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stopbush

(24,396 posts)
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:15 PM Dec 2013

Has DU Turned The Corner On The JFK CT BS? Apparently So.

I was prepared for the deluge of JFK CT posts at DU, what with the 50th anniversary of his death.

What I wasn't prepared for was the evidence-based refutation of the usual JFK CT nonsense by many of my fellow DUers. That wouldn't have happened a few years ago. Lot's of good, fact-based posts have been offered over the past month, which presented a real opportunity to learn about the actual evidence in the case.

The Kool-Ade drinkers now seem to be contained to the usual suspects of old-guard CTists who have never met a CT they couldn't embrace, and a few nubes who appear to have wandered into the middle of a knife fight they didn't come armed to engage.

If true, that's progress!

Now, can the admins please move the JFK CT malarkey back into the creative thinking forum where it rightly belongs? The JFK anniversary is over - GD doesn't seem like the right place to get creative with one's ongoing fantasies.

404 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Has DU Turned The Corner On The JFK CT BS? Apparently So. (Original Post) stopbush Dec 2013 OP
Saved from the JFK CT by the porn thread deluge. nt Xipe Totec Dec 2013 #1
Did Oswald have any porn on him when he was arrested? Orrex Dec 2013 #4
IT WAS LARRY FLYNT ON THE GRASSY KNOLL Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #52
kind of makes you wonder if zombie LHO is the one who shot Flynt. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #56
Col Mustard in the library with the candlestick... stopbush Dec 2013 #84
Hmmm . . . what movie was showing at the theater where he was arrested? Jack Rabbit Dec 2013 #54
'War is Hell' struggle4progress Dec 2013 #185
Thank you. That sounds like a dreadful movie Jack Rabbit Dec 2013 #230
There were boxes in his garage. Scuba Dec 2013 #97
You ain't kidding. zappaman Dec 2013 #20
Well, the OP is JFK porn RobertEarl Dec 2013 #57
Oh Noes!1!11! Xipe Totec Dec 2013 #67
It is not being hidden.... these days RobertEarl Dec 2013 #71
But he's conspiring to have the threads hidden... That's very suspicious Xipe Totec Dec 2013 #101
I RARELY see you conspiracy folks talking about his LIFE Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #72
Put your glasses on RobertEarl Dec 2013 #79
If my OP is porn, then what does that make threads that aver LBJ had JFK killed? stopbush Dec 2013 #86
Correct..The supposed "above it all" whiners are just younger DUer's who don't remember & don't care whathehell Dec 2013 #329
The Admins had already made the decision. BootinUp Dec 2013 #330
Despite all of the attempts to quash other opinion, the idea that Kennedy was killed by a lone Th1onein Dec 2013 #2
People are welcome to have other opinions. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #3
The "facts" allowed in by the fixed WC and not shredded by the CIA over the last 50 yrs arendt Dec 2013 #11
I don't decide what the facts are. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #24
And which version (the infamous frame 313) of the film did you see? arendt Dec 2013 #33
There's only one version Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #36
That's what I call enforced blindness. McAdams is a clown. Zen Democrat Dec 2013 #80
Ad hominem Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #82
McAdams rarely offers his opinion at his website. All he does is provide links stopbush Dec 2013 #87
there are no facts! wildbilln864 Dec 2013 #111
Nothing prevents both forward and backward spatter from a bullet to the back of the head: struggle4progress Dec 2013 #186
Gee, how can one be sure JFK was even killed? It could have all been a huge special effect. stopbush Dec 2013 #85
+100 840high Dec 2013 #306
No, it's not a matter of fact and evidence. In fact, that is disputed by many. Th1onein Dec 2013 #13
Yes, he was our president (I was 9 at the time). stopbush Dec 2013 #92
I disagree with you. Th1onein Dec 2013 #150
Let me ask you a question: if we stipulate for the sake of argument stopbush Dec 2013 #151
That they have the right to their opinion, and that the Warren commission MIGHT be wrong. Th1onein Dec 2013 #168
I think you missed the whole part about stipulating the WCR wasn't wrong. stopbush Dec 2013 #169
No, I .didn't. Even if it was completely correct, people have a right to question. Th1onein Dec 2013 #173
But to what end? What's the point of the questioning if the WCR did get it completely right? stopbush Dec 2013 #273
To what end? Does there have to be an end? Th1onein Dec 2013 #293
To whatever end they damn well like, and no, it is certainly NOT along the lines whathehell Dec 2013 #336
Still at it huh? brush Dec 2013 #172
... Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #175
Still doesn't answer all the questions . . . brush Dec 2013 #193
I don't know your age, but one thing I do know and whathehell Dec 2013 #337
Dialling what down? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #338
What do you think? whathehell Dec 2013 #339
Insufferable arrogance? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #342
Yes, that's what I said.. whathehell Dec 2013 #346
Absurd certainty? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #348
Have you ever heard of a "positivist"?...Look it up...Most consider them absurd now. whathehell Dec 2013 #350
Most people aren't actually aware of the evidence. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #352
There's no surer sign that of desperately losing an argument than name-calling. whathehell Dec 2013 #353
Name-calling? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #356
Gawd...and you're calling me an "asshole"? whathehell Dec 2013 #358
Clearly it's the latter, then. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #360
"Clearly" to you, lol?...Sorry, dear, you're the one who gave yourself away with the name calling.. whathehell Dec 2013 #363
And you're clearly a condescending twit. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #364
And you're clearly a pompous ass.. whathehell Dec 2013 #367
----- whathehell Dec 2013 #355
I generally credit people with having enough intelligence to be able to read English and understand. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #359
Lame..You just admitted to changing your spelling when you began living in the UK whathehell Dec 2013 #361
And I've been living in the UK for years. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #362
Awww.. whathehell Dec 2013 #365
My arrogance? ahaha. That's hilariously funny. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #366
I'm glad you enjoyed it.. whathehell Dec 2013 #370
Well, you've lost that dust up, Whathehell. stopbush Dec 2013 #375
I think not, stopbush.. whathehell Dec 2013 #376
Well, your "last word" didn't add any more to your argument stopbush Dec 2013 #379
Says you, and given your OP and the quality and amount of pushback you've gotten, whathehell Dec 2013 #380
You're right. I'm biased by the evidence in the JFK case. stopbush Dec 2013 #381
Yes, I'm sure you are more "evidence-based" than people like Secretary of State, John Kerry, LOL whathehell Dec 2013 #394
He said, she said. What a stupid game to play. stopbush Dec 2013 #397
Um, right...Unfortunately, you started the whole stupid thing but I'm ending it, okay? whathehell Dec 2013 #398
Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that Oswald was the lone gunman. KamaAina Dec 2013 #39
But we don't have to assume that. Howver, you are right about the other. Th1onein Dec 2013 #44
We kind of have to assume that, because all the evidence says so. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #75
It isn't an assumption--it is a FACT. duffyduff Dec 2013 #95
That authoritarian tendency is a real turn off SpcMnky Dec 2013 #89
I understand, make believe is fun! n-t Logical Dec 2013 #113
Authoritarians cannot stand a free society or an open forum. Rex Dec 2013 #200
I always wonder about people who come to our discussion board and tell us not to discuss yurbud Dec 2013 #327
Do you ever wonder where the reference to the DU dungeon came from? BootinUp Dec 2013 #331
I know where it came from. Unfortunately, we don't have one for trolls who think glib insults pass yurbud Dec 2013 #368
Your attempts to shut down discussion have and will fail. former9thward Dec 2013 #5
I think actually he is inviting discussion... The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #9
I hopeyou meant to say that a majority THINK there was a conspiracy. And by the way, it's Kool-Aid. 11 Bravo Dec 2013 #12
I deliberately spelled it like the OP did. former9thward Dec 2013 #14
This op smacks of assholery... polichick Dec 2013 #6
That's what I got from it too, someone who asserts they know better than others and criticizes any gtar100 Dec 2013 #22
No shit Doctor_J Dec 2013 #49
+ 10 Brazillion Myrina Dec 2013 #60
Yup. nt laundry_queen Dec 2013 #69
Using a JFK avatar to accentuate it, taboot. pacalo Dec 2013 #93
noi just "smacks" villager Dec 2013 #107
Ahhh, whining because he made you sad? n-t Logical Dec 2013 #114
I don't think an observation is considered "whining" LanternWaste Dec 2013 #245
He's pissed because most people ignore his propaganda now. Rex Dec 2013 #198
Indeed it does. EOTE Dec 2013 #231
Yes it does. n/t whathehell Dec 2013 #340
... Cali_Democrat Dec 2013 #7
In before "misinformationist." The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #8
As someone who for the most part supports the Warren Commission. NCTraveler Dec 2013 #10
+1 Another piece of trash to dispose of. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #15
Please no fines for cyber-littering. NCTraveler Dec 2013 #16
+1 G_j Dec 2013 #21
Most appreciated, NCT. I feel the same. pacalo Dec 2013 #178
Feel better now? Gidney N Cloyd Dec 2013 #17
You haven't stopped anything. People are allowed to have different opinions than liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #18
Well said. pacalo Dec 2013 #179
Ordering the Administration around, demanding they do what you want? Are you an admins sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #19
on ATA forum, LOTS of people share his sentiment Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #23
Three or four people on a site this big is not 'lots of people'. The rest of us, the huge majority sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #25
you have "freedom" and "liberty" disorder. Your right to say whatever you want on this site Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #28
Take it up with Skinner HangOnKids Dec 2013 #29
already have done. he was guessing the posts would die down Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #30
HaHaHaHaHa HangOnKids Dec 2013 #31
I did. If people continue to post stupid JFK conspiracy shit, I am sure moderators will be Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #35
Please do not tell me what to deal with HangOnKids Dec 2013 #37
you're welcome. any reply to you is a welcome addition to my prodigious posting count Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #38
Good to see you admitting that HangOnKids Dec 2013 #40
is it? I've seen bigger. I don't like to brag Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #42
Really? HangOnKids Dec 2013 #105
Is he still here? Rex Dec 2013 #199
Well, maybe now it's time for the rest of us, who generally have enough respect for the Admins not sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #51
I deduce from all your arble garble that you consider JFK CT a "serious issue". Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #55
Other DUers read the ATA forum, too. Still want to stand by "LOTS"? pacalo Dec 2013 #181
Comedy Gold !!! - Thanks For The Laff... WillyT Dec 2013 #26
That's some pretty big talk, coming from a person whose views BlueStreak Dec 2013 #27
very small percentage? No. Around 24% think Oswald acted along Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #45
24% is a very small percentage in my book. BlueStreak Dec 2013 #46
have fun with that. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #50
25% of Americans identified as liberal in 2012. nyquil_man Dec 2013 #391
A small minority should present their arguments as such BlueStreak Dec 2013 #395
So the small minority should act according to the wishes of the majority? nyquil_man Dec 2013 #396
are the Kool-Aid drinkers the ones who believe the governments initial positions, or the ones who di LanternWaste Dec 2013 #32
The OP Thinks They Are Kool-Ade Drinkers HangOnKids Dec 2013 #34
Oh I hope so... SidDithers Dec 2013 #41
No one in the "fact based community" has been able to explain why the Mafia wanted Oswald dead. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #43
Now who's promoting a conspiracy theory? The Warren Commission said BlueStreak Dec 2013 #47
Where is the evidence that the Mafia pushed Ruby to kill LHO? The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #48
That theory is the funniest, stupidest one of all. duffyduff Dec 2013 #58
Yes Ruby was on friendly terms with the police and sheriff's department, the Mafia wanted him to be. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #64
Do you mean like this? Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #59
Premeditation does not equal mafia conspiracy to kill LHO. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #74
Mafia informant words have been accepted before Sheeran, Valachi is just one example Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #78
That factoid is irrelevant to the case and ignores all the evidence that says LHO acted alone. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #120
The plans for JFK's Dallas trip were finalized in September, they decided to extend a one day short Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #124
Wait. What? So you are suggesting LHO acted alone? The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #131
Oswald as he stated was a patsy. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #136
Oh OK. But I don't think its the only logical answer. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #148
The driver may not have known what was in the box but the coincidence of both transportation, Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #155
I thought her name was Ruth Paine. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #162
Ruby seems to have suggested to the Warren Commission he was afraid of the Birchers: struggle4progress Dec 2013 #182
There is no record of the Birchers having killed anyone, the same can't be said for the Mafia. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #224
The first question, in evaluating whatever Ruby said, is: What did Ruby say? struggle4progress Dec 2013 #242
To the contrary while Ruby claims not to use temporary insanity as defense, De Facto that's Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #248
So we agree Ruby's main concern before the WC was his own death sentence for killing LHO struggle4progress Dec 2013 #255
Yes Ruby wanted to avoid the death sentence but he also feared for his sister's life. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #258
The Sheeran allegations are contained in a book published after Sheeran's death, allegedly reporting struggle4progress Dec 2013 #267
What about these allegations? Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #268
Dr. Werner Tuteur: Aided Survivors Of Nazi Camps (Chicago Trib | August 25, 1991|By Kenan Heise) struggle4progress Dec 2013 #282
Ruby had mental problems but he had enough political awareness to know who and what political Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #389
So what about Ruth Paine? The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #233
I don't know enough about Ruth Paine or her neighbor which gave the job recommendation to make a Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #235
So you are speculating that someone in the CIA used Ruth Paine? The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #236
It doesn't take the entirety of any of those institutions which you list, just a few elements Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #239
Seems like a lot of pieces of your puzzle do not fit together and the theory is self contradictory. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #240
Paine isn't the only one concerned about Oswald's mental state, his friend George de Mohrenschildt Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #247
Wow. You have proved the answer to the mystery is more mystery. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #250
This would the same Warren Commission which stated that Ruby didn't have a "significant link" Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #253
So if I understand you correctly you are willing to throw out all of the WCR The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #283
It wasn't just one Mafia Hitman, there was plenty of evidence linking Ruby to organized crime. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #285
Wiki says this about Ruby too. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #288
Ruby didn't have to be a "member," he was connected regardless and he knew the consequences Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #297
Not only was he not a member... The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #317
That's not what the House Select Committee and other investigations have demonstrated. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #321
de Mohrenschildt was involuntarily committed in 1976, on his wife's request: she noted then struggle4progress Dec 2013 #315
Yes and Bush the Lesser wrote him a response letter. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #320
The plans for JFK's Dallas trip weren't finalised until 18 November. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #183
Thanks for the correction, not finalized in all details but by your link September is when the plans Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #187
But the motorcade route wasn't finalised until 18 November. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #188
Once it was established in September that Kennedy's trip would be extended and that Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #225
No. The route was not a formality. DanTex Dec 2013 #229
There are only so many routes from Love Field to the Dallas Trade Mart, that was the most logical Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #237
Except the Trade Mart wasn't selected as the location until 14 November. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #252
The decision to speak to a wide venue was set in September and the Dallas Trade Mart was Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #254
... Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #256
The first paragraph makes my point, the Dallas Trade Mart was the most logical choice. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #259
The rest of it points out that Oswald was working there before any of this was decided Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #260
It makes no difference whether the assassin was placed there before the route or the Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #262
Of course it makes a difference. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #264
"Chance" brought Oswald to Dallas during the same month (September) Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #266
Oswald moved to Ft Worth on 6/14/1962 - a year and a half before he killed JFK. stopbush Dec 2013 #270
Oswald wasn't living in Texas in September of 63, he was in New Orleans since April of 63. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #274
I don't see what point you're trying to make. stopbush Dec 2013 #277
Oswald's family was brought back to Dallas in September, Oswald followed a few days later. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #280
And who "brought" Oswald's family back to Dallas? stopbush Dec 2013 #286
I was just reading her testimony regarding Oswald shooting at General Walker and she says Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #296
Job at the TSBD. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #271
I said Paine seemed credible on the video, I also said I didn't know of her neighbor Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #275
See: list of logical fallacies in previous post. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #276
There are too many connections to disregard the possibility of conpiracy. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #278
Too many connections to what exactly? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #289
Oswald didn't need to make contact days after it hit the press. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #298
And? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #300
Oswald and Marina are all that needed to know. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #303
Except those dots actually don't connect to anything. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #305
They all connect to Ruby, Oswald or their immediate connection, this Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #308
They don't, actually. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #310
Ruby's connections weren't perripheral and he didn't have to be member of organized crime Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #311
More logical fallacies Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #312
You just demonstrated by your post what we're capable of doing and yet you refuse to believe Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #313
We have evidence of all of those things. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #314
That's because those were other nations and their people, justice departments and press Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #316
And? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #319
And the evidence was destroyed, that's the point. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #322
... Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #323
If your link does anything, it supports my contention, they were concerned with who Oswald met Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #374
Except that doesn't actually point to conspiracy Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #385
We don't know what transpired in regards to Oswald's meetings in Mexico because that evidence Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #388
Except we kind of do know what transpired in regard to Oswald's meetings in Mexico Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #390
Except this part isn't true. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #392
It is true. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #393
No it isn't true. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #399
We're not talking about "the basic decision". Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #400
The actual evidence is that 2500 people were expected to attend Kennedy's Speech, this was Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #401
Again: Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #402
Again, when they met at the White House in September, they determined that JFK Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #403
Except it's nonsense Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #404
Oh for fucks sake BootinUp Dec 2013 #332
I hope you take a look at this article about who owned the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building Samantha Dec 2013 #324
That motorcade went way out of its way to put downtown on the route from Love Field struggle4progress Dec 2013 #279
If you're going to drive slow and expose the President to large number of people it is. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #281
Fifty years later, with this assassination and various assassination attempts on record, struggle4progress Dec 2013 #284
I agree, struggle4progress, but some of this was just stupid even for that day and there was Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #287
"It seems a little too convenient" Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #290
And Ruby falsely claims he thought the transfer had already taken place Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #299
How would he have known he hadn't been? It was announced for 10am. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #301
Perhaps because the police vehicle wasn't moved or perhaps because Ruby's informant told him the Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #304
Ruby owned a Strip Bar in DALLAS in 1963 fer gawds sake. bvar22 Dec 2013 #382
I guess I must be pretty f**king naive. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #387
And in regards to the security guards being removed from the door during Oswald's transport, Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #63
Uh huh. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #66
I suppose Ruby could've rented a bunk or brought his sleeping bag to the police dept. but that Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #70
Which still doesn't explain why he wasn't there when Oswald was scheduled to be transferred... Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #76
When did they announce that they would be moving Oswald in the press conference? Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #81
... Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #83
Ruby had been stalking Oswald of that, there is no dispute. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #90
Questioning by the US Postal Inspector Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #91
I'm wondering why Ruby would believe this if Oswald had already been transferred an hour before? Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #96
The assumption that Oswald had been transferred is logical... Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #98
But the crowd was still there nearly an hour afterwards, logic should tell you the transfer had not Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #109
Ruby's polygraph test is part of his testimony. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #112
No wonder they don't allow polygraph tests to be used as evidence anymore, Ruby Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #121
FFS, will this shit ever end? n-t Logical Dec 2013 #115
If there were a shred of evidence that the mafia sent Ruby to kill Oswald... DanTex Dec 2013 #118
Ruby had the best opportunity to kill Oswald he had connections and was on friendly terms with Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #122
Not remotely close to evidence that the mafia had Ruby kill Oswald. DanTex Dec 2013 #123
That's all in the eye of the beholder, I believe Ruby had more than just "loose contacts" going Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #130
Keep believing that fantasy. duffyduff Dec 2013 #132
The mob would do it if they thought this would cover up a greater crime, Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #141
Enough With The Doubleplus ungood JFK Thoughtcrime! Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #53
Yes, I've noticed. pacalo Dec 2013 #177
Yes, I've had my posts hidden by juries. stopbush Dec 2013 #383
here.... spanone Dec 2013 #61
Let's see... Believe in conspiracies or believe what our Government tells us? RC Dec 2013 #62
Therefore you must believe the moon landing was faked too! Electric Monk Dec 2013 #65
Nope. Watched it live from a TV control room. RC Dec 2013 #68
Tar with a broad brush -- aka straw man argumentation BlueStreak Dec 2013 #73
Actually, yours is the straw argument. DanTex Dec 2013 #203
"the actual evidence" BlueStreak Dec 2013 #209
Yes, actual evidence, and actual experts. DanTex Dec 2013 #215
This is the biggest argument against conspiracy, really. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #263
You forgot to mention Jackie's involvement in the plot and cover-up. stopbush Dec 2013 #272
What's wrong with believing in SOME conspiracies and believing the government sometimes stopbush Dec 2013 #108
Why are some things so black and white with some people here. RC Dec 2013 #125
Maybe just look at the evidence. You know, ballistics, witnesses, fingerprints, etc. DanTex Dec 2013 #119
After the unseal the rest of the evidence after 75 years, I'll do that. RC Dec 2013 #126
Actually, the remaining 1% of the documents will be unsealed in 2017. DanTex Dec 2013 #129
Unlike you, mind mind is not made up yet. RC Dec 2013 #135
Some of the info was sealed to protect intelligence methods/contacts. stopbush Dec 2013 #139
I wish I were so sure of shady 3rd parties with an agendas were on the up and up, as you are. RC Dec 2013 #147
And with that broad brush, you've just indicted every Democrat serving in any political position stopbush Dec 2013 #152
Teddy, Boxer, Reid HangOnKids Dec 2013 #156
Why does not Obama's campaign rhetoric agree with his governing? RC Dec 2013 #191
LOL. "I actually have a life". The "too cool for school" defense of ignorance. DanTex Dec 2013 #190
Gawd! It's such a tired whine to proclaim "unlike you, my mind isn't made up yet." stopbush Dec 2013 #377
Agreed. 2017 will be to JFk CTists what 2012 was to Mayan Calendar end timers. stopbush Dec 2013 #137
Interesting info DMessenger Dec 2013 #77
DU Seems to align with the majority of Americans SpcMnky Dec 2013 #88
Correct...About 80 percent of the American people do NOT believe the Warren commission.. whathehell Dec 2013 #341
It's such a good idea to open a discussion berating others' "fantasies" pacalo Dec 2013 #94
Sorry you can't spot a real D when you see one. stopbush Dec 2013 #110
I appreciate knowing more about your history pacalo Dec 2013 #116
I always choose the JFK avatar for Nov-Dec. It's one way of remembering him. stopbush Dec 2013 #133
It's not respectful, imo, to use his image specifically for the months pacalo Dec 2013 #145
Blah blah blah. stopbush Dec 2013 #153
Use the "hide this thread" option instead of shutting down discussion that's important to others. pacalo Dec 2013 #157
Where have I shut down any discussion? stopbush Dec 2013 #161
Your attitude is apparent in your OP. pacalo Dec 2013 #165
My OP simply asks that the CT discussions be moved back to where they once resided. stopbush Dec 2013 #167
Your OP speaks for itself. pacalo Dec 2013 #174
Oh the blah blah blah argument HangOnKids Dec 2013 #158
Nailed it HangOnKids Dec 2013 #154
From what I've seen, he makes it a point to disrupt every JFK thread, pacalo Dec 2013 #164
I have Tea Baggers and Lone Nutters in the same bag. Zen Democrat Dec 2013 #99
You know what human nature dictates? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #100
+1. Hats off to the few worthy souls pushing back the CT morons. sagat Dec 2013 #102
who are you, and what in the holy fuck makes you think you can call a majority of us morons? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #127
181 posts yet served on 96 juries? HangOnKids Dec 2013 #138
Good catch. 181 posts in 6 years, but he's deep into jurisprudence. DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #142
I'm Good HangOnKids Dec 2013 #144
You are correct. bvar22 Dec 2013 #103
That's because we have more members too young and too disinterested to care. whathehell Dec 2013 #347
To be honest I really do not stong feelings either way on who killed JFK. hrmjustin Dec 2013 #104
I guess some people just need closure elias7 Dec 2013 #106
Yes and no. DanTex Dec 2013 #117
But there are so many possibilities that have never been ruled out! For example, maybe JFK faked struggle4progress Dec 2013 #128
The problem with your little diatribe is that the difference between THIS issue and any other where sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #143
Holy McMoly! Some people are disagreeing with others on the internet! I bet they're paid by the CIA! struggle4progress Dec 2013 #171
Some people just really love to try and push other people's buttons Samantha Dec 2013 #176
Fifty years after the event, no alternative theory, supported by clear evidence, has appeared: struggle4progress Dec 2013 #184
I think Oswald participated but he was not the only sniper Samantha Dec 2013 #219
Jacqueline Kennedy told the Warren Commission she remembered hearing two shots, not four struggle4progress Dec 2013 #241
Maybe she did only remember hearing two Samantha Dec 2013 #309
She also says she first realized something was wrong when Connally began yelling, at which point struggle4progress Dec 2013 #318
You are right Samantha Dec 2013 #325
Have you ever been brave enough to watch this? BootinUp Dec 2013 #334
I am reluctant to click on this because I am not a braveheart Samantha Dec 2013 #384
This video link does not show BootinUp Dec 2013 #386
Nice! An uber-conspiracy theory. DanTex Dec 2013 #192
Why do you care, stopbush? The Magic Bullet believers post all they want. Octafish Dec 2013 #134
Bazinga! HangOnKids Dec 2013 #146
You are most welcome, HangOnKids! Octafish Dec 2013 #195
I care because people like you distort the record and spout lies about the evidence. stopbush Dec 2013 #149
Do you have children? HangOnKids Dec 2013 #159
Yep. Two of them. stopbush Dec 2013 #160
You used children as an example in one of your replies HangOnKids Dec 2013 #163
Yes. Anyone who is a parent notices the make believe mindset when it arises stopbush Dec 2013 #166
The Single Bullet Theory is just that, a THEORY. Octafish Dec 2013 #194
The theory of gravity is also just a theory... DanTex Dec 2013 #201
Sure. Octafish Dec 2013 #206
Sigh. The "magic" bullet was also deformed. DanTex Dec 2013 #211
'I think it's time to stop treating you as misinformed and start treating you as overtly dishonest.' Octafish Dec 2013 #213
You are dishonest when you introduce a bullet fired directly into DanTex Dec 2013 #216
You're the poster who got angry at me for not explaining an OP written by zappaman. Octafish Dec 2013 #217
Umm, no. I was asking you to back up your claims with evidence. DanTex Dec 2013 #218
No, it's a scientific theory, which is NOT conjecture. stopbush Dec 2013 #222
He is admitting defeat in a round about way. Rex Dec 2013 #197
Thank you, Rex. Octafish Dec 2013 #202
Authoritarians cannot stand a free society or an open forum. Rex Dec 2013 #204
Lookit what the ''authoritative'' JFK debunker John McAdams keeps on his website... Octafish Dec 2013 #208
That the Bush family funded the Nazis was a real eye opener. Rex Dec 2013 #210
lol Liberal_in_LA Dec 2013 #140
You're still at it with the etched in stone lone gunman theory? brush Dec 2013 #170
Closed minds think alike. dchill Dec 2013 #180
Have you decided the issue should be put to bed ? Wash. state Desk Jet Dec 2013 #189
So you lost, bout time you admitted defeat. Rex Dec 2013 #196
UNREC zappaman Dec 2013 #205
I hear they have no porn in Denmark. Rex Dec 2013 #214
That's because Denmark is too busy coming up with plans... zappaman Dec 2013 #221
Well good! I was getting worried the Moon people Rex Dec 2013 #223
Actually, the fervor with which any talk of alternate explanations is stomped on is very interesting djean111 Dec 2013 #207
What's worse is that those who are pathologically incapable of questioning authority whatchamacallit Dec 2013 #212
Questioning "authority" is one thing, but believing in conspiracies where NONE exist duffyduff Dec 2013 #226
It's as STUPID as ignoring the Mafia-CIA plots to KILL Castro. Octafish Dec 2013 #228
Who is ignoring those plots? The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #232
The media. Octafish Dec 2013 #234
WE are the media. We. Us. You and I in this public forum are the media. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #238
Then why not just ignore these kind of threads? Rex Dec 2013 #243
Because I like free speech. Unlike you and, apparently, the OP. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #249
You mean the Kennedy plots to kill Castro? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #265
DULLES entered into the contract with the MAFIA in 1960. Octafish Dec 2013 #291
Operation Mongoose was authorised in November 1961 by JFK. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #292
So what? JFK ordered Castro assassination program to stop. Octafish Dec 2013 #343
Funny, that isn't what Desmond FitzGerald thought Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #345
The same Desmond Fitzgerald who lied when he met Mafia-hired killer Rolando Cubela? Octafish Dec 2013 #351
Lied at the direction of Richard Helms Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #354
Colonel Oliver North said something along those very same lines to the Tower Commission. LanternWaste Dec 2013 #246
Evidence isn't authority cpwm17 Dec 2013 #227
There was no evidence because there was no chain of custody on the so-called "evidence." Zen Democrat Dec 2013 #257
Simply wrong...again. Anyone surprised? stopbush Dec 2013 #261
Who shot JFK? has been eclipsed by Pope-a-palooza...nt SidDithers Dec 2013 #220
So you believe that in-house assassinations (Indira, Benazir, Anwar, e.g.) happen only elsewhere? OK WinkyDink Dec 2013 #244
That's not an argument. The fact is Oswald did it alone as did Ruby. n/t duffyduff Dec 2013 #269
The "Two Lone Nuts" theory! Fozzledick Dec 2013 #294
I think Oswald shot JFK but I think it goes way deeper than that. Mrdrboi Dec 2013 #251
President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy Omaha Steve Dec 2013 #295
No, he wasn't. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #333
Pres. Obama recently appointed Cass R. Sunstein snot Dec 2013 #302
Full of yourself - aren't you. 840high Dec 2013 #307
so...the House Select Committee on Assassinations was filled with nuts? yurbud Dec 2013 #326
"Hello, I don't actually know what the HSCA said!" Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #328
"Hello, you don't understand our government nearly as much as you think you do", lol. whathehell Dec 2013 #349
that's a good addition, thanks. yurbud Dec 2013 #369
The general relative lack of interest in JFK and questions about the Warren Report JDPriestly Dec 2013 #335
If there was a "general lack of interest in JFK and questions about the Warren Report" I doubt whathehell Dec 2013 #344
There is PLENTY of interest in both. It's just that modern forensics duffyduff Dec 2013 #371
My theory is that Oswald did it, but that he was encouraged to do it by third parties whose JDPriestly Dec 2013 #373
My theory as well.. whathehell Dec 2013 #378
I seeeee the light! Arugula Latte Dec 2013 #357
Methodical Refutation Always Seems to Take a While On the Road Dec 2013 #372

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
185. 'War is Hell'
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:14 AM
Dec 2013
http://thetexastheatre.com/faqs/

During the Korean War, a glory-hunting sergeant leads his platoon on a mission against the enemy -- not telling them that a cease-fire has just been declared -- so that he can win medals. Trouble arises when some members of platoon begin to suspect that something is fishy
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052376/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
230. Thank you. That sounds like a dreadful movie
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:23 PM
Dec 2013

The only name I recognize from the cast is Audie Murphy, a World War II hero who became a B-movie idol after leaving the service. His main forte was westerns, I suspect because he looked like Alan Ladd.

