Unless I am using the navigator - 2 or 3 times a year.

in your credit cards.

The phone company can locate a phone based on the cell towers it attaches to and their signal strength.

When I go to visit people in the neighborhood, I walk, usually without my phone, also don't take the phone when walking the dog, don't take anything except poo bags and keys.

They'll factor that into their analyses, no doubt.

...frightening!

will pop by soon to explain how we want LE to have all this info, and that if we are not doing anything wrong like socializing,driving too slow,being at same location as "wrong" people,ect...we have nothing to worry about!!!

they could just send the police to round up people they don't like.
The last I knew, the government has to actually try people and present evidence when they do. Illegally obtained evidence can be thrown out by the judge or ignored by the jury. The "government" could violate every clause of the Constitution but the only sure solution is to have no government.

The only SURE solution is for the government to stop spying on us. You know it; I know it; everyone knows it. Period.

It's called the Bill of Rights for a reason, and we need to restore it. Gosh! See how easy that was? Much easier than getting rid of our government.

Nice try, though.

all governmental powers. I keep looking for that part of the bill of rights that says that the government cannot store any information that is already freely given to corporations.
All it takes is someone who has been harmed by the government "spying" to sue and the courts can decide on the interpretation of the bill of rights. If they decide your way, you can claim victory for your novel interpretation of your rights.

A government with no governmental powers is no government at all. Your point is lost with this argument.

And, since when did it become NOT a pervain of the Bill of Rights to protect my privacy from government intrusion, however that intrusion takes place (ie., through corporations or otherwise)?

Once again, you're point is lost and you are making no sense.

Read my reply to the original OP.
The invasion of your privacy did not happen except by the corporation (assuming you have a smart phone from them), it did not happen when the cell phone was off, and you knowingly bought and used a cell phone that "spied" on you. That would be funny if you weren't angry with the government about it.

AND, if the government had NOT made a deal with the cell phone company to get my information, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Your original reply makes as little sense as your previous replies.

The article is not only false but is ridiculous. You obviously have no idea about how gps and cell phones work.

If the government didn't need the cell phone company's permission to get this information, then they are directly violating my privacy rights. Once again, we are back to the Fourth Amendment. Your idea to dismantle the government, to strip it of any powers at all, smacks of Ron Paul.

it is tough for the government to use it.
If you believe what I said in any way gives credence to the premise of the article referenced in the OP, you are confused.

You are confused.

LOL

the best thing to do is use this:

and the sarcasm thingy assumes that the reader knows what sarcasm is. (yeah fyi that was sarcasm, or was it?)

There are bound to be people, even other than myself, who don't "get" your sarcasm. That's the point of the symbol.

I know that there are people who won't get even obvious sarcasm. There are lots of people.

The Snowden documents don't agree with the headline in the post. The article never claims that the NSA is spying on US citizens and they would need access to the cell towers to track in foreign countries,
The Guardian I'll ignore, they're invested in selling their creature, Snowden.
The Indiana story has nothing to do with tracking unless you think that there are NSA operatives with cell receivers following every cell phone around. I suspect they may not have enough personnel to do this.

to target you, they can. Say they use their facial recognition programs to recognized your face in a crowd at a protest? They can then target you, for future crimes.

Suppose they just want to shut you up? They can use all of this information PREVIOUSLY gathered, to target you.

This is not good.

"If they want to target you they can"
The facial recognition software would only recognize your face if "they" were looking for you. "They" wouldn't need it if "they" were just "recognizing" random people. So if you are targeted, it is because "they" are looking for you.
Most of us actually live places, use our real names for stuff like credit cards, social security, drivers license. "They" know where to find me and they still haven't come for me. I've never heard of anyone in the USA charged with "future crimes" (whatever you think that means).

That facial recognition software allows them to pinpoint you, and keep your image for future reference, cross reference it against driver's license records, etc. Then, they track your movements, etc. Got it now?

So "they" need to know where you have been that has a camera because you might commit an unspecified crime. "They" have all these cameras equipped with facial recognition software that reports to "them' your location. Then they tie it in with all the traffic cameras that are monitoring your car and the cell phone tower you are closest to.
It would be a lot easier and cheaper for "them" to just throw you in one of the secret prisons where all those other missing Americans must be held.
I hope you conquer your fears, unless you really are running from the law.

Please, go forth, and inform yourself, instead of levying personal attacks on those who are informed.

