from recent pontiffs.

and the way he is encouraging Bishops to take a pastoral approach, rather than a condemning approach, on social issues.

Not two weeks ago you had a Catholic bishop who performed a gay marriage "exorcism" on the entire state of Illinois. Furthermore the new pope has already backed off many of his previous statements. I see no reason why the haters aren't going to continue to channel Catholicism to promote their hateful agenda.

he will change it but you are asking an institution older than any other to go left when they have gone right forever. I have faith that things are going to change but it won't be easy. Nor fast. Every step is a step forward when he talks like this. And the American church has always gone its own way on many things.

I mean, you talk about this as if he was a reformer, he is not, and actually emphasized that.

I mean it's unfortunate...but it has to be the conservatives of the church that reform the church. It draws too much backlash and reversal when the reformist activist wing of the church that pushes reform and refocus away from social issues and towards economic issues.

Also, it's worth noting...he's a Jesuit...as an order, they're about as liberal as you can get within the church. He went further, to name himself after a Saint that effectively went to war against the financial corruption of the hierarchy of the church. Some statements need to be understood as cover and lip-service. Every major reformer of the church since Aquinas and Francis of Assisi has identified themselves as conservative or traditional as a hedge against accusations of heresy and illegitimacy. Restoration goes over better than reform...I'm not reforming the church, I'm restoring traditional values of emphasis on poverty and justice.

monoliths don't turn on a dime. He is a conservative but unlike any other I can think of he is saying things that need saying. cutting him into confetti benefits the rock ribbed dorks that don't want what he's saying to win. Don't patronize me.

The church will change when people start voting with their feet. As long as the the money keeps rolling in they have no incentive to change and plenty of incentive not to do so. Susan G. Komen is an excellent example.

liberals who do vote with their feet, often against the interests of the poor. The bigotry against religious organizations, that too has a long history with plenty of dead 'martyrs' to show just how lethal bigotry of any kind can be.

We should be careful when we accuse others of bigotry that we first look in the mirror.

Jesus, the man who founded the Catholic Church pointed out that bigotry when he demanded that those intending to 'punish' a woman for her behavior, take a look at their own before they took on the role of arbiters or right and wrong.

This pope has reminded members of HIS church, he is not the ruler of any country, only of a church where members are voluntary and include, as he pointed out, all kinds of human beings, he reminded the hypocrites who 'obsess' over the behavior of others, to look at their own behavior.

And as the OP pointed out, that was a direct hit on the Palins and Santorums and the rest of the Right Wing who use these issues to WIN elections in this country.

From the comments of some people here, I've come to the conclusion that they prefer things stay the way they were and that the pope remain silent about the hypocrisy of Republican Catholics.

As opposed to alleged bigotry against a multi-billion $ multi-national conglomerate that already holds the position of Christian religious privilege in this country. If pointing out the former makes me intolerant to the latter, then feel free to paint me with that brush. Obsessing over the behavior of others is what the church is famous for and seems to do best. At best you have a pot/kettle situation that is in no way going to affect what the sweater vest man and others are doing.

The case for Christian martyrs happened over a very short period of Roman history, if at all, and had more to do with the political oppression the Romans were famous for rather than religious persecution. It's been promoted to excess by the church for centuries, often completely fabricated, and even if you believe all of it pales in comparison to those 'martyred', tortured, banished, and otherwise oppressed by the church itself when it found itself in a position of superiority. So I'm not sure you really want to go there. As far as I'm concerned, nobody gets a pass for bigotry by hiding behind a veil of religion. Tolerance does not require one to tolerate intolerance.

planet. It is an ugly thing to see someone so wrapped up in hatred that they are unable to think rationally or see anything good about the object of their hatred.

I remember not so long ago, just one example of what religious bigotry is, a Bishop and some nuns being slaughtered during Reagans secret wars in Central and South America. No doubt Pope Francis is aware of the causes of that kind of deadly hatred and perhaps why he aimed his latest remarks at 'trickle down' economics.

And I've watched the deadly bigotry against all Muslims right here in this country which has caused the deaths and torture of over one million innocent human beings.

Please do not attempt to claim that religious bigotry doesn't exist today. That is an incredible statement that has no relation to the reality of the world we live in, right here in the US.

