, popular culture mindset. Kink is not Vivid, to put it simply as possible.
In the end Chomsky does suggest an understanding in that vein, as he doesn't think porn should be outlawed. Yet I am sure he would believe that child abuse should be outlawed (thus his own analogy isn't a one to one relationship with child abuse and he contradicted himself; the results of age, no doubt).
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)I posted the video. He doesn't know Joan Jett and many here don't know Gramsci. So? Would intimate knowledge of porn convince him that it did not involve degradation of women? If he only could watch everything available on the internet, it would convince him it really wasn't so bad?
Yeah. Right.
Chomsky is an academic. It's hardly unexpected that he would value arts and letters over commerce.
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)Therefore his opinion on popular culture will lack consistency.
He stated in 2011 that he does not think that pornography should be outlawed.
Kingofalldems
(38,496 posts)Chomsky is right again.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)This is patriarchy in 5 words or less.
I'm ambivalent to porn, but it's infantilizing to demand censorship on that basis.
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)So does he want to not outlaw child abuse?
Doubtful.
Just a later-life Chomsky commenting in areas that are beyond his expertise, imo. By his own admission that he doesn't pay attention to popular culture.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)that the performers are choosing to do it.
As much as I'd like to make coal mining safe, and push the lifespan of the average coal miner beyond 57 years, I have to concede that even though circumstances have conspired to encourage them to choose that line of work, they are there of their own volition.
The blame can't be entirely laid at the feet of consumers. It makes no more sense to blame men on DU for every bad anecdote in the porn industry as it is to blame families watching TV's in the midwest for the deaths caused by the coal industry.
Here's what I would find compelling: an interview with an actual porn veteran who explains why it was a negative experience and why she chose (not "was forced into" but "chose" that line of work.
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)Search for the names on this site, each will come up with their personal stories: http://donnypauling.net/2010/03/11/is-this-sexy/
The initial choice is probably glamor and easy money.
One really peculiar thing left out of these discussions are gay for pay, such as straight males doing gay scenes for money. That's got to be exploitive, whether you want to say it is or not, if the guy can't get scenes with women or is making more money doing other guys, then he's being exploited, even if he chooses to do it, the choice is forced upon him by his economic expectations and desires within society.
I do think we can blame consumers but I think that in fact the move away from more exploitive porn to less exploitive porn as the internet evolves is proof that consumers don't want exploitive porn. If you watch a Kink.com video and listen to the actors in the videos, they talk about the experience going into it and after the fact, and it is always a good experience. Safe words are pushed hard in that environment and the actors are there to enjoy themselves (just like regular actors).
If a college girl gets walked up to by some recruiter and he goes "hey, we'll give you a thousand bucks to do this one scene, it'll only take thirty minutes" it's a very difficult proposition to pass up on, especially if one naively thinks that their reputation will survive it. We see this actually in the case with some teachers who did those one time gigs only to be fired from their jobs later on in life once their past acting behavior was found out. Would said aspiring teacher had necessarily taken the thousand bucks if there was a living wage? A negative income tax (ie a living wage, guaranteed income, above poverty, etc)?
Doubtful.
HatTrick
(129 posts)Anyone know if the Chomsky article "The war on real Americans" is available anywhere?
Sounds interesting. Might be old information after 8 years, I'm guessing it still has a lot of good information.
When I tried a search, I only found links to buy back issues of Hustler.
See, I just want to read the articles, really
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)Chomsky said he didn't get a transcript of the interview, which is standard. That leaves the impression he might have found it distorted somehow. I don't know if Hustler even asked him about porn. From the intervierview, it appears not.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(108,304 posts)Right Noam.
ancianita
(36,160 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)--that gets your own work stopped at the border is seriously dumb), but she did make a good point about the word obscenity. It refers to things that should now be shown. She said that she was not interested in talking about what should or should not be shown, but about the meaning of what is being shown. What I'm seeing on most of these threads is people trying to talk about the meaning of what is being shown, and constantly getting derailed into the idiotic side show argument about what should or should not be shown.
woolldog
(8,791 posts)can we get rid of alcohol next? It's the devil's nectar.
BainsBane
(53,092 posts)loli phabay
(5,580 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)last1standing
(11,709 posts)He's spot on when he talks about eliminating the conditions that force women into actions they feel are degrading to them. As I stated in another thread, that includes a guaranteed livable wage, guaranteed healthcare, and cultural changes on the expected role of women in society.
I believe he's wrong in equating pornography to child abuse. Women are not girls, they are adults. The reason we outlaw child abuse is children are not considered equal players in society. They are given protection based on their mental, emotional and physical inferiority compared with adults who could exploit them. Women are not inferior. In fact, much of the problems in today's culture stem from the perception of female inferiority that still lingers such as considering women to be prizes for men.
I believe the best path for those who would reduce the number of women (or men) degraded by being forced into pornography would be to eliminate the core issues Chomsky rightly alludes to while promoting the fact that people who do work in pornography are real, hard working, individuals with lives much like anyone else's.
The reason I don't go to strip clubs for my own enjoyment is due to my first experience at one. When I was 19, I crossed the border to Canada to go to my first club. While I was there, the guy next to me was getting table dances from a woman throughout the evening. While the music was going, she focused entirely on her client, but between songs she would immediately turn to me and talk about college, her kids, how she was planning her future and how difficult it was, etc... That experience provided me a real insight on the reality of stripping. She was an actor playing a part. As soon as she wasn't getting paid, she stopped her performance. On the other hand, that acting job was allowing her to raise her children and get through school. Taking that away from her with no other form of decent income waiting would be far more cruel and degrading than letting her continue to strip.
While that evening destroyed the naïve illusion of desirability that much of stripping is premised on (at least for me), I would never try to ban it or any other type of sex work as these are the choices that people make based on their options (obviously exempting sex slavery which is already illegal and should be aggressively prosecuted). Instead, I support increasing the available options so that no one is forced into work they despise just to survive.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)If it's between consenting adults, it's none of my business and none of your's.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It's hard to see how a feminist could subscribe to this view.
And yet... it's hard to avoid concluding that this is some people's view.
CorrectOfCenter
(101 posts)Sorry for being so crass, but I don't take kindly to moral superiority.