Well, any port in a storm, I guess.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
57. Well, the OP is JFK porn
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:01 PM
Dec 2013

And what would we rather look at? Criminals getting way with murder or some good looking, basically innocent humans showing their stuff?

Being that this is a forum about politics, it is weird that some don't think discussing one of the biggest most influential politicians life and death is somehow to be shoveled off into a dungeon somewhere.

Frankly, the whining, like in the OP about the issue is like I say a form of porn and is what should be somehow covered up. But what the heck, let them whine if it makes them feel better.

Xipe Totec

(43,890 posts)
101. But he's conspiring to have the threads hidden... That's very suspicious
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:00 PM
Dec 2013

We should ask him where he was on the day JFK was assassinated. Does he have an alibi? Mmmm.....


 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
79. Put your glasses on
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:36 PM
Dec 2013

Then maybe you'll see?

We talk mainly about the changes that came forth from his death. It is the WC bible beaters that talk about the day and we just remark that they need glasses. And then the WC bible beaters whine that they see any threads about any of it. Just trust the WC bible they scream. Again, and again. It's liken unto porn.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
329. Correct..The supposed "above it all" whiners are just younger DUer's who don't remember & don't care
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:30 AM
Dec 2013

Whatever happened to just ignoring a thread you're not interested in?

BootinUp

(47,156 posts)
330. The Admins had already made the decision.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:33 AM
Dec 2013

It is relatively clear that they decided to let the natives go a little crazy for the anniversary.

Problem with that?

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
2. Despite all of the attempts to quash other opinion, the idea that Kennedy was killed by a lone
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:21 PM
Dec 2013

gunman is still questioned. I think that's important. Sorry you have a need to shut others, with different opinions, out of the discussion.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
3. People are welcome to have other opinions.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:23 PM
Dec 2013

However it's not a matter of opinion but one of fact and evidence. You can have the opinion that the earth is flat, if you want.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
11. The "facts" allowed in by the fixed WC and not shredded by the CIA over the last 50 yrs
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:30 PM
Dec 2013

I love how YOU get to decide what the facts are, based on the pronouncements of those YOU decide are reliable sources - like the corporate media and all the Posner-worshipping posters on this board.

All that this exercise has proven is that both sides disagree, even about basic "facts" like which way JFKs head and brains went - based on the Zapruder film and the testimony of those spattered by his brains.

But, I will agree that this is not a good topic for GD.

In the end, the corporate media can outlast the finite number of people who were alive at the time of the assassination and care enough to strive for justice, instead of a whitemwash. I take heart that my BS detector was operating in 1963 and continues to do so until this day.

Case closed, my ass.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
24. I don't decide what the facts are.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:51 PM
Dec 2013

The evidence does that, and evidence is completely neutral. It doesn't have a side. (By the way, the Zapruder film? Shows Kennedy's had going forward at the moment the bullet hits it, and the major direction of blood spatter as forward. Forensics and ballistics? The shots came from behind. Not possible for them to've come from anywhere else.))

arendt

(5,078 posts)
33. And which version (the infamous frame 313) of the film did you see?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:16 PM
Dec 2013

And what is your evidentiary soruce for the blood going forward, since we have testimony from a motorcycle cop riding BEHIND JFK that he (the cop) was spattered w JFK's blood and brains?

Its not a matter of just facts. Its a matter of whose facts.

If it were just facts, it would have been settled forty years ago.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
82. Ad hominem
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:40 PM
Dec 2013

care to address yourself to the evidence presented regarding what happens when a high-velocity bullet passes through human tissue?

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
87. McAdams rarely offers his opinion at his website. All he does is provide links
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:56 PM
Dec 2013

to the evidence and testimony gathered by the WC, the HSCA and others.

How does that make him a clown?

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
186. Nothing prevents both forward and backward spatter from a bullet to the back of the head:
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:20 AM
Dec 2013

depending on how exactly the head reacts with the bullet, conservation of momentum, will actually require backward spatter in some cases

And, of course, as the motorcade was moving forward, anyone immediately behind the President's car would have driven into aerosol from the spatter

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
85. Gee, how can one be sure JFK was even killed? It could have all been a huge special effect.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:53 PM
Dec 2013

After all, the government told us he was dead, and they always lie, correct?

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
13. No, it's not a matter of fact and evidence. In fact, that is disputed by many.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:32 PM
Dec 2013

We have the right to ask questions. He was OUR president, too. Those who are telling us to move along, nothing to see here, are obviously, and rightly, questioned, as to their motives.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
92. Yes, he was our president (I was 9 at the time).
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:04 PM
Dec 2013

But no amount of creative conspiratorial theorizing is going to 1. bring him back from the dead, 2. change the facts in the case, or 3. do anything tangible for the country.

At the end of the day, all the CT handwringing amounts to little more than self-aggrandizement and an elitist attitude that the CTist is in on some double-secret-probation level of info that Joe Six Pack doesn't know about. Coupled, of course, with a big sense of victimhood whenever challenged on the theories, and a distinctly smug attitude that the CTist is the knight in shining armor who is going to expose the bad guys and save the country in the process.

It's an "us v them" attitude that warms the cockles of the Roves of this world.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
150. I disagree with you.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:56 AM
Dec 2013

Whether or not it brings him back (of course it doesn't), there are many who disagree with the official version, and there are many aspects to that version which remain questionable. We have the right to question. I'm sure there are many CT mongers out there who display the attitude that you describe, but there are also many who don't, and who only are saying that there is more to this story than the official version. They have every right to express their doubts, and no one should be trying to shut them up.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
151. Let me ask you a question: if we stipulate for the sake of argument
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:58 AM
Dec 2013

that the Warren Commission got it right, what would your opinion be of the decades of CTs in this case?

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
168. That they have the right to their opinion, and that the Warren commission MIGHT be wrong.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:34 AM
Dec 2013

I would give them the benefit of the doubt. They deserve that.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
273. But to what end? What's the point of the questioning if the WCR did get it completely right?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:53 PM
Dec 2013

Just something to do because one has time on their hands?

That kind of thinking is along the lines of questioning evolution, is it not?

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
336. To whatever end they damn well like, and no, it is certainly NOT along the lines
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:51 AM
Dec 2013

of questioning evolution.

brush

(53,784 posts)
172. Still at it huh?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:43 AM
Dec 2013

Check this link about all the many mysterious deaths of people investigating the hard-to-believe lone gunman theory then see if you still "believe" it.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOpje8kixcV-skbCZOOiNIw/videos?view=0&sort=dd&live_view=500&flow=list

brush

(53,784 posts)
193. Still doesn't answer all the questions . . .
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:09 AM
Dec 2013

but whoever is behind your efforts is and has been trying very hard to have people believe in the single gun nut theory.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
337. I don't know your age, but one thing I do know and
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:22 AM
Dec 2013

that is that JFK was not your president.

With that in mind, I'd suggest you consider the wisdom of dialing it down a bit.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
338. Dialling what down?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:05 AM
Dec 2013

I never lived in NYC, either; that wouldn't stop me from calling out conspiracist cranks who insist the WTC was brought down by a controlled demolition if that sort of nonsense was allowed in this forum.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
339. What do you think?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:19 AM
Dec 2013

Call out your ass -- The only sort of "nonsense" that shouldn't be allowed here is

the insufferable arrogance of people like you, and by the way,

you might want to learn to spell: It's "dialing", not "dialling".

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
342. Insufferable arrogance?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:36 AM
Dec 2013

Where, precisely? Pointing out that something just isn't true isn't "arrogance".

(And it's "dialling". At least in British English; I live in the UK. Your ignorance is showing.)

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
346. Yes, that's what I said..
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:26 AM
Dec 2013

and to answer your question, In this instance, it's contained in your absurd certainty of what is "true",

when so many others far closer to the situation, in terms of both age and access, are NOT.

As to my supposed "ignorance", sorry dear, but to the contrary, it was precisely my LACK of ignorance that enabled

me to pick out your British "tells"....Oh do forgive my missing that "dialing" thing, lol, but then again

it's YOU who are posting on an American board, not me posting on a British one.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
348. Absurd certainty?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:33 AM
Dec 2013

Because I look at evidence?

And I'm American. My wife is British; I've lived in the UK for several years now. As I live in the UK and read British newspapers and communicate in writing with mostly British people I have necessarily adapted my spelling. As you would probably expect a Brit moving to the States to do. And if you're not ignorant then you're apparently just an asshole.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
350. Have you ever heard of a "positivist"?...Look it up...Most consider them absurd now.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:41 AM
Dec 2013

"Because I look at evidence"?

Sure, because the rest of us clearly do NOT, right?..Not even people like Secretary of State John Kerry who has

stated he DOES believe there was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination?.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
352. Most people aren't actually aware of the evidence.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:46 AM
Dec 2013

As has been repeatedly demonstrated by people saying things that just aren't true, over and over and over. (Like the canard about the HSCA finding evidence of a conspiracy...that's been debunked and isn't evidence.)

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
358. Gawd...and you're calling me an "asshole"?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:23 PM
Dec 2013

"And if you're not ignorant then you're apparently just an asshole"


 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
360. Clearly it's the latter, then.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:27 PM
Dec 2013

You'd probably do well to learn to not make things personal if you're so bothered by responses in kind.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
363. "Clearly" to you, lol?...Sorry, dear, you're the one who gave yourself away with the name calling..
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:36 PM
Dec 2013

You are "clearly" not as astute or "secure" in your intellect as you'd have others believe.

Thanks for playing.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
364. And you're clearly a condescending twit.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:42 PM
Dec 2013

You know, you started this off by calling me "insufferably arrogant". And making a frankly assholish comment about "you and people like you". Mote and beam.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
367. And you're clearly a pompous ass..
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:49 PM
Dec 2013

You started this off by BEING "insufferably arrogant"

Go tell Secretary of State Kerry he "doesn't look at evidence".

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
355. -----
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:20 PM
Dec 2013

Since you've "necessarily adapted" your spelling, you might remember that the rest of us have NOT

"necessarily" adapted ours and that you may need to "re-adapt" when you come back to America, at least virtually.

Gee, if you are not ignorant in that respect, maybe YOU are "just an asshole".

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
359. I generally credit people with having enough intelligence to be able to read English and understand.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:25 PM
Dec 2013

Apparently I'm giving some people too much credit.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
361. Lame..You just admitted to changing your spelling when you began living in the UK
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:30 PM
Dec 2013

Your problem isn't giving others "too much credit" for having intelligence, it's giving

YOURSELF too much.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
362. And I've been living in the UK for years.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:33 PM
Dec 2013

American spelling doesn't come naturally anymore. (I also say "pavement" and not "sidewalk", and "rubbish" and not "trash".) I'm not going to go out of my way to make any more effort than I have to, since people should be able to understand what I'm saying. (You presumably wouldn't be so insufferably arrogant as to expect a lifelong UK resident to start using US spellings...I hope, anyway.)

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
365. Awww..
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:43 PM
Dec 2013

"I'm not going to go out of my way to make any more effort than I have to, since people should be able to understand what I'm saying"

Really?...Fine, then you'll get more "corrections" like mine, and btw, why "should" they understand anything other than

you misspelled a word?

You're simply wrong. One can't expect someone who has not lived in the UK or it's various territories

to understand EVERY difference in spelling....Looks like your silly, unmerited arrogance is showing again.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
366. My arrogance? ahaha. That's hilariously funny.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:45 PM
Dec 2013

(And considering that the Guardian is one of the most-often cited news sources here, one presumes a majority of DUers are aware of spelling differences.)

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
379. Well, your "last word" didn't add any more to your argument
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:22 PM
Dec 2013

than did the six or seven posts that preceded it.

Treading water isn't what most people consider to be "winning."

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
380. Says you, and given your OP and the quality and amount of pushback you've gotten,
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:32 PM
Dec 2013

I wouldn't call you a "winner" or an "unbiased observer" by any means.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
381. You're right. I'm biased by the evidence in the JFK case.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:40 PM
Dec 2013

Pushback? Sticks-n-stones, luv.

One good thing about leading an evidence-informed life is that one has an easy time keeping other people's fantasies in perspective.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
394. Yes, I'm sure you are more "evidence-based" than people like Secretary of State, John Kerry, LOL
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 08:35 AM
Dec 2013

Peddle it elsewhere, luv, it seems you're not doing well here.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
397. He said, she said. What a stupid game to play.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 02:06 PM
Dec 2013

Didn't know John Kerry was involved in any of the investigations into the assassination.

BTW - I got to shake Kerry's hand back in 2004. I was living in Las Vegas and he made a campaign stop at UNLV. I brought my two kids to the rally. My daughter was 7 at the time. As we pushed forward to shake his hand, Kerry caught sight of my daughter and let out a spontaneous "a-a-a-w-w-w." It was a very human moment, a moment I wish he could have reproduced more often on the campaign trail.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
398. Um, right...Unfortunately, you started the whole stupid thing but I'm ending it, okay?
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 05:10 PM
Dec 2013

"Didn't know John Kerry was involved in any of the investigations into the assassination"?...No, I didn't know you were, either, LOL.

Forget the deliberate misunderstanding...I think you know John Kerry came out publicly and said he believed their was

a conspiracy involved in the JFK assassination, if you didn't, you do now.

I'm done here...Buh bye!

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
39. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that Oswald was the lone gunman.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:26 PM
Dec 2013

There are still plenty of questions about who might have put him up to it, mostly revolving around his life in New Orleans.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
44. But we don't have to assume that. Howver, you are right about the other.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:35 PM
Dec 2013

I'm just tired of people trying to shut others up, blecause they don't agree with the "official" version.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
75. We kind of have to assume that, because all the evidence says so.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:32 PM
Dec 2013

There's no evidence of other shooters, the recovered fragments and bullet match Oswald's rifle, ballistically, the shots came from behind. All of this points to Oswald (unless someone was on the sixth floor with Oswald's rifle). Assuming it wasn't Oswald, and wasn't Oswald's rifle, means that the conspirators planted a bullet to be found in Parkland before they could've known that another bullet, of a completely different type, might not be recovered from Kennedy's body in the autopsy (since at the point that CE399, the "single bullet", was discovered, Air Force One was still on the tarmac at Love Field, JFK's body was still in Trauma Room One, and Connally was in surgery). It also means that if the shots came from anywhere other than behind (from the Dal-Tex building, or the grassy knoll), the Zapruder film was altered to disguise the nature of Kennedy's head wound, Kennedy's body was altered or switched before the autopsy, or the autopsy photos and X-rays were faked or altered to disguise the nature of the wounds. All of this is very improbable, since Kennedy's body was under constant watch from the time it was put into the casket and placed aboard Air Force One to the time it arrived at Bethesda, and the original of the Zapruder film was in Abraham Zapruder's possession (he gave two copies to the Secret Service and FBI), until he transmitted it to the representative of Time-Life who bought the rights from him (and the original and the copies are identical).

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
95. It isn't an assumption--it is a FACT.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:18 PM
Dec 2013

Clay Shaw had nothing to do with the assassination, and nobody other than Oswald did, either.

Oliver Stone is a liar.

BootinUp

(47,156 posts)
331. Do you ever wonder where the reference to the DU dungeon came from?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:34 AM
Dec 2013

Take as much time as you need.

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
368. I know where it came from. Unfortunately, we don't have one for trolls who think glib insults pass
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:49 PM
Dec 2013

for evidence.

former9thward

(32,016 posts)
5. Your attempts to shut down discussion have and will fail.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:25 PM
Dec 2013

Every poll taken both here in DU and in the American public as a whole shows a substantial majority know there was a conspiracy. Look in your kitchen, you will find plenty of Kool-Ade.

gtar100

(4,192 posts)
22. That's what I got from it too, someone who asserts they know better than others and criticizes any
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:46 PM
Dec 2013

disagreement with subtle and not so subtle put-downs. I guess the certainty that comes with knowing all the answers is comforting, somehow.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
245. I don't think an observation is considered "whining"
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 07:09 PM
Dec 2013

I don't think an observation is considered "whining"... regardless of how self-satisfying pretending otherwise may be to you.

(Six of one, half a dozen of the other... insert rationalization here)

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
198. He's pissed because most people ignore his propaganda now.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:30 AM
Dec 2013

This last attempt at grandstanding is pathetic, but predictable.

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
231. Indeed it does.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:35 PM
Dec 2013

And the subtext is "Just read all the bullshit that I read and someday you, too can become informed like me! Until then, just shut up so I don't have to hear opposing views!"

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
10. As someone who for the most part supports the Warren Commission.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:29 PM
Dec 2013

Your op stinks to high heaven. Very condescending and more aggressive than any CT poster I have seen. What were you thinking when you posted this op. "I am going to post an op about the discussion on du about JFK, without saying anything about it, all while attacking members of du". This is as meta as meta gets. Nothing about your op spells "progress".

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
15. +1 Another piece of trash to dispose of.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:35 PM
Dec 2013

Perhaps a fine for cyber-littering, or abuse of pixels could be implemented?

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
18. You haven't stopped anything. People are allowed to have different opinions than
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:41 PM
Dec 2013

yourself. I am in my late 30's and have not really studied up on the JFK issue, but if there is one thing the whole NSA thing has taught me about our government is we cannot trust it. I don't know if there was another shooter or a different shooter or if there was a government cover up, but I certainly wouldn't put it past our government that is for sure.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
19. Ordering the Administration around, demanding they do what you want? Are you an admins
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:42 PM
Dec 2013

of this site, do you have some financial interest in it??

Sorry people are not interested in your opinions on the JFK assassination, it happens. The admins provided you with ways to not even see things you don't agree with. Try using them rather than throwing temper tantrums and making demands you have no right to make.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
23. on ATA forum, LOTS of people share his sentiment
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:50 PM
Dec 2013

so....I find it to be an entirely appropriate post.

The question is...where was Hugo Chavez on November 22, 1963?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
25. Three or four people on a site this big is not 'lots of people'. The rest of us, the huge majority
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:54 PM
Dec 2013

go running to the ACA whining about every little thing that bothers us. But maybe we should, maybe all those of us who are sick to death of the bullies here who demand this site be run THEIR WAY, and you would see just what a minority you few people who do run around telling tales, throwing temper tantrums to try to control the site, really are here.

Use the tools you were provided with. Your need to control what everyone else does here or reads or posts, is disturbing frankly.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
28. you have "freedom" and "liberty" disorder. Your right to say whatever you want on this site
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:59 PM
Dec 2013

does not in any way mean the rest of us are forbidden from stating our opinion that some subjects should be off the GD page.

Besides, according to your brothers in arms, maybe half the usernames are sock puppets being run by malignant corporations.

 

HangOnKids

(4,291 posts)
29. Take it up with Skinner
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:04 PM
Dec 2013

The GD page and the rest of the site belongs to him. I'm sure during your many posts of each and every day you could find the time to contact him.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
35. I did. If people continue to post stupid JFK conspiracy shit, I am sure moderators will be
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:18 PM
Dec 2013

instructed to move/lock them from GD.

I at least made my thoughts known to the admins. So deal with that.

 

HangOnKids

(4,291 posts)
105. Really?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:07 PM
Dec 2013

Knock yourself out PW. You must have me confused with someone who gives a shit. I have very good eyes.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
51. Well, maybe now it's time for the rest of us, who generally have enough respect for the Admins not
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:57 PM
Dec 2013

bother them with this petty garbage, to go register OUR views on the subject. The problem is that if all those who disagree with YOU were to do that, there would be hundreds of posts in ACA and their time would be selfishly taken up trying to deal with them.

Maybe if YOU stopped posting stupid JFK conspiracy shit, such as the WC got it right eg, a theory a huge majority totally disagrees with and always has, and simply trashed the threads you don't want to see, you DON'T HAVE TO SEE THEM and you can do that all on your own without help from the Admins, you wouldn't be aggravating yourself, taking up the admins time, annoying everyone else trying to control them and DU could go on doing what it does best, talking about SERIOUS issues rather than what bothers one or two people.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
27. That's some pretty big talk, coming from a person whose views
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:58 PM
Dec 2013

are shared by a very small percentage of the American public. I respect your right to believe any authoritarian nonsense you want to, but not to bully other people into silence.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
45. very small percentage? No. Around 24% think Oswald acted along
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:39 PM
Dec 2013

and 16% are unsure enough to not stake out a position.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-continued-belief-in-jfk-conspiracy/

according to ABC poll only a slight majority believe in a second shooter.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129304


 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
46. 24% is a very small percentage in my book.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:44 PM
Dec 2013

I'd wager about that many Americans believe the moon casts off its own light, based on the reception Bill Nye got in Texas.

You guys talk like you know something. You don't. You only know what the Warren Commission allowed to get out. If that is sufficient for your intellectual curiosity, that is your choice. For most of us, it is not sufficient.

nyquil_man

(1,443 posts)
391. 25% of Americans identified as liberal in 2012.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 02:29 AM
Dec 2013

I'm not sure the "24% is a very small percentage" argument is the one you want to use.

Suggesting that any group, which doesn't meet your size standard, shouldn't engage in what you consider "big talk" sets a horrible precedent.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
395. A small minority should present their arguments as such
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 10:41 AM
Dec 2013

rather than trying to bully the majority with insults and promotion of their pseudo-facts while dismissing everyone else as "conspiracy theorists."

I absolutely support the right of those who see nothing wrong with the Warren Commission to hold that belief and say so. I don't think it reflects very well on their critical thinking skills or sense of American history, bit it is what it is.

nyquil_man

(1,443 posts)
396. So the small minority should act according to the wishes of the majority?
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 11:18 AM
Dec 2013

I see.

It's sweet that you respect their right to exist.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
32. are the Kool-Aid drinkers the ones who believe the governments initial positions, or the ones who di
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:14 PM
Dec 2013

I always get confused on this one... are the Kool-Aid drinkers the ones who believe the governments initial positions, or the ones who disagree with the government position?

Or (and I find this more likely... and more accurate) is calling someone a "Kool-Aid drinker" merely a way to minimize those who may disagree with our own position? (Insert rationalization here...)

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
41. Oh I hope so...
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:28 PM
Dec 2013

I've seen Hosts actually locking gun posts and Pope posts over the last couple of days.

Maybe they'll remember that the SOP also says "no conspiracy theories" too.

Sid

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
43. No one in the "fact based community" has been able to explain why the Mafia wanted Oswald dead.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:32 PM
Dec 2013

The Mafia hated JFK because of RFK's aggressive prosecution against them.

The only logical explanation for the Mafia pushing Ruby to kill Oswald is because they thought the killer of JFK had incriminating evidence against them, that's just basic common sense.

Thanks for the thread, stopbush.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
47. Now who's promoting a conspiracy theory? The Warren Commission said
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:48 PM
Dec 2013

that Ruby, like Oswald, acted alone.

So evidently you don't entirely agree with the Warren Commission. Welcome to the club. Most of us find at least part of the findings impossible to accept at face value.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
58. That theory is the funniest, stupidest one of all.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:01 PM
Dec 2013

Sure, the mafia would send a mentally unbalanced hitman to go into a police station and kill somebody he never met to "silence" him while leaving his beloved dachshund in the car.

The CTers forget that Jack Ruby was on friendly terms with many in the police department and was even seen on camera the day before he killed Oswald. The police didn't think anything was amiss with Ruby because he always hung out there.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
64. Yes Ruby was on friendly terms with the police and sheriff's department, the Mafia wanted him to be.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:15 PM
Dec 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Howard P. Willens — the third highest official in the Department of Justice and assistant counsel to J. Lee Rankin — helped organize the Warren Commission. Willens also outlined the Commission's investigative priorities and terminated an investigation of Ruby's Cuban related activities. An FBI report states that Willens's father had been Tony Accardo's next door neighbor going back to 1958. In 1946, Tony Accardo allegedly asked Jack Ruby to go to Texas with Mafia associates Pat Manno and Romie Nappi to make sure that Dallas County Sheriff Steve Gutherie would acquiesce to the Mafia’s expansion into Dallas.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
59. Do you mean like this?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:03 PM
Dec 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

The House Select Committee on Assassinations in its 1979 Final Report opined:

…Ruby's shooting of Oswald was not a spontaneous act, in that it involved at least some premeditation. Similarly, the committee believed it was less likely that Ruby entered the police basement without assistance, even though the assistance may have been provided with no knowledge of Ruby's intentions… The committee was troubled by the apparently unlocked doors along the stairway route and the removal of security guards from the area of the garage nearest the stairway shortly before the shooting… There is also evidence that the Dallas Police Department withheld relevant information from the Warren Commission concerning Ruby's entry to the scene of the Oswald transfer.[60][/]

(snip)

Another motive was put forth by Frank Sheeran, allegedly a hitman for the Mafia, in a conversation he had with the then-former Teamsters boss Jimmy Hoffa. During the conversation, Hoffa claimed that Ruby was assigned[by whom?] the task of coordinating police officers who were loyal to Ruby to murder Oswald while he was in their custody. As Ruby evidently mismanaged the operation, he was given a choice[by whom?] to either finish the job himself or forfeit his life.[64]



The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
74. Premeditation does not equal mafia conspiracy to kill LHO.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:29 PM
Dec 2013

And alleged mafia hitmen should be taken for their word.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
78. Mafia informant words have been accepted before Sheeran, Valachi is just one example
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:36 PM
Dec 2013

there are more on the link.



http://www.history.com/news/famous-gangster-informants-in-u-s-history

Joe Valachi

In 1963, convicted New York mobster Valachi broke the Mafia’s sacred code of silence to become an informant, revealing key details about the organization’s structure and customs. The first member to publicly acknowledge the existence of the American Mafia, he later published his memoirs, entitled “The Valachi Papers,” about his years as a low-ranking soldier for the Lucchese and Genovese crime families. Though Valachi’s motives for telling all remain unclear, he may have spilled the beans to avoid the death penalty for a murder he committed while incarcerated. Valachi died in prison in 1971 with a $100,000 mob bounty still on his head.





