Never has a smilie been so richly deserved.

Because it actually lays bare your REAL objection to porn.

I am cleaning coffee off of my monitor after reading this one.

really? Please tell me you forgot the "winking smiley face" thingy or any other smilie that would indicate that you are just kidding.

with real breathing, living, believing faith better than Happy Holidays.

I loves me some sunshine.

Guess I should go back and add a sarcasm thingies.

But keep trying..

You said it sister!

for the fellas who are looking for women, but are unable to get laid.

so Ricky and Lucy will finally have the right to sleep in the same bed together.

as in WTF are you talking about ... not following this analogy.

Ricky and Lucy had separate twin beds.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043208/trivia
Although they slept in twin beds throughout the entire run of the series, during the first two seasons of the show, 1951-1953, Ricky and Lucy slept in twin beds that were pushed together in the same box spring. Once little Ricky was born CBS suggested that the beds be pushed apart to diminish the impact of the suggested sexual history of Lucy and Ricky. The only time we see the Ricardo's in two bed pushed together again is when they first move to the bigger apartment in the Mertz building, however, subsequently after that the beds are pushed apart again.

I don't dare say 'he' or 'she'.. cause that would start another week long debate about which gender is a 'cover stealer'.

porn pushed the beds together ... ?

Porn, and more specifically the technology that makes it ubiquitous, helps to set the boundaries of acceptable verisimilitude. It does it by pushing the envelope. Just like any other artistic medium, sometimes it tells us a good deal more than we want to know and more importantly, it generally focuses too much on a thin sliver of the human experience to the detriment of quality.

In antiquity graphic depictions of sexual activity using the most cutting edge technology of the time were just images of what people did. Nobody's doing anything in porn that people haven't been doing for thousands of years. Even rape porn. Remember, for most of human history rape was a weapon of war, and in our earliest history it was probably instrumental in our survival as a species. The word "rape" only dates back to the late thirteenth century. And the word pornography appeared not long after the first photograph.

To say that "porn pushed the beds together" is a significant oversimplification of a cultural trend toward verisimilitude in media. I wonder if future generations will look back on the internet as the Gutenberg bible of sex.

If you can't have a civil discussion, put me on ignore.

You are not my Daddy and You don't pay my bills.

how about You put ME on Ignore.

what part of Peace Out and Deuces did you not understand?

as for not enjoying Rape Porn ... why should I take you at your word?

Internet Message Board and all that.

You sure Argue hard enough for it. Why is that?

1A? DON'T REGULATE THE PORN INDUSTRY ? DON'T REGULATE ANY CORPORATION, ANY BUSINESS, ANY INDUSTRY ?
THEY ALL HAVE THEIR 1A RIGHTS. PROTECT THEM ALL.

don't answer. consider the questions to be rhetorical because you and I are done here.

You asked a question and I answered it. I took time to answer said question in a courteous dignified manner. You chose instead to respond in as petulant and juvenile manner as possible without getting in trouble for it, probably because I told you a bunch of stuff you didn't already know.

Most people in the civilized world don't follow a thinly veiled accusation with an offering of "peace" if they really mean it.

I guess it's better for you to beat a hasty retreat than to engage in a meaningful discussion if you're going to have that attitude. Unless you have something of substance to add?

At Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:02 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

oh, really. big bad old white man telling me what to do? really? laughable.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4120070

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Accusing a poster of enjoying rape porn after they stated on numerous threads that hey dont is tantamount o calling poster a liar. Constant attacks seem the norm for this poster.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:13 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Not worth hiding. People ought to stay out of these threads if they don't like arguing and hot tempers.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I know Tuesday Afternoon, and she is an honest woman. There is no reason to hide her post. Let it stand.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

DU jury systems sucks, no?

I just think that that sort of childish, accusatory hissy fit aimed at somebody that was nothing but polite is ridiculous.

That post should not have been hidden. I recall on DU two that people were advised to "grow a skin". Not bad advice.

Another woman driven to exclamations because of "daddy issues".

Plenty of men are driven to the same by 'mommy issues'.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert
Mail Message
At Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:57 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

yep
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4119995

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS:

Lying about what someone has said and accusing them of enjoying 'rape porn' when nothing of the sort was claimed, is hurtful, rude and OTT. I'm so sick of seeing this double-standard. And I'm female.