I never claimed religious bigotry doesn't exist. I'm saying defending bigotry by alleging those who call it out are bigots holds water about like a sieve. It doesn't matter if religious bigotry exists or not. And where do you think the anti-Muslim bigotry in which you speak is coming from? Some Christian pastors preach it directly from the pulpit and there's an entire network of religious right organizations that are funding it, including prominent Catholics. Both protestant and Catholic churches have very little to say about that. I find it amazing you'd even mention it.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/religion/report/2011/08/26/10165/fear-inc/

pope for what he is trying to do. Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and the rest of the fundy ditto heads who prefer that the pope continue the status quo they used to be able to use to continue to attack Women and Gays and Muslims and everyone else they hate.

This pope has shamed them and they are reacting like the miserable haters they are.

Meanwhile the Catholic church continues to deny women access to health care and leadership positions, along with shaming them into a position of subservience. Homosexuals are shamed as sinners and denied basic human rights all with the help of the Catholic church, yet you claim the pope has shamed anyone for the exact same behavior the church and even he himself itself happily participates.

So where was the pope when a Catholic bishop held a gay marriage exorcism for the entire state of Illinois? Did he even have one word to say about it? You do realize this same bishop was quoting the very same guy you are defending when he did it?

Do you really think it's bigotry to point these things out? Seriously?

No one can or does shame anyone into anything. If someone feels shame, it is because they choose to or because they have done something to be ashamed of.

I detest the way women are being used for political purposes, this is a perfect example of it. The strongest women I know and the LEAST likely to be shamed by anyone, are Catholic Democratic Women. So stop making stuff up, clearly you don't have a clue about women or about women who are members of the Catholic Church.

People are tired of women being used finally and this pope made it perfectly clear, and THIS WOMAN agrees with him, stop the obsession with women and start doing something worthwhile IF you are claiming to be a Catholic. Good for him.

n/t

If you feel unable to answer it for some reason, that is up to you.

I supported Obama despite not agreeing with him on several issues because on others, such as SS and Mandated Ins and other issues that related to the poor and less fortunate, he was streets ahead of the other choice we had.

I support what this Pope is doing for many of the same reasons. As Bernie Sanders said, he always says it so well, the Pope is to be commended for the positions he is taking especially wrt 'trickle down economics' even though we don't agree with him on other issues, we should not allow that to stop us from aprreciating the good he is doing'.

So, if you voted for Obama while he denied equal rights to Gays, then you are not in a position to attack anyone who is supporting this pope's efforts right now.

Diversion noted btw.

Double standards are everywhere.

He IS a conservative. And he's challenging very important people and groups and moving the church towards a MUCH better position on really, really important issues that touch billions of people.

He is a bigot when it comes to LGBT unlike most democratic politicians but like all republicans - but a non-bigot would never ever become pope in today's catholic church.
He is NOT in the pocket of big business unlike many democratic politicians and unlike all republicans - that is something that is widely accepted in today's catholic church and thus no hindrance to becoming pope.

Be thankful for the change he IS trying to bring about against most of the powers that be.
LGBT are loosing out again and the anger is justified and understandable.
But billions of poor people may actually, just for once, win a tiny bit.

If that alone isn't a reason to view Francis in an overall positive light I don't know what would ever be sufficient.

Really? That's news to all of us. Can you name one?

He never said the abortion issue was not important to the Church. He said it was not the only issue. He chastised the church for spending so much effort on abortion and not enough on the poor and economic issues. Just as he did last week, he put economic injustice on an equal footing with abortion.

I never got anything different from his remarks then and the CC is not changing it's position on abortion anytime soon. Never was.

On one day he says the church is spending too much time on abortion. The next day he makes it a point to spend time talking about abortion. But this was in no way walking back his earlier statements.

However, he didn't write 250+ pages on abortion.

Is the guy who headed up the Ad Hoc Committee on the Defense of Marriage.

The Church ain't gonna change, no matter what kind of car Pope Photo-Op drives.

Sid

Did Jesus teach that homosexual sex is sinful and that homosexual marriage is from Satan?

Did Jesus teach that women should be subordinate and not control their own reproductive health?