The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
120. That factoid is irrelevant to the case and ignores all the evidence that says LHO acted alone.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:16 PM
Dec 2013

Where is the evidence that says Ruby acted on the mafias behalf? Speculation is not evidence.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
124. The plans for JFK's Dallas trip were finalized in September, they decided to extend a one day short
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:42 PM
Dec 2013

trip into two days, wanting the President to speak at a wider venue, the Dallas Trade Mart would be a most logical choice.

September is the same time that Ruth Paine picked Oswald's wife and child up driving them back to Dallas from New Orleans, Oswald would follow shortly after.

The same Ruth Paine informed Oswald about the job opening at the Texas School Book Depository.

Oswald had two jobs in Dallas prior to this before he left for New Orleans, but his work attitude was poor, quitting one job after three months and getting fired from the other. He attitude regarding his job at the TSD was a 180 degrees different, he didn't want to lose that job or get fired.

He had bigger fish to fry.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_harvey_oswald

In July 1962, Oswald was hired by Dallas' Leslie Welding Company; he disliked the work and quit after three months. In October, he was hired by the graphic-arts firm of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as a photoprint trainee. A fellow employee at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall testified that Oswald's rudeness at his new job was such that fights threatened to break out, and that he once saw Oswald reading a Russian language publication.[76] [n 6] Oswald was fired during the first week of April 1963.[77] Some have suggested that Oswald might have used equipment at the firm to forge identification documents.[78][79]

(snip)

Marina's friend, Ruth Paine, transported Marina and her child by car from New Orleans to the Paine home in Irving, Texas, near Dallas, on September 23, 1963.[103][142] Oswald stayed in New Orleans at least two more days to collect a $33 unemployment check. It is uncertain when he left New Orleans; he is next known to have boarded a bus in Houston on September 26—bound for the Mexican border, rather than Dallas—and to have told other bus passengers that he planned to travel to Cuba via Mexico.[143][144] He arrived in Mexico City on September 27, where he applied for a transit visa at the Cuban Embassy,[145] claiming he wanted to visit Cuba on his way to the Soviet Union. The Cuban embassy officials insisted Oswald would need Soviet approval, but he was unable to get prompt co-operation from the Soviet embassy.

(snip)

On October 2, 1963, Oswald left Mexico City by bus and arrived in Dallas the next day. Ruth Paine said that her neighbor told her, on October 14, that there was a job opening at the Texas School Book Depository, where her neighbor's brother, Wesley Frazier, worked. Mrs. Paine informed Oswald who was interviewed at the Depository and was hired there on October 16.[151] Oswald's supervisor Roy Truly, said that Oswald "did a good day's work" and was an above average employee.[152][153] During the week, Oswald stayed in a Dallas rooming house (under the name "O.H. Lee&quot ,[154] but he spent his weekends with Marina at the Paine home in Irving. Oswald did not drive, but commuted to and from Dallas on Mondays and Fridays with his co-worker Wesley Frazier. On October 20, the Oswalds' second daughter Audrey was born.



No doubt the timing and work attitude change was just cosmic, as for Ruby, I already posted Sheeran's statment, you just decided to reject it.







The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
131. Wait. What? So you are suggesting LHO acted alone?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:09 AM
Dec 2013

Based on one person's comments that he "did a good day's work" and was above average at the TBSD.

Is Ruth Paine in on it too?

I thought you said the mafia did it.

Is Wesley Frazier the same guy who saw LHO take the "curtain rods" to work the day of the murder?

You argument is so disjointed I do not even know where you are coming from.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
136. Oswald as he stated was a patsy.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:30 AM
Dec 2013


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patsy?s=t

noun, plural pat·sies. Slang.
1. a person who is easily swindled, deceived, coerced, persuaded, etc.; sucker.
2. a person upon whom the blame for something falls; scapegoat; fall guy.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_harvey_oswald

Soon after his capture Oswald encountered reporters in a hallway. Oswald declared, "I didn't shoot anybody" and, "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy!" Later, at an arranged press meeting, a reporter asked, "Did you kill the President?" and Oswald—who by that time had been advised of the charge of murdering Tippit, but had not yet been arraigned in Kennedy's death—answered, "No, I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question." As he was led from the room the question was called out, "What did you do in Russia?" and, "How did you hurt your eye?"; Oswald answered, "A policeman hit me."[207][208][209]



I believe Oswald was a if not the gunman but I also believe he was placed in that position for a reason and that was to kill the President.

Ruth Paine is an interesting question, I would like to have more information on her connections.

The Mafia wanted Oswald dead, as per hitman Sheeran's statement, now cosidering that the Mafia hated JFK, why would they want his killer to be killed?

The only logical answer is that Oswald had some form of incriminating evidence against them or they were afraid of his potential testimony in a court of law.

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
148. Oh OK. But I don't think its the only logical answer.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:52 AM
Dec 2013

There is a lot of physical evidence that points to LHO as the lone shooter to account for if we are to believe he was truly a patsy. Like the guy that drove him to work that day and saw LHO with the box of curtain rods with that paper wrapper for it later found with his fingerprints and t-shirt fibers on it. And his palm prints on the rifle. And the pictures of him holding the rifle that Marina took. And I do not think Ruth was in on it. Based on the gathered evidence and testimony I think it is more logical that LHO was a wife beater and a dangerous and violent person. He was a USMC trained marksman with access to a cheap rifle and I think fired those 3 shots that day. He was killed by a another known violent and mentally tormented criminal who owned a sleazy Texas strip club.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
155. The driver may not have known what was in the box but the coincidence of both transportation,
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:06 AM
Dec 2013

influence to move back to Dallas and the job information re: the TSBD by Ruth Lane immediately after the Dallas Presidential plans were formed seems to much of a long shot, no pun intended to just be coincidence.

As for Ruby he had too many Mafia connections to bosses; whom had earlier stated that they wanted the President killed.

Ruby was afraid for his own life and that of this sister's family as well, that's all it would take to convince him to kill Oswald and keep his mouth shut.




http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/ruby_j1.htm

Mr. RUBY. Gentlemen, my life is in danger here. Not with my guilty plea of execution.

(snip)

Mr. RUBY. I tell you, gentlemen, my whole family is in jeopardy. My sisters, as to their lives.

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
162. I thought her name was Ruth Paine.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:20 AM
Dec 2013

So you are saying she was in on it. I thought she learned about the TBSD job from a neighbor. Was the neighbor in on it too you suppose?.

Here are some recent interviews with Ruth. Nice lady. She doesn't seem the mafia type. CIA type neither.

ETA She does, however, make statements about Oswald's deteriorating mental condition toward the end.




struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
182. Ruby seems to have suggested to the Warren Commission he was afraid of the Birchers:
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:27 AM
Dec 2013
Mr. RUBY ... But through certain falsehoods that have been said about me to other people, the John Birch Society, I am as good as guilty as the accused assassin of President Kennedy ...

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
224. There is no record of the Birchers having killed anyone, the same can't be said for the Mafia.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:30 PM
Dec 2013

Furthermore the Birchers were an anti-Communist Organization, Oswald was considered a Communist of sorts, they were also against "big government" so the killing of Kennedy would not give them motivation to retaliate against Ruby.

They would have no motivation to kill Ruby or his family for killing Oswald, on the other hand Ruby couldn't very come out and say he was afraid of the Underworld or Mafia without implicating them in JFK's Assassination, Ruby was afraid but not of the Birchers.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

The John Birch Society (JBS) is an American political advocacy group that supports anti-communism, limited government, a constitutional republic[1][2] .[3][4][5] It has been described as radical right-wing.[6][7]



struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
242. The first question, in evaluating whatever Ruby said, is: What did Ruby say?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 06:26 PM
Dec 2013

If you read his Warren Commission testimony, it's not entirely clear exactly who he's saying he fears, until one reaches the passage I quoted in #182

If you don't regard Ruby as credible, that's really fine with me: none of my views pivot on Ruby's credibility. On the other hand, you seem to want us to take a few snippets from Ruby's testimony, as evidence that he was somehow in fear of some mafia -- but Ruby never said anything like that: what he actually said was that he was afraid of the Birchers

It's simply impossible to make any sense of testimony if one ignores context. In your #155, you not only ignore the immediate context of Ruby's other testimony that day, but you also completely ignore an external context that sheds light on Ruby's statements. When, for example, we read

Mr. RUBY. Gentlemen, my life is in danger here. Not with my guilty plea of execution.

what exactly is Ruby talking about? On 14 March 64, Ruby was sentenced to death for the pre-meditated murder of LHO. convicted of murder with malice, for which he received a death sentence. The most natural guess is that the prospect of execution was high in Ruby's mind when he gave his Warren Commission testimony a few months later on 7 June 64, since he was eager to discuss his trial with the Commission:

Mr. RUBY. ... Mr. Belli evidently did not go into my case thoroughly, circumstantially. If he had gone into it, he wouldn't have tried to vindicate me on an insanity plea to relieve me of all responsibility, because circumstantially everything looks so bad for me. It can happen--it happens to many people who happen to be at the wrong place at the right time. Had Mr. Belli spent more time with me, he would have realized not to try to get me out completely free; at the time we are talking, technically, how attorneys operate.
Chief Justice WARREN. I understand.
Mr. RUBY. Different things came up, flashed back into my mind, that it dirtied my background, that Mr. Belli and I decided--oh yes, when I went to say that I wanted to get on the stand and tell the truth what happened that morning, he said, "Jack, when they get you on the stand, you are actually speaking of a premeditated crime that you involved yourself in." But I didn't care, because I wanted to tell the truth. He said, "When the prosecution gets you on the stand, they will cut you to ribbons." So naturally, I had to retract, and he fought his way to try to vindicate me out of this particular crime.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
248. To the contrary while Ruby claims not to use temporary insanity as defense, De Facto that's
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 07:45 PM
Dec 2013

what he was doing in his testimony to the Warren Commission.

He was attempting to use the excuse of preventing Jaqueline Kennedy from having to testify, that would be a basis for temporary insanity.

Ruby kept talking about his high emotional state over the loss of our "beloved President."

When the issue of premeditation came up, Ruby was splittiing so many hairs as to precisely when he decided to kill Oswald during his lie detector testimony as to avoid a judgment based on premeditation.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Ruby's explanation for killing Oswald would be "exposed … as a fabricated legal ploy", according to the House Select Committee on Assassinations. In a private note to one of his attorneys, Joseph Tonahill, Ruby wrote: "Joe, you should know this. My first lawyer Tom Howard told me to say that I shot Oswald so that Caroline and Mrs. Kennedy wouldn't have to come to Dallas to testify. OK?"[48][62][63]

Another motive was put forth by Frank Sheeran, allegedly a hitman for the Mafia, in a conversation he had with the then-former Teamsters boss Jimmy Hoffa. During the conversation, Hoffa claimed that Ruby was assigned[by whom?] the task of coordinating police officers who were loyal to Ruby to murder Oswald while he was in their custody. As Ruby evidently mismanaged the operation, he was given a choice[by whom?] to either finish the job himself or forfeit his life.[64]



Ruby was in fear not just for his own life but for his sister and her family, the state couldn't execute them, but the Mafia could and Ruby was in an excellent position to know it.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
258. Yes Ruby wanted to avoid the death sentence but he also feared for his sister's life.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:24 PM
Dec 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Another motive was put forth by Frank Sheeran, allegedly a hitman for the Mafia, in a conversation he had with the then-former Teamsters boss Jimmy Hoffa. During the conversation, Hoffa claimed that Ruby was assigned[by whom?] the task of coordinating police officers who were loyal to Ruby to murder Oswald while he was in their custody. As Ruby evidently mismanaged the operation, he was given a choice[by whom?] to either finish the job himself or forfeit his life.[64]

(snip)

After his arrest, Ruby asked Dallas attorney Tom Howard to represent him. Howard accepted and asked Ruby if he could think of anything that might damage his defense. Ruby responded that there would be a problem if a man by the name of "Davis" should come up. Ruby told his attorney that he "…had been involved with Davis, who was a gunrunner entangled in anti-Castro efforts."[67][68] Davis was identified years later — after research by journalist Seth Kantor — as being Thomas Eli Davis III, a CIA-connected "soldier of fortune."[69][70]




Now if Frank Sheeran is to be believed, that was the plan all along, Ruby would kill Oswald and plead insanity if not overtly then De Facto doing so.

Ruby was in a great position to do the job for the Mafia because he had connections to both the Mafia, the Dallas Police Department and perhaps the CIA.

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
267. The Sheeran allegations are contained in a book published after Sheeran's death, allegedly reporting
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:24 PM
Dec 2013

claims made by Sheeran's many decades after Hoffa's disappearance: there's nothing immediately verifiable there

Kantor's alleged identification of the person "Davis," whom Kantor claimed Ruby discussed with attorney Howard, was published in 1978, five years after Kantor says Davis died and more than ten years after Tom Howard's death in 1965: there's nothing immediately verifiable there, either



Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
268. What about these allegations?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:37 PM
Dec 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Dallas Deputy Sheriff Al Maddox claimed: "Ruby told me, he said, 'Well, they injected me for a cold.' He said it was cancer cells. That's what he told me, Ruby did. I said you don't believe that bullshit. He said, 'I damn sure do!' [Then] one day when I started to leave, Ruby shook hands with me and I could feel a piece of paper in his palm… [In this note] he said it was a conspiracy and he said … if you will keep your eyes open and your mouth shut, you're gonna learn a lot. And that was the last letter I ever got from him."[74] Not long before Ruby died, according to an article in the London Sunday Times, he told psychiatrist Werner Teuter that the assassination was "an act of overthrowing the government" and that he knew "who had President Kennedy killed." He added: "I am doomed. I do not want to die. But I am not insane. I was framed to kill Oswald."[74][75][76]

(snip)

Eventually, the appellate court agreed with Ruby's lawyers for a new trial, and on October 5, 1966, ruled that his motion for a change of venue before the original trial court should have been granted. Ruby's conviction and death sentence were overturned. Arrangements were underway for a new trial to be held in February 1967 in Wichita Falls, Texas, when on December 9, 1966, Ruby was admitted to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, suffering from pneumonia. A day later, doctors realized he had cancer in his liver, lungs, and brain. Three weeks later, he died.





struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
282. Dr. Werner Tuteur: Aided Survivors Of Nazi Camps (Chicago Trib | August 25, 1991|By Kenan Heise)
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:17 PM
Dec 2013
Dr. Werner Tuteur, 80, a forensic psychiatrist ... died Wednesday at home ... After the war, he worked extensively in Europe with Jewish survivors of concentration camps there. In the 1950s and 1960s, Dr. Tuteur was clinical director of Elgin State Hospital ... Dr. Tuteur appeared both for the prosecution and defense in examining the sanity of people facing trial. He was a consultant to the U.S. District Court in Chicago and was asked to study Dallas nightclub owner Jack Ruby, who killed Lee Harvey Oswald ... Dr. Tuteur spent five hours with Ruby and concluded that he held paranoid beliefs ...
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-08-25/news/9103030414_1_nazi-camps-survivors-four-grandchildren

If you want to cite Tuteur, you may as well report his actual conclusions: he seems to have had experience both with people who had suffered real persecution and people who imagined being persecuted, and he doesn't seem to have believed Ruby's notions were founded in reality

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
389. Ruby had mental problems but he had enough political awareness to know who and what political
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 02:02 AM
Dec 2013

parties stood for.

He knew Oswald was a professed Communist, and he knew the Birchers were radical right wing anti-Communists, they could care less if he killed Oswald.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Ruby (also known as "Sparky," from his boxing nickname "Sparkling Ruby"[51]) was seen in the halls of the Dallas Police Headquarters on several occasions after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963; and newsreel footage from WFAA-TV (Dallas) and NBC shows Ruby impersonating a newspaper reporter during a press conference at Dallas Police Headquarters on the night of the assassination.[52] District Attorney Henry Wade briefed reporters at the press conference telling them that Lee Oswald was a member of the anti-Castro Free Cuba Committee. Ruby was one of several people there who spoke up to correct Wade, saying: "Henry, that's the Fair Play for Cuba Committee," a pro-Castro organization.[53][54][55] Some speculate that Ruby may have hoped to kill Oswald that night at the police station press conference. Ruby told the FBI, a month after his arrest for killing Oswald, that he had his loaded snub-nosed Colt Cobra .38 revolver in his right-hand pocket during the press conference.[56][57][58]




The Birchers were also against "big government" and Ruby knew JFK was a Democrat that believed government could solve problems, so there was no overwhelming reason for him to believe the Birchers would come after him or his sister.

As I stated above there is no record of the Birchers killing anybody, the same can't be said for the Mafia and Ruby was intimately connected to them, he knew what the Mafia was capable of.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Ruby was known to have been acquainted with both the police and the Mafia. The HSCA said that Ruby had known Chicago mobster Sam Giancana (1908-1975) and Joseph Campisi (1918–1990) since 1947, and had been seen with them on many occasions.[14][15] After an investigation of Joe Campisi, the HSCA found:

While Campisi's technical characterization in federal law enforcement records as an organized crime member has ranged from definite to suspected to negative, it is clear that he was an associate or friend of many Dallas-based organized crime members, particularly Joseph Civello, during the time he was the head of the Dallas organization. There was no indication that Campisi had engaged in any specific organized crime-related activities.[16]

Similarly, a PBS Frontline investigation into the connections between Ruby and Dallas organized crime figures reported the following:

In 1963, Sam and Joe Campisi were leading figures in the Dallas underworld. Jack knew the Campisis and had been seen with them on many occasions. The Campisis were lieutenants of Carlos Marcello, the Mafia boss who had reportedly talked of killing the President.[17]

A day before Kennedy was assassinated, Ruby went to Joe Campisi's restaurant.[18] At the time of the Kennedy assassination, Ruby was close enough to the Campisis to ask them to come see him after he was arrested for shooting Lee Oswald.[19][20][21]



Ruby was afraid but he also had the sense to know he couldn't well state that his fear was based on the Mafia without fingering them and possibly bringing repercussions against him and/or his sister.

So he had to come up with some B.S. about the Birchers.

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
233. So what about Ruth Paine?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:45 PM
Dec 2013

It seems for your theory to be true Ruth, and her neighbor, had to be CIA or mafia in order to get LHO that job at the TSBD.

It if the driver may have known about the gun in the curtain rod bag, isn't he in on it too?

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
235. I don't know enough about Ruth Paine or her neighbor which gave the job recommendation to make a
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 05:01 PM
Dec 2013

definitive decision, it's possible she was used as well, she seems credible in her videos.

However elements in the CIA knew about Oswald and his associates.

I don't know whether this driver knew there was a gun in the bag, do you?

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
236. So you are speculating that someone in the CIA used Ruth Paine?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 05:07 PM
Dec 2013

She is a patsy too? I wonder why the mafia or CIA did not kill her too.

I do not think the driver knew what was in the bag, but you said he may have, which would make him in on it too, along with the and Dallas Police, or CIA and or the mafia.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
239. It doesn't take the entirety of any of those institutions which you list, just a few elements
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 05:18 PM
Dec 2013

within to form and complete a conspiracy.

Ruby had connections to two of those critical elements, the Mafia and the Dallas Police.

Oswald at least on the periphery had connections to the CIA, at the very least they were aware of him.



The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
240. Seems like a lot of pieces of your puzzle do not fit together and the theory is self contradictory.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 05:40 PM
Dec 2013

Either Paine and her neighbor were in on it or they were duped and you are unsure if it was elements of the CIA, DPD or the mafia and I have not seen convincing proof for how that could have happened. On the other hand, Paine convincingly talks about Oswald's fantasies and asshole personality.

Because Ruby had connections with the mafia and the Dallas Police that is not convincing evidence of a mafia hit on LHO.

And lastly we must believe Oswald was a patsy based on the evidence that he says so.

It seems a weak case in light of all the forensic and ballistic evidence.

Not to mention the rouge elements of those institutions would have to keep it secret for all these years.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
247. Paine isn't the only one concerned about Oswald's mental state, his friend George de Mohrenschildt
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 07:32 PM
Dec 2013

believed as much and he passed this information on to the CIA.

There are many cosmic connections to this puzzle



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_de_Mohrenschildt

Lee Harvey Oswald and his Russian-born wife Marina Oswald were introduced to de Mohrenschildt in the summer of 1962 in Fort Worth, Texas. De Mohrenschildt had heard of the Oswalds from one of the Russian-speaking group of émigrés in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. George and Jeanne befriended them, tried to help them as best they could, and introduced them to the Russian community in Dallas. In his Warren Commission testimony in 1964, de Mohrenschildt stated that he believed he had discussed Oswald with J. Walton Moore, who de Mohrenschildt described as "a Government man — either FBI or Central Intelligence",[28][29] and who had debriefed de Mohrenschildt several times following de Mohrenschildt's travels abroad, starting in 1957.[29][30] (According to a CIA classified document, obtained by House Select Committee on Assassinations, J. Walton Moore was an agent of the CIA's Domestic Contacts Division in Dallas.)[29] De Mohrenschildt asserted that shortly after meeting Oswald, he asked Moore and Fort Worth attorney Max E. Clark about Oswald to reassure himself that it was "safe" for the de Mohrenschildts to assist Oswald. De Mohrenschildt testified that one of the persons he talked to about Oswald told him that Oswald "seems to be OK," and that "he is a harmless lunatic." However, de Mohrenschildt was not exactly sure who it was who told him this.[31] (When interviewed in 1978 by the House Select Committee on Assassinations, J. Walton Moore denied that de Mohrenschildt had asked for his permission to contact Oswald.)[29] (During this period, tens of thousands of American citizens were routinely debriefed by the CIA after traveling to countries such as Yugoslavia, as de Mohrenschildt was.)[32]

(snip)

On April 14, 1963, George de Mohrenschildt and his wife, Jeanne visited the Oswalds' apartment. As Oswald's wife, Marina was showing Jeanne around the apartment, they discovered Oswald's rifle leaning against the wall inside a closet. Jeanne told George that Oswald had a rifle, and George joked to Oswald, "Were you the one who took a pot-shot at General Walker?" (General Edwin Walker was a conservative activist who George de Mohrenschildt said he "knew that Oswald disliked.&quot [34] When later asked by the Warren Commission about Oswald's reaction to his question, George de Mohrenschildt said that Oswald "smiled at that."[35] The Warren Commission concluded that on April 10, 1963, Oswald had attempted to kill General Walker.[36]

(snip)

On September 17, 1976, the CIA requested that the FBI locate de Mohrenschildt, because he had "attempted to get in touch with the CIA Director."[42] On September 5, 1976, De Mohrenschildt had written a letter to the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, George H. W. Bush asking for his assistance. He was acquainted with the Bush family; George H. W. Bush had roomed with de Mohrenschildt's nephew, Edward G. Hooker, at Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts.[43] The letter said:

(snip)

On March 16, 1977, de Mohrenschildt returned to the United States from his trip. His daughter talked with him at length and found him to be deeply disturbed about certain matters and had expressed a desire to commit suicide. On March 29, De Mohrenschildt gave an interview to author Edward Jay Epstein, during which he claimed that in 1962, Dallas CIA operative J. Walton Moore had given him the go-ahead to meet Oswald. "I would never have contacted Oswald in a million years if Moore had not sanctioned it," de Mohrenschildt said. "Too much was at stake."[49] On the same day as the Epstein interview, de Mohrenschildt received a business card from Gaeton Fonzi, an investigator for the House Select Committee on Assassinations, telling him that he would like to see him.[50] The HSCA considered him a "crucial witness".[51] That afternoon, de Mohrenschildt was found dead from a shotgun blast to the head in a house where he was staying in Manalapan, Florida.[52][37] The coroner's verdict was suicide.[53]



If your life was at stake all those "rogue elements" would have great motivation to keep it secret.







The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
250. Wow. You have proved the answer to the mystery is more mystery.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:01 PM
Dec 2013

But have not yet disproved anything in the Warren Report.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
253. This would the same Warren Commission which stated that Ruby didn't have a "significant link"
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:10 PM
Dec 2013

to organized crime, of which the House Select Committee disagreed with fifteen years later.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

In 1964, the Warren Commission provided a detailed biography of Ruby's life and activities to help ascertain whether he was involved in a conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy.[10] The Commission indicated that there was not a "significant link between Ruby and organized crime"[11] and said he acted independently in killing Oswald.[12] Fifteen years later, the House Select Committee on Assassinations undertook a similar investigation of Ruby and said that he "had a significant number of associations and direct and indirect contacts with underworld figures" and "the Dallas criminal element" but that he was not a "member" of organized crime.[13]



Discounting Ruby's connections to the Mafia does nothing to further the Warren Commission's credibilty.

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
283. So if I understand you correctly you are willing to throw out all of the WCR
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:20 PM
Dec 2013

because you believe they did not give sufficient weight to the testimony form an alleged mafia hit man.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
285. It wasn't just one Mafia Hitman, there was plenty of evidence linking Ruby to organized crime.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:26 PM
Dec 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Ruby was known to have been acquainted with both the police and the Mafia. The HSCA said that Ruby had known Chicago mobster Sam Giancana (1908-1975) and Joseph Campisi (1918–1990) since 1947, and had been seen with them on many occasions.[14][15] After an investigation of Joe Campisi, the HSCA found:

While Campisi's technical characterization in federal law enforcement records as an organized crime member has ranged from definite to suspected to negative, it is clear that he was an associate or friend of many Dallas-based organized crime members, particularly Joseph Civello, during the time he was the head of the Dallas organization. There was no indication that Campisi had engaged in any specific organized crime-related activities.[16]

Similarly, a PBS Frontline investigation into the connections between Ruby and Dallas organized crime figures reported the following:

In 1963, Sam and Joe Campisi were leading figures in the Dallas underworld. Jack knew the Campisis and had been seen with them on many occasions. The Campisis were lieutenants of Carlos Marcello, the Mafia boss who had reportedly talked of killing the President.[17]

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
288. Wiki says this about Ruby too.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:34 PM
Dec 2013
The Commission indicated that there was not a "significant link between Ruby and organized crime"[11] and said he acted independently in killing Oswald.[12] Fifteen years later, the House Select Committee on Assassinations undertook a similar investigation of Ruby and said that he "had a significant number of associations and direct and indirect contacts with underworld figures" and "the Dallas criminal element" but that he was not a "member" of organized crime.[13]

Gotta love that Wiki NPOV.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
297. Ruby didn't have to be a "member," he was connected regardless and he knew the consequences
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:08 PM
Dec 2013

of not obeying the Mafia.

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
317. Not only was he not a member...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:50 AM
Dec 2013

The Commission indicated that there was not a "significant link between Ruby and organized crime" and said he acted independently in killing Oswald.

How do you get that he was connected to the mafia from that?