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Dec 2, 2013, 12:17 PM, and voted 5-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I agree, over-the-top and detrimental to discussion.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: I have to agree that accusing another DUer of enjoying 'rape porn' is unacceptable.

Thank you.

I hope DU juries hide them each time and that if those who do this continue, they are shut out of DU discussions per the new policies in place.

but I don't hold it against Tuesday so I didn't alert on it. It's a hot button issue and the OP is little more than self aggrandizing flamebait. If any post should be hidden it should be the OP.

I would be nice to have an intelligent discussion about stuff like this though. I get a little tired of running down links and being nice to people only to be treated like trampoline for somebody elses ego.

Imo, when you have to accuse someone of the most heinous thing possible, it's hard to believe there's any willingness to discuss anything but your own pov. Yes, I would love to see examples of how we can all improve things for people who do not willingly engage in pornography, including those trapped in it d/t their economic situation, sex-trafficking, etc., and how to realistically help through diligent reporting, education and opportunity, and working with survivors of any such crime.

This blanket condemnation of anyone who chooses to watch legal porn that includes consenting adults is slut-shaming of both sexes, though the OP is trying to make it against males only. jmho.

and those working in that industry deserve to be treated fairly. Generally speaking, workers secure rights through unions, but it seems that porn has been so stigmatized by both the right and the left that nothing can be done. Why aren't porn actors members of SAG? Is it even possible for them to join? Porn is a multi billion dollar industry with thousands of workers and a union won't touch them?

Given the attitude displayed here you can't blame the treatment of porn workers all on the political right or the porn industry.

and yes, they absolutely should have some sort of union.

I think the producers of this legal porn have a responsibility to adhere to safeguards already in place .... I remember how glad I was to hear it when mandatory STD testing was introduced. That said, I really don't know much about the porn industry at all, or how being a member of SAG would affect the making of it. Amateur porn is a whole different story, and probably impossible to regulate, which is why I said that diligent reporting when one sees something illegal should be something everyone is willing to do. Working together, rather than heaping scorn and insults on anyone disagreeing with the idea that 'all porn is bad and those who watch it are desperate perverts' isn't helping anyone but the morally righteous.

but unless the general public can be comfortable with saying, "I was looking at porn and saw this..." it ain't gonna happen. For all the caterwauling about the cultural damage of porn does nobody realize that stigmatizing something that has been around for thousands of years and will never go away is the best way to close the door to not only the abuse of those in the industry but any possibility of developing it into something culturally useful?

This, I think, is the reason: Porn, like Harlequin Romance novels, Chic Flicks, Jock Rock, Lad Rags, and most of the blogs on the internet are cultural kitsch. There is kitsch for every niche market out there and more are no doubt being made every day. Hell, even high culture can become kitsch if it is consumed by people who do so just to be able to say they have class.

And they never showed the bedroom on The Honeymooners

chooses "in dreams." When asked why he says "because you meet a better class of people."

My research continues.

From their first day of puberty to their final day on their death bed, they'll be looking for porn at some point in their lives. What they truly prefer has no bearing on what is available to them at, ahem, hand. Pardon the pun.

but that is certainly on my bucket list

yet the obsessive, redundant baiting seems to continue in General Discussion.

and 10% of men lie.

a ridiculous, repetitive and pointless argument on an internet message board.

Most people would prefer the meaningful philosophical conversation. And many of us have room in our lives for both.

But, if we are honest, the ridiculous, repetitive and pointless message board arguments do seem to hold their own strange appeal, particularly at 1 am when there's nothing better to do.

when they suggest porn isn't perfection itself.

or does it?

I'm going to have to change my avatar.

But she has been sick for the past year (maybe longer, can't remember how long it's been this bad) and we haven't had any physical contact because of that. I'm not the type to cheat so when I need a release I use pornography, either visual or literature, to assist in the process. Sex is nice but isn't always there.

with guys who like porn.

Obviously lots of men (and lots of women) love sex.

And both like to watch porn as well. And it's always interesting what you can learn from porn that you can bring into your personal life to enjoy and have fun with.