Just curious if you know which of the pope's beliefs are based on the teachings of Jesus, and which are wrong. Also, would you be the final decider on whether something is a teaching of Jesus?

St. Paul's misogyny and claim to celibacy is one of the main facets that has defined the Church from its inception. Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, but Paul did. Paul elevated men above women and stated that women should refrain from speaking in church. He dictated codes of modesty and dress to assign gender roles, i.e., long hair for women, short hair for men. If you want to read him literally, he said the only reason that a man should marry was, not for love or companionship, but for sex. It is better to marry than to burn. No writings have ever surfaced of either Paul or Jesus mentioning abortion, but Paul was sexist, homophobic and sexually repressed. His interpretation of Christianity has been the Church's for centuries, especially in relation to women and sexual matters.

Or so it is believed by most Christians.

After all, he said things like this too:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

Seems like there's just arbitrary retrofitting of the dogma going on to declare "Well, that is just Paul, he can be completely disregarded on this and that."

of Jesus." Paul seemed to go from teaching what Jesus taught, that there should be adherence to the Law, to that the Law no longer applied and was now replaced with a New Covenant. He went from teaching about the religion of Jesus to a religion about Jesus. But, like you said, there was doubtlessly a lot of adaptations and modifications over the decades by the legend makers to shine and buff things up.

i think it is in matthew 16. yes paul corrupted the teaching attributed to christ

abortions and birth control has been practiced from the egyptians to the present day. there is no doubt it was practiced in that part of the world at that time.

He's and Opus Dei. And I think Thomas is too.

I hadn't heard that yet. I googled and wasn't able to find that but did find that he belongs to a similar fundamentalist group within the RC faith... http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/one-pope-francis-allegiances-might-tell-us-something-about-churchs-future

I thought they were both Opus Dei but I may have assumed that when I heard they belonged to a ultra conservative sect.

I'm not comfortable with those two on the Court. They are both just so far to the right it's scary. And it's the wayout religious kind of stuff that is really more scary than the teaparty people.

And I do think they are Opus Dei... from your post I thought you meant that the new Pope was Opus Dei and that would be frightening to me.

I thought I read about that somewhere.

I kind of follow stuff on Opus Dei just because I think they are interesting.

Sure, technically he's in charge, but that doesn't necessarily mean his foot soldiers are going to fall in line.

Welcome to DU.

-p

Don't be pointing out the obvious with Pope Francis!

Hater!!!111111111ELEVENS

Is the pope still wrong on same-sex marriage, birth control, and a host of other social issues? Yep.

Does that mean we should throw nothing but anger towards him? Nope.

The pope's efforts to steer Catholics towards what Jesus supposedly said about money is a good thing, and deserves praise. That doesn't make it impossible to criticize the pope in other areas.

They're just not going to talk about it as much.

It'll be a kindler, gentler form of bigotry and homophobia.

As a liberal, and supporter of women's and LGBT rights, I don't think that's good enough.

Sid

do not recall you joining those of us who condemned that stance in a Democrat and continued to apply pressure to change his mind?? Thankfully, with enough people refusing to support him as a politician who ran as a liberal democrat, he eventually did change his mind.

The Church has changed its standing on issues in the past, some of them reflections of the times, when more information became available and when more of their members became educated.

This pope said nothing about changing the church's position right now, he does not have the power to do that even if he wanted to.

What his words have done to enlighten some of the most ignorant Right Wing members of his church, that they have ZERO right to condemn and obsess over other people's lives. And that is a beginning, as there have been beginnings in the past.

What I found incredible was that a US Democrat who had reached the age of 50 still believed that Gays should not have equal rights. The pope is a religions leader. There is a huge difference and his words on this are devastating to the hard core bigots, and some of those bigots are religious bigots. All of them have been dealt a huge blow.

a "machination of the Father of Lies", but your feeble attempt at equivalence is noted.

I, as a liberal, think the Catholic Church, and this Pope, are living in the Dark Ages with regard to social issues. Women shouldn't be marginalized and should be free to make their own reproductive decisions. And LGBT individuals should enjoy full and equal human rights.

You're not really under the impression that Francis is going to change those practices, are you? If the Catholic Church doesn't change, then it deserves to whither and die.

