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sad sally

(2,627 posts) Sun Mar 11, 2012, 01:52 PM Mar 2012

Lone gunman or "group of soldiers" - what is the truth?

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan | Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:42pm EDT

(Reuters) - Western forces shot dead 16 civilians including nine children in southern Kandahar province on Sunday, Afghan officials said, in a rampage that witnesses said was carried out by American soldiers who were laughing and appeared drunk.

One Afghan father who said his children were killed in the shooting spree accused soldiers of later burning the bodies.

Witnesses told Reuters they saw a group of U.S. soldiers arrive at their village in Kandahar's Panjwayi district at around 2 am, enter homes and open fire.

The incident, one of the worst of its kind since the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, is likely to deepen the divide between Washington and Kabul.

The U.S. embassy in Kabul said an American soldier had been detained over the shooting. It added that anti-U.S. reprisals were possible following the killings, which come just weeks after U.S. soldiers burned copies of the Koran at a NATO base, triggering widespread anti-Western protests,

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/us-afghanistan-civilians-idUSBRE82A02V20120311

12 replies

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Lone gunman or "group of soldiers" - what is the truth? (Original Post) sad sally Mar 2012 OP

In either case a constipated looking Pentagon spokesman will "sincerely regret" it. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2012 #1

Did Reuters get this wrong? Was it one soldier or not? Comrade Grumpy Mar 2012 #2

That's the unanswered question. Is there a scrubbing of truth going on? sad sally Mar 2012 #4

Another "we'll conduct a thorough investigation" moment. TheCowsCameHome Mar 2012 #3

If witnesses saw multiple soldiers do the killing I have no reason to doubt them. Poll_Blind Mar 2012 #5

Seems like lots of bad assumptions here. ManiacJoe Mar 2012 #6

Good lord. Speaking of bad assumptions. Killing 16 people in 3 houses and nobody wakes up? Poll_Blind Mar 2012 #10

I made no such assumption. ManiacJoe Mar 2012 #11

Does it really matter. The end result is still dead women and children and a reason for the people appleannie1 Mar 2012 #7

Oh hell yeah it matters if there was more than one soldier involved. nt Poll_Blind Mar 2012 #8

You're absolutely right - it matters. sad sally Mar 2012 #12

The Freepers are already excusing the whole thing. appleannie1 Mar 2012 #9

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)

1. In either case a constipated looking Pentagon spokesman will "sincerely regret" it.

Reply to sad sally (Original post)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 02:02 PM

Mar 2012

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)

2. Did Reuters get this wrong? Was it one soldier or not?

Reply to sad sally (Original post)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 02:04 PM

Mar 2012

sad sally

(2,627 posts)

4. That's the unanswered question. Is there a scrubbing of truth going on?

Reply to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 02:14 PM

Mar 2012

Were the witnesses the survivors? Was one soldier overcome with remorse and turned himself in as the lone gunman?

Last year, there was the 12-soldier “kill team” that “hunted” Afghan civilians “for sport,” murdered them, and posed for demeaning photos with their corpses.

There were the four wisecracking U.S. Marines who videotaped themselves urinating on the bodies of dead Afghans (we never knew if there were terrorists or civilians.

There was also that sniper unit proudly sporting a Nazi SS banner in another photographed incident and the U.S. combat outpost named “Aryan.”

And the British soldiers who were filmed “abusing” children.

What is this war doing to the people of Afghanistan? Talk about PTSD!

TheCowsCameHome

(40,168 posts)

3. Another "we'll conduct a thorough investigation" moment.

Reply to sad sally (Original post)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 02:12 PM

Mar 2012

When will this crap ever end?

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)

5. If witnesses saw multiple soldiers do the killing I have no reason to doubt them.

Reply to sad sally (Original post)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 02:23 PM

Mar 2012

But the soldier in question did turn himself in after the killing so I'm a bit confused about how all that would work.

16 people is a lot of dead people. That's a fuckload of bullets and making sure you're actually killing them instead of just spraying gunfire indiscriminately. Don't want to overstate the obvious but people generally have no desire to die or be injured. The moment riflefire erupted, everyone nearby woke up and either armed themselves or hid or tried to get away. They live in a part of the world where this sort of thing happens frequently so a toll that high is...unusual for a single person.

The only other thing I was considering is the possibility that the killer used grenades (I don't recall reading anything indicating that) or that he tricked the villagers to come out of their houses or expose themselves in some way so he could kill so many of them at once.

To kill 16 people with an automatic rifle like that, he'd have to have reloaded more than a few times. That means he spent quite a bit of time on the scene and it's hard to imagine that he was able to do it and then literally walk back to base to turn himself in.

Still, improbable things like that happen all the time. I have a grisly suspicion there might have been very, very few men in the houses he targeted and the overall report will indicate it was mostly women and children massacred.

Puzzling, disturbing, pointless.

