They are just very active and vocal. There are around 10 members in that group that are active on this topic, that is all. Most of the responses disagree with them.

to complain about "rape porn defenders" in the GD porn threads

Heh heh. Yeah, meta was educational, for folks who were paying attention.

Meta was very, very interesting at times

I agree that most people don't care but it looks to me like 9-10 feminists and 9-10 porn defenders go at it, while others make snippy/humorous comments around the edges or ignore it entirely.

Bryant

You mean it's just Porn Thread Wars?

Which wrapped up last week.

I thought porn was bad...

and icky...

....

... to differentiate the legal and illegal aspects for some people.

Consenting adults should be able to enjoy the transactional benefits inherent in the creation and consumption of legal porn.

What are the "inherent" transactional benefits?

To create porn there are usually at a minimum two transactions, one being a contract between the producers and the actors and the other between the viewer and producer. The remuneration would be either monetary or psychological. If it is being done for money the inherent transactional benefits should be quite obvious.

If there is no money being paid for in the making of the porn then the transactional benefits have a different value unit used. Perhaps the people making and sharing the porn are in a relationship, or just get off on being watched. The inherent transactional benefits are more psychological than monetary in nature and would probably be a an oral agreement. The contract between the producer could be as simple as an agreement between someone and their self. They probably get a thrill out of the making of the porn. And they may even be making it for themselves.

I hear there are a lot of people out there who like the way their bodies look in motion and enjoy sharing that imagery.

I could probably find a few more transactions, but I think two involving money and two using a different reward system should suffice to clarify what the benefits are.

And another win for mental masturbation, as one of my history prof's used to say. Being anti-porn doesn't make one anti-sex, OR a Rick Santorum supporter. Geesh.

There's plenty of rotten porn on the internet, well deserving of feminist scolding.

Thankfully, none of it pictures, movies, or stories of me.

There are naked pics of me on the internet. If you find the one of me wearing only a hat and a smile in the sunshine, post it here.

I don't have a copy, but damn, I was HOT!

Not all of us are ' Lisbeth Salanders', the computer wiz with searching capabilities!

It's really not quite so simple, even if some would like to believe it is.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/41483660@N04/11181218473/" title="article-2479012-190F7D8800000578-885_634x830 by pbmus, on Flickr"><img src="" width="634" height="830" alt="article-2479012-190F7D8800000578-885_634x830"></a>

Hope not. Feminism is a fine ideal in itself, but anything can be taken too far, and they do. SRS is the Westboro of feminism.

(cliffnotes for the unclued: SRS is a board on Reddit that is notorious for this sort of thing.)

authoritian views on everyone. Alot of their links supporting their "arguments" come straight from right wing think tanks.

The objection is to the normalizing of violence against women, to the working conditions of those being filmed, at least those are my main objections to violent porn.

Really, do you think an intelligent conversation on the subject is beyond DU?

I hate anyone being injured for someone else's profit. How is worker safety and impact on the population viewing the violence not a worthy subject?

intelligent conversation on ANY subject is beyond DU since the favorite past-time is to divide DU into imaginary camps and fling snark at the other camp, which is, of course, just chock full of irrational wankers.

Or is wanker the wrong word for this topic?

have a field day with.

However, Watching the cycle on DU, repeat itself. It was violent porn protests, then general porn protests, then documentaries about porn protests. Now it's repeating. it's a slippery slope of censorship which the anti-porn group on DU fully embraces. There are already laws against violent porn. It's that simple, abuse of children mutilation, etc.

If you want to go after someone, instead of yanking peoples chain on DU go after Hunter Moore. The Revenge porn master.

Odds are none of your group will. Because this guy plays for keeps, and you won't be playing in a sandbox kicking sand in the other kids faces.

Moore comes after anyone who messes with his empire.

I suppose it's much easier to make pointless posts here to people who already have made up their minds. Though at least this way you can still pretend to be activists.

There are a few who, for whatever reason, don't like any form of porn or nudity or discussion about sex.

Which is fine.

Except that they expect us all to stay shut up about it because they find it offensive.

I find their expectations offensive.

As to the transgender porn question, I don't know. I don't think it's Misogyny or Misandry in every case, if ever.

feminism and how it is at the root of all of their problems. Maybe it's because I am surrounded by male family members and friends who are strongly pro-feminists and raising their kids that way. This steriotyping of feminists is really stupid. And it's OLD. Anybody who does this is automatically dating themselves back to the 1960s.