But that won't happen either, as long as alleged progressives keep making excuses for the Church's homophobia, misogyny and bigotry.

Sid

That was the position you made excuses for. Denying Gays the same civil rights as any other American citizen. No Liberal agreed with him on this issue. He was NOT burdened with being the leader of a 2 thousand year old Religious organization, he was a Democrat.

I'm glad those who refused to accept that position prevailed and he eventually evolved on the issue. I certainly never defended it, as a Liberal.

You've answered my question. Thank you.

especially since you are here claiming this is a huge issue for you.

Sorry to bring up inconvenient facts.

But the Pope drives a Renault!

Sid

He has not said a single thing about economic issues that was not said more extensively by Benedict. He has not done a single thing to protect the children or to punish their abusers, nothing. He opposes my family's existence, which is for you something to laugh about. This amoral Francis says adoption by gay parents is child abuse, and he lives across the Vatican hall from Cardinal Law. His hypocrisy and pretense that birth control and equal standing under the law are not economic issues that create, cause and extend poverty is perhaps the worst of all.

And it's working pretty well for them.

by his comments.

Without changing policies and doctrine, it's only so much PR.

Sid

He's saying what has to be said from a position that most people would see as moral authority. He is also driving conservatives crazy and that is a good thing.

There's a long and honorable tradition of progressive Catholicism on economic issues. That's been obscured by the culture warriors emphasis on birth control, abortion and gay rights, but I'm happy to see that the pope is bringing it all back to the fore.

Sometimes I think the vehemence against this man by a loud and vocal minority here is fear that he might actually succeed in reforming an institution that they hate.

that defines "natural," and it thus requires a buttload of perspicacity to escape

http://historyversusthedavincicode.com/

...is my own experience. My life is full of people who feel their radical Right views are built on a solid Catholic base.
What the pope has been saying and doing lately has felt to them like a small but very worrying little earthquake right in that foundation.
He's God's official spokesman to these folks and until very recently they thought that spokesman had endorsed Glen Beck's worldview.
Significant.

I can assure you my fear isn't that he'll reform it at all. My fear is that he'll be a Catholic, which means being a bigot and pushing policies that hurt and kill many as Catholic doctrine officially instructs.

My fear is that the majority of DU is willing to engage in rampant cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty, and, who knows, maybe some demonization of the bothersome minority on here, all to affirm values many hold based on an irrational worldview, that being religion. After all, they're the ones cheering on a misogynist homophobe because he says things that all of us on here already say on economic justice. I can't really fathom another bigot whose bigotry wouldn't totally discredit them on other issues. But there is religious privilege there for you.

The US is very religious, DU is very religious, for a progressive site, and many of the religious don't even recognize their privilege, much less the cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty they must engage in daily.

Which is why religion poisons everything, even religious progressives.

I've known many Catholic liberals, even priests and nuns, whose faith guided their actions--some of them even to the point of being targeted and killed for standing up for the poor. My mother was a religious Catholic and as kind a person as you would ever want to know.

You may have good reasons for hating the church. I'm no great fan of the Catholic hierarchy myself, but telling people like this that they are somehow deluded is a bit too much of a stretch of arrogance for me.

Live and let live. My hope is that the Catholic Church will learn to do the same.

It's that same faith that makes the pope think that the devil is behind gay marriage bills as it is that makes him think god wants him to help the poor.

I don't doubt that very nice and progressive people can be religious, that's the sad part. Faith allows otherwise nice and progressive people to directly or indirectly support terrible conservative policies. It also is not a good argument for progressive policies.

Faith is never a good way to think about anything. As a form thinking, it will poison every sort of argument, policy or reasoning that it is the foundation for. Most religion relies on faith. Hence why it poisons everything. A person with faith may agree with me on a policy, but the why is very different.

I support legalizing pot, but not for the same reasons a libertarian would, and libertarian ideology is still flawed, even if it sometimes causes their followers to agree with progressive policies.

that don't square with his religion.

Sometimes a people are poor for economic reason that are not solely the property of politicians.
What if a politician stated that he could improve the plight of a neighborhood by simply reducing the amount of
people a family needs to feed.

Would the Pope agree and how would he suggest going about making that happen?


Tikki

is gentle and kind, at least in manner if not his strict message.

