like the USA and Eritrea.

If so, it might not be so bad.

This indivduals and small businesses. the big guys get away.

It is easier to grab some low to middle class dual citizen's pension than the rich who live abroad.

Read this letter. sent to the USA ways and means
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/patricia_anderson_daddario.pdf

You wouldn't mean to imply this low income person would have their pension "grabbed", would you? How?

Those low income people can avail themselves of the generous $97,500 foreign earned US income tax exemption. Those people pay ZERO US income taxes.

you have to be a legal resident of the country where you're working, and meet certain other requirements. In most cases, the people who qualify for the exclusion are paying income taxes in their country of residence. Also, if you're not a legal resident of a foreign country for a full year, then your exclusion is pro-rated for the time you spent in that country.

The point is, the vast majority are not paying any additional US income tax on top of the taxes they pay in their resident country.

then that income is fully taxable.

In 1st world countries, at least, income tax rates are usually comparable to, or even higher than, US rates. Here in Japan, I am making just enough to squeak by right now, and I got socked with a big Japanese tax bill this year, even though my income was lower than last year.

How big was the US tax bill on your Japanese income? That is the issue here.

Why should there be? My income was well below the exclusion limit, and all my money came from Japanese sources.

by moving to another country, while retaining US citizenship?

.... under the guise of correcting a problem that doesn't exist for the VAST MAJORITY of foreign filers ain't gonna even things out. Quite the opposite. Kinda like the "death tax", eh?

which is what every other country does.

Any human in any country should pay only the applicable taxes to the region that they are a bonafide resident in.

If you are not using Spanish roads, German education, British Social Security, French healthcare, you should not be liable to support any of those systems. Those countries are sane enough to understand that.

If a US person is a signatory on a bank account or is an officer of the corp then the info will be reported.

but that is not going to be a big corporation..they will fire that person first.

as it does not work.

THe video does that shows you how to create a financial FATCA report that a specialize expensive tax account would do.

The audio interview was so much better , with an actual dual citizen, and two lawyeres

Wish you could have heard it when I did.

Click on it and then play it. It's about 21 minutes, total. The FATCA story is the first one up.

When you click on the link in the link, it brings you here:

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/popupaudio.html?clipIds=2417543073

Maybe that will help...

and so did many other alarmed Canadians.
what do you think?

I think some people might be giving up their dual citizenship as a consequence of it, as well.

I am guessing that Canada (the government of) isn't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, to be good "pals" to their southern neighbors. They're interested in this for their own revenue-generating purposes.

so far the IGA is not signed...

Canadians do not just give up....we are fighting this.

and shouldn't be hiding them in foreign bank accounts.

and live for decades in the country where they reside.
They are not tax evaders.

DId you read the whole post.. I don't think so .


Well, if this happens than I can forsee China coming in and taking over the the world banks...The USA just paved the way with FATCA

There is no benefits other than a US passport and filing very expensive tax returns that cost over thousands of dollars A YEAR

Many are now renouncing and relingquishing....One can relinquish if they became a dual deacades ago other wise it cost $450 exit tax plus iling 3 years of tax returns and FBURs reporting what was in all you bank accounts for 6 years.

The renouncements are going sky high now...USA is losing its Ambassadors, small businesses. Americans can not get bank accounts in some countries. now.

Can any of these americans abroad get Obamacare, any other benefirts. what benefits?

will not regret it.

in the thousands and thousands.

The USA is going to be losing all its Ambassadors...do you think they will say kind words about the USA...

But don't be so assured because China will do this to the USA...if FATCA does this to the rest of the world. Soon China will be the most powerful country in the world. and who knows, maybe the world will give up the US dollar as world currency.

Happy baking..


but you never answered me....what benefits do these APs who live abroad for decades or all their life get...can you name these benefits?

I NEVER said I got my information from Beck. I dispise him as much as I dispise Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and Sarah Palin and O'Reilly and most of all Dick Cheney.

Can you show in that thread where I said I got my information from Glen Beck?

The thread may advertise Glen Beck but I am pointing out the Flawed and bad FATCA Bill.