Some people just have to GET OVER IT.

it's ideological fundamentalism. If it doesn't fit the doctrine, it must be evil.

Or maybe the many, many, may folks on the other side of the 'ideological fundamentalist' coin won't listen either.

BTW, I do not recall any one of these 'fundamentalist' women calling porn "evil".

The discomfort with porn takes the form not of any rational argument against its content, nor have there been any substantive suggestions about how to deal with something that causes so much ire. There have been allusions to cultural and psychological damage, labor abuse, and spurious confusion about the difference between fiction and reality. Mostly there has been an orgy of emotional projection and sanctimony.

The entire discussion on the "pro porn" side has been generally anthropological. The anti porn side has been an extended exercise in "hate the sin not the sinner" - mostly - although if you crowd them enough, no such fine distinctions are assured.

Literalist emotional response to text and images either for or against doctrine are part and parcel of fundamentalist thinking. All you have to do is read the threads.

Nice.

Thanks for 'listening' while you've been reading and posting on the same threads I have.

Do you have any substantive suggestions for the problem of pornography in the United States? Or do you even think it's a problem?

Yet you ask me if I think there is a "problem".

The foremost suggestion I have is: listen to people who are repeatedly outlining their concerns about the porn industry.

But contrary to what many here might think, I do.

Those concerns are useless if they are voiced only for their own sake. One particular poster has been stymied over and over again and has invariably fled to some other pallid excuse to "voice concern" and then use those concerns to excoriate others for attempting discussion. In at least one instance she declined to discuss the employment of one solution that was a hallmark of liberal politics in the twentieth century. I know because I asked her - twice.

We can hardly avoid listening when those who wave their sanctimony over their heads at every opportunity loudly proclaim they will not be silenced.

Most women are.

Some of us have learned that it's better to let men tell their truths.

Nor am I accustomed to resorting to passive aggressive deflection when I'm stumped for something to say but don't want to be the last one saying anything.

But maybe we're getting off on the wrong foot here. Let's return to the question in the OP. Is porn bad? I think it is, although not in the way you might think it is. Porn is art. I also think it's kitsch that panders to the narrowest sliver of human experience at the expense of complexity and ambiguity.

Do you think porn is bad? If so, why?

Bad? That's awfully broad.

I gave you something to work with there. Would you care to return the favor?

As a woman I want to say that I fully support your interpretation of the "great porn debates" -- I have been particularly dismayed by the comments made by a few DU members about bdsm on the "porn debates" threads. I (too) believed that this community would be especially open-minded about porn, sexuality, whatever flicks one's switch so to speak (within the safe and sane and safeworded guidelines of bdsm for example), but I have been dismayed by the moralizing and condemnation.

I appreciated your comments.

It's been kind of a long "DU day" and it's nice to hear some support.

MTF transsexuals are women after all.

I can't think of one single woman among my friends and family who doesn't say exactly what she feels. As a matter of fact, I've worked with men, who when around a group of women, seem strangely silent. I'd thank you not to speak for all of us, especially when most of what you're saying is completely false.

I did speak for myself and the women whom I personally know.

I didn't mean to accidentally include and your family and friends.

I honestly don't see that as being accurate here in the west, however, in obviously repressive cultures where religion and fanatics deny women even the most basic human rights, you're probably correct.

because I tend to think of women as a global population.

Again, my apologies for accidentally speaking for you, your friends and family.

However, I believe the subject of porn is probably among the least of the worries of the millions of women starving, being widowed or killed in decades of war, forced into marriages where they're treated lower than cattle, and having not even basic human rights.

But, all of these things happen in the US too.

Why not include the trafficking of girls, women and boys for pornography in this country, the questionable working conditions in pornography in this country, the starving women and children in this country, girls who are forced into marriage in this country.

They have basic human rights?

What made you think I don't?

It's a crime, and should be investigated and the perpetrators of it prosecuted and locked away.

Your post said 'most women are afraid to speak out'. Millions of women - and men - are speaking out about this. I see it all over the web - petitions, on blogs, cases where countries are working together to catch these people, the UN .... what makes you think there's a single person here who isn't outraged by it?

If you see something you believe is illegal, I would hope you'd report it over and over until you get some results. My BIL is with the RCMP here and has been part of investigating smuggling rings of underage girls 'and boys' - it's aged him overnight. Of course, we're all very concerned about these illegal and horrible activities. Why are you trying to imply that people who see nothing wrong with consenting adults acting in - even enjoying, porn, don't care about victims caught up in it who have no ability to consent? Isn't that a bit self-serving?