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
321. That's not what the House Select Committee and other investigations have demonstrated.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:05 AM
Dec 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

In 1964, the Warren Commission provided a detailed biography of Ruby's life and activities to help ascertain whether he was involved in a conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy.[10] The Commission indicated that there was not a "significant link between Ruby and organized crime"[11] and said he acted independently in killing Oswald.[12] Fifteen years later, the House Select Committee on Assassinations undertook a similar investigation of Ruby and said that he "had a significant number of associations and direct and indirect contacts with underworld figures" and "the Dallas criminal element" but that he was not a "member" of organized crime.[13]

Ruby was known to have been acquainted with both the police and the Mafia. The HSCA said that Ruby had known Chicago mobster Sam Giancana (1908-1975) and Joseph Campisi (1918–1990) since 1947, and had been seen with them on many occasions.[14][15] After an investigation of Joe Campisi, the HSCA found:

While Campisi's technical characterization in federal law enforcement records as an organized crime member has ranged from definite to suspected to negative, it is clear that he was an associate or friend of many Dallas-based organized crime members, particularly Joseph Civello, during the time he was the head of the Dallas organization. There was no indication that Campisi had engaged in any specific organized crime-related activities.[16]

Similarly, a PBS Frontline investigation into the connections between Ruby and Dallas organized crime figures reported the following:

In 1963, Sam and Joe Campisi were leading figures in the Dallas underworld. Jack knew the Campisis and had been seen with them on many occasions. The Campisis were lieutenants of Carlos Marcello, the Mafia boss who had reportedly talked of killing the President.[17]



struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
315. de Mohrenschildt was involuntarily committed in 1976, on his wife's request: she noted then
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:40 AM
Dec 2013

his four prior suicide attempts, depression, auditory and visual hallucinations, and paranoid ideas, which included persecution by the CIA and "Jewish Mafia" -- perhaps his suicide four months later is not incredibly suspicious

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
320. Yes and Bush the Lesser wrote him a response letter.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:00 AM
Dec 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_de_Mohrenschildt

You will excuse this hand-written letter. Maybe you will be able to bring a solution to the hopeless situation I find myself in. My wife and I find ourselves surrounded by some vigilantes; our phone bugged; and we are being followed everywhere. Either FBI is involved in this or they do not want to accept my complaints. We are driven to insanity by the situation. I have been behaving like a damn fool ever since my daughter Nadya died from [cystic fibrosis] over three years ago. I tried to write, stupidly and unsuccessfully, about Lee H Oswald and must have angered a lot of people — I do not know. But to punish an elderly man like myself and my highly nervous and sick wife is really too much. Could you do something to remove the net around us? This will be my last request for help and I will not annoy you any more. Good luck in your important job. Thank you so much.[44][45]

George Bush wrote back:

Let me say first that I know it must have been difficult for you to seek my help in the situation outlined in your letter. I believe I can appreciate your state of mind in view of your daughter's tragic death a few years ago, and the current poor state of your wife's health. I was extremely sorry to hear of these circumstances. In your situation I can well imagine how the attentions you described in your letter affect both you and your wife. However, my staff has been unable to find any indication of interest in your activities on the part of Federal authorities in recent years. The flurry of interest that attended your testimony before the Warren Commission has long subsided. I can only speculate that you may have become "newsworthy" again in view of the renewed interest in the Kennedy assassination, and thus may be attracting the attention of people in the media. I hope this letter had been of some comfort to you, George, although I realize I am unable to answer your question completely. George Bush, Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. [CIA Exec Reg. # 76,51571 9.28.76][46]

On November 9, 1976, Jeanne had him committed to a mental institution in Texas for three months, and listed in a notarized affidavit four previous suicide attempts while he was in the Dallas area. In the affidavit she stated that George suffered from depression, heard voices, saw visions, and believed that the CIA and the Jewish Mafia were persecuting him.

(snip)

On March 16, 1977, de Mohrenschildt returned to the United States from his trip. His daughter talked with him at length and found him to be deeply disturbed about certain matters and had expressed a desire to commit suicide. On March 29, De Mohrenschildt gave an interview to author Edward Jay Epstein, during which he claimed that in 1962, Dallas CIA operative J. Walton Moore had given him the go-ahead to meet Oswald. "I would never have contacted Oswald in a million years if Moore had not sanctioned it," de Mohrenschildt said. "Too much was at stake."[49] On the same day as the Epstein interview, de Mohrenschildt received a business card from Gaeton Fonzi, an investigator for the House Select Committee on Assassinations, telling him that he would like to see him.[50] The HSCA considered him a "crucial witness".[51] That afternoon, de Mohrenschildt was found dead from a shotgun blast to the head in a house where he was staying in Manalapan, Florida.[52][37] The coroner's verdict was suicide.[53]



He was to be a "crucial witness" for the House Select Committee.



 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
183. The plans for JFK's Dallas trip weren't finalised until 18 November.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:51 AM
Dec 2013

That's when the motorcade route got final Secret Service approval.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

Any claims that "it was finalised in September" are unsupported by the evidence.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
187. Thanks for the correction, not finalized in all details but by your link September is when the plans
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:57 AM
Dec 2013

to Dallas were changed from a one day to two day trip.

To give the President more exposure speaking to a wider audience and the Trade Mart was a logical choice.



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

President Kennedy's visit to Texas in November 1963 had been under consideration for almost a year before it occurred. He had made only a few brief visits to the State since the 1960 Presidential campaign and in 1962 he began to consider a formal visit. . . . The basic decision on the November trip to Texas was made at a meeting of President Kennedy, Vice President Johnson, and Governor Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Tex. The President had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo., and had stopped in El Paso to discuss the proposed visit and other matters with the Vice President and the Governor. The three agreed that the President would come to Texas in late November 1963. The original plan called for the President to spend only 1 day in the State, making whirlwind visits to Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston. In September, the White House decided to permit further visits by the President and extended the trip to run from the afternoon of November 21 through the evening of Friday, November 22. When Governor Connally called at the White House on October 4 to discuss the details of the visit, it was agreed that the planning of events in Texas would be left largely to the Governor. At the White House, Kenneth O'Donnell, special assistant to the President, acted as coordinator for the trip.

Everyone agreed that, if there was sufficient time, a motorcade through downtown Dallas would be the best way for the people to see their President. . . . According to [Kenneth] O'Donnell, "we had a motorcade wherever we went," particularly in large cities where the purpose was to let the President be seen by as many people as possible. In his experience, "it would be automatic" for the Secret Service to arrange a route which would, within the time allotted, bring the President "through an area which exposes him to the greatest number of people."



 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
188. But the motorcade route wasn't finalised until 18 November.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:07 AM
Dec 2013

And the Trade Mart location was selected by Kennedy aide Ken O'Donnell.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
225. Once it was established in September that Kennedy's trip would be extended and that
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:34 PM
Dec 2013

they wanted him to viewed by the widest possible audience, the motorcade route was a formality.



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

President Kennedy's visit to Texas in November 1963 had been under consideration for almost a year before it occurred. He had made only a few brief visits to the State since the 1960 Presidential campaign and in 1962 he began to consider a formal visit. . . . The basic decision on the November trip to Texas was made at a meeting of President Kennedy, Vice President Johnson, and Governor Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Tex. The President had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo., and had stopped in El Paso to discuss the proposed visit and other matters with the Vice President and the Governor. The three agreed that the President would come to Texas in late November 1963. The original plan called for the President to spend only 1 day in the State, making whirlwind visits to Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston. In September, the White House decided to permit further visits by the President and extended the trip to run from the afternoon of November 21 through the evening of Friday, November 22. When Governor Connally called at the White House on October 4 to discuss the details of the visit, it was agreed that the planning of events in Texas would be left largely to the Governor. At the White House, Kenneth O'Donnell, special assistant to the President, acted as coordinator for the trip.

Everyone agreed that, if there was sufficient time, a motorcade through downtown Dallas would be the best way for the people to see their President. . . . According to O'Donnell, "we had a motorcade wherever we went," particularly in large cities where the purpose was to let the President be seen by as many people as possible. In his experience, "it would be automatic" for the Secret Service to arrange a route which would, within the time allotted, bring the President "through an area which exposes him to the greatest number of people."

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
229. No. The route was not a formality.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:15 PM
Dec 2013

What was automatic was the fact that there would be a motorcade, and that it would go through downtown Dallas so people could see the president, but it was not automatic that it would go through Dealey Plaza. That was not determined until long after Oswald had gotten the job at the TSBD.

Oh, and BTW, when Oswald was hired at the TSBD, there was a 50/50 chance that he would have been assigned to a different facility, which was not on the motorcade route. There were two open positions, one at TSBD building and one at another warehouse, which were filled at the same time, and his testified that the decision of which hire to assign to which job was arbitrary. So unless his boss was also part of the conspiracy, then whoever planted Oswald there, in addition to getting lucky with the motorcade route, the conspirators were also willing to take a 50/50 chance that the whole plot would be foiled because Oswald was assigned to the wrong location.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
237. There are only so many routes from Love Field to the Dallas Trade Mart, that was the most logical
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 05:09 PM
Dec 2013

route if the President's People wanted to expose him to a large venue.

Once the plans were set in September, it didn't take much guess work to figure out which route (s) the motorcade would take.

Having said that, they didn't need to drive through Dealey Plaza for Oswald to have a shot, although the angle and time window wouldn't have been as ideal.



You bring up an interesting question, who was the boss that hired him?
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
252. Except the Trade Mart wasn't selected as the location until 14 November.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:09 PM
Dec 2013

And the route wasn't confirmed until 18 November. Well after Oswald had the job at the TSBD. Over a month.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
254. The decision to speak to a wide venue was set in September and the Dallas Trade Mart was
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:12 PM
Dec 2013

the most the logical choice.

By deciding in September that the President's trip would be extended giving him an opportunity for more exposure, set the stage for the other pieces to fall in place.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
259. The first paragraph makes my point, the Dallas Trade Mart was the most logical choice.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:35 PM
Dec 2013


The Secret Service is told by the White House to examine three potential sites for President Kennedy’s Nov. 22 luncheon in Dallas. One site lacked the capacity to serve food to thousands of guests; the other was already booked. That left just one site: the Trade Mart, located on Stemmons Freeway.



The site lacking capacity would eliminate itself and never be under serious consideration once the decision was made in September to speak to a wide venue as for the site being booked out, usually those of kind of bookings are months if not years in advance.

Once the decision and form of visit was made in September, there was only one choice.

As for Truly I would be curious as to why he didn't assign Oswald to the other warehouse, was it at Oswald's request, the other unknown worker which he hired the same day, or just Truly's decision?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_School_Book_Depository

In addition to its building at Elm and Houston, the Texas School Book Depository Company maintained a second warehouse at 1917 Houston. Several blocks north of the main building, the short four-story structure was well removed from the parade route, half-hidden on an unpaved section of Houston. Oswald's supervisor, Roy Truly, told the Warren Commission that he had had the option to assign Oswald to either building on his first day at work. "I might have sent Oswald to work [there]... Oswald and another fellow reported for work on the same day [October 15] and I needed one of them for the depository building. I picked Oswald."[3] This second building was eventually destroyed to make way for the Woodall Rodgers Freeway.[3]




 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
260. The rest of it points out that Oswald was working there before any of this was decided
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:53 PM
Dec 2013

which undermines any argument in favour of conspiracy around the selection of the route or the location of the Trade Mart.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
262. It makes no difference whether the assassin was placed there before the route or the
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:12 PM
Dec 2013

route was determined afterward, it still gets the job done.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
264. Of course it makes a difference.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:15 PM
Dec 2013

For one, Oswald wasn't "placed" there. He got the job by chance. He knew someone who knew someone who worked there. Who told him they were hiring. And he almost got sent to another TSBD warehouse that wouldn't have been on the motorcade route. Oswald's presence there and the motorcade passing by his workplace? Pure chance that rules out conspiracy.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
266. "Chance" brought Oswald to Dallas during the same month (September)
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:24 PM
Dec 2013

that the trip was being revised to both extend and expand Kennedy's venue.

Once the decision to expand the venue was made in September there was no other logical choice except for the Trade Mart.

The same person which brought Oswald's family back to Dallas in September also informed him of the opening job at the Trade Mart.

Paine seems credible to me in the video above but I don't know of the neighbor which informed her of the opening.

That's a lot of "chance."

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
270. Oswald moved to Ft Worth on 6/14/1962 - a year and a half before he killed JFK.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:47 PM
Dec 2013

You know, as in Dallas/Ft Worth?

By October, 1962, Oswald was looking for work in Dallas.

On October 9, 1962, Oswald visited the Texas Employment Commission in Dallas. He rented a PO Box under his own name at the main Dallas Post Office. The next day, he filled out a change of address form to have his mail forwarded from Ft Worth to Dallas.

On October 11, 1962, Oswald was hired by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. in Dallas.

On November 4, 1962, The Oswalds moved into an apartment at 604 Elsbeth St. in Dallas.

Oswald was living in Dallas a full year before he shot JFK. He then moved to New Orleans in April, then back to Dallas on October 3, 1963.

So what did you mean when you said, "Chance" brought Oswald to Dallas during the same month (September)?"

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
274. Oswald wasn't living in Texas in September of 63, he was in New Orleans since April of 63.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:55 PM
Dec 2013

That was ten days after he shot at General Walker.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_harvey_oswald

Oswald returned to New Orleans on April 24, 1963.[102] Marina's friend, Ruth Paine, drove her by car from Dallas to join Oswald in New Orleans the next month in May.[103] On May 10, Oswald was hired by the Reily Coffee Company whose owner, William Reily, was a backer of the Crusade to Free Cuba Committee, an anti-Castro organization.[104][105] Oswald worked as a machinery greaser at Reily, but he was fired in July "...because his work was not satisfactory and because he spent too much time loitering in Adrian Alba's garage next door, where he read rifle and hunting magazines."[106][107]

(snip)

Marina's friend, Ruth Paine, transported Marina and her child by car from New Orleans to the Paine home in Irving, Texas, near Dallas, on September 23, 1963.[103][142] Oswald stayed in New Orleans at least two more days to collect a $33 unemployment check. It is uncertain when he left New Orleans; he is next known to have boarded a bus in Houston on September 26—bound for the Mexican border, rather than Dallas—and to have told other bus passengers that he planned to travel to Cuba via Mexico.[143][144] He arrived in Mexico City on September 27, where he applied for a transit visa at the Cuban Embassy,[145] claiming he wanted to visit Cuba on his way to the Soviet Union. The Cuban embassy officials insisted Oswald would need Soviet approval, but he was unable to get prompt co-operation from the Soviet embassy.

(snip)

On October 2, 1963, Oswald left Mexico City by bus and arrived in Dallas the next day. Ruth Paine said that her neighbor told her, on October 14, that there was a job opening at the Texas School Book Depository, where her neighbor's brother, Wesley Frazier, worked. Mrs. Paine informed Oswald who was interviewed at the Depository and was hired there on October 16.[151] Oswald's supervisor Roy Truly, said that Oswald "did a good day's work" and was an above average employee.[152][153] During the week, Oswald stayed in a Dallas rooming house (under the name "O.H. Lee&quot ,[154] but he spent his weekends with Marina at the Paine home in Irving. Oswald did not drive, but commuted to and from Dallas on Mondays and Fridays with his co-worker Wesley Frazier. On October 20, the Oswalds' second daughter Audrey was born.










stopbush

(24,396 posts)
277. I don't see what point you're trying to make.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:01 PM
Dec 2013

Oswald had been living in Dallas. He moved to New Orleans, then back to Dallas after his trip to Mexico.

He wasn't in Dallas in September, but in your previous post, you said he was in Dallas in September.

You are implying that the only reason Oswald showed up in Dallas was to shoot JFK as the trip to Dallas had been announced in September. That is what you're implying, is it not?

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
280. Oswald's family was brought back to Dallas in September, Oswald followed a few days later.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:10 PM
Dec 2013

There was no doubt Oswald would come to Dallas after his wife and child were driven there.

The trip wasn't announced in September but that was the month the plan was revised from a quick one day visit to two days including a speech with a wide venue exposing the President to a large number of people.

The only logical choice for such a speech even in September was the Dallas Trade Mart.



stopbush

(24,396 posts)
286. And who "brought" Oswald's family back to Dallas?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:28 PM
Dec 2013

Ruth Paine invited Marina to move in with her (in Irving) in July. Marina took her up on the offer in September, with the idea of having her baby in Dallas (Marina had been turned down for treatment by the NO Charity Hospital in June). So, Oswald followed his wife back to the Dallas area.

Doesn't sound like "chance" at all. Sounds like a pattern of separation and reunion that is typical with couples who have a stormy relationship.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
296. I was just reading her testimony regarding Oswald shooting at General Walker and she says
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:06 PM
Dec 2013

something a little different than De Mohrenschildts version.

But to address your point, Marina wrote the letter to Paine and the rifle came back to Dallas with Mirana in the station wagon, there wasn't going to be any seperation.



http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.
I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that
should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.
He said he would not repeat anything like that again.
By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.
You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

(snip)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was.


 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
271. Job at the TSBD.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:48 PM
Dec 2013

So Ruth Paine is a part of the conspiracy, now. A liberal Quaker is somehow working with the CIA to set up a kill of the president.

Coincidences happen. Things occur by random chance all the time. Start looking for connections between things and you can find quite a few but that doesn't rule out the operations of random chance and happenstance. Grasping at straws to say "but aha, this person brought Oswald to Dallas AND told him about the job at the TSBD, therefore they must be in on it!" is just connecting random dots that lead to a conclusion you've already worked out in advance. Instead of starting with the conclusion "there must be a conspiracy!" and searching around for evidence that fits your predetermined conclusion, look at the evidence and see where it leads you.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/questionable-cause.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
275. I said Paine seemed credible on the video, I also said I didn't know of her neighbor
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:57 PM
Dec 2013

which informed her of the job opening.

People can be manipulated without them being aware of it.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
276. See: list of logical fallacies in previous post.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:00 PM
Dec 2013

And again: Stop presuming "it was a conspiracy, therefore any evidence I find must fit into that framework". Look instead at the evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
278. There are too many connections to disregard the possibility of conpiracy.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:05 PM
Dec 2013

By presuming it was a lone act whether it be Kennedy's Assassination or the murder of Oswald as the Warren Commission did in disregarding Ruby's ties to organized crime, they fell victim to logical fallacy.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
289. Too many connections to what exactly?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:36 PM
Dec 2013

The possibility of conspiracy can be pretty well ruled out by a number of things. First: Oswald's presence at the TSBD before the details of Kennedy's Dallas visit were worked out. Second, Oswald's ownership of the rifle. His handwriting on the order form, the magazine the order from came from among his possessions, with the order form cut out, his handwriting on the money order, rifle shipped to his PO box, his prints on the rifle, his prints in the sniper's nest, forensics verify the shots came from behind, ballistics match the bullets to Oswald's rifle, ear-witnesses heard the shots coming from the sixth floor of the TSBD, eye-witness saw Oswald in the window, with the rifle, Oswald was the only TSBD employee unaccounted for, Oswald shot a police officer with the revolver he had in his possession when arrested, Oswald had no known contacts with any potential conspirators in the four days between confirmation of motorcade route and assassination, Oswald had no extra money, from anywhere, Oswald was in Irving begging Marina to come back to him and when she said "no" left his wedding ring and most of the money he had on the nightstand...not the actions of a man who was committed to a course of action. Not the actions of a man who's part of a conspiracy, either (he begs his wife to being the kids to live with him in Dallas? Where any conspirators would be able to find him after he doesn't carry out the hit? Not plausible.)

All these supposed "connections" are just like that leap of illogic "well Ruth Paine brought Oswald to Dallas and told him about the TSBD job therefore she's in on it!", dots that don't actually connect to anything or lead to anywhere. There's no evidence to support any of these nebulous "connections" being behind what happened in Dallas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
298. Oswald didn't need to make contact days after it hit the press.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:16 PM
Dec 2013

As I stated before, the assassin can be put in place before the route even weeks ahead of time, so long as the other details are worked out.

Oswald's wife wrote Ruth Paine wanting to come back from New Orleans to Dallas, and she brought the rifle back in the station wagon with her in September.



http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

Mr. RANKIN. After you wrote Mrs. Paine, did she come at once in response to your letter to take you back to Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite at once. She came about a month later. She apparently was on vacation at that time, and said that she would come after her vacation.
Mr. RANKIN. Didn't she indicate that she was going to come around September 30, and then came a little before that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. In her letter to me she indicated that she would come either the 20th or the 21st of September, and she did come at that time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you move your household goods in her station wagon at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was.


 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
300. And?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:23 PM
Dec 2013

There's no evidence whatever that the route to the Trade Mart was selected because it would go past Oswald. There's no evidence to suggest that Oswald is part of any larger conspiracy. Whether Oswald's rifle was carried in Ruth Paine's station wagon is neither here nor there. There's no evidence that Ruth Paine knew there was a rifle. It was wrapped in an old blanket in the garage; Oswald told the Paines it was "camping equipment". The only people who knew there was a rifle were Oswald and Marina. See here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TpzGMAmH2LEC&pg=PA128

Again: why do you assume it must have been conspiracy? The evidence and timing all says it wasn't.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
303. Oswald and Marina are all that needed to know.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:35 PM
Dec 2013

As I stated before people can be manipulated without their awareness.

Neither Oswald nor his wife thought Ruth Paine was smart.

As to why I believe there was a conspiracy, it's because too many dots connect even if the picture isn't totally filled in.

Ruby > Mafia > Dallas Police > Oswald > CIA > Bush the Lessor > etc. etc.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
305. Except those dots actually don't connect to anything.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:40 PM
Dec 2013

And starting with a conclusion and looking for evidence that fits it is approaching things the wrong way round.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
308. They all connect to Ruby, Oswald or their immediate connection, this
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:45 PM
Dec 2013

isn't "Seven Degrees of Kevn Bacon," it's more like one to three max.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
310. They don't, actually.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:05 AM
Dec 2013

Ruby's peripheral acquaintance with some minor organised crime figures is not evidence that Ruby himself was involved in organised crime (and there's not any evidence that he was), or that he was acting on behalf of organised crime when he killed Oswald (because there's no evidence of that, either). There's likewise no evidence that Oswald was acting on behalf of anyone at all. (If he were, why weren't they paying him? Why didn't they give him a better weapon? Why didn't they provide him with an escape route?) Random connections are utterly meaningless without evidence, and it all adds up to the sum total of jack shit when you factor in the totally coincidental timing that rules out any actual planning.

But hey, feel free to believe that everything can be explained as the coordinated action of some conjunction of CIA and Mob interests working in concert if it makes you feel better. Even though in fifty years not one bit of evidence has come out to support that, whereas we have quite a lot of evidence of other things that did happen, like the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran, Operation Northwoods, CIA assassination plots against Castro, CIA complicity in the assassinations of Trujillo and Diem and Lumumba and Allende, Iran-Contra, and lots else besides; if they're so awesome at covering things up, why couldn't they keep all that secret? This ONE thing they manage to successfully cover up for fifty years, but not all that other stuff. Again, it's just not credible.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
311. Ruby's connections weren't perripheral and he didn't have to be member of organized crime
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:15 AM
Dec 2013

to commit Oswald's murder.

Not being a member and having access to the Dallas Police Department made the job both easier and less likely to bring blame to the Mafia's doorstep.

Oswald's weapon was sufficient for the job, there was no need to pay him for something they knew he would do anyway as his shot at General Walker demonstrated and they never planned on the "patsy" escaping, Ruby was to be the solution to that. The less contact they had with Oswald the better.

All those coups and assassinations you posted only demonstrate their capacity to kill or overthrow for political purposes.

As for their capacity to keep this secret, it's precisely because this happened in the U.S.A.

No doubt many powerful interests fought against or didn't want full disclosure to come out for the "sake of the nation's" stability if nothing else.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
313. You just demonstrated by your post what we're capable of doing and yet you refuse to believe
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:29 AM
Dec 2013

it could and did happen here, that's a logical fallacy.



But hey, feel free to believe that everything can be explained as the coordinated action of some conjunction of CIA and Mob interests working in concert if it makes you feel better. Even though in fifty years not one bit of evidence has come out to support that, whereas we have quite a lot of evidence of other things that did happen, like the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran, Operation Northwoods, CIA assassination plots against Castro, CIA complicity in the assassinations of Trujillo and Diem and Lumumba and Allende, Iran-Contra, and lots else besides; if they're so awesome at covering things up, why couldn't they keep all that secret? This ONE thing they manage to successfully cover up for fifty years, but not all that other stuff. Again, it's just not credible.



 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
314. We have evidence of all of those things.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:33 AM
Dec 2013

It's fallacious to assume "if A, therefore B" (affirming the consequent); the fact that the CIA or other government agencies can and have done things like that doesn't mean that they also killed Kennedy, which there's no evidence of.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
316. That's because those were other nations and their people, justice departments and press
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:48 AM
Dec 2013

along with the world's at large had greater interest in exposing self-evident truths of atrocities when committed by a foreign power.

Here in the U.S. it was same attitude as Gerald Ford's (who by coincidence served on the Warren Commission) when pardoning Nixon, "our long national nightmare is over."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_ford

In the preface to his book, A Presidential Legacy and The Warren Commission, Ford said the CIA destroyed or kept from investigators critical secrets connected to the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He said the commission's probe put "certain classified and potentially damaging operations in danger of being exposed". The CIA's reaction, he added, "was to hide or destroy some information, which can easily be misinterpreted as collusion in JFK's assassination".[43]

According to a 1963 FBI memo released in 2008, Ford secretly provided the FBI with information about two of his fellow commission members, both of whom were unsure about the FBI's conclusions about the assassination.[44] The FBI position was that President Kennedy was shot by a single gunman firing from the Texas Book Depository. Another 1963 memo released in 1978 stated that Representative Ford volunteered to advise the FBI regarding the content of the commission's deliberations if his involvement with the bureau was kept confidential, a condition which the bureau approved.[45] Ford was an outspoken proponent of the single-assassin theory.[46] According to the same reports, Ford had strong ties to the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover.[46]



Ford said the destroyed CIA Memos could be easily misinterpreted as collusion in JFK's Assassination, but how is anyone to know, that was "evidence."

But don't worry about that, because there was no evidence there could've been no conspiracy, right?
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
319. And?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:59 AM
Dec 2013

Do I need to remind you it was Congressional investigations into the CIA's actions that exposed all of that?

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
322. And the evidence was destroyed, that's the point.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:11 AM
Dec 2013


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_ford

In the preface to his book, A Presidential Legacy and The Warren Commission, Ford said the CIA destroyed or kept from investigators critical secrets connected to the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He said the commission's probe put "certain classified and potentially damaging operations in danger of being exposed". The CIA's reaction, he added, "was to hide or destroy some information, which can easily be misinterpreted as collusion in JFK's assassination".

According to a 1963 FBI memo released in 2008, Ford secretly provided the FBI with information about two of his fellow commission members, both of whom were unsure about the FBI's conclusions about the assassination. The FBI position was that President Kennedy was shot by a single gunman firing from the Texas Book Depository. Another 1963 memo released in 1978 stated that Representative Ford volunteered to advise the FBI regarding the content of the commission's deliberations if his involvement with the bureau was kept confidential, a condition which the bureau approved. Ford was an outspoken proponent of the single-assassin theory. According to the same reports, Ford had strong ties to the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover.



You keep talking about lack of evidence, I show you how critical evidence was destroyed.

It doesn't make any difference how it was disclosed, the evidence was destroyed, that's the point.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
323. ...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:40 AM
Dec 2013

you assert "they destroyed evidence" without really looking at what the evidence was or what their motivations for doing it were; the evidence, so far as can be determined, related to the CIA's awareness of Oswald's trip to Mexico City. What was the Warren Commission most concerned with? That the assassination not be seen as a communist conspiracy, because that might lead to war.

http://www.npr.org/2013/11/22/246712521/botched-investigation-fuels-kennedy-conspiracy-theories

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
374. If your link does anything, it supports my contention, they were concerned with who Oswald met
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:04 PM
Dec 2013

with that wanted Kennedy dead, and they destroyed this evidence.

The people that Oswald met with wanting Kennedy dead was of critical importance to any serious investigation, of course Hoover already had his mind made up within 48 hours of the assassination.



http://www.npr.org/2013/11/22/246712521/botched-investigation-fuels-kennedy-conspiracy-theories

Very early on, I mean, within 48 hours of the assassination, FBI Director Jay Edgar Hoover determines, in his own mind, that Oswald acted alone, there was no conspiracy, there's not much to investigate here. And the FBI within two weeks produces this 400-page report which is supposedly a thorough review of all that is known about the assassination and about Oswald. The commission looks over the report and sees how inadequate it is and how, in many ways, incompetent the FBI investigation is and then moves on with a much more thorough investigation of its own.

(snip)

It turned out that Lee Harvey Oswald had been under surveillance by the FBI for months before the assassination, and the question becomes: Didn't the FBI have information to suggest what a threat Lee Harvey Oswald might be? And didn't it have an obligation to warn the Secret Service in advance of President Kennedy's arrival in Dallas? ... The decision seems to have been made by Hoover very early on to portray Oswald, whatever the evidence, as a lone wolf whose plot to kill the president could never had been detected by the FBI in advance — there was no conspiracy that the FBI could've stopped and saved the president. ... The extent of the knowledge that the FBI had of Oswald before the assassination seems to be something that the FBI wanted to hide from the Warren commission.