So I think his humble approach to ministering grates on the sensibilities of conservative Catholics who would like to see priests speak up in favor of beating up minorities and apostates, and they did during the Inquisition and in even more recent times.

opposition to marriage equality. To say that Catholic politicians on both sides won't use his quotes, perceived positions, to make talking points is foolish. Its like claiming the Bible has a consistent message.

They were awesome.

The Vatican says Pope Francis supports the Holy See's crackdown on the largest umbrella group of U.S. nuns, who were faulted for focusing too much on social justice instead of issues such as abortion.

American sisters had expressed hope that Francis, a Jesuit whose emphasis on the poor mirrored their social outreach, would take a different approach than his predecessor.

The Vatican last year imposed a reform of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious after determining the sisters took positions undermining Catholic teaching on the priesthood and homosexuality while promoting "radical feminist themes."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pope-francis-supports-crackdown-on-us-nuns-group/

Logic doesn't matter. Reason doesn't matter. So congratulations are called for when change comes to this bunch.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

Clearly, not everyone shares Francis’ religion, and many of us have deep differences with a number of positions taken by the Catholic Church. Nonetheless, we can all, I think, share his commitment to economic justice and learn from his wise assessment of how modern civilization, in its relentless pursuit of profit and its dependence on “the market” to make final valuations of what is good, has lost touch with the ethical imperatives that should guide our society.

of what the pope is doing and is capable of seeing the good without, ironically what the pope stated, obsessing over the two issues the Right Wing has used as a bludgeon over Democratic Catholics and yet, acknowledging the work that needs to be done.

I admire this new pope and don't think his views on marriage equality and reproductive choice matters all that much.

But time will tell.

Even though I agree with him on economics, he's still a bigot and has done nothing to address the rape scandal.

Yeah, who gives a shit about all the gay people who are, and will be prosecuted because of this arsehole's teachings.
Who gives a fuck about countless HIV infections due to RCC position on condom use.
Never mind women who will die from complications of illegal abortions, or from giving birth too many times, or simply because RCC hospitals will not save woman's life if it will harm the foetus.

It's just doesn't "matters all that much"!

One man won't cause all of that.

The Catholic church has been opposed to those things for years and we're still making progress.

The church is losing the argument on those fronts and with more people self-identifying as agnostics and atheists, no, it doesn't matter all that much.

You know it as well as I do.

As to the "preaching to the choir", sorry buddy but my admiration reserved for those who stand for Universal Human Rights, not homophobic forced-birthers.

I mean, really, his view on equality for women and gays doesn't matter all that much? Glad you don't have to worry about them, but wow, that's some selfish thinking.

left leaning but are not ideologues about it - I bet you will find that most of them (at least every single one I have talked to without exception) are feeling pretty good about this new Pope. Those of us who want to build a progressive majority whether they come from the 90%+ Americans who believe in God or from the minority that does not - whether they are gay or straight. male or female - we recognize that every step forward is a step of progress. You're just not going to find many people across the progressive spectrum of whatever sex or orientation who do not see this as a very positive development. Conversely the rightwing is plagued with exploding heads. There is a reason why they are upset.

Words are dirt cheap, actions are all that matter, and his actions are nothing more than bullshit PR.

the change to the situation where we are today where the majority support marriage equality and are pro-choice - although the majority do also have moral reservations about abortion - This change did not come in one move. It started with the gradual liberalizing of attitudes - at first simply making it not a crime - then making it illegitimate to discriminate - It took a long time for the general American public and the mainstream of at least the Democratic Party to get to where it is today. It certainly didn't start out with a campaign for marriage equality and abortion on demand. The original campaign was simply "don't arrest us" "don't beat us up" Any move forward is progress. It is clear that most ordinary gay people and women recognize that.

Bigot had more than enough time to 'evolve'. His religion is not an excuse for bigotry.

I have a fairly high opinion about Quakers, Reformed Jews, and Muslims for Progressive Values. They are every bit as religious as your favorite guy, with one huge difference - they support Equal Rights.

P.S. Would be nice if you talk for yourself only instead of pretending to be a spokesperson for 'most ordinary gay people and women'.

suggesting gay people and women are offended by support for Pope Francis They are the ones pretending to be the spokesperson for gay people and women and they are not operating in the real world.