It is like RAW Story advertising stories for NEWS MAX a rightwing news ...YUK..

I am definitely not a GLenn Beck gal but my racist brother in NJ is a big fan and would love to see Hannity as US president. . We have terminated ties. I lived through the civil rights era, and viet nam....I was smart enough to read...my mother said I was weird because I read. I avoided losing money in the bank fail and mortgage fail...I removed my savings out of US stocks, mutual funds and watched everyone else lose their shirt. I saw the writing on the wall. because I read.

I loved OBAMA and love what he is doing for the health care of the people of the USA.

How he started FATCA, which is not thought through very well. ...It will really harm the USA in the long run.

http://www.amazon.ca/FATCA-New-Birth-American-Empire-ebook/dp/B00GVFLO3U/

I read the message....and what he said is true EVERYTHING!!!

PAUL CHAMBRES
Paul Chambres is a European Union Affairs Advisor based principally out of Paris, France. For the past two decades, he has helped North American businesses develop and implement strategies for investing and expanding operations in Europe. After growing up in North Carolina, Paul completed his undergraduate and graduate degrees in the United Kingdom. As a consultant, he worked extensively in Eastern Europe as the region transitioned to free market economies, before shifting focus to Western European markets. Paul is also a husband, father and die-hard conservative. He enjoys writing and blogging and has contributed to major publications in the United Kingdom and United States.

Did you notice at the end of the report; TheBlaze contributor channel supports an open discourse on a range of views. The opinions expressed in this channel are solely those of each individual author.
COMMENTS; Which I agree with except that Obamacare is a disaster...I hope not but FATCA is going to destroy the world and the USA. read the links the commenter writes of.

Nervous InvestorDec. 2, 2013 at 11:50am
Thank God ! At last there is a report (with some understanding of what FATCA is about) on this outrage that is about to be foist on the entire world as extra territorial legislation from the USA. PLEASE go and read the multitude of articles on the isaacbrocksociety.ca blog and at Jaes Jattras’ StopFatca.com for facts on this issue.

If you think that Obamacare has been a disaster then you aint seen nothing yet. FATCA is set to gut the US economy over the coming decade …. it will cause Americans to be more isolated around the world, it will result in fewer tourists visiting the US, it will result in people and business worldwide starting to avoid the US when seeking stuff to buy, intellectual property or even investment. FATCA will cause higher banking and related costs on everyone worldwide including the poorest people in countries like India. Some people in the US are starting to wake up .. the Banking Associations of Florida and Texas realize that if they need to start reporting to other countries about accounts held in the US by citizens of those other countries then …. whoops …. bye bye deposits, sell down wall street, sell out real estate ….. move those investments to somewhere that has a little more respect for the people … some people estimate that foreign investment in the US is somewhere around $25 TRILLION …. what a fire sale that will make …
…

He's at exactly the same level as Glenn Beck, except with a youtube site instead of a national radio show.

In other words, he has zero credibility.


http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Morris/e/B006DS0Q2U/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1

Robert Morris is the commentator no one asked for. He was raised in the NYC suburbs, educated in Ann Arbor, MI and Washington, DC, and is currently lawyering in Istanbul, Turkey. After years of forcing his opinions on people with unwanted emails and Facebook comments, he has decided to start bloviating in longer form. If you buy his pamphlets he will most likely make more. He posts related videos at the More Freedom Foundation

If they remain citizens then they have to pay the freight.

When I'm not living in or using my house I still have to pay for upkeep, insurance and taxes. So when I go home the place won't be a burned out mess and the vital services will still be available.

When and if they return they will, from day one, be eligible countless services that we may or may not utilize. They'll be able to enroll their kids in public schools, use police and fire services, collect disability if they suffer catastrophic illness/injury, their kids can get SSI etc. etc.

The benefits of being a US citizen aren't based on al la cart pay what you use.

Besides, I think you are WAYYY over hyping the inconvenience/cost of filing an abroad tax return. Thousands? Really? I have friends who have been doing for years.

Not to mention the generous foreign earned income deduction you get before you start paying US income taxes on foreign earned money.