Sometimes you can really learn something from people who do this as a living. It's not like ~real~ sex education is going to happen in school. Parents aren't going to teach it either because, well, ew for most people. It's all trial and error. And that just doesn't fly in most other parts of life, does it?

http://www.alternet.org/story/154266/why_porn_can_be_good_for_you_(and_society)

with multiple female partners.

Curious, the effect of a plural pronoun on a close reading of your post.

Like someone just pointed out, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I try not to say "better" since I don't want to come across as ranking partners.

But I wondered about starting a thread where we actually talk about how bad sex is when the male partner has a glazed, distant look in his eyes because he's participating in some phantom script to which he's been conditioned by boring, repetitive, non-imaginative pornography.

It's great to be with a man who's actually present, physically and emotionally, and enjoys and attends to women's real bodies and souls, and isn't in some masturbatory trance.

I've definitely noticed that guys who aren't into porn, paradoxically (considering all of the erection obsession), have much higher sex drives and are much more "virile" in the traditional sense, well into their later decades. Because they're not hooked on cartoonish notions of female bodies and cartoonish, compulsively conditioned behaviors, they get much more easily aroused by actual living, breathing women.

There could be some self-selection here. Perhaps it's the guys who are terrified about losing their own virility who get hooked on porn. Two men I know who are extremely virile (like 20 year olds, except they've learned how to control it) told me that they stopped using it years ago because it felt gross and all-consuming. And these guys have very active sex lives, in part because they're not using that crap. Women sense it. And they're realllllly into women. There's an electricity about them. They're not in a trance.

I guess I could be more threatened that a male partner is living in "meatspace" and more sexually aware of the women around him (and potentially more attracted to them) because he's not living in some pathetic fantasy world where he orgasms to repetitive videos degrading women, but it's a trade-off I'll take,.

It doesn't matter how modelish you look and how much Victoria's Secret lingerie you have or how many porn scripts you learn (and the ways you have to self-medicate to do it), if your partner is addicted to porn you will never, ever be enough. That's because from the outset, their fantasy is more important to them than an authentic connection with your body. They need their next transgressive fix. The orgasmic moment for them is built on your degradation. I'm not talking about consensual BDSM. That'd be too honest, too emotionally present and accountable. Too non-masturbatory. No, they need to think they're (insert porn term) to that (insert degrading term for female). It precludes emotional presence.

It's a lot of bad things, but most of all, it's BORING.

The largest demographic using pornography is heterosexual males. And as a primarily "straight" woman I speak of my experience with that demographic.

However, if you're interested in this, you could check out John Stoltenberg's critiques of pornography and gay pornography in particular. He's a gay male feminist who's written vividly about the possibilities of sexuality without the "sexual ethic" (his term) of degradation. _Refusing to be a Man_ is one of his most famous works.

Also, how do you know whether they're watching porn that degrades women (and there's a fair bit of it floating round) or stuff that doesn't?

We don't stop being concerned about racism because there are gray areas where they might not be intent to harm but a climate of harm continues.

We don't stop talking about potential harms of alcohol because there are gray areas between occasional heavy drinking and a slide into addiction.

I've never known a man who uses a steady diet of "erotica." I guess that would include nudes and other aesthetic compositions that are intended to stimulate a sensual and perhaps sexual response. Perhaps they are out there.

The guys I've known who've written off pornography experience all pornography--where at best you only have objectification of humans--as a type of crack cocaine, where you can't just "use a little." They've told me it's a slippery slope (and let's hope the the beavis and butthead humorists can leave that alone). The whole point of how the industries (mainstream and the outright criminal ones) get guys hooked is by conditioning them to want increasing levels of transgression of the target, usually female.

So I've known guys who use porn (and it's all been degrading--I've seen it, or else I know because of the way they speak to me once they're in their trance) and those who don't, and I notice an INTENSE difference in their sexualities. What I really notice is the impotence of the ones who are addicted to porn and the serious (Holy Mother of God!) virility of the ones who don't use it. Maybe that's what guys were like before the onslaught of all of the porn. You know, the millienia when men had erections (with partners or privately) without having to use external media, except for the uber wealthy who had access to the rare scroll or vase or Mallus Malleficarum.

