I personally also feel that the term "sexual harassment" should be reserved for more mature feelings, but there's so much wrong with what you've written. He didn't just "interact" with the little girl. He harassed her repeatedly. He forced kisses on her repeatedly after he said no repeatedly. He corralled her into a section of the playground and restricted her movement. He wouldn't allow her to play with other children. While I wouldn't use the term "sexual harassment," he did something wrong. If he was failed, it was by his mother who encouraged him by calling it cute and telling him they were boyfriend and girlfriend.

No one says any affection is wrong, but what he did is wrong. And try having empathy for this little girl and think of what school was like for her if you're up on empathy.

"The risks have become to high for males to associate with females now" = bullshit. "It has reached a tragic level" = bullshit.

when I used to chase a girl in grade school on the playground joking stating I wanted to kiss her..she would run away and say "get away from me ugly face" with a laughing smirk on her face..what does that mean? I never could catch her and never wss able to kiss her. But we were reading buddies in grade school in 1st grade.

Context is everything and trying to impose adult world views on a child's world is wrong and lacking empathy of the highest level. They are not at that stage to understand the complexities of sexuality yet.

The reason why we are failing our younger males is more opting for pornography now over a real female because we teach them at a young age all the wrong lessons. The ramifications are staggering and indeed tragic which is why I am surprised many people can't make the connection yet.

Put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. They will not be missed.

The girl you were teasing apparently was having fun, judging by the laughing smirk.

This girl had repeatedly told the boy firmly not to kiss her anymore, and the school had told him, too.

Also, no one's making a criminal case of the matter and it won't follow the boy around forever. The only reason this got blown into something big is because his mother made a public issue of it.

That little innocent boy kept sexually harassing that little girl, by REPEATEDLY kissing her and keeping her from playing with other children. That little girl REPEATEDLY told her teacher about it, OTHER KIDS also reported this "innocent" behaviour to the teacher. School officials tried to stop this repeatedly, including using in-school suspension. The liitle innocent boy refused to stop harassment. Likely thanks to the stellar parenting he was receiving at home.

Sexual harassment remains sexual harassment regardless if one comprehends that what they are doing is wrong.

Now, where are your tears for the little girl who was harassed and likely will need counselling herself?

pretend to join the rest of us who are appalled by those who ignore the fact that an adolescent brain (let alone a six-year old's) is not yet fully developed.
I absolutely sympathize with the poor child who was harassed, but the blame belongs to the boy's mother. He followed the cues of the dominant female figure in his life. She should have her ass kicked. Instead, a pre-adolescent kid has a sex jacket.

but. i do put it all on the mom. she is certainly not the hero some want to present. i feel she harmed her child. taught him the very worse. did not serve him well. did not do her job. everything about her parenting lacks. i do put it ALL on her shoulders. so in essence, i agree with you. abso fuckin lutely

Also, I should not have said that mom needs to "have her ass kicked". Obviously I meant it metaphorically, but violence against women is a tragic reality, and I should have found a different way to express my disdain for the boy's mother.

physical or emotional manner. but... i see abuse from parent more on this end, with the social/economic environment i am in. and i put it up there with abuse as any other kind. we have a job. this woman fails. these failures is a lifetime for a child. many having to relearn and undo in their later teens and twenties, causing a struggle that did not have to be.

We are talking about school record here. While he might not comprehend that he is sexually harassing that little girl, his behaviour is still a sexual harassment, not regular bullying.

His parents are definitely responsible for his behaviour and if it was up to me they would be charged. Whatever treatment that boy needs is up to appropriate specialists to decide.

Regardless what they decide to do to correct his behaviour, that little girl MUST have safe and secure environment. If that means someone has to supervise that boy at all times, than it should be done. If they can't do that, he must be removed from that school.

thanked seabeyond for making me aware of that fact; you show up with a request for me to dial down the melodrama.
Please, see your physician immediately. Ask him or her for irony supplements.

his mothers cues? Maybe he is following the cues of the dominant male in his life? Hell how do you know that this boy isn't sexualized at a young age? He was told no and to stop by the girl involved and numerous adults. He had been punished before for the same actions. Hopefully he learns and someone starts an investigation as to why he thinks it is alright to push himself physically on another against their will.