(snip)

On Oswald's trip to Mexico City weeks before the assassination
It's remarkable to discover that the CIA may have had Oswald under pretty aggressive surveillance in Mexico City. There were reports years later that there were photographs of Oswald in Mexico City that the CIA had taken. There were tape recordings of his telephone calls in Mexico City. All of that evidence would later disappear. The tapes, the CIA would say, were erased; the photographs, they would claim, never existed, even though there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that they did.

Both the FBI and the CIA seemed determined not to get to the bottom of what Oswald did [in Mexico]. Oswald is there for nearly six days. He apparently has encounters with Cuban spies and Cuban diplomats and Soviet spies and Mexicans who are sympathetic to Castro's revolution who had real reason to hope that President Kennedy's administration would be ended. And the FBI and the CIA seemed determined not to find those people that Oswald was dealing with, and the question becomes: Was Oswald, in this time period, just several weeks before the assassination, told by anybody, or encouraged by anybody to do what he would do in Dallas? ...




It's amazing to me that on the one hand you say people that believe there was a conspiracy, and this would include people like President Johnson and members of the Warren Commisson are "grasping at straws" because we have no evidence and then you post, and probably listen to nothing but reams of evidence being destroyed or with held for one reason or another and disregard that as if it means nothing!

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
385. Except that doesn't actually point to conspiracy
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:10 PM
Dec 2013

I find the conclusion of Philip Shenon in his recent book to be compelling, actually--that no, it wasn't a conspiracy; that Oswald was frustrated at Cuba's refusal to grant him a visa, at the Soviets' refusal to grant him a visa, that he'd heard in Mexico City of US plots to kill Castro, that had JFK's personal support...because a CIA agent called Desmond FitzGerald met with a Cuban he thought was a double agent who turned out to be reporting to Castro, arranging to deliver a rifle to him in Havana, and some of the people Oswald met in Mexico City would have been aware of it, and it was discussed in his presence, and he decided "well here's a golden opportunity, if I kill Kennedy, they HAVE to let me in". None of which actually requires conspiracy. (And also represents some intelligence failures on the part of the CIA.)

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
388. We don't know what transpired in regards to Oswald's meetings in Mexico because that evidence
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 01:44 AM
Dec 2013

was destroyed.

Even Shenon can't say for certain it wasn't a conspiracy, President Johnson believed it was a conspiracy, Shenon even states that Senator Russell who signed off on the Warren Commision Report believed it was a conspiracy.

He states the Warren Commision was deeply divided because too much evidence wasn't allowed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Warren_Commission

In a 2013 interview Robert Kennedy Jr. said his father Attorney General Robert Kennedy who publicly supported the commission privately felt it was a "shoddy piece of craftsmanship." [19] Francis W.H. Adams, Sr. Counsel on the Warren Commission and former New York City Police Commissioner, stated in 1978 that he thought there were others involved in the assassination motivated by the fact that Kennedy, acting contrary to the policies of the RIIA and Committee of 300, had issued Executive Order 11110 seizing back control of the U.S. currency, withdrawal from Vietnam, and the dismantling of the CIA. [20]

(snip)

As part of its investigation, the HSCA also evaluated the performance of the Warren Commission, which included interviews and public testimony from the two surviving Commission members (Ford and McCloy) and various Commission legal counsel staff. The Committee concluded in their final report that the Commission was reasonably thorough and acted in good faith, but failed to adequately address the possibility of conspiracy.





 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
390. Except we kind of do know what transpired in regard to Oswald's meetings in Mexico
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 02:05 AM
Dec 2013

because most of the people he actually met with have been interviewed since. See for instance here:


According to one source, his troubles attempting to get visas put him in such a state of rage against American travel restrictions to Communist countries that he actually declared, in the presence of witnesses at the Cuban consulate, that he wanted to kill JFK.

That source: Fidel Castro himself. You didn’t know about this? Neither did the Warren Commission. But they should have—or so it seems from Shenon’s reporting, because in June 1964, when the commission was still investigating, J. Edgar Hoover supposedly sent them a letter reporting Oswald’s threat. The FBI had a super-duper double agent code-named SOLO (real name Maurice Childs) who’d managed to insinuate himself into the presence of a worldwide array of communist heads of state including Khrushchev and Castro. In any case SOLO emerged from a post-Nov. 22 confab with Fidel to say that Fidel told him Cuban consulate and Cuban intelligence people there in Mexico City had witnessed an enraged Oswald declare in the consulate that he wanted to kill JFK. According to SOLO’s account, Castro said they didn’t take him seriously enough to warn JFK. Make of that what you will.

Hoover’s letter about Oswald’s Cuban Consulate threat, according to Shenon’s reporting, never seems to have reached the Warren Commission. It was lost for years until a copy of it finally turned up in the declassified CIA files on the JFK case. Maybe it was lost on purpose. The overwhelming desire of the government post-assassination was not to find out any inconvenient truths. No one, from LBJ on down, wanted to be forced into war with Fidel and then potentially the Russians—who maintained a military presence in Cuba post-Missile crisis—if we excavated some awful truth. Better it all be blurred lines.

But the Hoover letter about Oswald’s vow to kill JFK, did exist, and Shenon found it in the declassified CIA files where the only copy remained.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_spectator/2013/11/philip_shenon_s_a_cruel_and_shocking_act_stunning_reporting_in_new_book.single.html




Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
392. Except this part isn't true.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:13 AM
Dec 2013

From your link.



Of course, being exposed to the idea doesn’t necessarily mean he would follow through. Who could have known then that JFK’s motorcade would pass beneath Oswald’s window. Oswald didn’t yet have the job at the Texas School Book Depository, and JFK’s Dallas trip wasn’t even planned when Oswald was in Mexico City. And so it may have just been malignant fate that an already unstable Oswald used anger over a domestic dispute to take his revenge on the world that had defeated his hopes.



The trip had long been planned for late November and the final revisions; extending the trip which in time would bring Kennedy's Motorcade past TSBD was in September, Oswald was in Mexico at the end of September in to October.



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

Planning the Texas Trip
President Kennedy's visit to Texas in November 1963 had been under consideration for almost a year before it occurred. He had made only a few brief visits to the State since the 1960 Presidential campaign and in 1962 he began to consider a formal visit. . . . The basic decision on the November trip to Texas was made at a meeting of President Kennedy, Vice President Johnson, and Governor Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Tex. The President had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo., and had stopped in El Paso to discuss the proposed visit and other matters with the Vice President and the Governor. The three agreed that the President would come to Texas in late November 1963. The original plan called for the President to spend only 1 day in the State, making whirlwind visits to Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston. In September, the White House decided to permit further visits by the President and extended the trip to run from the afternoon of November 21 through the evening of Friday, November 22. When Governor Connally called at the White House on October 4 to discuss the details of the visit, it was agreed that the planning of events in Texas would be left largely to the Governor. At the White House, Kenneth O'Donnell, special assistant to the President, acted as coordinator for the trip.

Everyone agreed that, if there was sufficient time, a motorcade through downtown Dallas would be the best way for the people to see their President. . . . According to [Kenneth] O'Donnell, "we had a motorcade wherever we went," particularly in large cities where the purpose was to let the President be seen by as many people as possible. In his experience, "it would be automatic" for the Secret Service to arrange a route which would, within the time allotted, bring the President "through an area which exposes him to the greatest number of people."







 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
393. It is true.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:37 AM
Dec 2013
The original plan called for the President to spend only 1 day in the State, making whirlwind visits to Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston. In September, the White House decided to permit further visits by the President and extended the trip to run from the afternoon of November 21 through the evening of Friday, November 22. When Governor Connally called at the White House on October 4 to discuss the details of the visit, it was agreed that the planning of events in Texas would be left largely to the Governor. At the White House, Kenneth O'Donnell, special assistant to the President, acted as coordinator for the trip.


Oswald left Mexico City before any of this happened and before a timetable for Kennedy's visit was worked out, much less the details of where he'd appear and what route he'd take to get there. (note that 4 October is after Oswald's return to Dallas. Note also that it's well before the details of Kennedy's planned appearance at the Dallas Trade Mart were worked out, or before any motorcade route was decided.)

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
399. No it isn't true.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 08:25 PM
Dec 2013


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

Planning the Texas Trip
President Kennedy's visit to Texas in November 1963 had been under consideration for almost a year before it occurred. He had made only a few brief visits to the State since the 1960 Presidential campaign and in 1962 he began to consider a formal visit. . . . The basic decision on the November trip to Texas was made at a meeting of President Kennedy, Vice President Johnson, and Governor Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Tex. The President had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo., and had stopped in El Paso to discuss the proposed visit and other matters with the Vice President and the Governor. The three agreed that the President would come to Texas in late November 1963. The original plan called for the President to spend only 1 day in the State, making whirlwind visits to Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston. In September, the White House decided to permit further visits by the President and extended the trip to run from the afternoon of November 21 through the evening of Friday, November 22. When Governor Connally called at the White House on October 4 to discuss the details of the visit, it was agreed that the planning of events in Texas would be left largely to the Governor. At the White House, Kenneth O'Donnell, special assistant to the President, acted as coordinator for the trip.

Everyone agreed that, if there was sufficient time, a motorcade through downtown Dallas would be the best way for the people to see their President. . . . According to O'Donnell, "we had a motorcade wherever we went," particularly in large cities where the purpose was to let the President be seen by as many people as possible. In his experience, "it would be automatic" for the Secret Service to arrange a route which would, within the time allotted, bring the President "through an area which exposes him to the greatest number of people."



The basic decision for JFK to come to Texas in late November was set as early as June, it was in September when it was decided to extend his vist to allow the President to speak at a wider venue.

September is when Oswald headed to Mexico and that was the time frame of the destroyed CIA evidence.

Connally was just working on the logistics and we have already determined that of the three choices the Trade Mart was the only logical choice.

One place didn't have the seating capacity and the other had already been booked, something which anyone could've checked and known.

It didn't take much guess work to determine which facility would be used.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
400. We're not talking about "the basic decision".
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 12:24 AM
Dec 2013

The fine details hadn't been decided; the venue hadn't been decided. Not when Oswald was in Mexico City they hadn't. (Insisting that they had makes you look like a crank trying to force the square peg of actual evidence fit into the round hole of conspiracy.)

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
401. The actual evidence is that 2500 people were expected to attend Kennedy's Speech, this was
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 12:33 PM
Dec 2013

determined in September, the venue was the only thing that wasn't settled.

Three phone calls is all it took to determine that the Trade Mart was the only logical choice and if one were knowledgable, it may not have taken three.



http://www.buffalonews.com/news-wire-services/50-years-ago-today-unease-then-shock-in-dallas-and-a-speech-never-delivered-20131122

But that morning, the mood was upbeat. Like others at the Trade Mart, Miller shared coffee and conversation as excitement built over the president appearing with his dazzling first lady, Jacqueline Kennedy. About 2,500 people attended the luncheon, where steak was on the menu, with Catholics, including the presidential couple, having received special dispensation for the day: They could forgo the custom of eating fish on Friday, as was customary in 1963, and enjoy a juicy slab of Texas beef.




If connecting those two logic dots makes you look like a crank, so be it.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
402. Again:
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 12:45 PM
Dec 2013
When Governor Connally called at the White House on October 4 to discuss the details of the visit, it was agreed that the planning of events in Texas would be left largely to the Governor.


The fourth of October is clearly after the second of October, when Oswald left Mexico City.

Advance preparations for President Kennedy's visit to Dallas were primarily the responsibility of two Secret Service agents: Special Agent Winston G. Lawson, a member of the White House detail who acted as the advance agent, and Forrest V. Sorrels, special agent in charge of the Dallas office. Both agents were advised of the trip on November 4.


The fourth of November is well after Oswald started working at the TSBD.

Connecting dots where there's no logical connection makes you look like a crank, yes.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
403. Again, when they met at the White House in September, they determined that JFK
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 04:03 PM
Dec 2013

would be speaking to a "wide venue."

It was in September when Oswald sent his rifle back to Dallas with his wife from New Orleans.

Ten days after Connolly started setting the venue, no doubt calling those places to see if they were suitable, for JFK's visit on Oct. 4th, Oswald is told of the job opening at the TSBD on Oct 14th and is hired on the 16th, his work attitude is 180 degrees better than his two previous jobs in Dallas.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_harvey_oswald

On October 2, 1963, Oswald left Mexico City by bus and arrived in Dallas the next day. Ruth Paine said that her neighbor told her, on October 14, that there was a job opening at the Texas School Book Depository, where her neighbor's brother, Wesley Frazier, worked. Mrs. Paine informed Oswald who was interviewed at the Depository and was hired there on October 16.[151] Oswald's supervisor Roy Truly, said that Oswald "did a good day's work" and was an above average employee.[152][153] During the week, Oswald stayed in a Dallas rooming house (under the name "O.H. Lee&quot ,[154] but he spent his weekends with Marina at the Paine home in Irving. Oswald did not drive, but commuted to and from Dallas on Mondays and Fridays with his co-worker Wesley Frazier. On October 20, the Oswalds' second daughter Audrey was born.



The Mafia hated JFK and they hated Fidel Castro as well, so how do you kill two birds with one stone?

You set up a patsy representing Castro's interests to kill JFK and then you kill the patsy.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_crime_family

In November 1963, President John F. Kennedy visited Dallas. Many suspected the involvement of the local underworld when the President was assassinated on November 22. Suspicions increased two days later when accused Kennedy assassin Lee Harvey Oswald, then in the custody of the Dallas Police, was shot to death in front of TV cameras by local nightclub owner Jack Ruby. Though suppressed for a time by federal investigators, Ruby’s underworld connections in Chicago and across the South were well known in Dallas. Informant Bobby Gene Moore told the FBI all he knew about Ruby’s many visits with Joseph Civello. During the Warren Commission probe into the Kennedy Assassination, further evidence surfaced of contacts between Ruby and Tampa Mob figures in Havana, Cuba. Ruby visited gambler Lewis J. McWillie in Havana in 1959, and one account suggested he and McWillie visited Tampa crime boss Santo Trafficante Jr., then held by Fidel Castro at Trescornia detention camp. The FBI called in Joseph Civello for a brief interview and noted that the Dallas crime boss admitted knowing Ruby for about ten years and seeing him four or five times. Civello told agents that he last recalled seeing Ruby in 1957. Civello died in January 1970.



When Joseph Civello came to power in the Dallas Mafia in 1956, they were engaged in legitmate business including building contracting as well as their more nefarious endeavors.

The Mafia in Dallas, no doubt had access and/or knowledge of the commerical real estate market and its' capacity.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Civello

After his release, Civello resumed his organized criminal activities in Dallas and quickly moved up within the Piranio family ranks. From its beginning, the Piranio crime family was a traditional mafia organization, taking care to avoid unnecessary attention from the press and law enforcement. In fact, when family boss Joseph Piranio died at age 78, his obituary described him as a successful retired building contractor and family man; no mention was made of any involvement in the underworld.[6] The low-key nature of the Dallas mob quickly changed once Civello assumed the reins as boss upon Piranio's death in 1956.



Jay Edgar Hoover, the man that downplayed the existence of the Mafia and within 48 hours after JFK's Assassination had determined that Oswald was the only culprit with no conspirators had been forced to change his tune only a few years earlier in regards to the Mafia when the Apalachin Meeting came to light in November of 1957.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apalachin_Meeting

Local and state law enforcement became suspicious when a large number of expensive cars bearing license plates from around the country arrived in what was described as "the sleepy hamlet of Apalachin."[5] After setting up roadblocks, the police raided the meeting causing many of the participants to flee into the woods and area surrounding the Barbara estate.[6] More than 60 underworld bosses were detained and indicted following the raid. One of the most direct and significant outcomes of the Apalachin Meeting was that it helped to confirm the existence of the American Mafia to the public, a fact that some, including Federal Bureau of Investigation Director J. Edgar Hoover, had long refused to acknowledge publicly.[4][7][8]





 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
404. Except it's nonsense
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 07:18 PM
Dec 2013

because Oswald getting the job was a total coincidence. And he wasn't a "patsy". All the shots came from his rifle. He shot and killed a police officer. All the evidence says he did it and he did it alone.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
324. I hope you take a look at this article about who owned the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:48 AM
Dec 2013
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/MDbyrdDH.htm

I once read it was owned by someone involved with Big Oil in Texas and meant to look it up. The man's name was David Harold Byrd, and he definitely was associated with Big Oil.

As I continued to read the article, I was struck by the mention of many familiar names. But "The One" that jumped off the page was that of Mac Wallace.

"In 1944 Byrd founded Byrd Oil Corporation and B-H Drilling Corporation. In 1952 Byrd established the Three States Natural Gas Company. Byrd later sold Byrd Oil to Mobil and Three States to Delhi-Taylor. Byrd used this money to invest in aircraft production and established Temco. A company that employed Mac Wallace after he was convicted of killing John Kinser.

Barr McClellan (Blood, Money & Power) points out that Byrd, along with Clint Murchison, Haroldson L. Hunt and Sid Richardson, was part of the Big Oil group in Dallas. McClellan argues that "Big Oil would be during the fifties and into the sixties what the OPEC oil cartel was to the United States in the seventies and beyond". One of the main concerns of this group was the preservation of the oil depletion allowance."

Mac Wallace is the man Barr McClellan identifies as the second shooter in the Texas Book Depository the day Kennedy was shot.

Sam

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
279. That motorcade went way out of its way to put downtown on the route from Love Field
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:07 PM
Dec 2013

to the Trade Mart: it's only about 4 miles by a direct route, but the Kennedy motorcade route was about 10 miles from Love Field to Trade Mart

So it's a substantial detour and it doesn't seem to me predictable weeks and weeks in advance

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
281. If you're going to drive slow and expose the President to large number of people it is.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:12 PM
Dec 2013

The large exposure idea was determined in September.

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
284. Fifty years later, with this assassination and various assassination attempts on record,
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:23 PM
Dec 2013

the Secret Service has no doubt changed their practices considerably

Hindsight is perfect: an important difference, between ourselves and those who came before us, is that we know what happened to them while they never knew what would happen to them

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
287. I agree, struggle4progress, but some of this was just stupid even for that day and there was
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:33 PM
Dec 2013

no excuse for it.

Along with Ruby's ties to organized crime, the Dallas Police Department's total lapse of control in transporting Oswald, and their lack of forthcomingness in responding to the Warren Commission, it all seems a little too convenient just to be "chance" as some here contend.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

The House Select Committee on Assassinations in its 1979 Final Report opined:

…Ruby's shooting of Oswald was not a spontaneous act, in that it involved at least some premeditation. Similarly, the committee believed it was less likely that Ruby entered the police basement without assistance, even though the assistance may have been provided with no knowledge of Ruby's intentions… The committee was troubled by the apparently unlocked doors along the stairway route and the removal of security guards from the area of the garage nearest the stairway shortly before the shooting… There is also evidence that the Dallas Police Department withheld relevant information from the Warren Commission concerning Ruby's entry to the scene of the Oswald transfer.[60]



 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
290. "It seems a little too convenient"
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:40 PM
Dec 2013

which is why Ruby was at home in his underwear at 10am when Oswald's transfer was supposed to take place. Which is why he walked into the garage five seconds before Oswald stepped out of the elevator. He was receiving constant updates on his double-nought-spy secret two-way radio? The fact of the timing makes anything other than chance improbable to impossible.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
299. And Ruby falsely claims he thought the transfer had already taken place
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:20 PM
Dec 2013
almost an hour afterward with a huge crowd of reporters and police still milling about, that makes no sense.

If Oswald had been transferred, an hour later the crowd would have no reason to be there.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
301. How would he have known he hadn't been? It was announced for 10am.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:26 PM
Dec 2013

The Dallas chief of police told reporters "if you're all back here by ten o'clock tomorrow morning, you won't have missed anything". So Ruby is supposed to shoot Oswald. Misses Oswald's announced transfer time. Gets there just five seconds before Oswald walks out of the elevator. And the Mafia order him to kill Oswald in a room full of cops and reporters and TV cameras? None of that makes any sense whatever.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
304. Perhaps because the police vehicle wasn't moved or perhaps because Ruby's informant told him the
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:39 PM
Dec 2013

transfer was going to be delayed.

But Ruby knew it hadn't taken place when he drove to the Western Union.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
382. Ruby owned a Strip Bar in DALLAS in 1963 fer gawds sake.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:41 PM
Dec 2013

His "strippers" and Prostitutes rotated out of New Orleans.
You don't do that unless you have "permission".

How f**king naive are you?

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
387. I guess I must be pretty f**king naive.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 01:42 AM
Dec 2013

Because that is not evidence of a conspiracy.

At any rate, its always great to be insulted by one of my favorite DUers.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
63. And in regards to the security guards being removed from the door during Oswald's transport,
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:12 PM
Dec 2013

perhaps this had something to do with that as well.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Howard P. Willens — the third highest official in the Department of Justice[22] and assistant counsel to J. Lee Rankin — helped organize the Warren Commission. Willens also outlined the Commission's investigative priorities[23] and terminated an investigation of Ruby's Cuban related activities.[24] An FBI report states that Willens's father had been Tony Accardo's next door neighbor going back to 1958.[25] In 1946, Tony Accardo allegedly asked Jack Ruby to go to Texas with Mafia associates Pat Manno and Romie Nappi to make sure that Dallas County Sheriff Steve Gutherie would acquiesce to the Mafia’s expansion into Dallas.[26]



How deep did Mafia influence in Dallas law enforcment go?
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
66. Uh huh.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:18 PM
Dec 2013

The Mob wanted Ruby to whack Oswald so badly that Ruby was at home in his underwear at 10am on the morning of Sunday the 24th of November. Which was the time the Dallas PD had announced in a press conference they'd be moving Oswald to the county jail. The transfer was delayed because the US Postal Inspector for Dallas showed up to question Oswald about his use of post office boxes, and because Oswald wanted a clean shirt/sweater. Something Ruby couldn't have been aware of. So why wasn't he there at 10am?

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
70. I suppose Ruby could've rented a bunk or brought his sleeping bag to the police dept. but that
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:26 PM
Dec 2013

probably would've been pushing it, as it was Ruby had been stalking Oswald for the opportunity to kill him.

Ruby had been to the police dept on several prior occasions after Oswald's arrest.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Ruby (also known as "Sparky," from his boxing nickname "Sparkling Ruby"[51]) was seen in the halls of the Dallas Police Headquarters on several occasions after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963; and newsreel footage from WFAA-TV (Dallas) and NBC shows Ruby impersonating a newspaper reporter during a press conference at Dallas Police Headquarters on the night of the assassination.[52] District Attorney Henry Wade briefed reporters at the press conference telling them that Lee Oswald was a member of the anti-Castro Free Cuba Committee. Ruby was one of several people there who spoke up to correct Wade, saying: "Henry, that's the Fair Play for Cuba Committee," a pro-Castro organization.[53][54][55] Some speculate that Ruby may have hoped to kill Oswald that night at the police station press conference. Ruby told the FBI, a month after his arrest for killing Oswald, that he had his loaded snub-nosed Colt Cobra .38 revolver in his right-hand pocket during the press conference.[56][57][58]

(snip)

The House Select Committee on Assassinations in its 1979 Final Report opined:

…Ruby's shooting of Oswald was not a spontaneous act, in that it involved at least some premeditation. Similarly, the committee believed it was less likely that Ruby entered the police basement without assistance, even though the assistance may have been provided with no knowledge of Ruby's intentions… The committee was troubled by the apparently unlocked doors along the stairway route and the removal of security guards from the area of the garage nearest the stairway shortly before the shooting… There is also evidence that the Dallas Police Department withheld relevant information from the Warren Commission concerning Ruby's entry to the scene of the Oswald transfer.

(snip)

Another motive was put forth by Frank Sheeran, allegedly a hitman for the Mafia, in a conversation he had with the then-former Teamsters boss Jimmy Hoffa. During the conversation, Hoffa claimed that Ruby was assigned the task of coordinating police officers who were loyal to Ruby to murder Oswald while he was in their custody. As Ruby evidently mismanaged the operation, he was given a choice to either finish the job himself or forfeit his life.


 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
76. Which still doesn't explain why he wasn't there when Oswald was scheduled to be transferred...
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:33 PM
Dec 2013

if his intention on waking up that morning was to kill Oswald.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
81. When did they announce that they would be moving Oswald in the press conference?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:39 PM
Dec 2013


The Mob wanted Ruby to whack Oswald so badly that Ruby was at home in his underwear at 10am on the morning of Sunday the 24th of November. Which was the time the Dallas PD had announced in a press conference they'd be moving Oswald to the county jail. The transfer was delayed because the US Postal Inspector for Dallas showed up to question Oswald about his use of post office boxes, and because Oswald wanted a clean shirt/sweater. Something Ruby couldn't have been aware of. So why wasn't he there at 10am?

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
83. ...
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:42 PM
Dec 2013
The decision to move Oswald to the county jail on Sunday morning was reached by Chief Curry the preceding evening. Sometime after 7:30 Saturday evening, according to Assistant Chief Batchelor, two reporters told him that they wanted to go out to dinner but that "they didn't want to miss anything if we were going to move the prisoner." Curry came upon them at that point and told the two newsmen that if they returned by 10 o'clock in the morning, they wouldn't "miss anything." 95 A little later, after checking with Captain Fritz, Curry made a similar announcement to the assembled reporters. Curry reported the making of his decision to move Oswald as follows:

Then, I talked to Fritz about when he thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't think it was a good idea to transfer him at night because of the fact you couldn't see, and if anybody tried to cause them any trouble, they needed to see who they were and where it was coming from and so forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, so this was normal procedure, I mean, for Fritz to determine when he is going to transfer his prisoners, so I told him "Okay." I asked him, I said, "What time do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" And he didn't know exactly and I said, "Do you think about 10 o'clock," and he said, "I believe so," and then is when I went out and told the newspaper people ... "I believe if you are back here by 10 o'clock you will be back in time to observe anything you care to observe." 96

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-5.html#news

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
90. Ruby had been stalking Oswald of that, there is no dispute.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:00 PM
Dec 2013

Perhaps Ruby overslept or was stuck in traffic, the time of transfer was delayed for what reason, "a clean t-shirt"?

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
96. I'm wondering why Ruby would believe this if Oswald had already been transferred an hour before?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:18 PM
Dec 2013

From you link.



http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/Jack_Ruby/Logical_approach_to_Ruby.html

4. Ruby testified that when he drove by the county jail on his way to Western Union, he saw a large crowd of people and assumed that Oswald had already been transferred. "And it was a logical assumption, since it was nearly an hour after the announced time of transfer."



Why is that a "logical" assumption if it was "nearly an hour after the transfer?"

It seems logical to me the crowd would've dissipated an hour after the fact.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
109. But the crowd was still there nearly an hour afterwards, logic should tell you the transfer had not
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:25 PM
Dec 2013

taken place.

I believe Ruby had an informant or plan to gain access prior to the actual transfer.

He knew the transfer hadn't taken place despite his testimony.

This is why Ruby was close to the police department.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Howard P. Willens — the third highest official in the Department of Justice and assistant counsel to J. Lee Rankin — helped organize the Warren Commission. Willens also outlined the Commission's investigative priorities and terminated an investigation of Ruby's Cuban related activities. An FBI report states that Willens's father had been Tony Accardo's next door neighbor going back to 1958. In 1946, Tony Accardo allegedly asked Jack Ruby to go to Texas with Mafia associates Pat Manno and Romie Nappi to make sure that Dallas County Sheriff Steve Gutherie would acquiesce to the Mafia’s expansion into Dallas.




Furthermore why did Ruby believe his life and his family's life was in danger?

Because he knew pleading insanity was the only way to divert attention away from his Mafia connections.

From your link.



http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/ruby_j1.htm

And I made it my business to drive down Preston Road. In my mind suddenly it mulled over me that the police department was working overtime. And this is the craziest thing that ever happened in a person's life. I have always been very close to the police department, I don't know why.

(snip)

Mr. RUBY. Gentlemen, my life is in danger here. Not with my guilty plea of execution.

(snip)

Mr. RUBY. I tell you, gentlemen, my whole family is in jeopardy. My sisters, as to their lives.



Furthermore did they ever give Ruby a polygraph test?





Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
121. No wonder they don't allow polygraph tests to be used as evidence anymore, Ruby
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:18 PM
Dec 2013

twisted and turned the phrase "Did you tell anyone you were going to shoot Oswald" in to a pretzel, thus creating an outlet to beat that question.