It appears you have been reading too much Glen Beck.

thanks for the advise.

Living overseas, I impose no burden on the USA. I am not freight. I pay $100+ to the US government for a 10-year passport. When I go back for a visit, I pay big bucks in use taxes just to get into the country. And that's not including the money that I am paying to an American airline to take me back. If I bring in durable goods that are over a certain value ($100 for non-residents), I have to pay customs tax on that. After I leave my hometown airport, I help to pay for the road I take home through gasoline taxes. While I am in the US, I buy as much as I can to fill a suitcase (which used to be 2 suitcases until the airlines started imposing a ridiculous $100 per second bag surcharge). I spend most of that money at local businesses, and on top of that I pay 4.5% sales tax on food items, 9% sales tax on non-food items, and 14% if I buy any alcohol or stay at a motel. All those taxes (except, perhaps, for motels) are used in my home state, county and town.

If I had kids, took them back to my home state, and enrolled them in public schools there, I would be paying for their education indirectly through property tax. And in Arkansas, even a rented apartment and junker car are subject to property tax. Fire and police protection are provided by the city I am in, not the federal government. Assuming that I would be employed upon my return to the States, my local income and property taxes would help to pay for those services. If I get a catastrophic illness while in the US, I *might* be able to collect disability, but I have paid into that system. If I have not paid into the system, I would not be able to receive disability.

How much US income tax did you pay on your overseas earnings last year?

All my income was generated in the country of my residence, and it was well below the exclusion limit. It has been like that for years.

What are we arguing about again?

edit: did it cost you "thousands of dollars" to file those US returns? Like the OP and his sources claim?

Most years, it has just cost me time to gather up all the materials, and postage to mail the return (I also have to mail a statement of foreign bank accounts separately to Treasury). I haven't used an accountant, but the last time I asked, the fee to have the return processed by a hometown accountant would have been around $200. It's probably safer to have an accountant handle the return if it's complicated.

... those returns.

In addition to some right wing clap trap congressional testimony about some poor Canadian pensioner who never had to pay the income tax piece but spent $42k for tax preparation over 25 years (that's $2500/year).

My bottom line is, like Joe The Plumber's baby fit about the $250k tax increase, the vast majority of filers won't pay a dime extra.

Yet we have an OP about how poor little old ladies on a pension are having their pensions taken away. Or poor old disabled pensioners who have a strange interest in complex trade and foreign investment issues testifying before congress..

that $42K for tax preparation over 25 years ($1680/year) sounds very strange. Really, if the income is consistently that low and the sources are not complicated, it shouldn't cost anywhere near that to file a return. The only thing I can think of is that maybe there was some sort of windfall that occurred one or more times, especially a windfall from a US source, that resulted in a much higher than normal income for the year/s in question and thus a high tax bill.

then, based on my own experiences, I would take that claim with a very large grain of salt. Either that, or someone was ripping her off left and right.

I may very likely reach above the exclusion problem next year (I've had worse problems).

But I'm stunned by your apparent lack of empathy here for people who have to deal with this mess.

Do you endorse the idea of all Americans filing a state tax return for the state they were born in, regardless of where they live, for life, even if it costs them nothing? What worthless bureaucracy you endorse.

I wonder what it costs America to examine these foreign accounts and go through all the little guys returns. Fuck it. Its on your dime, not mine.

Last edited Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)

In fact, using Hassin bin Sober's logic, every American should pay taxes for all 50 states because even though they don't reside there, they might someday!

So you are pulling a Joe The Plumber argument and don't pay the tax. OK.

Just like most countries are as well.

You just don't like to think of the notion of paying taxes in the state you were born in if you don't live there. It pisses you off. So you reject the parallel outright.

This is the precise situation expats face.

.... because, for some reason, they feel need to retain their US rights and privileges (but don't want to pay)?

Let's get down to brass tacks. The income tax doesn't affect THE VAST MAJORITY of filers.

Most of the filers it affects it will affect minimally.

Where the rubber hits the road is the Mit Romneys and UBS customers of the world and they are starting to feel the heat of disclosure of their hidden assets and income.