Those who are too craven to accept uncomfortable truths about our government, those who mewling at the feet of, and lick the boots of authority in order to make their worldview work out, these people scare me. They're very useful tools for the plutocrats destroying the nation, and they are to be reviled.

The truth about our government includes that NSA employs 35,000 people, best of luck using that to spy on the 6 billion (and rapidly increasing) people in the world.
You apparently don't know what craven means, you said I frightened you, scared you-that makes you craven not me. Before you choose to hurl insults instead of adding substance, you should look up what the insults mean.
I still want to know what future crimes are. I'd also like to know if you've been arrested for one in your imaginings.

Apparently, you think that we look at it as a real scenario. That's not the point.

You claimed

And TIA. Or have you forgotten that?

What you are completely missing, as well, is that they don't have to TRACK you. Don't you understand that? If they are collecting every single piece of data that you send out, anytime they want to TARGET you, they have what they want.

I googled TIA, the top entry was transient ischemic attack, followed by Telecommunication Industry Association. There were more entries, but I gave up after the first sixty or so.
You appear to now be claiming that somehow the US government is monitoring all our communications, all the time, That is even more ridiculous than the tracking claims.
Now the final claim is that "they" can target you. If they can "target" you, then "they" don't need to collect every piece of data you send out. They can just "target" you.
If you live in Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan, or another terrorist hiding ground with a weak government, you might want to stay away from Al Quaeda sympathizers.

This was achieved by creating enormous computer databases to gather and store the personal information of everyone in the United States, including personal e-mails, social networks, credit card records, phone calls, medical records, and numerous other sources, without any requirement for a search warrant.[6] This information was then analyzed to look for suspicious activities, connections between individuals, and "threats".[7] Additionally, the program included funding for biometric surveillance technologies that could identify and track individuals using surveillance cameras, and other methods.[7]

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office

You are woefully, and I think, willfully, misinformed.

The Total Information Office was defunded by Congress after one year That was ten years ago. That is in the Wickapedia article you cited but didn't bother to read.
The STASI actually did things to people. East Germany had mine fields and armed guards to keep the "citizens" from fleeing the prison which was the entire country. That regime was put in place by an invading army, it was held in place by the conquering power.
To compare that to the NSA's "ability" to track cell phones and license plates is delusional.

But apparently you're not. The TIA was renamed and it is now being implemented by the Obama administration.

And the Stasi collected dossiers on every single citizen, just like we're doing. If you don't think that we're actually DOING something with those dossiers, you also must be unaware of the Special Operations Division. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennifergranick/2013/08/14/nsa-dea-irs-lie-about-fact-that-americans-are-routinely-spied-on-by-our-government-time-for-a-special-prosecutor-2/

Like I said, you are willfully ignorant.

and that's why you selectively quoted from Wikipedia I guess you think that being deceptive adds to your credibility.
The article you have now linked provides this incredible claim

I'm sure he'd be pleased.

No one here is in the business of deceiving, except you and your apparent buddies at the NSA. You lie and make up new definitions of the word "collecting," and then lie to Congress and the American people about it. Sorry, but the lies won't get any traction from me, or most people on this board.

so whatever problems you have should be addressed to the author. It would probably help if you pais attention to the articles you read.
I didn't know that Snowden was part of the administration, I thought he was just wanted fugitive from justice.

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for sharing information, and that they created parallel investigations. They were not anonymous. In fact, the DOJ is now looking into this, because it is unconstitutional and requires lying about the chain of evidence. If you were the least bit informed, you would know this already, and not have to resort to cherry picking info.

This was even written up in the IRS manual: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/us-dea-irs-idUSBRE9761AZ20130807

Is that a good enough source for ya?

Once again, woefully, and willfully, misinformed.

I'm not going to look for evidence to support your claims. The evidence you have cited repeatedly contradicts what you say. If you thought I was informed, I would reevaluate my knowledge. I am proud that you don't.

It's really sad when someone will not take the time to support their own arguments. Not exactly "progressive."

I think that you know better, and that you know that you are putting forth falsehoods. But you apparently don't care.

Welcome to Ignore.

And makes me sick, to boot. Private companies can develop this software, too, and track employees, and determine if they are trying to unionize, and fire them BEFORE anything gets started? Or drive them out? I don't like it one bit.