the youngster had been warned repeatedly to leave the girl alone.
But FUCK YEAH, let's start an investigation right fucking NOW as to how a six year old who was receiving no guidance at home, made repeated bad decisions. Or better yet, let's just string the little fucker up!

dominate male in his life. I agree mom's isn't helping by making excuses. As for an investigation, that would be for the boy's sake. Not mom's, not the girl, but for the boy. If he is sexualized at 6 years old then something is going on that shouldn't be and the boy might be the one at the most risk. Kids act out what they know and this boy may of been molested or being groomed to be. So fuck yeah, someone with training needs to investigate what is going on in this boy's life. I've worked with kids that have been molested and you wouldn't believe how they can act out what they've experienced. First all we had was the mother of the boy's side of the story. Now we have the mother of the girl's side and the schools. Something is wrong when a 6 year old is a bully and forcing himself on a girl in spite of having been told to stop and punished for it already.

He is six. How on earth can it be SEXUAL harassment? I agree it is harassment, even if in his mind it was innocent, but not sexual. That's a view imposed by adults.. the school administrators, the girl's mother, and others. Calling it sexual harassment says more about the mental state of those using such language than it does about the actual situation.

What HE understands or doesn't understand, doesn't change the nature of what he is doing. It's gender based, it's highly inappropriate touching, it's forceful. It's a sexual harassment. Read the definition of it in my post down this thread, or Google it.

I sincerely hope this child doesn't know what 'sexual' means, but given that this was far from a 'one off', that he refused to stop even after in-school suspension, and that his mother lies on National TV by presenting it as 'BF & GF cute and innocent game', I would hope appropriate authorities look at what is going on in that family. I hope as hell for his sake that he wasn't abused himself or witnessed abuse, because what he is doing is far from normal behaviour.

Also, where did you get it from that it was girl's mother who introduced it as a sexual harassment?

I did read your definition of it. Obviously this was a repeated problem with this boy, but that does not make it sexual, it makes it harassment / possibly bullying. The school as much as admitted that it's not "sexual" harassment when they came to their senses and relabeled it misconduct. Even with the mother presenting it as BG & GF, in the kids' minds there's nothing sexual about it unless adults make it sexual somehow. The boy's behavior isn't acceptable, and I hope the school and parent(s) (where's the dad in all this??) figure out an approach that works for the girl and that stops the boy from acting this way in the future - in a healthy constructive way.

"Also, where did you get it from that it was girl's mother who introduced it as a sexual harassment?" I think I was referencing some previous comments along those lines.

If I was told that girl was harassed/bullyed I would assume she was physically and/or verbally assaulted, like hitting, calling names, etc.

When I am told that actually she was prevented from engaging with other kids, kissed without consent by the same boy who even had a fight with another boy over her, it starts to look very different. When I am also told this boy refuses to stop what he is doing, red flags go up. When I realise he is 6, and his mother thinks it's "cute", AND also believes it's appropriate to drug this case to National TV, AND discloses his school record to general public, AND introduces her 6yo boy to the concept of sexual harassment, AND keeps encouraging his behaviour by LYING and making excuses for the him... Sorry, something is terribly wrong here.

Never mind that average 6yo is perfectly capable of understanding simple concepts like 'No', 'Stop it', 'Don't touch another person without their permission'.

This IS a sexual harassment, regardless of what he does or doesn't understand. It's about him establishing control over the girl and doing what he wants to do because she is a girl and because he 'likes her'.

but inserting sexuality into this is imposing an adult view on the mind of a child. I disagree with the mother. It's not cute. Her encouraging it is abhorrent. But: even if he is explained what sexual harassment is, he still won't "get it". He's six. Think about when you were six. when I was six, I thought I could control lightning with my thoughts.

It's not the boy's fault his mother's nuts. The boy is just that: a boy. He needs boundaries, no excuses, and consequences, clearly. I hope the school can persuade the mother to improve on that.

"It's about him establishing control over the girl and doing what he wants to do because she is a girl and because he 'likes her'." Yes, I agree with you here, but that still in no way makes it sexual. Do you think six year olds are thinking about sex? I try to think back to when I was that age, and I have a six year old myself, and it's preposterous to imagine.

conversation about boundaries and unwanted touching. of course he would not understand sexual harassment, hence, no one told him he had that as a descriptive in his file until.... his mother told him. she gave that to her son. there would be no reason at all for the kid to even be a part of the conversation, but the MOTHER walked him into the adult conversation.