Your point about porn (in the sense that I think you are talking about it) being boring is right on, esp. when you explore what women and men consider eroticism. It isn't a question of using sexually suggestive material v. none at all. There is a difference. Which is why some movie scenes that don't even contain nudity (but lots that do) can be enormous turn-ons for some women. Possibly the most erotic movie I ever saw was "Three Days of the Condor." The electricity in the lovemaking scenes with Redford and Dunaway was stunning. Ditto Redford and Streep in "Out of Africa." I think women and men coming together over what they find sexually stimulating is a miraculously wonderful and exciting experience. The men who know this are the best lovers, by FAR, IMO...

but you're right. And there really is legal backup for regulating pornography (not obscenity) and protecting erotic art. There were so many debates about this in the 80s and some sound legal arguments in the late 80s about how to amend the proposed Minneapolis legislation to be less broad.

I felt then and do now that had MacKinnon/Dworkin backed down a bit and allowed the three-pronged intellectual/artistic/political value as determined by a reasonable person argument to be built into the legislation, it might have been upheld. And the legislation was for civil remedies anyway.

Hitting the pornographers in their pocketbooks was a wise approach and the intent of the law, but they allowed ideological purity to trump the possible. I can't imagine how many adolescents' sexualities wouldn't have been twisted by this hateful gonzo pornography had this legislation been in effect before the advent of global internet usage. If the profit motive had been tamed a bit, perhaps they wouldn't have been so brazen. Don't know if it would have saved lives in countries without the regulations, but it might have made our pornographers more aggressive in shaming those places that could make gonzo without restraint.

I am in a kind of "arrested development" sexuality in men that somehow keeps them from a better enjoyment in sex with women. It starts with respecting intelligent, passionate women. Possibly it is a fear that women's sexuality is overwhelmingly strong and thus threatening to some men. And that is sad.

I think one of the reasons a lot of women (like me) love George Clooney is that he projects (as Redford did before him) a delicious love of smart, articulate and sexually/emotionally giving women. The whole package, as it were. Men who find such women are happier and lead more fulfilling lives and I for one cannot imagine my life without them. The sad, sad "left behinds" get my pity more than my scorn.

I had no previous expectations of where you stand on regulating pornography. I very much believe it should be regulated, but agree with your deeper analysis of the threat of intelligent, passionate women and the appeal of men who are strong and passionate enough to seek them out rather than attempt to degrade them or render them invisible. I'd put Daniel Craig in that category too. He actually married a woman his own age. Shocking.

I don't know about you, but when he is standing out in the cold in front of her front door and she rebuffs him, is so moving. The pain in his eyes...

Pornography is clearly erotic for many people, but after a while to me it's repetitive, formulaic and boring. It's seldom seems erotic and is increasingly relying on 'kink' or shock porn, rather than the sensual and erotic. I stopped watching porn a while back.

Imaginative Colors, Textures, fabrics, sounds, good camera work, losing the objectification in both hetero and homosexual porn, sensual and well written story lines make the difference. I like the word erotica, but I don't think it will catch on.

The porn industry itself is as corrupt as Wall Street, reminds me of the sexual equivalent of Wallmart

about a connection between mystery and suspense movies and eroticism, or a propensity for viewers to have sex more often. It was a long time ago so I don't remember the details.

Or football

Or drinking

And you have nearly the same thing.

A vice is a vice. Some people will handle it better than others. The majority of people do it right.

Hell, you could probably change the word to guns and with a little modification have the same thing.

Women who use devices that look like Telefunken U47's or tiny chrome-plated machines that looks like a magical pigs with marital aids stuck all over it or with stud-covered plastic apparatuses become drooling, unresponsive, entranced robot who cannot appreciate a real penis and are unable to emotionally connect with men.

I find women that use vibrators to be unable to begin sexually aroused with real men because they are so used to the perfect mechanical phallus that never tires or softens. Such women appear to be in a trance, staring off into the distance dully and are unable to even become lubricated enough to perform with their chosen partners. It is really sad and precludes emotional presence.

But most of all, it's BORING.