It could also be used by some official at the FBI or CIA or NSA that has a PERSONAL agenda against someone, and they just want to set them up for a messed-up life.

always good to see a clear example of possible misuse laid out. Had a discussion with my better half, she said "but I'm inncocent, what could they do to me". I gave her some examples of her own opinions (political, religion) or traceable behaviour that would suffice to be able to pressure her into keeping quiet about issues she could speak up about, or to sling mud at her in a way as to make her incredible. She said she would still not feel "bad" about any of her opinions - none of it is secret, and she stands by it. I pointed out how her voice would be muted so she couldn't affect change should she wish to do so.

I hope this can open some eyes. The spatial and temporal analysis possibilities would also be invaluable to corporate intelligence operations.

any sense of privacy.

The cozy relationship between the state and the corporate class is an information highway in both directions maintained by favors and sweetheart deals. Any other conclusion at this point is naïve. The only ones not in on the exchange of knowledge and information is us. There's enough latitude built into the corporate surveillance system now to allow for absolutely any conceivable use or abuse by anyone with a fat bank account.

Consider also that:

Your cell phone my be activated as a listening device that functions even when the phone is turned off.

Every cell phone friend photo and selfie you upload to any public site may be run through advanced facial recognition software and placed in a data base for analysis.

This is what the Bush Administration trotted out as TIA - Total Information Awareness. It was shot down by congress and they bragged about going ahead with it anyway under another name.

Won't anyone think of the children?

First all cell phones do not have GPS.
Second, most cell phones cannot report your location except when in use and then only to a 911 operator. They can not.
Third, no commercially available cell phone can monitor your location when turned off.
Fourth, the only use that has ever been made of GPS phone data has been by certain very high end phone manufacturer(s), who used GPS data from their internet connected phones to target advertisements.

In fact, it suggests that you didn't bother reading the article which makes no mention of GPS tracking with cell phones. You aren't one of those security state tools are you?

The article, such as it is, refers to location data - probably triangulated using proximity to cell phone towers.

Please don't be a tool.

Thanks,

No cell phone carrier retains data on phone locations. They do not triangulate except when necessary due to use of 911 so the only data they would ever have had is which cell tower your phone can talk to.
I read the outrageously ignorant claims in the article. I'll bet the author doesn't even know how triangulation is done and isn't aware that three cell towers are required to triangulate. Three cell towers used to triangulate and some places have no coverage from any carrier. Three cell towers used, not to provide service to paying customers, but to track people. Sure, the NSA is omnipotent.

However it improves accuracy.

A single tower can locate a cell phone within a 120 degree cone leading away from the tower. This is still triangulation, however one of the lines of triangulation is estimated (direction). The base of the tower is one point, the direction can be determined from the antennae, and distance from the top of the tower can be estimated by the signal (think of it as a ping).

Two towers is better, and three is best. In rural environments, you most likely will only be in range of one or two towers. However if well covered more urban and suburban areas, odds are your are within range of at least three towers. I just randomly checked a rural area i drive through to get home and within 4 miles of a point on my ride there are 9 cell towers. I think that location can be pinpointed pretty accurately.

http://www.antennasearch.com

http://www.antennasearch.com/sitestart.asp?sourcepagename=reportviewer2&prevsessionidnum=473615505&prevordernum=1&previtemnum=1&sectionname=towerreview&pagename=towerreview&pagenum=1&cmdrequest=pagehandler

and obviously triangulation requires 3 points, just like a triangle has 3 points. There are rural and even suburban areas where there is no cellphone coverage, or spotty, particularly where there are hills. This is based on experience. The cell towers only listen for responses from there own customers, so the number of cell towers has little to do with the ability to track a particular phone.
The point is that the NSA does not track cell phones in the USA.

different modulation schemes. Your cellphone does too (some can use both)
Verizon and uses CDMA modulation while AT&T uses GSM. Even then, the cell tower will only communicate with your phone if there is an agreement between the carriers. They cannot track you if your phone does not show coverage, at all.
GPS is required for accurate tracking and the signal strength is a poor substitute for it.
They can't locate you at all if you turn your phone off. If you are one of those who think "they" keep your cell phone on, wrap your phone in aluminum foil when you are not using it.
Could anyone really believe that the NSA tracks 300 million cell phones and 6 billion phone calls a day, in the USA, using 35 thousand employees? I wonder when they find the time to actually do what they are supposed to and spy outside the US.
If you are wanted for a crime or if there is a warrant issued allowing you to be monitored and if a police agency decides to invest the time and effort, any particular cell phone can be tracked in the USA. It can probably even be listened to, in spite of encryption.
This is not close to the tracking everyone meta data garbage.

attention to any particular cell phone or not. That information can be saved and passed along. GPS is not required for 3 or more cell towers to locate a cell phone to with in a reasonable distance. All GPS does is fine tune the procedure. Not everyone, or every cell phone, everywhere is being tracked. That is way too much information to handle at the current time.
Some phones do not really turn off. They are still in listening mode. These phone can be made to silently respond to certain commands. All those people on TV and in the movies, smashing cell phones, do have a basis in fact.