Unfathomable for a parent to talk to their kid that way. Clear boundaries in terms he can understand is what's needed here.

Context is everything - and it seems what you did was NOT what this boy did.

Like the poster you responded to, I wish they would not have spoken of sexual harassment, but simply called it bullying. It is clear that the school called the parents in and it seems they were not helpful in stopping his bad behavior. The school MUST provide a safe experience to its students and that includes the little girl, who you seem to have no sympathy for. Her rights to not have to be bullied exceed his right to act out. The school had to do anything they could to end his actions - and his mother clearly made the situation worse.

The lesson he missed was less about women than respecting others. But, even if it was limited just to girls, don't you see he needs to learn why this is inappropriate? Otherwise, how does he change before he is older and more dangerous?

they used time out. didnt stop. the had inschool detention, didnt stop. then they suspended a couple days, probably to get the moms attention to get on it.

The school is actually doing this boy a favor by pressing the issue when he is 6 - particularly as his mother is not backing the teacher up.

it's that if he acts cute/adorable, manipulates public opinion in his favor, he can behave with impunity.

Being chased by a boy, I mean. It was AWFUL. It is not cute; it is not a joke to your victims, whatever their age. Women are socialized to laugh it off, not stand up for themselves. She should have knocked you on your ass, not that that's a good solution either.

from behind and tried to get his hand inside my pants. I was about 8-9. Guess which one of us almost got kicked out of school? That little arsehole knew damn well what he was doing was wrong and very inappropriate. I wasn't the only girl he tried to do it, just the first one to fight back.

is a good thing and will not harm them in anyway.

But you keep on crying about how unfair it all is.

just because you have an example of something doesn't mean it was the same.

and taken it from there.

I'd also take a close look at this kid's home life, he's got to be learning abusive behavior like isolating pretty close to home.

and his mom was encouraging it. He probably would have stopped pretty quickly without his mom's encouragement. She thought it was cute and told him so.

OTOH if she encouraged it and thought it was cute, maybe it's because that's normal for her? I don't know much about abuse and I hate to speak about areas where I have little knowledge. I know some kids behave like this without abuse because I've seen it - my own daughter got possessive with a boy she had a crush on, but it was easily handled. Others have said in threads that it could also be a sign of abuse and I assume they know more, so I'll agree with that potential based on their statements.

And what males are opting out of participation in society? Less than 19% of people in Congress are women.

I hope this satisfies your question.

It's still an unsupported assertion.

No pity for the little girl who was bullied and isolated repeatedly by the harrassing behavior of the little boy? How with this effect her future participation in society?

The little girl suffers along with the little boy because teach them all the wrong lessons as children. Children are not born with sexuality, because sexuality is a cultural construct more so than a biological one now. And culture is only learned. In my honest opinion we are failing the younger generations about sexuality.

Federal education code: http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/sexhar00.html

And that little boy probably yes, learned his annoying and bullying behavior from an adult, well before he duplicated it on his own victim. Doesn't mean it just gets chalked up to "boys will be boys". I'm thrilled the school stood up for the girl he was bullying. I hope his home life gets some scrutiny too.

to young children I think is absurd but you are entitled to your bizarre opinion.

Well good thing you don't work in a school. Otherwise you'd have to explain why you thought you were above the law by enabling bullies.

Police officers routinely let little children go that shoplift without charging them anything. They call in the parents and tell them what they did wrong and they move on. I guess these police officers are above the law according to you as well? Or maybe they have the empathy to understand that children must be taught what is right and wrong but it doesn't have to be so harshly like in the adult world.

Trying to apply your black and white adult world view on children is sad frankly.

you got what you wanted.

Have fun with that.

so of course it applies to children.

or going out looking to meet them.

one of their friends.

i am hardly concerned with the conclusion of the OP

and persists in actions that the recipient and adults dislike there is something behaviourally wrong with the child and his family. Or doesn't the other child matter because she's a girl?