They are starting to squeal like stuck pigs - but when THEY squeal they pay other people to do it for them.

That's why we see little old disabled ladies on pensions testifying before a republican congress making up stories of $42,000 dollar filing fees. She can't even say with a straight face she paid any of the tax but she can make up a story of $42,000 accountant charges. oh, and the little old pensioner has her pulse on the issues affecting foreign investment and hiring (just for good measure).

for some reason, they feel need to retain their US rights and privileges

The income tax doesn't affect THE VAST MAJORITY of filers

Most of the filers it affects it will affect minimally.

Where the rubber hits the road is the Mit Romneys and UBS customers of the world and they are starting to feel the heat of disclosure of their hidden assets and income

oh, and the little old pensioner

If I'm reading correctly, in order to relinquish, they will need to file for the past 3 years while also gathering 6 years of financial data. The preparation fees will amount to 10's of thousands of dollars.

had 3 years to get your crap together, would it take you that long?

Look--my idiot brother-in-law is in Toronto--warned him about this years ago, and he laughed at me. Maybe he can go become a Canadian citizen. At least it might put a curb on his ass visiting us in America and begging for cash.

to be barred from entering the USA. and yes you are right....Many I know laugh at me right now. but when the banks start closing your accounts if you don't allow them to report you to the IRS they will wake up, eh?

you are trying to shoot the messenger instead of looking at the message.

You are very typical of Glen Beck followers.

perhaps you can have some sympathy for her.
Luckily I am not in her shoes

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/patricia_anderson_daddario.pdf

it up with them.

and the smiling sharks of tax consultants love FATCA.
One cannot do these on line nor can they do their tax returns themselves...so who pays?

rather than residence. I don't really see why anyone who doesn't live in the USA and doesn't do business in the USA should have any liability for US taxes. (It's also charming to see the view that citizenship is a privilege one should have to pay for rather than a right of birth espoused in a supposedly-liberal forum.)

And probably don't intend to. Otherwise you'd think differently.

no one who has lived abroad is aware of the world and how the rest of the 193 countries (Eritrea does not count) lives. My US brother is very proud he knows nothing about the world. Knows nothing.

Russia and Africa. Fail.

Those are two VERY different scenarios.

Did you live with their health care? Pay their taxes? Depend on their public transportation and roads to get to work? Try to speak the language on a daily basis? Read their daily news papers and understand their current events and their political debates? Do you know their most famous rock groups and sing to their lyrics? Did you go to watch their news shows and documentaries and local television? Do you know the country's most famous actor and go see their hit movies? Did you muddle your way through the visa process and work permit process?

Anyone can travel through on US dollars, even extended travel. Not anyone can be an expat. It takes a certain will and drive.

It's absurd they should have to pay any US taxes on top of host country taxes. I know a very famous german movie director I used to work with in Berlin. He told me he had to give up his green card because of the US tax laws.

IT'S RIDICULOUS and it's double taxation!!

I spent little time on that continent getting to know rock bands. Given my rent and the amount of beer I bought in Belgium, am sure I contributed to the society and economy. I enjoyed their healthcare, paid taxes, but watched little tv, as I grew up without one.

I did go to the movies, though. Worked for an international agency, so I avoided work permit problems.

What strikes me about your post is how Eurocentric..and therefore, limiting, are your 'requirements' for culture assimilation. Watched hit movies? Ha!

they make movies and music in Africa too! Still, if you were documenting refugees, I doubt there was much movie availability.

Nevertheless, I was speaking of hit movies from whatever country you were in. Those films hardly ever make it on the international market, and can be very insightful on a cultural level. So it is not like I'm suggesting you watch the latest Bond movie.

Also, I lived for 12 years in a foreign country. I know more than most about what it takes to assimilate. The point I was trying to make was that it is very different to go to a foreign country for a year on someone else's dime or with savings. When you live in the country and work in the country and pay taxes in the country, it's just very different.

subtitles drive you crazy, just remember you are learning something insightful.....or you could act like an actual person, cycle to the nearest pub (I lived over one that made honey mead,) drink 'til drunk, eat frites in the market, crash your bike, throw it in the canal, and find another pub.