I read the entire link but never saw a question as to whether somone told Ruby to shoot Oswald.

There were some questions about "underworld influence" but that's too ambiguous.

It seemed to me Ruby had the upper hand in controlling that test, using many subtle evasive maneuvers to outwit his questioners.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
118. If there were a shred of evidence that the mafia sent Ruby to kill Oswald...
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 10:02 PM
Dec 2013

then you might have a point. Of course, there isn't any.

If the mafia had sent a hit man to kill Oswald than they would have sent someone who (a) had done something remotely like that before and (b) knew better than to carry out a hit on live TV in a room full of police officers.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
122. Ruby had the best opportunity to kill Oswald he had connections and was on friendly terms with
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:24 PM
Dec 2013

the police at the behest of the Mafia.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Howard P. Willens — the third highest official in the Department of Justice and assistant counsel to J. Lee Rankin — helped organize the Warren Commission. Willens also outlined the Commission's investigative priorities and terminated an investigation of Ruby's Cuban related activities. An FBI report states that Willens's father had been Tony Accardo's next door neighbor going back to 1958. In 1946, Tony Accardo allegedly asked Jack Ruby to go to Texas with Mafia associates Pat Manno and Romie Nappi to make sure that Dallas County Sheriff Steve Gutherie would acquiesce to the Mafia’s expansion into Dallas.



DanTex

(20,709 posts)
123. Not remotely close to evidence that the mafia had Ruby kill Oswald.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:29 PM
Dec 2013

Even if the mob hit theory wasn't completely implausible (for the reasons I pointed out in my last post, among others), the fact that Ruby had some loose contacts with organized crime members is light-years away from evidence that they ordered him to carry out a hit.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
130. That's all in the eye of the beholder, I believe Ruby had more than just "loose contacts" going
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:53 PM
Dec 2013

all the way back to 1946.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

In 1964, the Warren Commission provided a detailed biography of Ruby's life and activities to help ascertain whether he was involved in a conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy.[10] The Commission indicated that there was not a "significant link between Ruby and organized crime"[11] and said he acted independently in killing Oswald.[12] Fifteen years later, the House Select Committee on Assassinations undertook a similar investigation of Ruby and said that he "had a significant number of associations and direct and indirect contacts with underworld figures" and "the Dallas criminal element" but that he was not a "member" of organized crime.[13]

Ruby was known to have been acquainted with both the police and the Mafia. The HSCA said that Ruby had known Chicago mobster Sam Giancana (1908-1975) and Joseph Campisi (1918–1990) since 1947, and had been seen with them on many occasions.[14][15] After an investigation of Joe Campisi, the HSCA found:

While Campisi's technical characterization in federal law enforcement records as an organized crime member has ranged from definite to suspected to negative, it is clear that he was an associate or friend of many Dallas-based organized crime members, particularly Joseph Civello, during the time he was the head of the Dallas organization. There was no indication that Campisi had engaged in any specific organized crime-related activities.[16]

Similarly, a PBS Frontline investigation into the connections between Ruby and Dallas organized crime figures reported the following:

In 1963, Sam and Joe Campisi were leading figures in the Dallas underworld. Jack knew the Campisis and had been seen with them on many occasions. The Campisis were lieutenants of Carlos Marcello, the Mafia boss who had reportedly talked of killing the President.[17]



 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
132. Keep believing that fantasy.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:12 AM
Dec 2013

If there was a mob hit to be done, you don't do it in a police station on national television. Ruby always hung around the police station, and in fact could be plainly seen on CBS's broadcast of the JFK assassination the day before he shot Oswald.

If he wanted to kill Oswald then, he could have.

Ruby was as insane as Oswald. In part he did it to spare Mrs. Kennedy a trial. Deal with reality, please.

Uncle Joe

(58,364 posts)
141. The mob would do it if they thought this would cover up a greater crime,
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:45 AM
Dec 2013

that being the assassination of the President.

Ruby would've done it to protect his family.

Why do you suppose Ruby was so afraid for both his and his family's life?



http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/ruby_j1.htm

Mr. RUBY. Gentlemen, my life is in danger here. Not with my guilty plea of execution.

(snip)

Mr. RUBY. I tell you, gentlemen, my whole family is in jeopardy. My sisters, as to their lives.



Here is another cosmic coincidence regarding Ruby and conspiracy belief.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ruby

Dallas Deputy Sheriff Al Maddox claimed: "Ruby told me, he said, 'Well, they injected me for a cold.' He said it was cancer cells. That's what he told me, Ruby did. I said you don't believe that bullshit. He said, 'I damn sure do!' [Then] one day when I started to leave, Ruby shook hands with me and I could feel a piece of paper in his palm… [In this note] he said it was a conspiracy and he said … if you will keep your eyes open and your mouth shut, you're gonna learn a lot. And that was the last letter I ever got from him."[74] Not long before Ruby died, according to an article in the London Sunday Times, he told psychiatrist Werner Teuter that the assassination was "an act of overthrowing the government" and that he knew "who had President Kennedy killed." He added: "I am doomed. I do not want to die. But I am not insane. I was framed to kill Oswald."[74][75][76]

Eventually, the appellate court agreed with Ruby's lawyers for a new trial, and on October 5, 1966, ruled that his motion for a change of venue before the original trial court should have been granted. Ruby's conviction and death sentence were overturned. Arrangements were underway for a new trial to be held in February 1967 in Wichita Falls, Texas, when on December 9, 1966, Ruby was admitted to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, suffering from pneumonia. A day later, doctors realized he had cancer in his liver, lungs, and brain. Three weeks later, he died.

(snip)

The mob was Ruby's "friend." And Ruby could well have been paying off an IOU the day he was used to kill Lee Harvey Oswald. Remember: "I have been used for a purpose," the way Ruby expressed it to Chief Justice Warren in their June 7, 1964 session. It would not have been hard for the mob to maneuver Ruby through the ranks of a few negotiable police [to kill Oswald].[80]

In his book, Contract on America, David Scheim presented evidence that Mafia leaders Carlos Marcello, Santo Trafficante, Jr. and Jimmy Hoffa ordered the assassination of President Kennedy. Scheim cited in particular a 25-fold increase in the number of out-of-state telephone calls from Jack Ruby to associates of these crime bosses in the months before the assassination.[81] According to Vincent Bugliosi, both the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee on Assassinations determined all of these calls were related to Ruby seeking help from the American Guild of Variety Artists in a matter concerning two of his competitors.[82] The House Select Committee on Assassinations report stated "...that most of Ruby's phone calls during late 1963 were related to his labor troubles. In light of the identity of some of the individuals with whom Ruby spoke, however, the possibility of other matters being discussed could not be dismissed."[83]



stopbush

(24,396 posts)
383. Yes, I've had my posts hidden by juries.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:55 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Doesn't stop me from posting at DU.

It did, however, stop me from donating any more money to DU after being a donor for over 10 years. I see no point in supporting this site with my $ when they'll take down my posts but not enforce their own rules on what belongs in GD and what belongs in Creative Speculation.

So, no star next to my name these days.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
62. Let's see... Believe in conspiracies or believe what our Government tells us?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:08 PM
Dec 2013

Hmmm... Which shall I do?
Operation Northwoods. JFK assassination. Iran/Contra. 9/11. The election of 2000. The election of 2004. Social Security is in trouble. We cannot afford Single Payer.
How can anyone listen to what our government tells us without believing in conspiracies? And that is just a few of the things in the last 50 years

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
65. Therefore you must believe the moon landing was faked too!
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:17 PM
Dec 2013

...is what some of the authoritarian shitheads try to impose on any CT related discussion.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
73. Tar with a broad brush -- aka straw man argumentation
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:28 PM
Dec 2013

Clearly there have been lots of government cover-ups for lots of different reasons. Those in power generally don't want the rest of us to know what they are doing with that power. We are left to use the little bits of information that floats free, together with whatever critical thinking skills we can muster, to determine when our government might be misbehaving in a very bad way.

We won't always get it right because they hold most of the power. Therefore nobody should apologize for erring on the side of suspicion.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
203. Actually, yours is the straw argument.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:41 AM
Dec 2013

Nobody has ever claimed that the government never lies. The idea is that in order to determine the truth, you have to go beyond "the government lies" versus "the government tells the truth" and look at the actual evidence. For certain events, like the JFK assassination and the moon landing, the evidence against a conspiracy is extremely strong, regardless of what the government says.

In fact, the government *did* get certain parts of the JFK assassination wrong. Most notably was the HSCA, who on the basis of faulty audio evidence, concluded that four shots rather than three were fired. This mistake was later corrected when the tape was examined more closely and it was found that the recording actually took place minutes after the assassination.

JFK CTs have nothing to do with "trusting the government." It is about reason and factual evidence versus wild unfounded speculation.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
209. "the actual evidence"
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:57 AM
Dec 2013

There's the rub.

Those supporting the government position on this universally praise the "experts" who were allowed to speak in support of the government's narrative at the commission hearings. And then they brand everybody else as "conspiracy nuts", implying their information lacks credibility because it wasn't endorsed by the Warren Commission.

A completely circular, set-sustaining set of reasoning.

Again, I point out that there wasn't a single witness that appeared before the commission who was subject to cross-examination by any advocate for a position other than the government's narrative. There wasn't a single opportunity to introduce any evidence that contradicted the essential government claims. There was no opportunity to challenge the autopsy findings or chain of custody questions related to the body, the autopsy report, the bullets and shells, or anything else. Without that, the "facts" you are speaking of have absolutely no weight with me. They are merely claims.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
215. Yes, actual evidence, and actual experts.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:12 PM
Dec 2013

For example, the experts who analyzed the bullet found in JFK's car and the bullet found in the stretcher, and found that the matched Oswald's guns. Were they part of the conspiracy too? How about the experts who pulled the fingerprints from the snipers nest. Also conspirators? The doctors who preformed the autopsy, and the photos they took. Conspirators who faked the photographs? The experts who testified that Oswald's handwriting was on the order form for the rifle. Co-conspirator? And so on.

And then the witnesses. For example, the three TSBD employees standing in the window below Oswald who testified that they heard three loud shots in the window above them (one of them, who was familiar with guns, also heard the rifle reloading and shell casings dropping). Part of the conspiracy too, I presume. And then the man who saw Oswald in the window, immediately gave an accurate report to the police, and then testified to the WC that he was sure Oswald was the one who fired the shot. I assume that the CIA placed this man in Dealey Plaza intentionally to give this false story. And the other TSBD employees that testified that they didn't see Oswald having lunch where he claimed he was? The witness who say him shoot JD Tippit? The guy who last saw him before the shooting, on the 6th floor of the TSBD? And so on.

It's easy to insist that all the evidence was faked until you start to look at the actual evidence, at which point it becomes apparent that such a conspiracy would require hundreds of people that all work for different organizations, not just different branches of government, but also doctors, TSBD employees, and random people standing in Dealey Plaza.

You are wrong about the autopsy. The findings have been reviewed multiple times by forensic pathologists in subsequent investigations. Fifteen forensic pathologists have unanimously confirmed the findings that both wounds in the back were entry wounds.

You are also wrong that there was no opportunity to introduce evidence to the contrary. There have been 50 years of opportunity, 50 years of people searching for even a shred of evidence of a conspiracy. There have been multiple subsequent investigations. But no evidence to the contrary has been found.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
263. This is the biggest argument against conspiracy, really.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:14 PM
Dec 2013

The conspiracy would have to be vast, would have to involve foreknowledge and collusion on the part of multiple agencies and actors, would have to be incredibly lucky (Ken O'Donnell confirms the Trade Mart for Kennedy's Dallas event...and it just happens to go past Oswald's workplace; Ruby is working for the Mafia, who are working with the CIA, and gets constant updates on Oswald's location...in an age before mobile phones...and enters the Dallas PD garage area about five seconds before Oswald steps out of the elevator, according to witnesses; a bullet is found on a stetcher at Parkland while Kennedy is dead in Trauma Room One and hasn't been autopsied, and Connally is in surgery, and no-one can know another bullet won't be found, which means the Parkland doctors working on Connally would have to be in on it, just in case)...it's an absurdly elaborate Rube Goldberg scenario where a hundred different things have to work in concert and go exactly right. (And anyone who thinks that the CIA, FBI, and Dallas Police were all conspiring to kill the president and cover the evidence and frame Oswald doesn't really know very much at all about interagency rivalries between FBI and CIA, or local police and Federal law enforcement, that make the whole thing vastly improbable).

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
272. You forgot to mention Jackie's involvement in the plot and cover-up.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:51 PM
Dec 2013

After all, it was Jackie who decided the autopsy would be done at Bethesda as JFK "was a Navy Man" as she put it that fateful day.

And we all know that they purposefully "botched" the autopsy at Bethesda, right?

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
108. What's wrong with believing in SOME conspiracies and believing the government sometimes
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:25 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:20 AM - Edit history (1)

tells us the truth?

Rule of thumb: go with the empirical evidence.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
125. Why are some things so black and white with some people here.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:42 PM
Dec 2013

I keep assuming that because this a Democratic web site, people would see the various shades of grey. I keep getting proved wrong.
Anyway, each and every item I mentioned is controversial. The government IS suspect in not being honest with us.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
129. Actually, the remaining 1% of the documents will be unsealed in 2017.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:52 PM
Dec 2013

Something you would know if you were interested in the facts rather than just searching for excuses to ignore them. The evidence available proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Oswald and Oswald alone shot JFK. But I'm looking forward to 2017 because at that point the CTers are going to have to find a new excuse to keep their heads buried in the sand.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
135. Unlike you, mind mind is not made up yet.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:30 AM
Dec 2013

Why did they seal some of the evidence for so long, if everything is so cut and dried?
I actually have a life and the JFK assassination does not take up all that much of it.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
139. Some of the info was sealed to protect intelligence methods/contacts.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:39 AM
Dec 2013

Some of the info sealed deals with mundane matters like the tax returns of various people who were part of the case.

Anyone expecting a smoking gun to support a conspiracy is going to be sorely disappointed in 2017.

The only thing we can be certain of is that the CTists won't be satisfied even with 100% of the documents released. They'll claim that info as destroyed, etc.

And, the CT fantasies will live on. They may even get a third wind.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
147. I wish I were so sure of shady 3rd parties with an agendas were on the up and up, as you are.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:51 AM
Dec 2013

But I'm not. I've learned to be cynical with those in power, be they police chiefs, mayors, congress critters, or those that contribute to their campaigns. You do not get to stay in power by being honest. Those with the money won't allow it.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
152. And with that broad brush, you've just indicted every Democrat serving in any political position
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:01 AM
Dec 2013

in the country.

Obama - elected to two terms is not an honest man. He's beholden to "shady third parties."

Same goes for Teddy, Boxer, Reid and everyone else. All beholden to big money, at least by your reasoning.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
191. Why does not Obama's campaign rhetoric agree with his governing?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:45 AM
Dec 2013

As for the rest, maybe you should pay more attention. Your choices for examples are running at 50/50. Even Reid can't be held up in too a high esteem. We need better.
Some politicians are just better than others, but our government is corrupt to the core and those that can't or don't recognize that fact are part of the problem.

I just noticed this:


Top 10 Ways the US is the Most Corrupt Country in the World by Juan Cole
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024124437

Western European countries do), the US has long political campaigns in which candidates are dunned big bucks for advertising. They are therefore forced to spend much of their time fundraising, which is to say, seeking bribes. All American politicians are basically on the take, though many are honorable people. They are forced into it by the system. House Majority leader John Boehner has actually just handed out cash on the floor of the House from the tobacco industry to other representatives.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
377. Gawd! It's such a tired whine to proclaim "unlike you, my mind isn't made up yet."
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:20 PM
Dec 2013

Why?

Because at some point, one would expect that your mind WILL be made up. And at that point, what does that make you? Why, just another "closed-minded person" who has made up their mind.

Unless, that is, you intend to go through life never reaching a conclusion about things like the JFK assassination. Of course, once you finally do decide and settle on one of the hundreds of JFK CTs out there as being THE way it actually happened, you will have rejected 99% of the CTs out there...which will make you just another "closed mind."

BTW - I think that you actually HAVE made up your mind - you believe there was a conspiracy. You're just unwilling to admit it in this forum because it would make you look closed minded. And once you yourself appear to be closed-minded, you've lost your cudgel for beating up on the reality based community.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
137. Agreed. 2017 will be to JFk CTists what 2012 was to Mayan Calendar end timers.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:33 AM
Dec 2013

Of course, once 100% of the documents have been released, and there's no smoking gun or anything new to refute the findings of the WC, the HSCA, the Rockefeller Commission, the Clark Panel and the Church Committee, the mantra will instantly become "how do we know everything has been released? The fact that the government says 100% has been released proves that 100% hasn't been released!!"

Next up: JFK was killed by sharks with frickin' laser beams on their heads!

DMessenger

(1 post)
77. Interesting info
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:34 PM
Dec 2013

Hi to all. First timer. While browsing last week I came across some interesting info. I think CT researcher, Leroy Blevins, may have found strong proof of additional shooters during the JFK assassination. He claims that two shooters can be seen firing at the motorcade from an area behind and to the left of were Zapruder was filming. Using the Orville Nix film and two other photos he was able to focus in on the two shooters, one hitting Kennedy in the head and the other striking Connelly. Blevins was also able to show the trajectories of the bullets. At first I was skeptical since it involved photo enhancement techniques and Blevins had also done some work debunking a Bigfoot video which seemed like a rather odd thing to care about. But later I came upon a youtube video that may have confirmed Blevins work since it predated Blevins research. It was out of Germany on a site called conspiracy scope. As the video began, it said Gerda Dunckel 2001. There was no talking, just annoying music. It showed the Nix film in slow motion, enlarging, focusing in, and repeating several areas, one of which was the location of Zapruder. I was hoping to use it to spot the shooters. What I saw were two streaks that matched the trajectories that Blevins gave. It was very fast and I never would have noticed them if it weren't for Blevins work. When it panned over other areas of the grassy noll I did not see any similar streaks. Reading the comments afterward,s I noticed there was no mention of the trajectories so this may be a new find. I don't know if Blevins work has already been debunked. If not, this work by Dunckel helps confirm it. Check it out.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
341. Correct...About 80 percent of the American people do NOT believe the Warren commission..
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:28 AM
Dec 2013

The rest are mostly foreigners or younger people who don't remember and don't care..It's ancient history to them.

That is, of course, their prerogative..Those who want to stifle OUR prerogatives can shove their ignorance and

indifference up their butts.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
94. It's such a good idea to open a discussion berating others' "fantasies"
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:13 PM
Dec 2013

after having selected a JFK avatar & a "stop Bush!" username to imply credibility.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
110. Sorry you can't spot a real D when you see one.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:31 PM
Dec 2013

My user name (Stopbush) should give you an idea about how long I've been a member of DU, ie: pretty much from the beginning.

My use of a JFK avatar is a reflection of my admiration for the man.

Your imagining that it isn't credible to believe the conclusions of the WC means that you believe RFK was not credible when he stated publicly in 1968 that he agreed entirely with the findings of the WC.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
116. I appreciate knowing more about your history
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:50 PM
Dec 2013

but I'm still not clear as to why you've chosen the JFK avatar while you are clearly impatient & angry with opinions that are different from yours. "A reflection of my admiration" could just as well be meant in a negative, mocking way.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
133. I always choose the JFK avatar for Nov-Dec. It's one way of remembering him.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:25 AM
Dec 2013

Once the new year rolls around, I'll go with something else.

I change my avatar 3-4 times a year.

BTW - I have never and will never question the Democratic cred of anybody who posts on DU. Why the CT crowd - and you in particular - choose to question whether someone is really a D because they accept the WCR is disappointing and a bit childish.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
145. It's not respectful, imo, to use his image specifically for the months
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:49 AM
Dec 2013

during which his assassination is going to be discussed when you have no tolerance for those who do believe in a bigger picture.

"It's one way of remembering him."

From your OP:

"I was prepared for the deluge of JFK CT posts at DU, what with the 50th anniversary of his death."

"Now, can the admins please move the JFK CT malarkey back into the creative thinking forum where it rightly belongs? The JFK anniversary is over..."


That is not an attitude that gives JFK respect from an admirer of his.







pacalo

(24,721 posts)
157. Use the "hide this thread" option instead of shutting down discussion that's important to others.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:14 AM
Dec 2013

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
161. Where have I shut down any discussion?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:20 AM
Dec 2013

I take great exception to your implying that I'm not a Democrat.

Ergo, you get the blah blah blah response, because you really don't deserve better than that.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
167. My OP simply asks that the CT discussions be moved back to where they once resided.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:33 AM
Dec 2013

I don't think they're GD fodder, any more than Entertainment or Offbeat topics belong in GD. I assume the people who run this website came up with those categories for a reason.

"Creative Speculation" sits in the "Offbeat" topics at DU. That's where one used to find JFK CT threads. What's wrong with moving them back there?

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
174. Your OP speaks for itself.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:52 AM
Dec 2013

With every additional reply, you continue to enlighten about your admiration for JFK. To label any discussion about the assassination of one of the country's most beloved (Democratic) presidents of our lifetime on a Democratic discussion board as "creative speculation" or "offbeat" goes against my principles as a lifelong Democrat. It's disrespectful to the nth degree to those of us who lived through that event.

 

HangOnKids

(4,291 posts)
154. Nailed it
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:04 AM
Dec 2013

SB seems to be doing quite a bit of spinning in his/her replies to you. I see you are paying attention pacalo, many thanks.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
164. From what I've seen, he makes it a point to disrupt every JFK thread,
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:26 AM
Dec 2013

& now he's written a whiny "Meta" OP because he's tired of making the rounds. Go figure.

Zen Democrat

(5,901 posts)
99. I have Tea Baggers and Lone Nutters in the same bag.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:35 PM
Dec 2013

The one labeled for lazy, unscholarly folk who accept what they are told by the authority they adhere to, without question, and belittle those who actually study and learn the facts.

And Lone Nutters, the facts are against you in every respect. All the evidence to convict Oswald proffered by the Dallas Police, District Attorney, and the FBI was poppycock.

Eisenhower appeared on TV on November 22, 1963 and said the American people would not be stampeded. They weren't. The Warren Commission tried, but failed horribly. Jim Haggerty, Eisenhower's press secretary, told CBS that there was no doubt that it was conspiracy to murder the President.

Believers in the Lone Nut with a Magic Bullet have let themselves be deceived. And I wonder how old they may be, because people who were alive at the time experienced that lies, the half-truths, the slippery stories that were true one minute and discarded the next. There were other people arrested that day. Their names weren't taken down. Because ... about six months had gone into preparing Oswald to be the patsy and his handlers in the CIA paraded him around to establish communist credentials. But he didn't do the shooting, didn't fire a gun, didn't shoot Tippett, and didn't go into the theater without paying. The guy who didn't pay went into the balcony. After Lee Oswald was arrested on the main floor, after going around and sitting by various people (looking for his contact?) he was brought out the front door of the theater to great fanfare. Later a man was brought down from the Balcony is a white t-shirt, was taken out the back into the alley where he was placed in a police car. People in the alley thought they had witnessed the arrest of Oswald. The man from the balcony was never brought in and booked for anything.

Read the Warren Commission. Earlene Roberts, Oswald's housekeeper at the S. Beckley rooming house, not only said that Oswald came in and quickly put on a jacket and left, she also testified that while Oswald was in his room, a police car pulled in front of the house and quickly honked twice -- tit-tit -- is how she described it. Why? And why didn't the lawyers on the commission pursue that juicy tidbit? There are a million questions in this rickety case that have never been answered, because there are no answers that wouldn't require the presence of at least a second gunman, if not a third.

You think that people like me are kooks? I think you deniers are a bunch of bullies who know nothing and are so condescending as to make me question your motives. Why do you feel this strongly about the case when you so adamantly deny the possibility of a conspiracy. A lot of brilliant people have believed in the impossibility of a lone nut acting alone - Bertrand Russell, for one.

Also, please disabuse yourself of this ridiculous that people who research the Warren Commission and the evidence in the Archives believe all the theories about a myriad of conspirators. That's BS. It was a CIA plot -- Dulles, Helms, Angleton put it together. The Joint Chiefs were in charge of the autopsy. The CIA and Chicago Mob were joined at the hip in the Western Hemisphere Division. Jack Ruby was a member of the Chicago outfit, he had been a gun-runner to Cuba, and he ran women, drugs and gambling with the Civellos and Campisis in Dallas. His top dancer at the Carousel, Jada Conforto, said Jack didn't like the Kennedys, especially Bobby. This was on TV and the videos are all out there.

All I needed to know the score is watch all the official documentaries last week. I've seen every video they showed, over and over. Except I've seen them in their entirety. When the video is snipped just at the point someone is going to do or say or show something that would be meaningful, I'm flabbergasted by the chutzpah. After all, there are millions of us --71% right now -- who don't believe a work of the Warren Commission.

I stand with those doubters like Commissioners Rep. Hale Boggs, Sen. Dick Russell and Sen. Cooper, and Lyndon Johnson. And apparently Earl Warren himself who had to be stiff-armed by LBJ to take the FBI report and issue it as the final verdict for the good of the country and to avoid 300 million people dying - or so he was persuaded, reluctantly.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
100. You know what human nature dictates?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:41 PM
Dec 2013

Among other things, it dictates that when you create an OP that's snide and insulting to a majority of members here, you're not going to get a good response. I expect you're beginning to understand that.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
127. who are you, and what in the holy fuck makes you think you can call a majority of us morons?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:49 PM
Dec 2013

Welcome to DU. What's your problem?

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
142. Good catch. 181 posts in 6 years, but he's deep into jurisprudence.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:46 AM
Dec 2013

How have you been? Hopefully that creepy little stalker has left you alone recently.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
103. You are correct.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:04 PM
Dec 2013

DU is much more willing to meekly swallow the official government story of what-ever than the DU of just a few years ago.

This is cause for celebration among the Ownership Class.
Others still "Question Authority".

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
347. That's because we have more members too young and too disinterested to care.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:31 AM
Dec 2013

It doesn't speak too well of them or their grasp of, or interest in history.

elias7

(4,006 posts)
106. I guess some people just need closure
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:08 PM
Dec 2013

Some of us don't. Some of us just don't like a story that doesn't smell right. Just because someone is suspicious of an official story, doesn't mean they're suspicious of all official stories. You don't have to lump my suspicions into a conspiracy theorist identity, and assume that since I don't feel settled with the official conclusions and they stand, I also don't believe we landed on the moon.

If you charicaturize me, you don't respect me. It bothers me that you're so sure of yourself that you have to place me there.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
117. Yes and no.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:58 PM
Dec 2013

True CTers will continue to be true CTers. Research in psychology has found that once people have truly bought into a certain belief, evidence to the contrary actually strengthens their false beliefs. And that has been very apparent in the CT discussions here.

However, what the JFK discussions here over the past few weeks have clearly demonstrated is that, evidence-wise, the CTers have no leg to stand on. Over and over, CTers have had to resort to talking vaguely about "evidence" that exists somewhere in the ethers, but by and large they have given up on actually trying to present such evidence. All of the main CT talking points (e.g. the head snap, the magic bullet, etc.) have been so thoroughly refuted that even the CTers have realized that a fact and reason-based debate is not favorable to them.

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
128. But there are so many possibilities that have never been ruled out! For example, maybe JFK faked
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:50 PM
Dec 2013

his own death to collect the insurance money. Or maybe Jack Ruby set the whole thing up to justify murdering Oswald later. Another possibility is that somebody downtown was firing a Carcano 91/38 into the air to celebrate a birthday or wedding, and through some freak accident the bullet hit Kennedy and Connally. Nor has anybody ever shown conclusively that Curtis LeMay wasn't on the sixth floor of the Book Depository at the time. And why was Officer Tippit ruled out as a suspect? Did Kennedy shoot himself? Free-thinkers will bravely continue to ask these questions until we get answers!

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
143. The problem with your little diatribe is that the difference between THIS issue and any other where
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:47 AM
Dec 2013

people discuss and speculate about things they feel have never been truly explained is that for some reason there is a small, extremist group that shows up on every forum where people are merely discussing THIS story and they devote endless hours of their time desperately trying to shut down any discussion of this tragedy.

Why does what other people find interesting to discuss, bother these people to the point of a pathological obsession with trying to shut them up?