Where are your tears for the other child?

but to call this sexual harassment is wrong on so many levels.

Now start crying for the girl - or are boys the only children worth caring about?

The labeling would have been for internal use so that if the behavior didn't change they would have supporting documentation for further actions.


The purpose of suspensions is to get the attention of inattentive parents; which it did, and exposed the source of the problem.

it just saddens me to see this unfold. But worse people defend such charges to be leveled at a little boy.

The boy was abusive and out of control. He was harassing and bullying at best and sexually knowledgeable at worst and needed to be restrained from continuing his behaviour.

and that darn near every feminist and some non-feminists on these threads have rung that warning bell in this case doesn't register with you?

This is why some of us thought the school was right to label his behavior sexual harassment - if he had been pinching her or tossing spitwads at her, that would have been bullying. Those of us who teach, however, know that when a child starts behaving in a sexualized manner (not sexual, but in a way that would be sexual if he or she was much older) and disregarding of boundaries, that is a huge warning sign that something might be wrong. This is because abused children know things that ordinary children do not - they have had their own boundaries overstepped, and they have had to do things no children should have to do. A boy kissing a girl on the cheek is extremely innocent, and something he has seen at home - his dad kissing his mom, or even his mom kissing him. But to refuse to stop when asked to repeatedly? Might still be innocent, but should other indications crop up later, they could have looked at his record, and realized that something was really wrong in this boy's home life.

As intaglio posted, in the worst case scenario, this boy has learned too much about the relationship between boys and girls at home, and that is behind his behavior. I really, really hope he does it just because his mom thought it was cute and encouraged his behavior because of that. I really, really hope that is it.

show how important, for the care of this boy, it is to be honest with this subject instead of blindly defending with "boys will be boys"/normal behavior.

you are absolutely right. and this is NOT an attack on a boy. it is responsible adults demanding the child be taken care of and awareness be top on the list. not a bunch of people not in the know throwing out shit for some agenda, or battle they perceive. this is an indicator that might possible be protective of the child, too.

it is something we have not even gotten to much, because we are so busy addressing the very beginning of the conversation, with this behavior.

good post. thank you

It's sick to imagine that any 6 year old is/should be aware that kissing another child his/her own age is sexually knowledgeable. Children see parents smooch, hug ... they experience affection at home. This child's problem was not respecting boundaries ... that this was even written up in the first place as sexual harassment blows my mind.

about sex, and about abuse than quite a few grownups do. That is sad, and sick, but not acknowledging it ever happens is just ignorance.

You melodramatic fool

I gave a range in my judgement and you then decide that I meant something different. The simple truth is that it would be worse if it was sexual because it would mean the boy was abused or even that there was some mental or physical deficit driving his behaviour.

Are you saying if there was a sexual element to the boys behaviour that it would not be worse? Or that abused children do not copy the practises visited upon them?

What is outrageous is that as far as you are concerned, the boy is the one "suffering" but the girl, , "Meh, she's only a Girl,"

Talk about delusions of grandeur.

Touching someone without consent is wrong. That's a lesson a six year old can learn. But when some insist on not learning it well into adulthood, that's dangerous. Clearly some on this board consider consent irrelevant. Those are people that do need to opt out of contact of women. When they act on their fucked up view of sexuality, it's a felony. By the way, that's only one of the reasons a responsible parent teaches a child it's not okay to touch someone who doesn't want it. The other reason is that children who don't respect others' boundaries are unlikely to understand why their own boundaries should be respected, which makes them vulnerable to abuse. The fact the boy in question repeatedly touches girls after being told no makes me think that his own boundaries might have been violated so often that he doesn't understand how to respect them in others. Anyone who pretends to care about boys should be concerned about that.

I still am not quite sure what you mean by this:

is in making a big deal of the "sexual" component.

It was chronic bullying, plain and simple, and should be treated with the same approaches you would use for any kind of bullying.

I do think that if a parent was actually encouraging the behavior, as seems to be the case, it would be analogous to a parent who teaches their kid to fight and pick on other kids, and that too should be addressed. I think it calls more for education and possibly therapy than for punishment, and the victim too should be assessed for psychological damage.

where a lot of this comes from. By characterizing her son and the girl as "boyfriend and girlfriend" she herself introduced the concept that it was sexual in nature.

to the point of wanting to put 6 year-olds on sex offender registries.