I was not in Belgium to go to the movies.

That would let the states have just as much visibility. What would it hurt you? Its just a little bit of extra time.

.... and use the bridges, roads, schools and other vital services I have been paying for?

Do we back-charge them on a per diem?

I'll be traveling abroad for a month next year. Do I get to deduct 1/12th of my taxes next year?

Do you think maybe my mortgage company and local property tax authority will let me slide for a month?

if someone comes back to the USA for a short period while maintaining their primary residence abroad, then what's unfair? Do you force non-US citizens to pay tax when they visit the country? No? Same thing. Anyone visiting the US is going to pay taxes on any purchases and transactions during the length of their visit. But they'll be going back to wherever they actually live, and work.

Do we back charge them?

They didn't own property there, eh? They didn't work in the USA, eh?

what is your reasoning? back charging??? I don't understand this logic.

Or use bridges roads and schools?

The whole issue is a right wing circle jerk just like all the clowns "who earned $250K" unclogging toilets screamed about their income over $250k being taxed at a higher rate.

You get a $91k exemption (as of 2009 it is higher now, yes?).

Sounds like a pretty good deal. You can earn $91k and not have to pay the freight for Seal Team Six to rescue you from Somali pirates.

All you captains of industry and "Ambassadors" (seriously, where did that come from? Beck?) can rest easy.

I am not a right wing jerk. I am a progressive liberal left to Obama.

You are being fed false information.

when one earns 91k in another country, one pays for that country they reside in income taxes to that country they live in and this supports that country's military.

Now you are sounding like your words. A rightwing circle jerk. In Canada I pay for my military. I do not want to pay for wars started on lies.

I am not a Beck fan...or ever will be. He would dispise me.

I love the new pope even though I excommunicated myself from the catholic church because of its excesses of wealth and opression of woman and attack on children.

Who are you to judge me on one article that I have mutual agreement with the writer who points out the truth. He may be looking out for the billionaires but I am not

I have become very disappointed with DU lately. You are not the same DU I started on.

more people will begin to understand how absurd it is to be called "Right Wing" or "Racist" to oppose a Right Wing Heritage Foundation Health insurance scam put forth by a President who says his policies would have been considered republican in the '80s

is probably better off not coming back to the USA anyway. And if they do, after moving back to the USA, so what? They'll have been paying tax on their income earned in the US while resident. Charge them if they're not legally resident, simple. (The UK NHS, for instance, is free at the point of use for UK residents; non-resident UK citizens are charged for services received.)

still paid her US taxes as well as her Canadian taxes.

Please take time to read this . It is her story. to the Ways and Means departent in the USA.

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/patricia_anderson_daddario.pdf

....in US taxes on her foreign income yet paid $42k for tax preparation services since 1988. ($2500 year).

Then I fell out of my chair laughing at this tripe.

The little old disabled lady on a pension who earns little enough to have all her foreign income sheltered from US income but is worried about complex foreign trade and investment issues AND gets a seat in front of House Ways and Means.

This is bought and paid for hype by wealthy individuals who stand to gain A FUCKING TON from not having to report income and holdings. So they trot up some "poor slob" victim whose story doesn't stand up to the slightest cursory scrutiny.

But the little people are supposed to get all worked up so "Pam The Plumber" doesn't have to file a couple forms never mind someone else will stand to gain millions.

Yes, let's relieve Pam The Plumber of her filings and let Mitt Romney hide another couple hundred million in income and assets.

While we are at it let's do away with the repressive "Death Tax" and income tax on billionaires... erm I mean job creators

This isn't hard to figure out. Other countries do things this way. (Every other country does things this way, in fact, except Eritrea.)

And I don't have a problem with US citizens abroad paying a few bucks in taxes to cover their piece.

Really, how much money are we talking about here for someone earning, say, $100k abroad? They have to pay income tax on $2500 dollars after their very generous $97,500 foreign exemption? Oh boy the "job creators" ain't gonna be happy - oh wait.

Is that enough to have your have your underwear in a twist? what's the tax on $2500?