And this has little to do with your post:

You are not used to being 'silenced', are you?

Most women are.

Some of us have learned that it's better to let men tell their truths.

Why on earth would you think it was better for a man to 'tell their truth' if you thought it misrepresented what you wanted to say?

Wow. You're really losing me with those two.

First, I'm not trying to imply anything - like your friends and family, I will say what I mean.

Second: what??

ETA - thanks for editing the post I just responded to

I guess people who find "choke fucking" to vaguely sound in violence are just crazy people.

It's not irrational to dislike porn, but one needs to bring with them some measure of rationality or they're just spinning their emotional wheels. If someone has an emotional reaction to something there should follow some sort of rational assessment of their feelings and, dog forbid, a proposal for action in the real world.

These big honking threads are fueled by people wailing about porn, defense of porn, responses to complaints about porn, complaints about complaints about porn, umbrage about insensitivity to dislike for porn, punctuated with stampedes to the worst possible examples of every aspect of porn without offering anything like a rational solution for what we are supposed to do about such outrages.

Over and over every complaint has been patiently dealt with by member after member only for the aggrieved plaintiff to flee to another previously solved unsolvable problem.

Porn is just a foil.

It's first amendment protected activity.

The battle isn't in the court room, it's hearts and minds stuff.

Make art, not porn.

Porn isn't sex. It's not even sexy.

Just like watching ESPN isn't a sport.

The discussions are about normalizing violence against women and perhaps fetishizing it. And I care about the workers too. I find those of you who swarm to the defense of violent porn to be quite ridiculous in your characterizations of anyone who brings up any valid point as a prude.

Hmmm, very odd.

And swarming, really, it's not there.

I expressed an opinion as an individual, any impression you have of swarming has to be a construction on your part.

Cheers.

violence a prude is my problem.

I am sorry to have falsely accused you of participating in a swarm.

I hardly think that violence is a normal way to express sex. The discussions going on have been about violent/rape porn.

These miserable discussions have left me really sad, as so many people on DU think that their rights to view someone being beat up in the name of some sexual enjoyment trumps all other rights.

That is what I simply cannot understand.

S&M involves what you would call "violence". Spanking, binding, wax-dripping, whipping, you name it.

Is accepting that people enjoy S&M (many people) also "normalizing" violence?

Is this changed somehow when someone watches the S&M acts being performed?

But if someone is paying someone to get beat up, or tortured for commercial film sales, it is. I do not think that doing harm to people on purpose for pleasure is justified. not people, not animals, nobody. That is my opinion.

But I am hardly in charge of the world. I am barely in charge of my farm. I make sure that on my farm no one (especially the animals) are hurt on purpose.

I do not understand why anyone could support someone being employed to be beaten or hurt on purpose for pleasure.

it goes against every worker's rights issue that I can think of.

I am clearly not up on what people in clubs or groups share with each other. Itis not my world at all. My biggest pleasure is watching seeds sprout, tending to my sheep and creating yarns and fabrics. I love my customers, i love seeing what they create.

This world of enjoying someone being hurt or humiliated is not something i understand.

I am against anything painful being done commercially. And I do not care if people claim that it is OK, that it really did not hurt, etc. I do not want people employed to be hurt for anyone else's pleasure. It is not acceptable to me. I cannot see how it can be acceptable to OSHA either and wonder how this whole industry has been allowed to do this to the acting people.

It isn't about consenting adults because being forced to do porn thanks to slavery conditions or financial pressures isn't "consent."

Another thread to trash.

Well done!

Now I know who will not enter into this conversation with reasonableness or logic.

They exist & it's NOT occurring in some dudes basement,they are huge and rather amazing. Not all porn is this weird seedy back alley bullshit. God forforbid you ever go to a real liberal country like Australia where these expos are awesome.

I'm pretty sure that makes it one of the biggest conventions in the world. Then there's the annual Fetish Ball which is our Halloween-on-steroids-biggest-bash-of-the-year (except for New Year's Eve).

Well at least not against their will anyways. There is a huge disconnect here about voluntary & involuntary participation, not to mention the entire world of BDSM. If one has actual knowledge or experience in any of it & just think it's all icky & therefore shouldn't exist then that's a problem.