I'd say the mother in this case has some serious issues around sexuality, but it makes no sense whatsoever to treat the kid as a sexual predator.

I think the boy's behavior was placed in a "box" in large part because it was originally defended by the mother in those terms. I think it was bullying, too. But I think there's a need for little boys to be taught to respect girls who don't want their "affection." It's important that they know early on that such behavior is not OK, even if some adults push to say it was just "boys being boys." NOT OK.

I do think the mom is nuts.

Ant I don't think bullying or harassment is tolerable regardless of the ages or gender permutations of the bullies and their victims.

I'm just glad to see that the school authorities didn't blow it up into something that it was not.

they had labeled it bullying too. That way, the first time he kissed ie: touched her, it would have been an automatic removal. The boy was given a learning curve to adjust his behavior.

Instead his mother encouraged it by claiming boyfriend and girlfriend and she "wanted it" The mother went to the media and used sexualized language. If the mother continues down this path of parenting she will have a whole lot of problems with her son when he hits his teen years. An area of concern for me is that the boy's mother downplayed this problem and said the boy has also been in trouble for "rough housing" I suspect she also downplayed that problem.

I get that the term sexual harassment is a term commonly used for adult behavior. By legal definitions it is what the child did. Intent has no bearing on the usage of the term. The school used the term to convey his behavior for internal use only. That way if he exhibited the same behavior in the future, while at the school, they would know that it was not a one time thing. the child mimicked undesirable adult behavior. An uncommon one at that, so where did he learn it?

What would be a good term to describe, repeatedly kissing a girl and not letting her play with other kids, despite being told no?

georgie porgie syndrome?

WTH is the problem? The school personnel described his behavior in his SCHOOL record - the school record that goes nowhere else, and that he would never have known existed if his stupid mother hadn't told the whole world about it.

Whatever privacy you think might apply, I've seen things like this surface in all sorts of places in the criminal justice system.

criminal justice system if the boy later went on to be accused of a crime. It would likely not be admissible (due only to the age) but it would give investigators an indication of a pattern of behavior.

This is part of the reason that records are kept. Personally, I would rather that the 'sexual harassment' wording had been left to stand because it is much more accurate than a very generic 'misconduct'.

One way of getting it in is as part of expert testimony. Experts can rely on hearsay testimony & certain other rather surprising things in forming their opinions.

not that the file would be expressly referred to or quoted or that a jury would see it.

ETA - "admissible" IOW

The trier of fact has a right to inquire about the basis for the expert's opinion.

how many days (hours) does the typical rape trial last? How much expert testimony is introduced in the typical rape trial? How much time is allotted to digging deep down into the elementary school files of any rapist?

IF it were a high profile type trial, even then, do you really expect the jurors would/do get their hands on those elementary school files?

All I have to go on is 20 years of experience as a forensic psychologist. In probably 8 to 12 of the cases I'm involved in each year involving SVP commitments, there are typically 4 experts, 2 for each side, and the trials may last a week, with most of the time being taken up by expert testimony. And of course I've generally been engaged as an expert in a few other ordinary sex offense cases each year, conducting actuarial sex offender risk assessments that pretty much require one to take into consideration juvenile behavior and juvenile offenses. Other than that, I have no real experience or knowledge to bring to the topic.

because I'm just a layperson. I was asking you since you seem to be the one with the expertise.

The fact is, though, that when I worked as a Corrections psychologist for 13 years, I did something over 2,000 psych evaluations of criminal offenders. The vast majority of these did not require me to give testimony; the usual scene was for a Community Corrections Agent to be ordered by the judge to do a Presentence Investigation. This was SOP for most serious felonies. Agents would then often request a psych eval as part of their PSI. I would do the eval based on an interview, psych testing, and a review of available records. My report would just be submitted with the PSI. Very often there would be school records, juvenile offense records, etc. in the file. I had no responsibility to collect these records, but just used what was given me. However, the record search, as well as the rest of the process, was much more extensive in commitment proceedings, and those cases usually did require me to be on the witness stand. After I left the state 7 years ago, I "fell into" a private forensic practice, I guess because my work was reasonably well-known and respected in the local legal community, and I ended up getting involved almost exclusively in more high-profile and complex cases.

but, in a situation like this at the very young age of 6 (what, first grade) and the over all descriptive of sexual harassment, if a grown man was accused of say rape, really, reasonably, what would be the odds that if all school records were relatively clean, that a first grade descriptive would have any weight at all, if even seen?

and i really appreciate this info...