I bet it's enough to have the Mit Romneys of the world's underwear in a twist. They might even hire a "victim" to testify in front of congress.

Seems to me, paying literally a few bucks on $100k foreign income AND being able to come home to bridges roads and schools ain't a bad shake.

What's the justification? "Bridges, roads and schools"? Those are paid for, mostly, out of state and local taxes. Apparently your justification for taxing non-resident citizens is...maintenance of the US military.

"When I drink, everybody drinks! When I pay, everybody pays!"

I don't like paying for military anymore than the next guy but I can't carve it out and refuse to pay. I CAN move abroad and have most of my income sheltered from US taxes. So there's that.

I guess you really don't want to get down to brass tacks and discuss what THE VAST MAJORITY OF FOREIGN FILERS actually have to pony up???

Until you are in the position where you have to pay for two sets of bridges, roads and schools (one set you do not ever use, nor cannot due to proximity), you are in no position to judge how much--if any at all--is a fair shake.

Remember, different regions have different rules. I've agreed to pay more in property taxes (3K a year). I've agreed to pay more in sales tax (12%). I've agreed to pay about 5-10% more in income tax than the US. I pay far more in fuel taxes (contributing to about $6 a gallon of gas). I pay over $4 a gallon for milk due to different laws. The lack of American subsidies make food items cost 10-40% more than in the US.

All of this is OK. Its what I pay to live with the bridges, roads, schools and healthcare that I want. But do not sit there and tell me I need to shell out anymore for your imploding, decaying corporatocracy because your incompetent country can't figure out how to fund its damn expenses (throw in whatever fucking excuse you want).

Us expats who went out to seek a better life for our familes are not your solution to your teabagger/corporate run failing state

"your teabagger/corporate run failing state"

I'm curious why you don't relinquish.

1) Sounds like another pain in the ass. I don't like dealing with pains in the ass. You don't either. That's why you don't want to file a state return for what state you were born in. What a drag.
2) I cannot really unless I have citizenship in another country
3) Heroes Earnings Assistance and Relief Act of 2008 (expatriation tax)
4) Worried about future action regarding barring renounced expats from entry. I wish to have the same right to visit as any member of a country with a visa treaty.
5) Its a choice I don't necessarily wish to make for my children
6) There is a possibility I may at some time need to take care of ailing parents by residing there for over a 6 month window. Why make that more difficult?

etc, etc.

I don't think any of that really merits I should continually pay some fee or that the US has a right to track my assets.

Fuck your bridges and roads. If I use them, Ill pay for them. I currently use and pay for someone elses. Stop fawning over Warren Buffet and get him and his buddies to pay for your fuckn roads.

That's exactly what this law does.

Along with making a few higher income crybabies chip in a few bucks to pay for the bridges and roads their kids might use some day.


boo hoo

They already pay more bucks for their own fucking roads. Get over yourself and your crumbling fucking bridges already.

Im tired of hearing you cry about your fucking underfunded bridges and wanting "others" to fund them because you fucking can't (nor can you make your corporate masters).

Sort your own shit out and then come talk to me.

And your kids too

You get your shit and giggles preying on the vulnerable to fund your own shit while you take your unique fat cat deductions that we don't get (like earned income or mortgage interest writeoff).

Its just so fucking hilarious to imagine having hard working families somewhere else pay your fucking burden while you freeload under the guise of liberalism.

What a joke.

I already pay taxes for a real progressive government. Fuck if I'm going to pay a fucking cent for the ass-backwards, imperialistic juggernaut that is flying the fake flag of liberalism these days. I'm not going to pay the freeloaders bill.

I thought you wanted your bridges and roads funded. This whole mess is just about them paying for the poll workers?

Do you vote?

Do your parents?

People who don't vote helped elect teabaggers. Nice job.

Though I'm trying to see the daylight between your Taxed Enough Already position and their anti-tax/government position.

You want to keep the good ole USA on ice for yourself, your kids and your presumably Medicare/SS collecting folks but god forbid you want to take any responsibility or pay a piece of the tab - THAT"S FASCISM/COMMUNISM/FAILED STATE!!!!!!!