Cell towers are broadly directional. That allows them to handle more cell traffic. Couple this with signal strength and yes, they can locate you with in a few hundred feet quite easily.

If you have no coverage on your cell phone, no cell site can hear you. It doesn't matter who the tower belongs to, it cannot hear you so it doesn't know where you are. All commercially available phones in the USA turn off. They do not listen, there is no basis in fact, the movies that show this are fiction.
Knowing signal strength of the phone is only possible in the case of CDMA when using a single tower. The GSM phones use TDMA and while they do adjust their receivers to compensate for strength at the receiver, it cannot determine at what power the cell phone is broadcasting. A second tower is necessary to know where in the cell coverage the cell phone is located.

All cell towers have to listen to ALL cell phones to know which ones to pay attention to. Otherwise how would it know your phone is with a competitive service and then ignore it? The very fact it received a signal from any phone, certain information can be recorded. Time, service provider, signal strength and a whole bunch of other information. The tower just does not process the call. The tower's owner can then use this information for say, marketing purposes, or even, heaven forbid, improving their own services.

Your cell phone (only when it is turned on) does the listening for the cell service. Then it announces itself to the tower. You don't really think that cell phones are just randomly saying hello, hello, anybody there. That would take down batteries pretty quickly.

You do not understand how the cell system works. The phone does announce itself about once every minute. If two or more towers hear the same phone, the tower with the strongest signal acknowledges that phone. If you move closer to another tower, then that tower with the stronger signal, takes control. If the signal from the tower is strong, the phone cuts back its transmit power to save battery power. if the cell tower signal goes weak, then the phone increases its transmit power to maintain good communications. It is the phone that initiate the communication, when it recognizes a cell signal.

All cell towers DO listen for all cell phone signals in the area. They, the towers receiving the phone signal, decide among themselves, which tower will communicate with the phone, depending on signal strength. i.e., the towers talk among themselves and make decisions, as part of their normal operation.

cell phone first? How about when the phone is turned on? The tower can't. No way. It would have to go through the entire list of all the hundreds of millions of possible cellphones to do that. The phone has to broadcast its attention code first.
The cell phone keeps trying to find a cell tower to connect to. The cell phone initiates the connection, not the cell tower.

Wrap your phone in aluminum foil and see how long the battery lasts. If it just sat there listening for a cell tower, then the battery would last a long time. But the phone will be trying to contact a cell tower and it can't, it would keep trying at full transmit power, till the battery died. sometimes in only a few hours, instead of the normal week or even longer it would normally take, for a phone that is on, but not in use to deplete its battery.

After the cell phone hears the announcement from the tower, then and only the does it communicate. That isn't rocket science. If the cell phone is on it listens for IT'S carrier. It LISTENS for it's carrier--not any random cell--IT LISTENS FOR IT":S CARRIER's CODE--IT only replies when it hears it's code. There are two steps here, just two, and they go in one order.
They do not LISTEN when they are turned off. The aluminum foil was to allow paranoids to be certain that it was really off.
Since the phone does not transmit anything until it HEARS IT"S CARRIER'S CODE, it won't deplete the battery any more than it does when turned on and not in use.

Why not tell us your credentials and how you know exactly what technology is and isn't being used for surveillance these days. Your knowledge of extra-legal intelligence gathering in the U.S. must be vast.

There is nothing ignorant about projecting the law enforcement use of so called location data. The source of data is less the point here than the potential misuse of it. That's obvious to most people but not obvious to you.

As far as that's concerned, there are cameras installed on nearly every intersection in most cities now. This, combined with license plate readers used by the police as they patrol, could also be the source of the so called "position data" this article talks about.

Your point about GPS' in the phone came out of left field. The article stands.

cell phone data. So I guess that this is not the beginning of his post.

Last edited Sat Dec 14, 2013, 11:11 PM - Edit history (1)

- a little overbearing and superior maybe, but I chalk that up to possible inexperience communicating with people.

Do you have any friends? Are you young? Still in college maybe? I'm guessing, because you seem to have an agenda all your own - not particularly plugged into the wider issues here.