PB

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)

6. Seems like lots of bad assumptions here.

Reply to Poll_Blind (Reply #5)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 03:25 PM

Mar 2012

The reports I have seen say most of the dead were shot in the head while sleeping. That only requires one round each. 16 bodies could be 16 rounds; that is less than one 30-round magazine with the rifle in semi-auto mode instead of burst mode. Magazine changes take less than 5 seconds each. Standard combat load is at least 200 rounds per soldier.

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)

10. Good lord. Speaking of bad assumptions. Killing 16 people in 3 houses and nobody wakes up?

Reply to ManiacJoe (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 03:49 PM

Mar 2012

16 bullets, 16 people? Are you kidding me?

Father at window shot in face, Afghan witness says

Agha, 20, said American soldiers who had opened fire in the early hours entered the family home and waited in silence for what seemed an eternity. He lay on the floor, pretending to be dead.

"The Americans stayed in our house for a while. I was very scared," he told Reuters.

"My mother was shot in her eye and her face. She was unrecognizable. My brother was shot in the head and chest and my sister was killed, too."

Agha's account of multiple American soldiers shooting villagers could not be immediately verified.

Fires were also set in the houses to burn the bodies. Images of the remains of the fires and the children's partly burned bodies can be seen here.

PB

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)

11. I made no such assumption.

Reply to Poll_Blind (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 03:56 PM

Mar 2012

People being woken up would explain the bodies outside the houses.

I will be interesting to see what the story ends up as when the media gets its facts straightened out.

appleannie1

(5,068 posts)

7. Does it really matter. The end result is still dead women and children and a reason for the people

Reply to sad sally (Original post)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 03:35 PM

Mar 2012

of Afghanistan to hate us even more than they do already. And yet another reason for them to kill more of our troops. Can you imagine the outrage if it occurred here? We need to end this stupid occupation. NOW

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)

8. Oh hell yeah it matters if there was more than one soldier involved. nt

Reply to appleannie1 (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 03:38 PM

Mar 2012

sad sally

(2,627 posts)

12. You're absolutely right - it matters.

Reply to Poll_Blind (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 04:52 PM

Mar 2012

When groupthink makes armed soldiers to take irrational action that results in these kinds of horrors committed on innocent people, there are big BIG problems for the leaders (including the commander in chief) vs a lone soldier whose mind has flipped because of the insane war he (or she) is fighting.

appleannie1

(5,068 posts)

9. The Freepers are already excusing the whole thing.

Reply to sad sally (Original post)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 03:42 PM

Mar 2012

But the important thing is that no Korans were burned.

2 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:37:48 AM by vladimir998
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To: DCBryan1

Maybe he was enraged when they burned a few bibles.

3 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:42:57 AM by Usagi_yo
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator
To: Usagi_yo; vladimir998

Don’t be silly. This was simply an isolated incident of workplace violence! <./BigSis>

5 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:45:08 AM by DCBryan1 ("Forget the lawyers, FIRST kill the journalists!"- Die Ritter, die "nee" sagen)
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To: DCBryan1

After the nationwide rioting and killings motivated by the burning of the terrorist Korans, buckle up for this one.

6 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:46:20 AM by Truth29
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To: Leep

It’s Sunday morning. Can we hold off on the moronic comments for a few hours?

7 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:47:00 AM by 1rudeboy
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To: Truth29
buckle up for this one.

This is definately a "hold onto your butts" moment. Prayers to our troops!
8 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:00:46 AM by DCBryan1 ("Forget the lawyers, FIRST kill the journalists!"- Die Ritter, die "nee" sagen)
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To: 1rudeboy

Can we?

9 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:03:39 AM by Leep (Dueling tag lines=don't worry,you'll be a vegetable guy soon<>It's gonna be a Newt day!)
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To: Leep

Apparently not.

10 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:05:02 AM by 1rudeboy
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To: DCBryan1

He will be allowed to be tried by the Afganis and either stoned to death or beheaded for the world to see the power of Islam, thank you mr president!

11 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:08:05 AM by ronnie raygun (B B)
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To: DCBryan1

Gust a guess lacking anything but speculation...

He snapped and the people involved were honor killers/killers of a local ‘friend’ or other similar person that he had personal knowledge of/involvement. Surprised it has not happened more

12 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:09:29 AM by Norm Lenhart
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To: DCBryan1

My take:

If true The O will use the incident to accelerate our withdrawal from Afghanistan. If untrue, The O will still use the incident to accelerate our withdrawal from Afghanistan.

13 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:25:55 AM by InterceptPoint (TIN)
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To: DCBryan1
Minister of Border and Tribal Affairs Asadullah Khalid, who is investigating the incident, said the soldier entered three homes, killing 11 people in the first one.

Not good enough source, because muslim=liar.

Let's hear from a non-knuckledragger.
14 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:27:46 AM by ScottinVA (GOP, meet Courage... Courage, meet GOP.)
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator
To: DCBryan1

The cover story is this soldier left the barracks on his own early in the morning and began his “rampage”. The media will crucify this guy and the President will hang him out to dry. Hell they will probably call him a terrorist since its an attack on Muslims.

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