It would depend on how seriously the school took the kid's misbehavior, and what they did about it.

From the scoring rules of the Static-99R:

"Both adult and juvenile charges and convictions are counted….In cases where a juvenile is not charged with a sexual offense but was moved to a secure or more secure residential placement as the result of a sexual incident, this counts as a charge and conviction for the purpose of scoring Prior Sex Offenses.

"In some states, it is impossible for a juvenile offender to get a "conviction." Instead, the law uses the wording that a juvenile 'petition is sustained' (or any such wording). For the purposes of scoring the Static-99 this is equivalent to an adult conviction…."

But my original point was that having this information in the school record would be helpful to investigators IF in the future 'this' child were to be in the position of having been charged with a sexualized crime.

Now we're talking - apparently - about pre/post conviction, sentencing and (in your case) correctional evaluations.

Would you agree that these are completely separate realms regarding the 'use' of an accused sex offender's elementary school files?

in decisions about sentencing and commitment as an SVP (in those 20 states that have such laws).

Tell me more about how you see this information as useful to investigators.

There is now a fairly substantial scientific literature indicating that juvenile sex offenses (by which I mean those committed by people under the age of 18) are not predictive of adult sex offending, so I suspect that a record of a 6 year-old's "sexual" misbehavior might cause unsophisticated investigators to draw faulty conclusions about him in adulthood.

(and here I am talking about police investigators when a report has been made) to have as much information possible in order to rule-in or rule-out certain historical behavior patterns, if any.

Again, in this 'case' the more I think about it the more I am disappointed that the school changed their wording to anything other than sexual harassment. Because IF in the future this boy were to be charged with a sex crime, then investigators would see that he had been reprimanded for unwanted touching (and confinement) of a person who did not want or accept that touching (and confinement) in the past and clearly see that it was not a one-off 'transgression'.

If , on the other hand, he were to be charged with simple battery or even murder of another male (with no sexual component) then that mark in his elementary school record would be largely irrelevant.

i think it has to be more clear than just misconduct or bullying cause it is different. we can make it work with those words, but it is different. both in his favor and against. so i would have simply written the issue. documented when spoke to, what was said, each time, and consequences for behavior.

that's not the way The Law works.

Rarified, esoteric and limiting to the vast majority of the population who are subject to those words the law uses. And I'd dare say it's a set up...

misconduct and then explanation. that would work also. i do not really care. but... i think it cannot be lumped in with rough housing.

but it is a public school and public schools receive federal 'support' and are to certain degrees (depending upon the local board) subject to The Law.

There is a reason the Plain Language movement gets nowhere. But that's another thread unto itself

into a word that is not in the definition.

i very much use the word by definition, not the feel of it.

I only looked through 2 before being interrupted. Both of them had juvenile school records in them.

as a part of the sentencing process. I'm sure my files contain many other such records used for purposes such as making decisions about committing people as sexually violent persons. Many such commitments amount to life sentences.

Certainly I have offered many opinions based in part on juvenile records, including school records.

In a trial, would such a record as one this boy would have had, had the school not backed down, been relevant? Would it have been brought up? Do many of the perpetrators you offer opinions on have such incidents in their childhoods?

For actuarial purposes, it would not be uncommon for an expert to rely on a kid's behavior at 6. In fact, I would generally argue on the stand that doing so is inappropriate and misleading, but it would then be up to the trier of fact to decide who is right. A whole lot of bad science gets passed off as valid on the stand.

There is a widely used actuarial tool used for sexual recidivism risk assessment called the Static-99R. The kid's behavior could be counted as a risk factor on that scale and used against him.

"sealed" records actually are.

/nt

Canon City has a lot of right wing nuts that live there and over reaction is not uncommon.
The school board has decided to call it a inappropriate act. My concern is for the little boy and how he will deal with this idiocy. we must protect our children but please.