Nothing in this article is either stupid or too silly to bother with. But if you really feel that way, maybe you should climb back on your Big Wheel and get peddling along. You're wrong to attempt shutting down this thread.

You have said is half-truths or completely incorrect so i question your agenda on this board.

My credentials ...I am a telco provisioner for a living...AND I have worked in one of the main E911 centers in Denver for all 911 cell service... So what I tell everyone is absolute FACT since I do all of this for a living...

1. Not all cell phones have GPS..yes this is true BUT...ALL cell phones have UNIQUE ICCID's on their sim cards.. These Unique ID's are sent as pings to towers and can be correlated to the subscriber Name and then cross referenced to their home address ect...they can also be location "pin pointed" by ONE cell tower within a 300 foot radius of the signal received. 25 feet if three towers can ping the ICCID.

2. The hello/keepalive pings the cells do randomly every 60 seconds gives approximate location via signal strength to the towers AND the corresponding towers within a CELL Field THEN correlate location...EVERY TIME...This data in and of itself is not kept by us but CAN be if we are requested via subpoena from ANY law enforcement request by a judge. IN english...if I am asked to track your phone...I Track your phone...or if someone dials 911 the recording begins and ALL towers in a FIELD will start tracking location until told to stop...

There are others tapped DIRECTLY into our systems since 2006 so that they don't have to have a subpoena for general tracking any more; unless they are then building a case and then they go back request we legally start tracking so that there is a warrant and paper trail...retroactively covering their asses dotting their i's and crossing their T's...

This in itself tells you that if I type in your ICCID I can track you all the time if I have access to the carrier network...and I do...and I can...

If the phone is off you cant be tracked...well yes and no...Most people do not realize there is a difference between shutting OFF your phone and closing the lid or it going to sleep...

IF a phone is powered on...it still sends out a ping packet causing a location and correlation between cell towers...this is why you flip or swipe on your phone and you can dial right away...not waiting for cell connectivity all the time...

IF the phone is shut off there is no location keep alive packets. unless it is a cheap knock off that never actually Powers off and yes...there are some phones like that...mostly fake name brands that you buy real cheap...on and those disposable phones you hear about...yep they were programed never to be completely off...so yes, you DO have to remove the battery from disposable phones...

Now here is the nasty part...

ALONG with my tower ping reply is the confirmation codes that accepts your ICCID ping request. We can and have under request of police turned ON as in opened the call channel on a phone to listen in to what can audibly be heard. This used to be done ONLY when there was a subpoena related to a kidnapping case...it has LONG since been expanded to whatever a judge will sign...and we have to go along with a signed order...that is...IF we are asked to do it and they dont do it themselves...again, our telco service has had a hook from various government agencies into our phone switch since 2006 so heck they can do it without our knowledge now...And there is not a damn thing we can do about it...Originally the Telcos fought it in 2005 but there was no stopping it.

Oh and finally...you claim the GPS has never been used except for commercial advertisement?
What can I say to that except your full of shit. GPS has been used by law enforcement since 2006...

Oh yeah by the way, ever heard of "Where you at" from Sprint and T-mobile? allowing you to know where all your friends are located all the time by ICCID? Or how about google plus? I believe they have started offering the same service.

I could go on and on by why bother...I don't know your agenda and I really dont care...

...look like that and all of my stops are at bars which are surrounded by bars!

They could find someone using their cell tower location. If they can't get a GPS lock on their target, they could simply have a drone drop a nuclear bomb on the cell tower. Assuming a high enough yield, that bomb would almost certainly get their intended target, either with the shock wave or with a fatal dose of radiation.

Also, I have determined based on my own experience that the government knows where I work and live. They force me to send in information every year, so it is impossible for me to keep my whereabouts to myself. Once they know where I work and live, again, I am vulnerable to nuclear attack at the whim of the government.

My neighbors, friends, and other people I meet also violate my privacy constantly by recognizing my face. Any one of them can know who I am simply by seeing the light coming from my face and searching their internal mental databases. Then, again, they can report me to the government for nuclear annihilation or simply take me out themselves with other government issued ordnance.

Most of us are worried about governmental overreach in the name of combating "terra." You seem to have more of a personal little hell that seems much worse. Might I suggest that you move to Montana.

or not

Let me know when they get all the law breakers out of government.

still in place, just waiting for me to resume my other identity and life.

I'm gonna go where everybody knows my name, and it ain't the one the banksters, corporations, the government, and the spooks know.