And even more interesting is the fact that once this phenomenon was noticed, it did the OPPOSITE of what it was trying to do. MORE people became interested because of this extreme effort to silence people.

They have become part of the oddities that surround the JFK assassination themselves.

It is extremely disturbing behavior and we can only speculate on the purpose of it.

Seems to me that they must have a reason, no one does this kind of thing for no reason, no one is this obsessed over something for no reason.

I believe there is a reason. And the more they try to silence people the more certain I am that there are important people around who have something very important that they want to keep secret.



struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
171. Holy McMoly! Some people are disagreeing with others on the internet! I bet they're paid by the CIA!
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:40 AM
Dec 2013

I guess I shouldn't have to explain, but what I mean, of course, is that some are paid, not that others are. Anyway, it's pretty good proof there's something fishy about the Kennedy assassination!

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
176. Some people just really love to try and push other people's buttons
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:54 AM
Dec 2013

I am getting the hang of learning to ignore them. You, however, posted a truly thoughtful post.

Jacqueline Kennedy did not believe the official Government response. She went out of the Country to hire some of the best investigators she could find. Eventually, the report she was given as a result of that investigation will be released to the public. It will not be in my lifetime, but a careful reading and watching of documentaries over the last few decades have convinced me to move to a place where I feel I have a good understanding of what happened.

I think that is what most of us want, those who do not accept the Warren Commission findings, some understanding of what probably happened despite that report and for the historical record to be accurate. I do believe it is too late to hold those directly involved legally accountable since most of the primary executioners no longer walk this earth, but it is very important to lift the veil of the true conspiracy, that coverup attempting to deceive the American public and those abroad, with anything less than the truth.

Sam

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
184. Fifty years after the event, no alternative theory, supported by clear evidence, has appeared:
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:09 AM
Dec 2013

Oswald had earlier attempted the assassination of General Walker; and after the Kennedy assassination, Oswald's erratic movements (witnessed by a number of people, some of whom actually knew him) culminated with the murder of Tippit -- which rather clearly indicates he had some homicidal tendencies

The carbine used to kill Kennedy was Oswald's and was fired from the sixth floor of his place of employment, where it was found, together with other objects bearing Oswald's prints, such as the long paper bag he had brought to work that morning, claiming it contained curtain rods

Alleged problems with the so-called "magic bullet" have been discredited, both by very careful computer modeling and by various careful forensic recreations; the theory of a "grassy knoll" shooter is inconsistent with the wounds suffered by Connally and Kennedy

Anyone who can piece together a coherent alternative theory, actually supported by evidence, will make quite a splash -- but fifty years later, it is just a fact no one has yet succeeded in doing so



Samantha

(9,314 posts)
219. I think Oswald participated but he was not the only sniper
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:47 PM
Dec 2013

What the Warren Commission failed to prove was that he acted alone. It is very difficult, usually impossible, to prove a negative, and they were unsuccessful in doing so. I believe Oswald fired two shots at Kennedy and missed both times. The second sniper also in the 6th floor depository almost simultaneously with Oswald's first shot fired the second shot, hitting Kennedy from the back. Oswald fired a third shot and hit Connelly. A sniper on the grassy knoll, stationed there in case the two shooters in the book depository failed to accomplish their mission, the killing of the President, saw when the limo approached Kennedy was woulded but still erect, fired the kill shot from the front. This was the shot that exploded President Kennedy's head. All four shots were fired in less than 7 seconds.

Other prints were also found in the sixth floor, but prints the FBI found but deemed not clear enough to be matched, were left unidentified. 35 years after the shooting, one of those prints was matched by two expert independent fingerprint analysts (one in the United States, one abroad) who were given the prints blindly, meaning no clue as to the case which was being investigated, and no suggestion as to whom the fingerprints belonged). Both came back with the name Mac Wallace, a long-time hit man who took assignments from Clark, Johnson's long-time attorney. He was a hit man, and he was later convicted of another murder.

The theory of the grassy knoll has not been discredited to my satisfaction. Several eye witnesses said there was a shot from that area, and immediately after the incident agents ran toward that spot. One eye witness who said two shots were fired almost simultaneously and he thought there was a shot from the grassy knoll was dismissed. And the theory of a shooter on the knoll is not inconsistent with the wounds.

I think it is totally fine for each of us to process what we feel is a very possible alternative, that is our option if we discard the findings of the official commission. Probably none of us will live long enough to see the further emerging of the literal truth of President Kennedy's assassination. But I do feel it is important when we discuss this issue to do so without overreacting to those with opposing opinions. (Not that you did so, your post was polite and reasoned).

I think it is important to note that Jacqueline Kennedy did not accept the Warren Commission's report. She contracted with an investigative agency abroad to quietly investigate her husband's death. She did receive a final report from the, which report she sealed for 50 years. I believe that means 50 years not from her passing, but 50 years from the death of the last of her children. I believe she did that to protect the security of the Kennedy children. But it raises the question if that foreign investigative group agreed with the Warren Commission's findings, why the need to seal the report for 50 some years?

Additionally, Bobby Kennedy changed the plans he had to go back to Massachusetts, retiring from politics and picking up on his law practice again. He made these plans before the President died. After President Kennedy's death, we saw a reversal in course. While he publicly stood behind the Commission's findings, he privately believed the only way he would ever learn the truth of his brother's assassination was to win the Presidency, a spot from where he could access all documents and evidence not released to the public, and he could wield the power of the President to gather additional information. Why did he do that? Were he and Jacqueline simply conspiracy theorists themselves or were they grieving relatives who simply had to learn the truth about what happened that day John Kennedy died?

Sam

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
241. Jacqueline Kennedy told the Warren Commission she remembered hearing two shots, not four
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 05:51 PM
Dec 2013

Friday, June 5, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOHN F. KENNEDY
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots?
Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this <indicating with hand at neck>. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember. And I read there was a third shot. But I don't know. Just those two.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
309. Maybe she did only remember hearing two
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:04 AM
Dec 2013

Here is part of what Connally said in his testimony:

"Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot, In the first place, don't know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached

135

that far, and after I heard that shot, I had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before I felt anything.
It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot."

He probably did not hear the first shot that hit in front of the limo, perhaps because it was traveling faster than the speed of sound (just my guess) and/or because it was fired almost simultaneously with the second shot. The second shot is the one he describes as the first in which he starts to turn around to see if the President had been hit (and the President was indeed hit by that second shot). What he describes as he turns around to see if the President had been hit before he could see anything, he was wounded (that was the third shot but he describes it as the second.) The fourth shot was the kill shot which took the top of the President's head off, and it was fired from the front. This is the shot Connally thinks was the third shot.

Ms. Kennedy in her testimony quoted above said at first she thought she heard three shots (and she probably did, not hearing the first one which hit nothing.)

Connally mentions several times the rapidly of the shots. The four shots were actually fired within 7 seconds. To tell you the truth, I cannot imagine anyone actually involved in such a horrific event having the capacity to literally count the number of shots. I believe they testified from what they thought they remembered (which for sure is a lot better than I could have done.)

Sam

struggle4progress

(118,290 posts)
318. She also says she first realized something was wrong when Connally began yelling, at which point
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:50 AM
Dec 2013

she looked over and saw her husband was clutching at his throat: that's entirely consistent with the idea that Connally was hit at the same moment as Kennedy

BootinUp

(47,156 posts)
334. Have you ever been brave enough to watch this?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:42 AM
Dec 2013

I suspect you are not. BEWARE, there is plenty of information to follow that explains what CT'ers call the "magic" bullet.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
384. I am reluctant to click on this because I am not a braveheart
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:48 PM
Dec 2013

I was 12 years old when President Kennedy was assassinated. He was the first president whose campaign I followed, and I really, really wanted him to be elected. I lived in a Republican, Protestant home, so I was the odd man out on politics. When he passed away, I was in school and the teacher announced rather bluntly he had been shot and killed, and also that Lyndon Johnson had been shot and it was not known if he would survive. I sat there in shock.

When I arrived home that day, the television played incessantly covering the events of the day, but for some reason there was no discussion. The next day, I started clipping out newspaper articles covering that sad event and pasting them in a scrapbook. I framed each one with colored paper. I pull that out periodically and after getting past how childish it looks, I remember that was the only outlet for the grief I felt for both the President and his family. I do remember when Oswald stepped out and uttered the words, " I am just a patsy" I believed him.

Over the years, I have read a number of books about Jack Kennedy, Jacqueline, John Jr., collected a couple of Caroline's books and for decades collected books on the President's assassination. I have watched Gerald Posner's presentations and found them wanting.

So today, I am constantly reading when reputable books are published but I no longer watch the footage. It still hurts to view the film and feels again like it just happened.

I had a h*ll of lot of respect for John Kennedy, and the only regret I have is that the U.S. Government failed to report the truth of what happened that day to the American public. I do understand it feels it is important to preserve its standing to the rest of the world, and in order to do that it must censor certain information, but in doing so when it protects those who have committed criminal acts and allows them to go unpunished, well, I just have no words....

What exactly is your opinion of what is contained at the link (words I can handle -- it is the visuals that get to me).

Thanks.

Sam

BootinUp

(47,156 posts)
386. This video link does not show
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 12:21 AM
Dec 2013

the fatal 3rd shot that killed the President. So it is not a graphical video that would be hard to watch in that way. It might be hard to watch/absorb the info for someone who is not ready to consider that the Warren Commission got the shooting facts essentially right all along. I leave it to you then, its an opportunity to expand your horizons a little.

Thank you for sharing the stories about how it affected you and how you and others dealt with it. Very moving.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
192. Nice! An uber-conspiracy theory.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:08 AM
Dec 2013

Not only did the MIC/CIA/KGB/FBI/Castro/Anti-Castro/Mafia plot such a masterful conspiracy that no trace of evidence has been found despite 50 years of intense effort, but even to this day they are still hiring people to spread misinformation, many of whom weren't born until years after the event.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
134. Why do you care, stopbush? The Magic Bullet believers post all they want.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:25 AM
Dec 2013

No where have I seen DUers try to shut down their discussion. Many DUers will disagree and state why they don't believe the Warren Commission lone nut theory, an obvious conspiracy to obstruct justice based on the physical evidence alone. Yet, they don't tell Warren Commission supporters not to discuss the issue.

I've started thousands of posts. The only time I see your name on them in reply is when I post about the assassination of President Kennedy.

Then you post to shut down discussion, often by demanding any discussion of Dallas be moved to an obscure DU forum where a few committed DUers swarm like a nest of disturbed hornets.

Or, on occasion, you'll haul out something from John McAdams to buttress obsolete theories like the Magic Bullet on which the Warren Commission relies for its entire case of Oswald as the Lone Gunman.

The difference between you and me isn't what theory we believe, however. It's whether we believe every one should have the right to be heard, even if we don't agree with what they write.

Standing up for the right to be heard is democratic. Telling someone to shut up and threatening them with censure or worse is more than bullying, it's fascistic.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
195. You are most welcome, HangOnKids!
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:25 AM
Dec 2013

I've posted several dozen OPs (out of 38,000 posts) on the assassination of President Kennedy over past 12 years on DU. If there's nothing more than "Oswald did it" why do these cause so much angst? Is it mentioning Poppy was in Dallas on Nov.22, 1963?

For those interested, here are the OPs I started on the sad anniversary and the Duquesne Conference over the last few weeks:

Octafish to attend JFK assassination conference. Do you think JFK still matters?

JFK Conference: Amazing Day of Information and Connecting with Good People

After JFK Conference, when I got home, I felt like RFK.

JFK Conference: Bill Kelly introduced new evidence - adding Air Force One tape recordings

JFK Conference: Rex Bradford detailed the historic importance of the Church Committee

JFK Conference: Lisa Pease Discussed the Real Harm of Corrupt Soft Power

JFK Conference: James DiEugenio made clear how Foreign Policy changed after November 22, 1963

JFK Conference: Mark Lane Addressed the Secret Government’s Role in the Assassination

JFK Conference: David Talbot named Allen Dulles as 'the Chairman of the Board of the Assassination'

Noah's Ark - Nov. 22, 1963

Seven Days in May -- tonight on TCM

Machine Gun Mouth

Thankfully they are of interest to many DUers, Democrats and those who want to see Justice for JFK. I post on DU because I don't want the BFEE warmongers of the "Money trumps peace" crowd to continue writing the nation's history, as they've tried to do over the past 50 years. Thanks for being one of those, HangOnKids.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
149. I care because people like you distort the record and spout lies about the evidence.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:55 AM
Dec 2013

Your latest post is proof of this. Case in point:

Anybody who has actually read the WCR knows that the WC did not "base its entire case against Oswald as the lone gunman" on the single bullet fact. It was ONE piece of evidence that corroborated mountains of other evidence against Oswald. The single bullet fact explains the wounds to JFK and Oswald. The FBI's quick investigation had a slightly different explanation: it found that all three bullets fired by Oswald struck JFK and Connally. The FBI modified their assessment once new evidence came to light. Both investigations fingered Oswald as the lone gunman.

You can go on believing the single bullet theory is obsolete. It doesn't change the science behind it that proves it to be a fact.

The HSCA investigation fingered Oswald as the sole shooter to have hit JFK & Connally. The HSCA reaffirmed that Oswald's bullets killed JFK. The HSCA confirmed the single bullet fact.

I only cite John McAdams the same way you cite Mary Farrell, ie: as a source who has links to various gov documents. The difference with McAdams is that he doesn't charge people a fee to read his links, which Mary Farrell does.

And you're wrong to say that I don't think people like you have a right to be heard. You do. That said, I do believe that one needs to have some perspective on what you are saying when you're being heard. I find the JFK CTs to be on the level of arguing that Santa Claus exists, and I regard those "opinions" on that level.

The minute you can present objective, empirical evidence to support your CT claims - as opposed to the usual CT BS and endless rounds of cut-n-paste whack-a-mole - then I'm all ears. Until then, it's a bit like dealing with children who feel that an opinion has the same weight as a fact, simply because it's their opinion, and they voice it often and loudly.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
166. Yes. Anyone who is a parent notices the make believe mindset when it arises
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:29 AM
Dec 2013

in adults.

Parenting is as tough as it is interesting.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
194. The Single Bullet Theory is just that, a THEORY.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:15 AM
Dec 2013

The entire Warren Commission case hinges on the notion being accepted as fact. But, when tested, it's just not so.



Warren Commissioner Rep. Gerald Ford (later vice president and the nation's first unelected president who pardoned the unindicted Watergate co-conspirator Richard Nixon) felt the magic bullet so nececessary to the Warren Commission report's public acceptance he altered the report on his own.

I don't know about your house, but in my home that's called a lie.

Gerald Ford's Terrible Fiction



So, go get mad all you want. Insult away all day long. Like I care. Those are the facts. And you are on the wrong side of them.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
201. The theory of gravity is also just a theory...
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:35 AM
Dec 2013

Like the single bullet theory, it is backed by an overwhelming about of evidence though.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
206. Sure.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:49 AM
Dec 2013

But when bullets from the same batch as allegedly used by Oswald go through anything more dense than cotton wadding, they emerge deformed.



JFK Exhibit F-294

Photo of 5 bullets fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle: (left to right) the "magic bullet" (CE 399), two bullets fired into cotton wadding(CE 572), a bullet fired through a goat rib (CE 853), and a bullet fired through the wrist of a human cadaver (CE 856).

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=45739

That's the official description, which I believe contains an error I do not have time at present to track down. Going from memory, FWIW: Rather than going through a goat rib, CE 853 I recall was fired into water. CE 856 went through the goat rib.

PS: Instead of arguing with me about the magic bullet, I'd ask you to think about what's happened over the past 50 years: We've gone from having a President who believed his first job was to keep the peace to having a pretzeldent who said "Money trumps peace."

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
211. Sigh. The "magic" bullet was also deformed.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:00 PM
Dec 2013

It was not pristine. It went through a lot of soft tissue before hitting any bone, which means it was not travelling at nearly full speed when it hit the bone. This is why it was less deformed than a bullet fired directly at a goat rib or a human cadaver. But it was still deformed, and had lost lead (slightly more lead than the total weight of the fragments found in governor Connelly's arm). Numerous firearms experts have testified to the fact that the shape the bullet was in was entirely consistent with it's trajectory.

Here's CE399 from the rear. Clearly deformed.


And the thing is, since you spend a lot of time on the JFK assassination, you are obviously aware of everything I've said, and yet you choose to ignore it, and bring up the bullet fired at full speed into a wrist bone as a point of comparison. I think it's time to stop treating you as misinformed and start treating you as overtly dishonest.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
213. 'I think it's time to stop treating you as misinformed and start treating you as overtly dishonest.'
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:11 PM
Dec 2013

Show where I'm dishonest. Otherwise don't smear me.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
216. You are dishonest when you introduce a bullet fired directly into
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:16 PM
Dec 2013

the wrist of a human cadaver as a point of comparison to CE399, which first went through many inches of soft tissue, so it's velocity was much lower when it hit bone.

Either
(A) you weren't aware that CE399 first went through a lot of soft tissue, or this didn't occur to you, or
(B) you were aware of this, but decided to withhold this information, and to present the cadaver bullet as a point of comparison, with the full knowledge that it was an invalid and misleading comparison.

(B) is dishonesty. And you've been studying the assassination for far too long for (A).

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
217. You're the poster who got angry at me for not explaining an OP written by zappaman.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:30 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4096026

In answer to your latest canard: If all that is so, there would be blood, tissue, clothing fibers, etc. on CE399. Yet, none was found on it. It was pristine.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
218. Umm, no. I was asking you to back up your claims with evidence.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:44 PM
Dec 2013

Which you declined to do. And I'm happy with that result, it is yet another demonstration that when it comes down to actual evidence, CTers have no leg to stand on.

In answer to your latest canard: If all that is so, there would be blood, tissue, clothing fibers, etc. on CE399. Yet, none was found on it. It was pristine.

Aha. So you are again dodging the question of whether you know that CE399 passed through soft tissue, or whether you intentionally and dishonestly brought up the cadaver bullet as a point of comparison. Looks like my dishonesty hypothesis is gaining strength by the post.

I've already shown that the bullet was not "pristine" by any stretch of the imagination, using photographic evidence. As far as your speculations about what else you think should have happened to CE399, first of all, since you have demonstrated your dishonesty with the cadaver thing, I doubt many people will trust these other claims of yours, but the fact remains that ballistics experts (as opposed to internet CTers) who examined the bullet concluded that it's condition was consistent with the wounds it caused.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
222. No, it's a scientific theory, which is NOT conjecture.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:41 PM
Dec 2013

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.[1][2] Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive and explanatory force.[3][4]

The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, and to its elegance and simplicity (Occam's razor). As additional scientific evidence is gathered, a scientific theory may be rejected or modified if it does not fit the new empirical findings, leading to a more accurate theory. In certain cases, the less-accurate unmodified scientific theory can still be treated as a theory if it is useful (due to its sheer simplicity) as an approximation under specific conditions (e.g. Newton's laws of motion as an approximation to special relativity at velocities which are small relative to the speed of light).

Scientific theories are testable and make falsifiable predictions. They describe the causal elements responsible for a particular natural phenomenon, and are used to explain and predict aspects of the physical universe or specific areas of inquiry (e.g. electricity, chemistry, astronomy). Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[3] This is significantly different from the common usage of the word "theory", which implies that something is a guess (i.e., unsubstantiated and speculative).[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

In the JFK case, the single bullet theory was confirmed through scientific testing and corroborated by the forensic and ballistic evidence. That's why it's not conjecture.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
197. He is admitting defeat in a round about way.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:28 AM
Dec 2013

His propaganda is ignored by almost everyone here, so this is an attempt to get attention by grand standing. Pathetic, but par the course for the usual suspects. Thankfully they are down to a handful now.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
202. Thank you, Rex.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:37 AM
Dec 2013

You and I have exchanged ideas on DU from as far back as I can remember. On occasion, including discussing Dallas and its aftermath, we have disagreed.

Not once in all those years, however, did we treat one another with contempt or ridicule. Nor did we attempt to shut down discussion of one another's point of view.

Why? Shutting down the free exchange of ideas is un-democratic.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
204. Authoritarians cannot stand a free society or an open forum.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:47 AM
Dec 2013

The open contempt tells me all I need to know about him and what his agenda is here on DU.

Yeah you and I don't agree on all the details about JFK and some other things, but we can both agree to be civil to each other and discuss why we disagree in terms that are palatable to both of us. Not so for the thread starter. It is his way or the highway.

If anything, I see MORE talk about JFK now then just last year. People want to know the truth and are too jaded by the umpteenth time our govt is caught in an embarrassing scandal, to believe the WC.

I remember both you and I rolling our eyes when they put Lee Hamilton on the 9/11 Commission. Another whitewash by another pro. SIGH.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
208. Lookit what the ''authoritative'' JFK debunker John McAdams keeps on his website...
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:53 AM
Dec 2013

...the BFEE Big Blueprint, as it were:

Know your BFEE: A Crime Line of Treason

Some DUers don't believe there's a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy or even a Bush Family Evil Empire.

Hey, I'm a Democrat and respect other's opinions and views.

But I do believe in the VRWC and BFEE, perhaps more accurately termed the Bush Transnational Criminal Enterprise. Here's why:

Bush Crime Line

• Vietnam
• Bay of Pigs
• Chile
• Watergate
• October Surprise
• El Salvador
• Reagan Survives Hinckley and Bush
• NAZI Ethnics for Reagan-Bush
• Voodoo Economics
• INSLAW/Promis
• Haiti
• Iraq-gate / Banca Nazionale del Lavoro arms to Saddam
• BCCI International Money Laundering for Terrorists & Intelligence Community arming Dr AQ Khan
• Savings & Loan scandal in general and Silverado in particular
• Iran-contra Guns/Drugs/Martial Law
• Gulf War I Glaspie Gives Go-Ahead
• Selection 2000 Shreds US Constitution
• Tax Cuts for UltraRich
• Criminal Justice Department
• Suicidal Environmental Policy
• ENRON Energy Policy
• 9-11 Criminal Negligence, at best; Treason, most likely
• Illegal Iraq Invasion
• Paperless Selection 2004

It’s interesting in reviewing the above list, just how much ultra-right, conservative Republican leadership has really been. More than a listing of criminality, the list demonstrates there have been many treasonous activites against “We the People” through “business opportunities” in the finance, energy, and defense industries.

There is one FAMILY name that runs through all the history, the four decades since the JFK administration. Since the very hour of President Kennedy’s death, and through the list of sinister events and unrelenting criminality noted above — a record of infamy stretching back 41 years today — appears the name George Herbert Walker Bush, a tradition continued by his son, George Walker Bush, beard of the BFEE.



DUers: Add, Discuss, Rip -- Whatever. I'd love to learn what y'all think, have to say and believe.

SOURCE http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/blog/DU_Bush.htm

Original post on DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2748315

PS: Note Prof. McAdams even took the time to download and host the image. That's real class, IMFO.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
210. That the Bush family funded the Nazis was a real eye opener.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:58 AM
Dec 2013

Granted someone will come along and fall on their sword for the BFEE and correct me that the Bush family unintentionally helped fund the Nazis.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

Of course this if from the guardian, so some here will cry foul.

brush

(53,784 posts)
170. You're still at it with the etched in stone lone gunman theory?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:37 AM
Dec 2013

Check this link about all the many mysterious deaths of people investigating the hard-to-believe lone gunman theory then see if you still "believe" it.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOpje8kixcV-skbCZOOiNIw/videos?view=0&sort=dd&live_view=500&flow=list

Wash. state Desk Jet

(3,426 posts)
189. Have you decided the issue should be put to bed ?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 06:54 AM
Dec 2013

The chief decision makers of the media think they can do that too ! Turned the corner indeed but there is nothing wrong with reviewing what is in the rear view mirror from time to time or even very often. Perhaps thinking about it in passing is a more appropriate way to put that. Putting it to bed seems more-so in line with forget about it,it's history ,move on. The constitution as a matter of example is a historic document written many years ago and yet it keeps popping up in topic -the wingers as you know keep referring back to it !
Sarah Palin likes to ring the old bell from time to time ! Who does she think she's fool'en ,who knows !

There are in fact questions remaining.And those questions are viewed in passing always.
The run on threads will phase out but the issues will not be put to sleep.

That's just my opinion ,no offense intended toward yer request.



 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
196. So you lost, bout time you admitted defeat.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:27 AM
Dec 2013

Just cannot stand up to all the facts anymore so you wrote a thread to admit defeat, congrats it takes a big person to do so.

zappaman

(20,606 posts)
205. UNREC
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:47 AM
Dec 2013

Not sure why you thought it necessary to post such obvious flamebait.
Just as bad as all the flamebait porn threads, IMO.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
214. I hear they have no porn in Denmark.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:11 PM
Dec 2013

JFK, guns, porn and pit bulls at the Olive Garden. I think I smell a thememe.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
223. Well good! I was getting worried the Moon people
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:46 PM
Dec 2013

were somehow controlling our tides...and Bill O' Reilly's one active brain cell. Besides, I bet you anything the Moon people have WMDs!

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
207. Actually, the fervor with which any talk of alternate explanations is stomped on is very interesting
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:51 AM
Dec 2013

And the CT label slapped on any questioning of ANY official feed is getting hilarious and for me is having the effect of making me wonder why so angry?
Why care if people have questions about or disbelieve an Official Government Story?
GroupThink is never going to happen. What other people believe about the Kennedy assassination does not really matter.
Why, the anger with which alternative theories are met with is so bizarre - it is almost as if to disbelieve the Official Story is to disbelieve the government and this somehow has morphed into criticising Obama or something. It doesn't make any sense.
Same thing when people want to know if they are eating GMO's or take supplements or don't want nukes. Hysterical shrillness ensues.

whatchamacallit

(15,558 posts)
212. What's worse is that those who are pathologically incapable of questioning authority
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:09 PM
Dec 2013

love to call the rest of us crazy.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
226. Questioning "authority" is one thing, but believing in conspiracies where NONE exist
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:53 PM
Dec 2013

is something else.

The longer people cling to JFK conspiracy "theories," the dumber they look, frankly.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
228. It's as STUPID as ignoring the Mafia-CIA plots to KILL Castro.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:10 PM
Dec 2013

And to think CIA OFFICIALS lied to President Kennedy about that.
And lied to the Warren Commission about that.
And lied to Congress and the American people about that.

All that is now in the government's documentary record, in public thanks to Oliver Stone's "JFK."

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
232. Who is ignoring those plots?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:42 PM
Dec 2013

I am simply unconvinced by the evidence you present that the dots you are trying to connect actually connect.

And although Oliver Stone makes a good movie on occasion, his credentials as a researcher and historian are...not even.

I thought you said we should not trust government's documentary record? You know the government's documentary record overwhelmingly says LHO acted alone.

You confuse me Octa.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
243. Then why not just ignore these kind of threads?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 06:46 PM
Dec 2013

We are the media!? Good one! So which affiliate do you work for?

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
249. Because I like free speech. Unlike you and, apparently, the OP.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 07:59 PM
Dec 2013

And I like to learn about the JFK assassination.

And we are the media.

Here watch.

Kick.

You wanna kick it up and be part of the media too. Go ahead. Make my day.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
265. You mean the Kennedy plots to kill Castro?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:18 PM
Dec 2013

Or are you forgetting that Operation Mongoose had Presidential authorisation and that Robert Kennedy was in overall control of the operation? All of that's a matter of public record, too.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
291. DULLES entered into the contract with the MAFIA in 1960.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:43 PM
Dec 2013

Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles, in 1960 "serving" under President Dwight D. Eisenhower and his very active VP Richard Nixon, wanted Cuban revolutionary leader Fidel Castro dead. Being a true gentleman who never gets his own hands dirty, Dulles ordered his the agency to bring in outside help -- "cut outs" -- for the job. So, through their middleman, Howard Hughes employee Robert Maheu, CIA approached "Uncle Johnny," "Mr. Gold" and "Joe."



How the CIA Enlisted the Chicago Mob to Put a Hit on Castro

Ever wonder about the sanity of America's leaders? Take a close look at perhaps the most bizarre plot in U.S. intelligence history

By Bryan Smith
Chicago Magazine, November 2007

EXCERPT...