Our provincial, big-ole-stick-up-their-butts busy bodies use their religious perversion to keep these occupations out of the mainstream because it doesn't fit their prejudices, and by doing so, ensure that fucking scumbag pieces of shit get to run multibillion dollar industries with no oversight or interference. And I'll bet you can never guess who the most prolific customers are...

Gee, I wonder why there are so many horror stories surrounding what is absolutely normal human behavior...

Europe & the different ways they deal with sexuality. Just watching Real Sex on HBO can put a whole new angle on it for people who have never been overseas. For lack of a better analogy it is a lot like the war on drugs. Prostitution is the oldest trade around for a reason & it doesn't have shit to do with trafficking.

Our "icky parts" are God's punishment for being so icky. Good boys and girls don't like their "icky parts" and should never even look at them, let alone, touch them or allow anyone else to touch them, they're very special and very icky at the same time. Another of God's wonders that He gave us but doesn't want us to do anything with.

OK, I think I've OD'ed on DU again. Talk to you later.

The first time my youngest went he was walking (started at about 7 mths) but was a big boy about 40 lbs & tall. He thought it was a buffet. Our kids don't view nudity as anything but natural, such insanity.

Peace

Visit xhamster or xvideos.com sometime.

They aren't "victimizing" anyone but themselves.

Its almost like they dont know that porn is no longer a vhs doing the rounds but people filming themselves or cam to cam interaction.

It inevitably sources back to some far-right-wing fundie religious outfit, 100% of the time.

Its embarrassing seeing that sentiment echoed on DU.

on both "sides."

Its like they have never actually surfed the net to see how porn has changed since they accidently saw some in the seventies.

And in a way I understand where they're coming from - there is some truly awful stuff out there, even if much of it is "consensual" at least in the strict sense. The only real solution I can think of, though - aside from prosecuting those who produce actual rape/torture videos - is that people be more discerning in their viewing habits.

The perceived consensus often reflects that. Times are changing. Masturbation used to be a taboo topic and is now a popular meme.

The actual number isn't quite 99%, but the vast majority of porn items on the Internet today are produced by amateurs and are shot by home video cameras and phones. While the bulk of the porn economy still tends to flow to the corporate porn studios, the majority of the actual items are created by Joe or Jane down the street.

A rather large segment of the human population has some exhibitionist tendencies (a fact that has been recorded since the dawn of human history), and it's generally social stigma that keeps them in check. The Internet has long provided a fairly anonymous platform for people to indulge in their exhibitionist tendencies. The odds of any particular nude selfie or home movie being connected to an individual are fairly small. I'm fairly certain that there are some nude photos of me floating around on the Internet, and I'm absolutely positive that there are some of my wife. I'm not particularly concerned about it, because the photos mean nothing without names attached, and with seven billion of us walking around this planet, the chances of anyone connecting those photos to me, as an individual, are about the same as the odds of me getting hit by lightning.

The anti-porners just ignore the facts. Their arguments may have been valid 30 years ago, but nowadays you could ban ALL commercial porn production and it would barely make a dent in the overall amount of porn being published to the Internet every single day. In fact, to make a statement that might shock a few of the people I've been arguing with...I actually don't have any argument against legally limiting the commercial production of porn. So long as consenting individuals maintain the ability to create, share, and even sell their own private works, I couldn't really give a damn about the big commercial ventures.

Any of those sites you mention still have plenty of pay sites advertised just like you see anywhere else on the internet, so I doubt 99% of porn is homemade. Obviously lots of folks are clicking on those ads and offering up their credit cards, which most of those sites eventually get around to doing -- making you pay if you want to continue. Porn is about money. Sure there are plenty of exhibitionists out there, but porn brings in the bucks. Most of the comments that I've seen referencing "victims" are about trafficking, but if you want to ridule victims, then I guess that's your right.

We're all supposed to be ashamed and never watch it again or something. Women in particular, are expected to lock-step with the anti-porn flamey/shamey OPs.

It appears that the amateur porn prevalence would indicate that a lot of women actually enjoy the act of creating their own porn.

Not anything I personally would do, but those who want to - have at it.

Women who dare disagree with some on DU about porn are "pathetic" and just looking for pats on the head from "da men".

Did you get a pat? Are the men fresh out of pats here? Who is in charge of the Head Pat dispensary? I want to file a complaint.

My hour comes up March 24th at 2pm. If you haven't gotten your head pat by then, pm me.