The support for Francis seems like bludgeons being used against us. Your words in fact seem like yet another swipe at LGBT and women as part of the Francis Promotional Event on DU.
Embracing some hate preacher who says my family is from Satan and that women should not control their own healthcare is an offensive thing to do. It shows me that a few muttered words without any significant actions can motivate otherwise intelligent people to follow hate mongering from power craving clerics.
And again, I'm not anyone's spokesman, but I have every right to speak my mind because I am an equal citizen to you, no matter what the cleric says, no matter what status you think you hold. Get used to it. It is no longer going to be acceptable to attack any group of people using any religion as an excuse. Those days are over. Kiss them goodbye.

relative to other Popes, which is a very very low bar. I was responding to the idea that those issues aren't important. The point is, the Pope uses the same flawed reasoning to espouse his economic positions as his bigotry, and that means no real progress has been made. Any ideas based on religion have no reasoning grounding them and are easily rationalized to fit ones actual ideology.

And he does seem to be insisting on it. And not saying as much about the social stuff.

It was more like Pope Francis. If it weren't, I couldn't have survived the south. It was social justice oriented. Priests used to march against the Vietnam war and with Martin Luther King. The domestic church changed with America and the emergence of the religious right. I thank everyday that Pope Francis is trying to bring back the old Catholic conscience.

Catholics were led by Popes whose policies were generally in retreat from Vatican II. Popes John Paul II or Benedict XVI both felt a need to push Catholicism toward protestant evangelism because of the perceived view that the Catholic church was losing ground to more evangelical churches in terms of growing the church through converts.

Pope Francis is substantially different from either predecessor on both economic issues and social issues as well as his evaluation of the direction the Church should take in response to the growth of other Christian churches.

Pope Francis's words may sound similar to you, and they are sometimes not very different in tone from some of Pope John XXIII's most inspired words, but Pope Francis is vastly different from his most recent predecessors and -- from my perspective (I'm an atheist who attends Catholic mass weekly and I'm very familiar religious and non-religious philosophy as I have read the Bible numerous times in both English and in Latin) -- he is a tremendous improvement.

matter one way or another what people on the left think about Pope Francis," (2) "on economic issues he is not saying anything that previous pontiffs have not said," and (3) "Nor has he reversed the church's position on crucial social issues."

For what it is worth, I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

Because religion is inherently irrational, any viewpoint can be rationalized away, and conservatives already are. Not to mention, Pope Bigot still backs his fellow conservative bigots where it counts, so don't worry, he's got their back.

The Pope believes he should help poor people for the same reason he believes the devil is behind marriage equality bills. That's the problem. Such viewpoints can't be reasoned with because it's not based on reason. The Pope is a moral dunce because of this. He shouldn't be celebrated, but his way of thinking should be derided and criticized for what it is. I don't feel particularly like celebrating Dick Cheney because he's for marriage equality now, do you?

Poor and ill and for him to say it is against the teachings of the church to give aid to the poor and ill.

They're such a honey trap for purveyors of the original American sport: Catholic hating. Sure, it gets old to hear the same old tripe trotted out day after day about how the entire church is some sort of secular anti-Christ, this being DU and all, but it is kind of amusing to see people decry the Church's stance on social issues while brushing aside the fact that its economic stance is moving to center-stage. It's amusing because those same people usually DON'T take the position of all-or-nothing, in fact they often make arguments in which the words "dictator," "magic wand," and "pony" are used. It's quite a spectacle to see these people toss political pragmatism to the side in the rush to rip into the Church. It makes one wonder if their issue is really the Church, I should say hierarchy, positions on certain social issues is the problem or the Church itself. When one applies serious principles inconsistently depending upon the entity in question, it's a fair question.

All that being said, it would be nice if some would realize that you can't protect the rights contained in those social issues without money. Perhaps the true pragmatist would make allies that can help everyone protect their rights by pursuing real economic security. It would seem to make more sense than standing on principle in the abstract, while undercutting it in the real world.

This what I would have said if I could have come up with the words.

.

When he makes them really hate him and reverses some way outdated policies, I'll know he has arrived

-Laelth