By September 1960, the project was proceeding apace. Roselli would report directly to Maheu. The first step was a meeting in New York. There, at the Plaza Hotel, Maheu introduced Roselli to O'Connell. The agent wanted to cover up the participation of the CIA, so he pretended to be a man named Jim Olds who represented a group of wealthy industrialists eager to get rid of Castro so they could get back in business.

"We may know some people," Roselli said. Several weeks later, they all met at the Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami. For years, the luxurious facility had served as the unofficial headquarters for Mafioso leaders seeking a base close to their gambling interests in Cuba. Now, it would be the staging area for the assassination plots.

At a meeting in one of the suites, Roselli introduced Maheu to two men: Sam Gold and a man Roselli referred to as Joe, who could serve as a courier to Cuba. By this time, Roselli was on to O'Connell. "I'm not kidding," Roselli told the agent one day. "I know who you work for. But I'm not going to ask you to confirm it."

Roselli may have figured out that he was dealing with the CIA, but neither Maheu nor O'Connell realized the rank of mobsters with whom they were dealing. That changed when Maheu picked up a copy of the Sunday newspaper supplement Parade, which carried an article laying out the FBI's ten most wanted criminals. Leading the list was Sam Giancana, a.k.a. "Mooney," a.k.a. "Momo," a.k.a. "Sam the Cigar," a Chicago godfather who was one of the most feared dons in the country—and the man who called himself Sam Gold. "Joe" was also on the list. His real name, however, was Santos Trafficante—the outfit's Florida and Cuba chieftain.

Maheu alerted O'Connell. "My God, look what we're involved with," Maheu said. O'Connell told his superiors. Questioned later before the 1975 U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (later nicknamed the Church Committee after its chairman, Frank Church, the Democratic senator from Idaho), O'Connell was asked whether there had ever been any discussion about asking two men on the FBI's most wanted list to carry out a hit on a foreign leader.

"Not with me there wasn't," O'Connell answered.

"And obviously no one said stop—and you went ahead."

"Yes."

"Did it bother you at all?"

"No," O'Connell answered, "it didn't."

CONTINUED...

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/November-2007/How-the-CIA-Enlisted-the-Chicago-Mob-to-Put-a-Hit-on-Castro/index.php?cparticle=4&siarticle=3



Why repeat the Big Lie, Spider Jerusalem?
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
292. Operation Mongoose was authorised in November 1961 by JFK.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:49 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.marxists.org/history/cuba/subject/cia/mongoose/c-project.htm

Robert Kennedy was in overall control of Operation Mongoose. These are matters of record. Why do you continue to lie about the actual record and actions of JFK and his brother?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
343. So what? JFK ordered Castro assassination program to stop.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:53 AM
Dec 2013
http://www.jfklancer.com/cuba/castroplots.html

Why do you keep repeating what E. Howard Hunt and the Dulles Secret Team say?

Hunt planted fake cables in his White House safe to make it look like JFK ordered Diem assassination.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=amid0971colsonfake

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
345. Funny, that isn't what Desmond FitzGerald thought
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:03 AM
Dec 2013

He was meeting with Rolando Cubela in Paris on 22 November '63 to discuss arrangements for delivering a rifle to Havana for a hit on Castro: http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/castro_print.htm

Their first meeting took place on October 29th 1963. FitzGerald explained he had been sent by Robert Kennedy. To further convince the assassin of his bona fides, FitzGerald wrote a "signal" into a Presidential speech, a phrase that described the Castro regime as a "small band of conspirators" that needed to be "removed" which would serve as an unambiguous alert to Cubela when President Kennedy himself delivered those very words, which he did in Miami on November 18th. The next meeting, where FitzGerald would deliver a weapon, was scheduled in Paris.


It was LBJ who ordered the Castro assassination programme to stop, not JFK.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
351. The same Desmond Fitzgerald who lied when he met Mafia-hired killer Rolando Cubela?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:43 AM
Dec 2013

The CIA officer claimed to be an official emissary for Robert F. Kennedy, but, he wasn't. Then he personally handed Cubela the CIA-crafted poison pen with which to kill Fidel Castro. The date was Nov. 22, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Two_Tracks_on_Cuba

Interesting how Cubela, code-named AM/LASH, was trusted. The guy, like many of those working to overthrow Castro, really was a double-agent working for Castro.

Gets complicated. One thing stands out: President Kennedy was trying to make peace with Castro at the time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002170232

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
354. Lied at the direction of Richard Helms
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:18 PM
Dec 2013

who gave approval for FitzGerald to speak in RFK's name. (Which illustrates the problem of not letting the left hand know what the right is doing.)

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
246. Colonel Oliver North said something along those very same lines to the Tower Commission.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 07:12 PM
Dec 2013

"but believing in conspiracies where NONE exist is something else..."


Colonel Oliver North said something along those very same lines to the Tower Commission.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
227. Evidence isn't authority
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:09 PM
Dec 2013

We don't need to trust authority when we have evidence. There is overwhelming evidence that Oswald killed Kennedy.

In reality, it is many of the CT'ers here that are more the authoritarians. They're under the impression that opinion must come from authorities, not realizing that some people can draw conclusions from the evidence all by themselves.

Zen Democrat

(5,901 posts)
257. There was no evidence because there was no chain of custody on the so-called "evidence."
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:19 PM
Dec 2013

And there was potential evidence in Dallas that was sent to the FBI and came back changed if significant ways. In the case of pictures and films, there are examples of both that were "inadvertently" destroyed in Washington. There's no stinking evidence.

The things that sound like they could be evidence, such as the purported threatening note Oswald wrote to the FBI in Dallas, were intentionally destroyed by Agent Hosty. He ripped it, burned it, and flushed the remains down the toilet. Why destroy "evidence" that would make Oswald look guilty? Many believe it was the note that informant Oswald delivered to the FBI on the 17th warning that the assassination would be in Dallas on the 22nd. There was an FBI teletype that went out that night warning of just that. The copy to the New Orleans FBI office survived a national destruction of documents campaign.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
261. Simply wrong...again. Anyone surprised?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:55 PM
Dec 2013

1968 Panel Review of Photographs, X-Ray Films,
Documents and Other Evidence Pertaining to the
Fatal Wounding of President John E Kennedy on
November 22, 1963, in Dallas, Texas


At the request of The Honorable Ramsay Clark, Attorney General of
the United States, four physicians (hereafter sometimes referred
to as The Panel) met in Washington, DC on February 26 and 27 to
examine various photographs, X-ray films documents and other
evidence pertaining to the death of President Kennedy, and to
evaluate their significance in relation to the medical
conclusions recorded in the Autopsy Report on the body of
President Kennedy signed by Commander J. J. Humes, Medical Corps,
US Navy; Commander J. Thornton Boswell, Medical Corps, US Navy
and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, Medical Corps, US Army and in the
Supplemental Report signed by Commander Humes.

These appear in the Warren Commission Report at pages 538 to
545.

The four physicians constituting The Panel were:

1) Carnes, William H., MD, Professor of Pathology,
University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT, Member of Medical
Examiner's Commission, State of Utah, nominated by Dr. J. E.
Wallace Sterling, President of Stanford University.

2) Fisher, Russell S., MD, Professor of Forensic Pathology,
University of Maryland and Chief Medical Examiner of the State of
Maryland, Baltimore, MD, nominated by Dr. Oscar B. Hunter, Jr.,
President of the College of American Pathologists.

3) Morgan, Russell H., MD, Professor of Radiology, School of
Medicine and Professor of Radiological Sciences, School of
Hygiene and Public Health, The Johns Hopkins University,
Baltimore, MD, nominated by Dr. Lincoln Gordon, President of The
Johns Hopkins University.

4) Mortiz, Alan R., MD, Professor of Pathology, Case Western
Reserve University, Cleveland, OH and former Professor of
Forensic Medicine, Harvard University, nominated by Dr. John A.
Hannah, President of Michigan State University.

Bruce Bromley, a member of the New York Bar who had been
nominated by the President of the American Bar Association and
thereafter requested by the Attorney General to act as legal
counsel to The Panel, was present throughout The Panel's
examination of the exhibits and collaborated with The Panel in
the preparation of this report.

No one of the undersigned has had any previous connection
with prior investigations of, or reports on this matter, and each
has acted with complete and unbiased independence, free of
preconceived views as to the correctness of the medical
conclusions reached in the 1963 Autopsy report and Supplementary
Report.

PREVIOUS REPORTS

The Autopsy Report stated that X-rays had been made of the
entire body of the deceased. The Panel's inventory disclosed
X-ray films of the entire body except for the lower arms, wrists
and hands and the lower legs, ankles and feet.

The Autopsy Report also described the decedent's wounds as
follows:

"The fatal missile entered the skull above and to the right
of the external occipital protuberance. A portion of the
projectile traversed the cranial cavity in a posterior-anterior
direction (see lateral skull roentgenograms) depositing minute
particles along its path. A portion of the projectile made its
exit through the parietal bone on the right carrying with it
portions of cerebrum, skull and scalp. The two wounds of the
skull combined with the force of the missile produced extensive
fragmentation of the skull, laceration of the superior sagittal
sinus and of the right cerebral hemisphere.

The other missile entered the right superior posterior
thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the
suprascapular and the supraclavicular portions of the base of the
right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the
right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the
right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap
muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and
made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as
can be ascertained, this missile struck no bony structures in its
path through the body.

In addition, it is our opinion that the wound of the skull
produced such extensive damage to the brain as to preclude the
possibility of the deceased surviving this injury."

The medical conclusions of the Warren Commission Report (p.
19) concerning President Kennedy's wounds are as follows:

"The nature of the bullet wounds suffered by President
Kennedy and the location of the car at the time of the shots
establish that the bullets were fired from above and behind the
Presidential limousine, striking the President as follows:

President Kennedy was first struck by a bullet which entered
at the back of his neck and exited through the lower front
portion of his neck, causing a wound which would not necessarily
have been lethal. The President was struck a second time by a
bullet which entered the right rear portion of his head, causing
a massive and fatal wound."


INVENTORY OF MATERIAL EXAMINED

Black and White and Colored Prints and transparencies

Head viewed from above

#5(9JB), 8(7JB), 13(6JB), 16(10JB), 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37

Head viewed from right and above to include part of face, neck,
shoulder and upper chest

#3(14JB), 4(13JB), 11(6JB), 12(5JB), 26, 27, 28, 40, 41

Head and neck viewed from left side
#6(3JB), 15(4JB), 17(2JB), 18(1JB), 29, 30, 31

Head viewed from behind
#7(16JB), 14(15JB), 42, 43

Cranial cavity with brain removed viewed from above and in front
#1(18JB), 2(17JB), 44, 45

Back of body including neck
#9(11JB), 10(12JB), 38, 39

Brain viewed from above
#50, 51, 52

brain viewed from below
#46, 47, 48, 49

The black and white and color negatives corresponding to the
above were present and there were also seven black and white
negatives of the brain without corresponding prints. These were
numbered 19 through 25(JTB) and appeared to represent the same
views as #46 through 52. All of the above were listed in a
memorandum of transfer, located in the National Archives, and
dated Apr. 26, 1965.

X-ray Films

(The films bore the number 21296 and an inscription
indicating that they have been made at the US Naval Hospital,
Bethesda, MD on 11/22/63.)

Skull, A-P view
#1

Skull, left lateral
#2,3

Skull, fragments of
#4, 5, 6

Thoracolumbar region, A-P view
#7, 11

Chests, A-P view
#9

Right hemithorax, shoulder and upper arm, A-P view
#8

Left hemithorax, shoulder and upper arm, A-P view
#10

Pelvis, A-P view
#13

Lower femurs and knees, A-P view
#12

Upper legs, A-P view
#14


Bullets

CE 399--A whole bullet
CE 567--Portion of nose of a bullet
CE 569--Portion of base segment of a bullet
CE 840--3 fragments of lead

Motion Picture Films

CE 904--Zapruder film
CE 905--Nix film
CE 906--Muchmore film

Series of single frames (215 through 334) from Zapruder film

Clothing
CE 393--Suit coat
CE 394--Shirt
CE 395--Neck tie

Documents

The Warren Commission's Report and the accompanying volumes
of Exhibits and Hearings. (Study of these Documents was limited
to those portions deemed pertinent by The Panel.)

EXAMINATION OF PHOTOGRAPHS OF HEAD

Photographs 7, 14, 42, and 43 show the back of the head, the
contours of which have been grossly distorted by extensive
fragmentation of the underlying calvarium. There is an
elliptical penetrating wound of the scalp situated near the
midline and high above the hairline. The position of this wound
corresponds to the hole in the skull seen in the lateral X-ray
film #2. (See description of X-ray films.) The long axis of this
wound corresponds to the long axis of the skull. The wound was
judged to be approximately six millimeters wide and 15
millimeters long. The margin of this wound shows an ill-defined
zone of abrasion.

Photographs 5, 8, 13, 16, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36 and 37 show the
top of the head with multiple gaping irregularly stellate
lacerations of the scalp over the right parietal, temporal and
frontal regions.

Photographs 1, 2, 44 and 45 show the frontal region of the
skull and a portion of the internal aspect of the back of the
skull. Due to lack of contrast of structures portrayed and lack
of clarity of detail in these photographs, the only conclusion
reached by The Panel from study of this series was that there was
no existing bullet defect in the supraorbital region of the
skull.

Photographs 46, 47, 48 and 49 are of the inferior aspect of
the brain and show extensive deformation with laceration and
fragmentation of the right cerebral hemisphere. Irregularly
shaped areas of contusion with minor loss of cortex are seen on
the inferior surface of the first left temporal convolution. The
orbital gyri on the left show contusion with some underlying loss
of cortex. The sylvian fissure on the right side has been
opened, revealing a rolled-up mass of arachnoid and blood clot
which is dark brown to black in color. The mid-temporal region
is depressed and its surface lacerated. The peduncles have been
lacerated, probably incident to the removal of the contents from
the cranium.

Photographs 50, 51 and 52 show the superior aspect of the
brain. The left cerebral hemisphere is covered by a
generally-intact arachnoid with evidence of subarachnoid
hemorrhage especially over the parietal and frontal gyri and in
the sulci. The right cerebral hemisphere is extensively
lacerated. It is transected by a broad canal running generally
in a posteroanterior direction and to the right of the midline.
Much of the roof of this canal is missing, as are most of the
overlying frontal and parietal gyri. In the central portion of
its base, there can be seen a gray-brown, rectangular structure
measuring approximately 13 x 20 mm. Its identity cannot be
established by The Panel. In addition to the superficial and
deep cortical destruction, it can be seen that the corpus
callosum is widely torn in the midline.

These findings indicate that the back of the head was struck
by a single bullet travelling at high velocity, the major portion
of which passed forward through the right cerebral hemisphere,
and which produced an explosive type of fragmentation of the
skull and laceration of the scalp. The appearance of the entrance
wound in the scalp is consistent with its having been produced by
a bullet similar to that of exhibit CE 399. The photographs do
not disclose where this bullet emerged from the head although
those showing the interior of the cranium with the brain removed
indicate that it did not emerge from the supraorbital region.
Additional information regarding the course of the bullet is
presented in the discussion of the X-ray films.

Examination of photographs of anterior and posterior views
of thorax, and anterior, posterior and lateral views of neck
(Photographs 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 26, 27, 28, 29,
30, 31, 38, 39, 40, 41).

There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the
back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial
process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below
the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm.
below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can
also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an
anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to
compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the
horizontal plane of the body.

A well defined zone of discoloration of the edge of the back
wound, most pronounced on its upper and outer margins, identifies
it as having the characteristics of the entrance wound of a
bullet. The wound with its marginal abrasion measures
approximately 7 mm. in width by 10 mm. in length. The dimensions
of this cutaneous wound are consistent with those of a wound
produced by a bullet similar to that which constitutes exhibit CE
399.

At the site of and above the tracheotomy incision in the
front of the neck, there can be identified the upper half of the
circumference of a circular cutaneous wound the appearance of
which is characteristic of that of the exit wound of a bullet.
The lower half of this circular wound is obscured by the
surgically produced tracheotomy incision which transects it. The
center of the circular wound is situated approximately 9 cm.
below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a
preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which
produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the
left in its passage through the body.


EXAMINATION OF X-RAY FILMS

The films submitted included: an anteroposterior film of the
skull (#1), two left lateral views of the skull taken in slightly
different projections (#2 and 3), three views of a group of three
separate bony fragments from the skull (#4, 5 and 6), two
anteroposterior views of the thoracolumbar region of the trunk
(#7 and 11), one anteroposterior view of the right hemithorax,
shoulder and upper arm (#8), one anteroposterior view of the
chest (#9), one anteroposterior view of the left hemithorax,
shoulder and upper arm (#10), one anteroposterior view of the
lower femurs and knees (#12), one anteroposterior view of the
pelvis (#13) and one anteroposterior view of the upper legs
(#14).

Skull

There are multiple fractures of the bones of the calvarium
bilaterally. These fractures extend into the base of the skull
and involve the floor of the anterior fossa on the right side as
well as the middle fossa in the midline. With respect to the
right frontoparietal region of the skull, the traumatic damage is
particularly severe with extensive fragmentation of the bony
structures from the midline of the frontal bone anteriorly to the
vicinity of the posterior margin of the parietal bone behind
Above the fragmentation extends approximately 25 mm. across the
midline to involve adjacent portions of the left parietal bone;
below, the changes extend into the right temporal bone.
Throughout this region, many of the bony pieces have bean
displaced outward; several pieces are missing.

Distributed through the right cerebral hemisphere are
numerous small, irregular metallic fragments most of which are
less than 1 mm. in maximum dimension. The majority of these
fragments lie anteriorly and superiorly. None can be visualized
on the left side of the brain and none below a horizontal plane
through the floor of the anterior fossa of the skull.

On one of the lateral films of the skull (#2), a hole
measuring approximately 8 mm. in diameter on the outer surface of
the skull and as much as 20 mm. on the internal surface can be
seen in profile approximately 100 mm. above the external
occipital protuberance. The bone of the lower edge of the hole is
depressed. Also there is, embedded in the outer table of the
skull close to the lower edge of the hole, a large metallic
fragment which on the anteroposterior film (#1) lies 25 mm. to
the right of the midline. This fragment as seen in the latter
film is round and measures 6.5 mm in diameter immediately
adjacent to the hole on the internal surface of the skull, there
is localized elevation of the soft tissues. Small fragments of
bone lie within portions of these tissues and within the hole
itself. These changes are consistent with an entrance wound of
the skull produced by a bullet similar to that of exhibit CE 399.

The metallic fragments visualized within the right cerebral
hemisphere fall into two groups. One group consists of relatively
large fragments, more or less randomly distributed. The second
group consists of finely divided fragments, distributed in a
posteroanterior direction in a region 45 mm. long and 8 mm. wide.
As seen on lateral film #2, this formation overlies the position
of the coronal suture; its long axis, if extended posteriorly,
passes through the above-mentioned hole. It appears to end
anteriorly immediately below the badly fragmented frontal and
parietal bones just anterior to the region of the coronal suture.

The foregoing observations indicate that the decedent's head
was struck from behind a single projectile. It entered the
occipital region 25 mm to the right of the midline and 100 mm.
above the external occipital protuberance. The projectile
fragmented on entering the skull, one major section leaving a
trail of fine metallic debris as it passed forward and laterally
to explosively fracture the right frontal and parietal bones as
it emerged from the head.

In addition to the foregoing, it is noteworthy that there is
no evidence of projectile fragments in the left cerebral tissues
or in the right cerebral hemisphere below a horizontal plane
passing through the floor of the anterior fossa of the skull.
Also, although the fractures of the calvarium extend to the left
of the midline and into the anterior and middle fossa of the
skull, no bony defect, such as one created by a projectile either
entering or leaving the head, is seen in the calvarium to the
left of the midline or in the base of the skull. Hence, it is not
reasonable to postulate that a projectile passed through the head
in a direction other than that described above.

Of further note, when the X-ray films of the skull were
presented to The Panel, film #1 had been damaged in two small
regions by what appears to be the heat from a spotlight. Also, on
film #2, a pair of converging pencil lines had been drawn on the
film. Neither of these artifacts interfered with the
interpretation of the films.

Neck Region

Films #8, 9 and 10 allowed visualization of the lower neck.
Subcutaneous emphysema is present just to the right of the
cervical spine immediately above the apex of the right lung.
Also, several, small metallic fragments are present in this
region. There is no evidence of fracture of either scapula or of
the clavicles, or of the ribs or of any of the cervical and
thoracic vertebrae.

The foregoing observations indicate that the pathway of the
projectile involving the neck was confined to a region to the
right of she spine and superior to a plane passing through the
upper margin of the right scapula, the apex of the right lung and
the right clavicle. Any other pathway would have almost certainly
fractured one or more bones of the right shoulder girdle and
thorax.

Other Regions Studied
No bullets or fragments of bullets are demonstrated in
X-rayed portions of the body other than those described above. On
film #13, a small round opaque structure a little more than 1 mm.
in diameter, is visible just to the right of the midline at the
level of the sacral segment of the spine. Its smooth
characteristics are not similar to those of the projectile
fragments seen in the X-rays of the skull and neck.

EXAMINATION OF THE CLOTHING

Suit Coat (CE 393)

A ragged oval hole about 15 mm. long (vertically) is located
5 cm. to the right of the midline in the back of the coat at a
point about 12 cm. below the upper edge of the coal collar. A
smaller ragged hole, which is located near the midline and about
4 cm. below the upper edge of the collar, does not overlie any
corresponding damage to the shirt or skin and appears to be
unrelated to the wounds or their causation.

Shirt (CE 394)

A ragged hole about 10 mm. long vertically and corresponding
to the first one described in the coat, is located 2.5 cm. to the
right of the midline in the back of the shirt at a point 14 cm.
below the upper edge of the collar. Two linear holes 15 mm. long
are found in the overlapping hems of the front of the shirt in a
position corresponding to the place where the knot of the necktie
would normally be.

Tie (CE 395)

In the front component of the knot of the tie in the outer
layer of fabric, a ragged tear about 5 mm. in maximum diameter is
located 2.5 cm. below the upper edge of the knot and to the left
of the midline.


DISCUSSION

The information disclosed by the joint examination of the
foregoing exhibits by the members of The Panel supports the
following conclusions;

The decedent was wounded by two bullets, both of which
entered his body from behind.

One bullet struck the back of the decedent's head well above
the external occipital protuberance. Based upon the observation
that he was leaning forward with his head turned obliquely to the
left when this bullet struck, the photographs and X-rays indicate
that it came from a site above and slightly to his right. This
bullet fragmented after entering the cranium, one major piece of
it passing forward and laterally to produce an explosive fracture
of the right side of the skull as it emerged from the head.

The absence of metallic fragments in the left cerebral
hemisphere or below the level of the frontal fossa on the right
side together with the absence of any holes in it the skull to
the left of the midline or in its base and the absence of any
penetrating injury of the left hemisphere, eliminate with
reasonable certainty the possibility of a projectile having
passed through the head in any direction other than from back to
front as described in preceding sections of this report.

The other bullet struck the decedent's back at the right
side of the base of the neck between the shoulder and spine and
emerged from the front of his neck near the midline. The
possibility that this bullet might have followed a pathway other
than one passing through the site of the tracheotomy wound was
considered. No evidence for this was found. There is a track
between the two cutaneous wounds as indicated by subcutaneous
emphysema and small metallic fragments on the X-rays and the
contusion of the apex of the right lung and laceration of the
trachea described in the Autopsy Report. In addition, any path
other than one between the two cutaneous wounds would almost
surely have been intercepted by bone and the X-ray films show no
bony damage in the thorax or neck.

The possibility that the path of the bullet through the neck
might have been more satisfactorily explored by the insertion of
a finger or probe was considered. Obviously the cutaneous wound
in the back was too small to permit the insertion of a finger.
The insertion of a metal probe would have carried the risk of
creating a false passage in part, because of the changed
relationship of muscles at the time of autopsy and in part
because of the existence of postmortem rigidity. Although the
precise path of the bullet could undoubtedly have been
demonstrated by complete dissection of the soft tissue between
the two cutaneous wounds, there is no reason to believe that the
information disclosed thereby would alter significantly the
conclusions expressed in this report.

SUMMARY

Examination of the clothing and of the photographs and X-
rays taken at autopsy reveal that President Kennedy was struck by
two bullets fired from above and behind him, one of which
traversed the base of the neck on the right side without striking
bone and the other of which entered the skull from behind and
exploded its right side.

The photographs and X-rays discussed herein support the
above-quoted portions of the original Autopsy Report and the
above-quoted medical concludions of the Warren Commission Report.

WILLIAM H. CARNES, MD
RUSSELL S. FISHER, MD
RUSSELL H. MORGAN, MD
ALAN R. MORITZ, MD
 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
244. So you believe that in-house assassinations (Indira, Benazir, Anwar, e.g.) happen only elsewhere? OK
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 06:53 PM
Dec 2013

Mrdrboi

(110 posts)
251. I think Oswald shot JFK but I think it goes way deeper than that.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:05 PM
Dec 2013

I think Oswald and Jack Ruby were both gunmen to kill JFK. If Oswald could not take the shot due to line of sight Jack Ruby would take it. Ruby then killed Oswald so he silence him from talking.

Omaha Steve

(99,653 posts)
295. President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:57 PM
Dec 2013

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/summary.html

Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations of the U.S. House of Representatives
Summary of Findings and Recommendations

Findings in the Assassination of President Kennedy
Findings in the Assassination of Reverend King
Recommendations of the Select Committee on Assassinations


snot

(10,529 posts)
302. Pres. Obama recently appointed Cass R. Sunstein
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:32 PM
Dec 2013

to a committee charged with reviewing the NSA's surveillance practices.

In 2008, Sunstein co-authored a paper recommending that the government should infiltrate online fora, chat rooms, and real-life groups to try to covertly discredit "conspiracy theories."

Maybe when that sh*t stops, we can start believing what the government tells us.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
328. "Hello, I don't actually know what the HSCA said!"
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:21 AM
Dec 2013

You do realise that's what you're saying, right? They confirmed every major finding of the Warren Commission.

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1a.html

Their finding of "conspiracy" was based on "acoustical evidence" that's since been extensively and thoroughly debunked and shown not to be evidence at all.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/acoustic.htm
http://www.thekennedyhalfcentury.com/pdf/Kennedy-Half-Century-Audio-Research.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictabelt_evidence_relating_to_the_assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
349. "Hello, you don't understand our government nearly as much as you think you do", lol.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:35 AM
Dec 2013

You may be very trusting of your government, we're not always so trusting of ours.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
335. The general relative lack of interest in JFK and questions about the Warren Report
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:05 AM
Dec 2013

are due to the fact that the generation that lived through the assassination of Kennedy is older and has given up, and younger people really don't care about history all that much, not any history much less the history of their parents and grandparents.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
344. If there was a "general lack of interest in JFK and questions about the Warren Report" I doubt
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:56 AM
Dec 2013

this thread -- and all the others dealing with the assassination since last month -- would be nearly as long or as many.

I don't think the generation that lived through it, in the main, have "given up" -- I certainly haven't.

I think it's the younger people who don't remember, don't care about history, and basically just don't

care about the topic of JFK...He's ancient history to them.

They're entitled to their ignorance/indifference...They're not entitled to piss on the threads of the rest of us.

Just my take...

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
371. There is PLENTY of interest in both. It's just that modern forensics
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:55 PM
Dec 2013

and science buttresses what the Warren Commission concluded and what everybody, like it or not, has known all along since Oswald was arrested November 22, 1963, and Ruby two days later.

In another ten or fifteen years, the CT believers will likely be in the single digits. Those peddling CT for money should be shunned and ridiculed.

BTW, I DO remember the assassination.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
373. My theory is that Oswald did it, but that he was encouraged to do it by third parties whose
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:20 PM
Dec 2013

identities are generally unknown. If there was nothing to hide about the assassination, all of the documents would be available to historians and to the rest of us. That is not the case, apparently.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
357. I seeeee the light!
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:22 PM
Dec 2013

Hallelujah! The lone gunman/Warren commission thing makes perfect sense now! All doubts are put to rest! How could we have ever questioned anything?!

On the Road

(20,783 posts)
372. Methodical Refutation Always Seems to Take a While
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:54 PM
Dec 2013

That's one reason it's important to keep an open mind.

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